7. Is it OK to manipulate people for a good reason?

[Manuel]

7. How do you feel about the fact that Ystevan cloaks Serapia’s memories multiple times in an attempt to protect his people? Do you feel this is justified? Why or why not?

This question was provided by Corinna Turner.

[Manuel]

This question is similar to question 5, although in a lesser way. Manipulating someone's memories is not so bad as killing them, but in my opinion it is also wrong.

[Fonch]

Manuel wrote: "This question is similar to question 5, although in a lesser way. Manipulating someone's memories is not so bad as killing them, but in my opinion it is also wrong."

Here I disagree. There are times when it's necessary to manipulate a person's mind for their own good, and I'll take the case of someone who has joined a self-destructive cult. Here you have to counterprogram, and that happened in the 16th century when many people were drawn into Protestantism. It's legitimate in this case to counterprogram them to return them to the true faith.

[Manuel]

Fonch wrote: "Here I disagree. There are times when it's necessary to manipulate a person's mind for their own good..."

But would you justify, even in the case you mention, to eliminate part of the memories of those persons "for their own good," by performing a kind of mental lobotomy on them?

[Fonch]

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Here I disagree. There are times when it's necessary to manipulate a person's mind for their own good..."

But would you justify, even in the case you mention, to eliminate part of th..."


I don't think so, but counterprogramming sessions are necessary. Therefore, a person would be manipulated against their will.
Also, and for example, my father doesn't want me to enter the neighbor's house, so he lies to me or scares me by saying there are slugs in that house. It's done for a good cause. Although I think ordering me not to enter the neighbor's house would be enough.

[Fonch]

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Here I disagree. There are times when it's necessary to manipulate a person's mind for their own good..."

But would you justify, even in the case you mention, to eliminate part of th..."

I'm mentioning this case because it's interesting, and the Professor and I were involved. The Professor knows there's a novel I love called "The Devil's Whisper" by Miyuki Miyabe, and I thought it was a wonderful novel, but the Professor didn't like the ending because the protagonist manipulated the murderer into confessing to his crime. Something good was being done for the criminal, but his free will was violated, and that's what the Professor didn't like. I think it's the perfect example for this case.

[Manuel]

Fonch wrote: "Also, and for example, my father doesn't want me to enter the neighbor's house, so he lies to me or scares me by saying there are slugs in that house. It's done for a good cause. Although I think ordering me not to enter the neighbor's house would be enough."

There is a difference between education and manipulation. What you have said is an example. If a father lies to his son, he's manipulating, not educating. Although perhaps, if he just orders without (true) justification, that's not good education either. But it depends on the particular situation.

[Fonch]

Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "Also, and for example, my father doesn't want me to enter the neighbor's house, so he lies to me or scares me by saying there are slugs in that house. It's done for a good cause. Alth..."

I had scratched the neighbor's car, and my dad wanted to keep me out of trouble again. To add some context to the matter.

[Emmanuel]

I tend to agree with Professor Manuel, but this question is tough. Most authors say that, while it's never licit to sin, there are authorities like St. Hilary of Poitiers who thought it would be licit to lie on some occasions. On the other hand, St. Thomas and St. Augustine were certain that it's never licit to lie, since it always implies falsehood.

[Emmanuel]

But there's also that thing that acts like a sort of diversion. People like to cite when St. Athanasius was running from the Arians who wanted to kill him. He was standing at a harbor in wait for a ship. He tried to hide his face while an Arian or someone else asked if he knew where Athanasius was. He famously said: "He is not far from here."

There's also a St. John of the Cross anecdote. When St. Theresa called him to be a confessor at her monastery, the other nuns became scared of his reputation for austerity. No one wanted to have him as their confessor. One day, a nun unknowingly approached his confessional. She asked: "Calced or discalced?" He was a Discalced Carmelite. The saint covered his feet with his habit and said, "Calced." After this, he became everyone's favorite confessor.

[Manuel]

Emmanuel wrote: "I tend to agree with Professor Manuel, but this question is tough. Most authors say that, while it's never licit to sin, there are authorities like St. Hilary of Poitiers who thought it would be li..."

But your examples deal with lies. What about deeper manipulation, such as what takes place in Elfling?

I understand you are at the beginning of the novel, so it may take you some time to answer this question.

[Emmanuel]

Manuel wrote: "Emmanuel wrote: "I tend to agree with Professor Manuel, but this question is tough. Most authors say that, while it's never licit to sin, there are authorities like St. Hilary of Poitiers who thoug..."

Yes, I just wanted to add something to your discussion. I still have to reach that point in the book.