Dickensians! discussion
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Martin Chuzzlewit 1: Chapter 1 - 10
Sue, but Tom's character is fascinating, isn't it? :) We get so protective of him! I thought, maybe it's just us ladies being motherly, but no, I think all or most of the gentlemen here like him, too.I've been thinking about it, and this is what comes to mind: Tom has many of Dickens's personal traits. Sorry, I know I've named some of them already, but just to clarify this point... He loves books, and 'Robinson Crusoe' is one of his favourites. He is industrious. He likes to walk and observe. He creates through playing the organ (arguably, like Dickens created through writing). But, on the other hand, he is also extremely modest and kind. I don't know if he is the nicest character in the whole book for most readers, but certainly one of the nicest.
So, on the one hand, we're bound to like him, because he has Dickens's nice qualities plus some other nice qualities (now, I'm not saying Dickens was never modest, but maybe this is not how we usually think of him). On the other hand, I can see that we're often perplexed: if Tom is clever, as he's shown to be in some scenes, then why is he idolizing Pecksniff that much and how does he not notice Martin's limitations?..
And maybe we can return to these questions closer to the end of the book :)
Luffy, I'm sorry if what I said sounded like disagreement; this was not my intention. Of course, your interpretation of Tom is valid, and might well be closer to what the author intended than mine, if there really is that great a difference. What I said was that original readers were not likely to see Tom's plight as tragic, because, well, we've seen worse scenarios in Dickens, and, likely, they've known of worse cases in real life.
If I understand you correctly, you are somewhat angry at the Pecksniffs on Tom's behalf, and, really, we all are :)
I think what Sue and Bridget are saying, that there are some benefits to Tom's outlook, is also valid. What I mean is this:
Would it be better for Tom to leave Pecksniff and find better employment? We do not know for sure, but, given Tom's skills and character, it looks probable.
But so long as he stays with Pecksniff, would it make him happier if he focused on the way the Pecksniffs mistreat him? Probably not, right?
So can the relationship between Tom and Pecksniff change? We'll have to read some more to find out.
Bridget, I agree, it's interesting to think about Tom and Mark's friendship. We can also compare it to the friendship between Tom and John. I cannot imagine Mark trying to open Tom's eyes on Pecksniff, although by the way he evaluated Tigg & Slyme, I suppose he has no illusions about Pecksniff either.
Chapter 8 SummaryPecksniff and his daughters are travelling to London on what he said was a business trip. At first, they are alone in the carriage. Pecksniff moralises, drinks some brandy, and goes to sleep.
At a later stage, two people get in, haggling about the cost of their tickets: apparently, they paid for riding on the roof, but it's full, so they go inside, but without paying extra for this [the number of passengers on the roof was limited by an Act of Parliament]. When one of them, an elderly man, starts coughing, Pecksniff is irritated, and they recognise each other: this is Anthony Chuzzlewit, and his companion is his son Jonas [the ones who looked wary and cunning at the meeting in Chapter 4].
Pecksniff remembers that Anthony called him a hypocrite. Anthony explains that he thinks everybody who was at the meeting is one, but that he was annoyed that Pecksniff pretended to be something else; in fact, he suspects that Pecksniff keeps up appearances even before his daughters.
The narrative focus switches to Jonas. We learn that Anthony taught him to be grasping, and now Jonas's attitude to his father is one of annoyance and envy. Jonas makes a kind of flirtatious small talk with the two Miss Pecksniffs. The Chuzzlewits and the Pecksniffs eat together at a hotel and continue their journey to London.
Upon arrival, they part. Pecksniff and his daughters go somewhere through a maze of queer streets. They arrive at a dingy edifice, which is a boarding house belonging to somebody called M. Todgers. A small boy opens the door; apparently, he's an employee here. He ushers them in. M. Todgers comes in; she's a lady. She greets Mr Pecksniff; it seems they go way back. Pecksniff wants rooms for himself and his daughters, even though he knows that she only receives gentlemen boarders. Moreover, the house is full, but she manages to accommodate the girls in her own room (which is not a very nice one).
The gentlemen boarders are having breakfast in the adjoining room, and joking about somebody called Jinkins. Pecksniff tells his daughters that they shall see London later, 'all in good time', and the chapter ends by noting that we, too, shall know whether his business in London was, indeed, professional, in good time.
'Commercial boarding-houses advertised 'the comforts of home' to single men or to married clerks and shop assistants whose businesses took them temporarily to the city. Managing these establishments (and also inns and alehouses) was among the few socially sanctioned business activities for women. <...> For such women living at the margins of respectability, keeping a lodging-house offered contact with the larger world and a chance of earning enough money to maintain independence. <...> For the lodgers, residence in a boarding-house reputedly involved a wide range of inconveniences, ranging from smoking chimneys, dark rooms, verminous beds, noisy children, petty pilfering, and unwarranted 'extras' in the bill. But life must have been a struggle for the proprietor as well. Frequently she was compelled for financial reasons to live in the only room small or inconvenient enough to remain unrented, and her attempts to handle servant problems, meet the miscellaneous demands of as many as twenty 'gentlemen' boarders, keep household peace and negotiate the sexual overtures to which her position as a surrogate wife subjected her — all without losing custom or exceeding her household budget — demanded a rare blend of energy, finesse and cunning.'This is from Nancy Aycock Metz's 'The Companion to Martin Chuzzlewit', and she accompanies the note with this illustration:
The Lodging-House Keeper by Kenny Meadows
This is the end of Number III, which means tomorrow is our day to catch up and ponder on what we've read so far :)So, we learn a little more about some characters in this chapter, and we meet some new characters! What has caught your attention here, friends?
P. S. For some reason, the link to the latest summary was not working properly when inserted into Msg 3 at first, and then I've managed to make it work by manually correcting the link; and I am mightily proud of myself for this :) And this is to remind everybody that the helpful Msg 3 has all the links to all the summaries and our schedule, in case you might want to check our free days or a reminder of what the previous chapters were about :)
Plateresca wrote: "Sue, but Tom's character is fascinating, isn't it? :) We get so protective of him! I thought, maybe it's just us ladies being motherly, but no, I think all or most of the gentlemen here like him, t..."Hi Plateresca! I simply wanted to understand the text. I was surprised by your mellow interpretation. But I did not feel anger, because I only feel anger at some books that I DNF. Otherwise I just want to compare my understanding of life with that of literature.
Luffy, I see, thank you for the clarification!When I paraphrase the text, I try to be careful to just paraphrase the text, not to add anything to it; and when I'm writing my explanatory notes, I'm just adding the context that Victorian readers likely had and that we might otherwise miss. So unless the text gets very emotional, I try not to get very emotional either.
If you're asking about my personal interpretation, though, here goes...
As I understand it, Tom's grandmother's idea was for Tom to become a gentleman (which might remind you of somebody). So she paid for Tom's apprenticeship, and by now, Tom should have been an architect in his own right! Instead, he is Pecksniff's assistant. Now, I said that Victorian readers have seen and read of worse cases, and indeed, we have already mentioned Ralph & Noggs and Squeers & Smike. I believe there are undertones of the same relationship between Pecksniff and Tom: elements of gaslighting on Pecksniff's part to convince Tom of his inferiority to use him. E.g., why is it Tom's job to bring the snuffers? It's the Victorian equivalent of asking a colleague to bring a cup of coffee ;) So I see many things that are wrong with Tom's situation, and spoiled wine may not be the worst of them.
On the other hand, as I understand it, Charity keeps house, so it's her wine, and she is, as of now, not a fully-fleshed-out character for me, something more like a caricature, and thus it's only natural that she is uncharitable (remember 'And eggs' ;)). I kind of do not expect anything humane from her at this point. Young Martin, on the other hand, is not a caricature, so for me, the way he treats Tom, and possibly partly because Pecksniff goads him to do so, is much more poignant and sad than most things Charity could have done.
Now, the other thing we've been talking about is how much of this Tom understands and whether he chooses to ignore certain things. I'd say maybe he is in the process of asking himself these questions, too, right now (I mean, at this point of the story) :)
One of the things I love about Dickens is how he makes stuff real, ,and I appreciated the realness of this coach ride. So often in Victorian literature I've read, you just get a glimpse of what a long ride like this would be like, and are left wondering, "aren't their legs cramped? What if one of them snores?" As usual, Dickens takes us into the coach with him and shows us!I also thought this was such a brilliant description, from when the Pecksniff's were waiting inside the boarding house: "There was an odd smell in the passage, as if the concentrated essence of all the dinners that had been cooked in the kitchen since the house was built, lingered at the top of the kitchen stairs to that hour ... in particular, there was a sensation of cabbage; as if all the greens that had ever been boiled there, were evergreens, and flourished in immortal strength."🤣
Plateresca wrote: "Luffy, I see, thank you for the clarification!When I paraphrase the text, I try to be careful to just paraphrase the text, not to add anything to it; and when I'm writing my explanatory notes, I'm..."
Thanks for giving me your opinion. My dearest ambition is to finish MC's journey in this group as it's my favourite Dickensian book, and I never have finished such a discussion/project before.
Oh boy, a new slimy character to be wary of - Mr. Jonas and his roving eyes to the two young Miss Pecksniffs! And urging them to get a little closer! Yikes! No thanks! That’s creepy behavior. Seems that Mr. Pecksniff already knows the boarding house keeper. I find it rather presumptuous that he brings his daughters knowing they would not be able to have a proper room. Would he have needed to find an hotel or different type of lodging instead? Seems boarding houses were quite prevalent then but there would have been other options I’m assuming.
Kathleen wrote: "One of the things I love about Dickens is how he makes stuff real, ,and I appreciated the realness of this coach ride. So often in Victorian literature I've read, you just get a glimpse of what a l..."Kathleen, that is an excellent insight into Dickens’ craft. I honestly do not know of another writer who had such powers of observation, and was able to put down those observations so perfectly. There is all the senses being used and we feel it viscerally as readers. We come to these gems of sentences — and say wow.
Kathleen of roses and John, I couldn't agree more! John Mullan calls this Dickens's 'sensory inclusiveness' :) It's a great observation! Indeed, not many Victorian authors included descriptions of smells. (Apart from Dickens, Mullan only mentions powerful smells in 'Jane Eyre').Luffy, well, you know the book, so you know it's lengthy, but you also know what to expect, right? I'm rooting for you :)
Lori, 'yikes' describes my personal attitude to Jonas perfectly %)
I think the way Mr Pecksniff arranges for his daughters to stay at Todgers's at least borders on inappropriate, or just is inappropriate. Apart from the fact that he inconveniences Mrs Todgers, there's the fact that all other lodgers are gentlemen; this can't be right for two young unmarried ladies.
I found myself “Havishamed” by the first sentence about M. Todgers:M. Todgers was a lady — a rather bony and hard-featured lady — with a row of curls in the front of her head, shaped like little barrels of beer; and on the top of it something made of net — you couldn’t call it a cap exactly — which looked like a black cobweb.
Kathleen wrote: "One of the things I love about Dickens is how he makes stuff real, ,and I appreciated the realness of this coach ride. So often in Victorian literature I've read, you just get a glimpse of what a long ride like this would be like, and are left wondering, "aren't their legs cramped? What if one of them snores?" As usual, Dickens takes us into the coach with him and shows us!..."I agree! I know many readers (present company excluded) sometimes get bored with long descriptive passages, but to me, it's all about the delivery. When you have the ability to paint the vivid word pictures that Dickens possessed, including smells and sounds, it adds a dimension to the story that only enriches it.
Undoubtedly, Anthony Chuzzlewit and Jonah are vultures, but I kind of like that they're upfront about it. Unlike Pecksniff and his air of supercilious morality and martyrdom, and Slime & Tick, (love that, Shirleystampartiste!) who attempt to maintain the charade that Slyme is deserving of the inheritance because he is the embodiment of manly perfection, Anthony and Jonas are upfront about who and what they are. I don't like them, but I do have to give them credit for their honesty.
My favorite quote from this chapter is Jonah's attitude toward his father: "from his early habits of considering everything as a question of property, he had gradually come to look, with impatience, on his parent as a certain amount of personal estate, which had no right whatever to be going at large, but ought to be secured in that particular description of iron safe which is commonly called a coffin, and banked in the grave" (124). What a shock to these parents who raise their children to care for no one else, only to realize that their child doesn't make an exception for them!
Well, another interesting chapter but I confess to also being somewhat perplexed. Dickens introduces three new groups of characters. We have: Anthony Chuzzlewit and Mr Jonas; gentlemen boarders; Mrs Todgers. Now, what will Dickens do with these groupings? The Pecksniff daughters interact with the boarders? Anthony Chuzzlewit/Mr Jonas pair with Pecksniff? Mrs Todgers and Mrs Lupin? I have noticed how Dickens seems to be creating pairings of people and places. One other concept of pairing that I noticed is that there are the very good characters such as Tom Pinch and Mark Tapley who contrast with the Pecksniff’s and Martin Chuzzlewit senior. The themes of innocence versus experience seem to be emerging. We have discussed how Tom Pinch and Mark Tapley seem too good, too kind, too naive. These characters so far have been introduced as incorruptible. Most of the other characters introduced so far seem to be corrupted or certainly susceptible to corruption.
Lots of shifting parts to the plot so far.
I wonder how much fun Dickens had coming up with all of these Chuzzlewits and giving each one of them a totally unpleasant greed-inspired personality. I've always loved how Dickens filled his novels with characters whose mannerisms made them so identifiable (my favorite being the mild-mannered Mr. Snagsby in Bleak House with his various coughs depending on the occasion); but in MC, it's not mannerisms but the condition of their hearts. I'm looking forward to see where Dickens goes with these personalities. No wonder this is such a BIG BOOK!!!
Plateresca wrote: "I think the way Mr Pecksniff arranges for his daughters to stay at Todgers's at least borders on inappropriate, or just is inappropriate. Apart from the fact that he inconveniences Mrs Todgers, there's the fact that all other lodgers are gentlemen; this can't be right for two young unmarried ladies."I think he was delusional, and was counting on the owner to chaperone his brood. Had the owner turned out to be male, then Pecksniff would be officially the worst dad ever.
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "No wonder this is such a BIG BOOK!!!"Precisely. At the time Dickens was setting records in terms of pages for his books (bar the Bible and assorted books). Honestly I have always found it irksome that Dickens' claim to fame for chunkiest classic book has been usurped by Tolstoy. It's as if one's favourite pop group from the 60s has been upstaged in the Guinness Book of Records by Oasis or Blur or the Spice Girls.
Luffy Sempai wrote: "Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "No wonder this is such a BIG BOOK!!!"Precisely. At the time Dickens was setting records in terms of pages for his books (bar the Bible and assorted books). Honestly..."
I struggle with lengthy books as I’ve gotten older. The last really lengthy one I read was The Fraud by Zadie Smith, which actually had Dickens as a rather major character in it. It was a fascinating story, but took great effort. I think she was channeling her inner Dickens and decided that 575 pages was a good idea. This one will be my next.
My thought on Pecksniff bringing his daughters to such an inappropriate lodging house, I imagine it would be less expensive than any alternative and we know he’s a cheapskate. I bet he will request a reduced rate for the lesser accommodations his daughters receive also. Wily one he is. There doesn’t really appear to be much of a relationship between him and the young women. Perhaps that’s partly because they aren’t really fleshed out, as you said Plateresca. He has treated them largely as objects so far.Plateresca, your discussions of Tom, of everything above, have been excellent and add so much to my enjoyment of this book. This is quite a group of unsavory characters we’ve met already and we’re early in our reading. There are usually conversions of characters beliefs/behaviors in novels. Too many here need it but also seem unlikely to change. My mind is wondering where these people will end up even though it’s much too early to consider that. And, to be honest, some of these slimy creatures are really fun to read about (and I think Dickens had a good time writing about them too).
To continue the discussion about description, I thought of Dickens' long walks late at night when I read this:Mr Pecksniff, with one of the young ladies under each arm, dived across the street, and then across other streets, and so up the queerest courts, and down the strangest alleys and under the blindest arch-ways, in a kind of frenzy; now skipping over a kennel, now running for his life from a coach and horses; now thinking he had lost his way, now thinking he had found it; now…
As we go forward, I'm enjoying the novel more than I did at the beginning, but I definitely don't know where it is going. As usual, Dickens might not be sure either. At least he has many characters and situations to play with.
John wrote: "Luffy Sempai wrote: "Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "No wonder this is such a BIG BOOK!!!"Precisely. At the time Dickens was setting records in terms of pages for his books (bar the Bible and asso..."
I think that for some people, the thick book take their readers hostage and the reader must finish them and they do experience a sensation of relief towards the end.
A lot of astute observations already made by the group, and Plateresca, you are doing an amazing job of fleshing out all the details. No wonder I did not remember much about this novel...just keeping track of the characters in the beginning is a task for a younger mind! I'm pretty pleased that this is a totally new experience for me. I have no more idea of where it is going than if I had never even seen its cover. There are a lot of people to dislike, and a lot to make fun of, already. There seems to be every sort of despicable creature imaginable amongst the Chuzzlewits. Like Shirley, I am taken by the variety of individual rascals Dickens could produce on paper.
Kathleen -- that description does indeed conjure Dickens' night walks through the seedier sides of town.
Just when I started to give Pecksniff the benefit of the doubt as other more vile characters come on the scene, the first paragraph of Chap * put me off him again! Saying isn't it great that there are unfortunate people in the world, so those of us who are better off can affect gratitude!! Just another facade for him to wear to look like he is better than he really is. As others have noted, it then puts Mrs. Todgers in a bind by asking her to put up his daughters at her boarding house.
John, indeed! Thank you for drawing our attention to the black cobweb. Cindy, spot on! This attitude of Jonas is exactly what Dickens wanted us to notice, what he mentioned in one of the prefaces, and what will be a recurring theme in the novel.
I am often amazed by how professional literary critics write volumes of articles, and here in this group, people can just nail important themes in a couple of paragraphs :)
Peter, I've been thinking about Dickensian doubles, too (since mentioning Ralph and Squeers yesterday), thank you for bringing this up! It has not occurred to me to compare Mrs Lupin and Mrs Todgers, but there is, indeed, a sound basis for comparison!
Sara noticed earlier that 'While Mark wants to exude joy in spite of poor circumstances, Tom actually does that', that would be another contrasting pair.
I guess we can compare young Martin with John Westlock, too.
'Innocence vs experience': I agree, this is definitely one of the themes of the novel, since we even see apprentices from the very beginning. And when you said 'innocence', I've realized what Browne's illustration of Mark Tapley leaving felt reminiscent of: the Tarot Fool card (it often has an animal in it, too).
Shirley, exactly :) But Dickens was proud of how he structured this novel, so, presumably, even at this early stage, he knew what he was going to do with all of these characters.Luffy, well, yes, on the surface of it, the misses Pecksniff are chaperoned by Mrs Todgers, so all is well. However, given her many responsibilities, it's uncertain how much of her attention she can devote to these unexpected guests.
Ha, you probably know that Dickens was a huge inspiration for Tolstoy :)
To everybody who has mentioned the volume of the book: do not be daunted, it's Dickens, he'll keep us turning those pages :)
Sue: 'Wily one he is', exactly! Wise you are :)
Seriously, yes, well-noted about Pecksniff. While he might have seemed an affectionate father when he was in company, when he's left alone with his daughters, we see that he's absolutely indifferent to their comfort.
And, oh, yes, I do think Dickens's enthusiasm is infectious :)
Kathleen, that's a nice quote, thank you! Some critics (Patricia Ingham, I think) have drawn our attention to the fact that Pecksniff, presumably, is an architect, so, presumably, should not be baffled by geography to this extent :)
And, again, presumably, this is the first of Dickens's planned novels, so he might have known all along what he was going to do with all of those characters. I think it's an interesting theoretical question we can get back to at the end of the book: does it really look like Dickens planned it all this way from the very beginning? So far, we have uncovered references to travelling very early on, despite the fact that some critics believe that the journey to America was not something Dickens originally intended to write about.
Sara, oh yes, Dickens's patent variety of rascals, well said :)
Chris, well-noted!
Metz notes that Pecksniff's attitude to the beggar was representative of the status quo ideas still current at the time the novel was composed (we've mentioned these ideas earlier). Rousseau wrote that the people at the top 'would cease being happy if people ceased being miserable'.
Then some of us might remember Robinson Crusoe's musings: 'It is very rare that the providence of God casts us into any condition of life so low, or to any misery so great, but we may see something or other to be thankful for, and may see others in worse circumstances than our own'.
I am retelling Metz's notes, and she concludes thus: 'Pecksniff's rhetorical oiliness and his habit of elevating his personal comforts to the status of moral exempla constitute criticisms of the evangelical temper of Dickens's own times; the fullest expression of these qualities is in the portrait of Chandband in BH.'
Thank you for your kind words, everybody :) Your kindness is only matched by your perspicacity, and I am enjoying our discussion greatly!
I hope those people who have started the book with us and have been mostly silent since won't be too shy to add their comments at some stage.
We will read the first half of Chapter 9 tomorrow, and everybody is welcome to add more thoughts on the first three instalments!
Just a brief housekeeping question of sorts. At the end of Chapter 8, in parentheses, it states: End of Number III.Does anyone know what this means? I have the Penguin Nook Book edition.
Plateresca wrote: "Ha, you probably know that Dickens was a huge inspiration for Tolstoy :)"
No, as a matter of fact I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. Unfortunately for me, facts about basically anything can't be known for sure before confirmation. But I should have known!
Mod
Does anyone know what this means? "
Plateresca sort of answered this in the previous comment. Chapter 8 is the final chapter in Installment 3 (i.e. the original serial publication). She has added all of these for the entire book in comment 3, and we have a day's break at the end of each installment. So you have an extra reminder of this, in your edition of the book.
I'm still here everyone - was travelling yesterday - so have just enjoyed reading these most recent remarkable comments, and finding that I was nodding sagely at several points. Plateresca, you're doing an amazing job and giving us a cornucopia of info too. Thank you!
Jean, thank you for answering John's question. Yes, 'numbers' are the same as 'instalments', and we've completed the first three, which were published in January, February, and March of 1843. This particular novel is a bit different in that the chapters are less even in length than in some other ones, so sometimes we have three chapters, and sometimes, just two per instalment//number. But, like I said, Msg 3 will help us to always know where we are :)Luffy, I didn't mean to say you should have known, I just thought, maybe you guessed; but now you know for sure :)
Thank you Jean and Plateresca for deciphering that for me. And Plateresca, I appreciate your terrific work here leading our discussion and reading.
We're beginning Instalment//Number IV and Chapter 9. This is another long chapter, so today we're only reading the first half of it, until the words 'half their failure'.Chapter 9 Summary, part I
Todgers's is located in a weird, labyrinthine neighbourhood; it's not easy to find it. Because of the vicinity of fruit sellers, it smells of damaged oranges. Everything around it is strange, dilapidated, dingy.
The Miss Pecksniffs are, by this time, very friendly with Mrs Todgers. She tells them how difficult it is to run the boarding house: 'the gravy alone' is a constant source of worry, because 'There is no such passion in human nature, as the passion for gravy among commercial gentlemen.' This reminds Charity of Mr Pinch, who also likes gravy, only, as Merry notes, he never gets any from them.
The commercial gentlemen who board at Todgers's want the Miss Pecksniffs to be present at dinner on Sunday. Everybody thinks it's a good idea.
Pecksniff, his daughters, and Mrs Todgers go to visit Miss Pinch, Tom's sister, who is a governess in a 'lofty' family. Tom is not particularly good-looking, so they all expect his sister to be ugly, but she is not. When they arrive, she is with her pupil, a young girl who looks older than her age, and makes mental notes of everything said that might be detrimental to Miss Pinch, to pass it on to her parents. Pecksniff is extremely condescending, but Ruth Pinch believes he is Thomas's benefactor and is grateful to him.
Mrs. Todgers and The Pecksniffs Call upon Miss Pinch, by Phiz
From the Victorian Web, image scanned by Philip V. Allingham
The Pecksniffs are in raptures over the pupil, and Pecksniff asks her to compliment her father on the taste of the house, but then the footman comes in, and Pecksniff asks him to give his message and his card to the owner of the house. Mrs Todgers attempts to pass on her own card, too, but is prevented by Pecksniff. As they are leaving, Pecksniff is constantly complimenting the house, until, when they are outside, the owner sees them from an upper window and tells them to get off the lawn. This upsets the company, and they all blame Miss Pinch for this, and the Miss Pecksniffs also blame Mrs Todgers. In reality, it was the pupil who told her parents that the party was rather vulgar, and Miss Pinch suffered from their reproaches.
Some notes, mostly from Nancy Aycock Metz's 'The Companion to Martin Chuzzlewit'(You likely know most of this, but just to recap):
The 'commercial gentlemen' were members of a growing class of travelling salesmen employed by trading houses to collect debts and solicit orders.
'Ruth Pinch's employment as a governess (view spoiler)
'The footman's livery apes the style of aristocratic liveried servants, itself an imitation of eighteenth-century costume. This lingering affectation had become the subject of ridicule.' The 'fluted pillars in the portico' were probably also too ostentatious for good taste.
Hello, Plateresca! I wonder (view spoiler)As for the aping of aristocratic livery, it may have been employed by the nouveaux riche people. The World Wars were but a gleam into the future, and the complaint that it was now impossible to get good help was so futuristic that it must have never been spoken by those who employ.
Fascinating information regarding governesses. I recall one of the most famous governesses in The Turn of the Screw.I did notice that Chapter 9 is a long one — the second long one so far — and I had always thought there was uniformity of chapter length due to publishing requirements related to the installments. I guess not.
Luffy, I do not know that anything terrible happened to Miss Dickens! I guess we would have known if it did, although one can't be sure. All I can say is, I've never read anything laudatory about this job position, so I very much doubt she enjoyed it. And yes, it is implied that the family is nouveau riche, exactly, and the way Pecksniff is ready to praise them to the skies says a lot about his taste and moral standards %)
John, of course! My favourite one is Jane Eyre, though :)
You see, the length of each issue//instalment//number was limited by the page count, exactly, because of printing requirements, but the length of each chapter within each issue was not. Which is why, as I said, sometimes we have two long chapters, and sometimes three shorter ones.
That said, I do think that some of these longer chapters could easily be divided in two, as there is a clear change of subject and/or atmosphere somewhere in the middle, very noticeable if one has to recount the plot of the chapter :) I guess we must suppose that the author saw those two parts as unified enough to constitute one chapter... or else he just didn't care much about the number of chapters in each instalment as long as the length of the instalment was right :)
And it is presumed that he sometimes edited out scenes for the sake of fitting his chapters into instalments, which I find kind of sad, really.
Going back to the comments in Chapter 8, like Luffy, I did not know that Dickens was a huge inspiration for Tolstoy. They're both such giants, it's interesting to hear that one inspired the other.In Chapter 9, I found Dickens' description of the Todgers' neighborhood to be so vile and claustrophobic, it reminded me of what Kathleen observed in Chapter 8: that these long and detailed descriptions of city streets reminded her of "Dickens' long walks late at night." I thought the same thing when I was reading about the Todgers' neighborhood. I can see him getting lost in these vile city streets and making mental notes for future literary use.
And speaking of literary use, I just loved the numerous images Dickens drew for us in this chapter. My favorite, which literally made me laugh, was this one about one of the footmen at the mansion where Miss Pinch worked:
...a great footman appeared in due time at the great hall door, with such great tags upon his liveried shoulder that he was perpetually entangling and hooking himself among the chairs and tables, and led a life of torment which could scarcely have been surpassed, if he had been a blue-bottle in a world of cobwebs.
This chapter is lengthy but in the first paragraphs of the chapter we see how incredible Dickens’s skills of description are. The description of the area around Todger’s boarding home is brilliant. There are ebbs and flows in both the word choice and the sentence structures. The images and methods of description are crisp, creative, and highly imaginative. When Dickens turns to describe Pecksniff’s daughters he is equally inspired. As they prepare to visit Miss Pinch Dickens tells the reader that ‘they armed themselves with the best bonnets for the utter defeat and overthrow of Miss Pinch’. I love that phrase. And how wrong the sisters will be! How delightful that when visiting Miss Pinch the event left Pecksniff’s daughters with ‘indignation’. Miss Pinch has stature, class, and is composed; Mercy is not Merry and Charity is not cheery.
When we look at Browne’s illustration we get a very comprehensive impression of the visit. Miss Pinch is centred in the illustration. Surrounding her are found a collection of females who are less attractive and, because of their various postures, are presented as less calm, placid, and composed. If we look at the wall at the back of the room we see a map. Browne often included maps on walls, on tables, or even on the floor of a room in order to comment and introduce symbolism to the events occurring within the illustration. In this illustration the map suggests to the reader that there is much to be discovered, revealed, and presented in the next chapters.
On a more immediate level we see that a hand mirror is on the floor at the foremost position in the illustration. It appears that the reflective surface of the mirror is turned toward the floor. Between Mr Pecksniff and Miss Pinch is a world globe. The placement of the mirror and the world globe further suggests that much is still to be seen, explored and discovered about the characters in the illustration.
I thought the descriptions of the Todgers neighborhood were marvelous. What a dingy, smelly, uninviting place. I got the feeling the neighborhood was previously a happy place to live "Among the narrow thoroughfares at hand there lingered here and there an ancient doorway...from which, of old, the sounds of revelry and feasting often came". And now these old mansions are used by businesses as warehouses, which seems an attack on the growing industries on London that are taking over and replacing communal neighborhoods. Is this Dickens way of criticizing capitalism?
And there are churches by the dozen, but they don't seem to be doing anything to lift the spirits of the people living there.
The contrast between the Pecksniffs and the brass and copper family is great! Mr. Pecksniff was just saying in Chapter 8 that feeling superior to other people is "one of the holiest feelings of our common nature", and I think he just helped the brass and copper family to experience that happy, holy feeling. The whole "get off my grass scene" was so funny!
Some great funny moment in this chapter (so far). Plateresca quoted a great one about the gravy. My other favorite is "the major part of the company inclined to the belief that virtue went out with hair-powder, and that old England's greatness had decayed amain with barbers"
Peter wrote: "On a more immediate level we see that a hand mirror is on the floor at the foremost position in the illustration. It appears that the reflective surface of the mirror is turned toward the floor...."I love your help with interpreting these illustrations, Peter. I thought the mirror was a tennis racket, to accompany the jump rope on the floor. And I thought I detected a ball near Mrs. Lupin, but now I think maybe that's just her foot. And I didn't even notice the globe. Well spotted!!
I love all the comments about the imagery in the description of the Todger's neightborhood. I don't know if Dickens thought about it at the time, but what a window into his world for his readers in the future! It brings the past to life in a way no history book can rival.I'm not sure I'm interpreting a section correctly. When Mr. Pecksniff walks into Mrs. Todger's apartment before they leave for to call on Miss Pinch, Mrs. Todgers initiates a discussion about an invitation from Mr. Jinkins to a shared dinner. (This is page 136 in my Penguin edition). First of all, it says he puts his arm around Mrs. Todgers, "whom he seemed, in the abstraction of the moment, to mistake for Charity" (136). I'm assuming that he doesn't think it is Charity and is trying to get up close and personal with the landlady. She doesn't seem to reciprocate his interest as "she gently eluded Mr. Pecksniff's grasp." This is cringeworthy on Pecksniff's part (getting handsy with a respectable woman was pretty bold behavior), but even more so is the fact that Mrs. Todger then embraces Charity to diffuse the situation because that young lady (LADY, not child) has a "lowering, not to say distinctly spiteful expression" on her face because her dad is showing attention to another woman! She's jealous of her dad's sexual/romantic interest in an older woman? Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, this takes them to a new level of gross behavior, in my opinion!
Bridget wrote: "Peter wrote: "On a more immediate level we see that a hand mirror is on the floor at the foremost position in the illustration. It appears that the reflective surface of the mirror is turned toward..."Bridget
Thanks for your kind words but you may well be equally correct. I agree with you that in the forefront of the illustration the object on the floor is definitely a skipping rope. My thought was that a hand mirror placed in the illustration would be suggestive of the many vain people who populate the room. That said, the object (hand mirror or some form of racket) makes perfect sense. A pairing of a skipping rope and a racket does connect very logically!
As for the world globe that is seen between Pecksniff and Miss Pinch we could further say that Browne wanted to suggest these two characters were worlds apart in terms of honour, dignity, and honesty. Maps and globes suggest travel hmmm?
I’m glad you are enjoying help decipher the illustrations. If you want to read a fascinating book on the topic of Browne’s illustrations take a look at Dickens and Phiz It was my first introduction to ‘reading’ the illustrations of Hablot Browne.
The third paragraph of this chapter — which starts with Several fruit brokers — is one of the most sublimely beautiful and haunting paragraphs I have ever read by Dickens. It goes from damaged oranges festering in boxes, to strange pumps hinting at liquid squallor, to dozens of churches with straggly vegetation strangling the graveyards, to languishing trees still attempting to bring forth green leaves, to paralyzed old watchmen keeping an eye on the dead.
Cindy wrote: "She's jealous of her dad's sexual/romantic interest in an older woman? Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, this takes them to a new level of gross behavior, in my opinion!"I didn't notice that detail. Faugh. But now my pet theory is that along with the Elektra complex, there is a hefty dose of anti-feminism involved.
After the descriptions of the Mrs T's neighborhood, my favorite part was Pecksniff being told to get off the grass!!! LOL.
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Going back to the comments in Chapter 8, like Luffy, I did not know that Dickens was a huge inspiration for Tolstoy. They're both such giants, it's interesting to hear that one inspired the other...."
Wonderful attention to the outfits of the fake military aides.peace, janz
I admired Miss Pinch’s ability to see the Pecksniffs for what they are, while recognizing their importance to her brother, and manage her part of the visit very well. Of course, the Pecksniffs hardly noticed any of the gentle managing she did since they really only listen to themselves. The daughters are proving to be quite like their father.
Chris wrote: "After the descriptions of the Mrs T's neighborhood, my favorite part was Pecksniff being told to get off the grass!!! LOL."And how Pecksniff tried to ignore being told off by pretending that he was continuing to consider the architecture and informing the Miss Pecksniffs of the particular virtues of the roof and the cornices, LOL!
Sue wrote: "I admired Miss Pinch’s ability to see the Pecksniffs for what they are, while recognizing their importance to her brother, and manage her part of the visit very well. Of course, the Pecksniffs hard..."I thought Miss Pinch was all gratitude. Did she see through her visitors? Can anyone point me to such a place in the chapter?
Shirley, well-noted! Another reference to cobwebs. Mrs Todgers's cap was described as reminiscent of a cobweb, too. Look out for spiders...Peter, thank you (again) for your brilliant analysis of Browne's artwork!
Like Bridget, I think the object on the floor might be a racket. The little thing next to Miss Pinch looks a bit like a shuttlecock, doesn't it?
And yes, everybody except Miss Pinch is marvellously contorted!
And yess, maps and globes do suggest travel, and this is not the last time we meet something of the kind in Browne's illustrations for this novel...
(I have not yet read this book by Steig, but have seen it quoted many times, I'm sure it's a great resource! It's in my wishlist :)).
Bridget, yes, I love the get-off-the-grass scene, too :) Nice quote about hair-powder!
NB: 'In 1795 all persons wearing hair powder were annually taxed one guinea — a law that was fatal to the fashion and to the business of barbers, since daily hairdressing became no longer a necessity. Men's fashions then followed the French style of wearing natural hair. Hair powder was made from potato starch which adhered to a layer of pomatum.' [Metz]
(Only it's not Mrs Lupin here, but Mrs Todgers).
Cindy, I think your interpretation of the scene is correct. The young ladies are invited to dine with 'commercial gentlemen' and the only other lady present will be Mrs Todgers; I'm sure that not every father would have liked this idea.
And yes, Pecksniff is allowing himself too much with Mrs Todgers.
Now, Charity might have two reasons to be unhappy about this. (And this is very subtle, it's really very clever of you to have noticed this!). One of them might be, she thinks her father is making a fool of himself, and she is embarrassed by his improper behaviour.
Another reason for her discontent might be this: as of now, she is the mistress of the Pecksniff household. If it so happens that her father remarries, his new wife will be the mistress. Charity might not like this idea, so be on guard against potential candidates.
Luffy, this also addresses your comment; I do not think Charity is jealous of her father's affections, but she might have her reasons for not wanting him to court women.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Martin Chuzzlewit (other topics)Martin Chuzzlewit (other topics)
Martin Chuzzlewit (other topics)
Dickens and Phiz (other topics)
The Turn of the Screw (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Fred Barnard (other topics)
Hablot Knight Browne (other topics)
Robert William Buss (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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The girl is not named in this chapter, but it is obviously Mary, old Martin's helper.
Cindy, I love your phrasing here: 'It is apparently Tigg's relentless begging from everyone that supports them as they pursue this dream.' A worthy dream, indeed :)
I think that Tigg is probably well aware of Martin's identity, though.
And yes, I was saddened by how easy it was for Martin to suggest that Tom promise to pay Slyme's debt; doing this can in no way be easy for poor Tom, who can't even afford to post a letter to his beloved sister.
Shirley, thank you for finding the ages of the characters in the text! 🌷
Re: a month's wages — and maybe more :( I agree, Tigg and Slyme are repulsive in this chapter.
John, I really don't know anything about Dickens's opinion of Marlowe, so it's hard to say. What I do know is, he himself loved Shakespeare, so I actually wonder at how he could let Tigg corrupt his lines that much :)
Another point that can be made (I think I've read this in Monod's book) is this: with Dickens's fascination with the theatre, it seems likely that when he was quoting Shakespeare, he was thinking of those lines not as text in a book, but as part of a performance, sometimes maybe by a particular actor. And if you look at his theatrical allusions this way, you can see this might well be true.
And now that I've said this, I understand that if I look upon Tigg as an actor on a stage, I can maybe laugh a bit more at him... If only he didn't have to borrow from Tom!
Another allusion we haven't yet commented upon is Milton. Tigg calls Slyme 'the most thoroughly Shakspearian, if not Miltonic'. Metz: 'It has been suggested that [the] gathering of the contentious Chhuzzlewit clan is a 'farcical parody of the infernal councl scene of the second book of Paradise Lost'. The analogy is supported both by casual allusions (Tigg sports a 'regular Satanic moustache' and is 'proud as Lucifer') and by larger structural parallels. <...>' (Although she also notes that the gathering of quarrelsome relatives might also be an allusion to political fighting within the Tori party under the leadership of Peel).