Homer, The Hymn to Demeter--Revisited

[Tamara]

For our next interim read, we will be diving into the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, composed around 650 B.C.E.

The story of Demeter and Persephone is atypical in Greek mythology in that it speaks to the female experience. Specifically, it focuses on the mother/daughter bond; the severing of that bond; the violation of the bodily and psychic integrity of the female; the separation, loss, and reconciliation of the grieving mother and her child; and the virgin, mother, and crone as phases in a woman’s life.

The myth gained access to the public sphere and was the center of the Eleusinian Mysteries, sacred rites performed on an annual basis for over a thousand years until suppressed by the church at the end of the fourth century C.E. Much has been written about the Eleusinian Mysteries. We know they occurred in two phases: the Lesser Mysteries, held once a year in spring in Athens; and the Greater Mysteries, held in fall at Eleusis. The Lesser Mysteries consisted of purification and instruction and were a pre-requisite for the Greater Mysteries. The Greater Mysteries, lasting nine days (corresponding to the nine days Demeter searches for her daughter and to the nine months of pregnancy), consisted of purifications, sacrifices, and concluded with a final visionary experience. Participants were sworn to secrecy, so we know little of what actually transpired in the ritual. Scholars speculate some sort of reenactment of the myth occurred. Homer tells us participation in the ritual was transformative:

Blessed is the mortal on earth who has seen these rites,
But the uninitiated who has no share in them never
Has the same lot once dead in the dreary darkness.
(lines 480 – 482; Helen Foley translation)

The Homeric Hymn to Demeter, which forms the foundation of the mysteries, resonates on many different levels and has attracted a great deal of artistic and scholarly attention as evidenced by a quick online search. Books range from myth analysis to poems about the Demeter/Persephone experience. The myth offers a wealth of possibilities for interpretation and discussion. I look forward to exploring and unraveling its mysteries with you.

An online search reveals some available translations, including the following:

Gregory Nagy translation: https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-sourc...

Internet Archive: https://dn721607.ca.archive.org/0/ite...

Also

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...

I will be using the Helen Foley translation:
https://www.bxscience.edu/ourpages/au...

[Tamara]

There is much to discuss in the poem. Here are a couple of questions to get us started:

Why does Demeter disguise herself as an old woman when she withdraws from Olympus? Is there any significance to her waiting by the well at Eleusis? What do you make of the story she fabricates to the daughters of Keleos and Metaneira?

[Tamara]

The Greek pantheon operates under certain rules, one of which is a god cannot encroach on another’s territory or jurisdiction. Hermes as the messenger of the gods is an exception. A case in point is Hades. As god of the underworld, Hades does not have access to the overworld unless someone creates an opening for him. Hence the need for the large narcissus to create the opening. Similarly, as goddess of the grain, Demeter cannot enter the underworld to retrieve her daughter. And as much as they would like to, the gods cannot make the grain grow since that falls under Demeter’s jurisdiction.

One other rule in the Greek pantheon book of rules is that if you eat food from the underworld, you have to return. This raises the question: why does Persephone swallow the pomegranate seed knowing that by doing so, she will have to return to the underworld? She hadn’t eaten anything until Hermes showed up to announce her rescue. Homer tells us Hades “stealthily” passes the pomegranate seed around her lest she once more stay forever/by the side of Demeter. “Stealthily” or not, Persephone didn’t have to swallow the seed. Why not just spit it out? Even a baby knows to spit out food he/she doesn’t like. I remember only too well my sons as infants spitting out vegetables each time I tried to sneak them “stealthily” underneath a spoon of meat. So why doesn’t Persephone spit out the pomegranate seed? I can understand Hades wanting her back. But why does she make a conscious decision to cement her return to the underworld?

[Lily]

Tamara wrote: "But why does she make a conscious decision to cement her return to the underworld? ..."

A very human and relevant question, Tamara. Why, so often, does simple exposure to an alternative lead it to be treated as a viable, livable one? Curiosity? Keeping options open? Uncertainty, no matter how narrow? (Consider immigration/migration in the world today, as individuals/families make decisions for their fates -- or have decisions forced upon them.)

[Tamara]

I think it has a lot to do with what Hades says to her before she leaves the underworld.

[Susan]

What a strange and beautiful story! My first impression is the beauty of the language and the many images of flowers. How interesting that Demeter’s initial reaction to losing her daughter is to become a nurse to a human child and to attempt to make it immortal. Does she see the child as a substitute in some way for Persephone? Even in her disguise as an elderly woman, she is still recognizable as someone touched by the divine. Does she take the guise of an old woman to win trust by (somewhat) disguising her power and divinity in the guise of someone physically weak but possessing wisdom and insight due to age?

[Michael]

I have really enjoyed the deep dives this podcast does on Greek myths. They did two episodes (over two hours) of content on this myth. I'm going to hold of on listening to it until I've done more of my own analysis. Here are the links for anyone that is interested.

* https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...
* https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...

[Michael]

Tamara wrote: "I can understand Hades wanting her back. But why does she make a conscious decision to cement her return to the underworld?"

Does she, though? We have two accounts of the events, the poet tells us that "he gave her a honey-sweet pomegranate seed, stealthily passing it around her..." but then some lines later we get Persephone's explanation to her mother "he stealthily put in my mouth a food honey-sweet, a pomegranate seed, and compelled me against my will and by force to taste it". In the Crudden translation her version says "...and using violence forced me to taste it against my will."

As I understand it, consuming the seed is a metaphor for a sexual consummation of the marriage. It happened at that time because she was being removed from Hades' realm, he needed to bind her to him and to that place. It could have been done with violence, against her will (like the marriage arrangement between father and husband) as she describes to her mother, or, if voluntary, could have been her acquiescing to the marriage. I think the idea of stealthily placing honey-sweet seed inside her echoes the stealthy marriage arrangement between men. Neither the bride, nor the mother were consulted.

[Tamara]

Susan wrote: "Does she take the guise of an old woman to win trust by (somewhat) disguising her power and divinity in the guise of someone physically weak but possessing wisdom and insight due to age?.."

I think that is a part of it. But I also see more.

Everything about the story Demeter fabricates has to do with her distancing herself from the male hegemonic power structure of Mt. Olympus. She grounds herself firmly in the feminine.

She disregards the role of the father by crediting her mother with naming her. This signifies a time when communities were matrilineal and descent was traced through mothers instead of fathers. She claims her origin is Crete—a culture that had been matrilocal, matrilineal, and one that celebrated the feminine and honored mother-right. She was ostensibly abducted by pirate men and escaped to avoid slavery. Slavery as an institution originated with the enslavement of captive females of a defeated army. She waits by the well where, traditionally, women come to draw water. And she seeks employment as a nurse—a form of employment traditionally assigned to the female.

Demeter’s words and actions speak to her grounding herself firmly in the feminine sphere in defiance of the male-dominated power structure of Mt. Olympus that disregarded her role as a female and as a mother.

[Tamara]

Michael wrote: "Tamara wrote: "I can understand Hades wanting her back. But why does she make a conscious decision to cement her return to the underworld?"

Does she, though? We have two accounts of the events, th..."

Yes, there are two versions: Homer’s version and Persephone’s version as she narrates it to her mother. But is Persephone to be trusted here? She claims Hades forced her to eat the pomegranate seed. Can anyone force you to swallow something against your will? I don’t think so. People on hunger strike have died because they refused to swallow food. It seems to me Persephone is slightly distorting the truth here.

I think we have to consider before and after, what is lost and what is gained.

Before her abduction, Persephone didn’t even have a proper name. She was identified in relation to her mother as “the slim-ankled daughter” of Demeter or as “kore,” the maiden. Interestingly enough, she screams for her father—not for her mother—as she is being abducted. Ironically, it is her father who approved of and orchestrated her abduction, but it is her mother who rescues her.

[Tamara]

After here rape and her new status as the bride of Hades, Persephone gains a proper name. She spends a year in the underworld. She doesn’t eat the whole time she is there. If she leaves the underworld without eating its food, she won't be able to return. She will have the dubious distinction of being yet another female raped by a god. But she won’t have any power associated with being the bride of Hades.

After Hermes announces Zeus has ordered her release, Hades reminds her of his suitability as a spouse. And then he says the following:

And when you are there, [in the upper world]
You will have power over all that lives and moves,
And you will possess the greatest honors among the gods.
There will be punishment forevermore for those wrongdoers
Who fail to appease your power with sacrifices,
Performing proper rites and making due offerings.”

Upon hearing his words, we are told thoughtful Persephone rejoiced. Eagerly she leapt for joy.

She knows her release is imminent. But notice she rejoices and leaps for joy only after she hears Hades’ words—not before. Hades presents her with a choice. He reminds her she will have power and possess the greatest honor among the gods. But this power is conditional. And the condition is she has to return periodically to the underworld to renew her status as its queen. To retain access to both the underworld and upper world, she has to swallow the pomegranate seed. This will endow her with a power unique among the gods. She can punish those who fail to honor her while in the upper world, and, significantly, she can also punish them while in the underworld—something not even her mother can do. Her power comes from her ability to traverse both worlds.

The sequence of events suggests to me Persephone is fully cognizant of her actions and embraces her newly gained power as queen of the underworld with unique access to the upper world.

What has Persephone lost? She has lost her virginity, her innocence.
What has she gained? She has gained a unique identity; a unique power; a strong, articulate voice (she talks to her mother for over 30 lines. Contrast that with kore’s shrill cry for her father).

Persephone has been abducted and raped. She can’t undo what’s been done. So she chooses to move forward and empower herself by swallowing the food of death that is, ironically, the source of her power. She swallows the pomegranate seed.

[Lily]

Is there an "ultimate" power? One can put "hope" versus "despair" on balance pans. Or life versus death. Or love versus hate. Or ... or ... or. (See Wikipedia for the Laken Riley Act; note the support/opposition thereto.) Personally, I visit again the power of story, like the ancient one we read here, to hold up mirrors to the privileges and the responsibilities of being human. (Or consider the "silly little book," signed by its author, that came to my attention this afternoon in clearing a youth's bookcase: The Broccoli Tapes.) (Is it fair to ask for "tips" on how to read in these days -- to make or to avoid comparisons with the news cycles.)

[Michael]

I don't disagree with the "there's what happened and there's what you tell mom" take. It feels correct.

I do think that there is still some violence, physical or otherwise, involved in not having a choice and not being told about a marriage arrangement made by your father. I also think the sexual union was something she may not have had a choice about. Sure she could spit up a pomegranate seed, but in the bigger picture, she was now in a world in which she could hold out but was going to lose in the long run. I was only her mother's power and its consequences that made an alternate future possible through Zeus's intervention.

I think a big part of this story is the coming to terms with the changes and the new realities that both daughter and the mother live with. While supernatural beings, the story resonates because they represent the commonly experienced reality of a daughter moving away her father/mother to her husband. Persephone is now a powerful queen and Demeter, in her disguise and trying on of new responsibilities, transitions from mother to crone.

[Tamara]

Michael wrote: "I do think that there is still some violence, physical or otherwise, involved in not having a choice and not being told about a marriage arrangement made by your father..."

I agree there is violence, but I think that is the way many marriages were done at the time. The father made all the decisions, and the mother was not consulted. Women were parceled off in marriage to cement political alliances. Rape was the method by which the male claimed the female as his property.

I also agree Persephone didn't have a choice with the abduction, rape, and marriage. But the question is what happens now? And here's where I think Persephone makes a choice. She can't go back to being kore. So she moves forward and exercises agency.

[Tamara]

Michael wrote: "I think a big part of this story is the coming to terms with the changes and the new realities that both daughter and the mother live with..."

I read it the same way. Just as Persephone transitions from being a young maiden to the next phase in her life as a married female, Demeter transitions from being a mother to a post-menopausal female--the crone. She learns her child is now a woman, which, for Demeter means she is no longer in the mothering phase in her life. But she's in a sort of in between phase--not quite ready to give it up and move on. Maybe that's why she decides to be a care-giver for the baby--to prolong that phase. Demeter is not only mourning the "death" of her daughter, she is also mourning the loss of the mothering phase in her life.

Michael wrote: "While supernatural beings, the story resonates because they represent the commonly experienced reality of a daughter moving away her father/mother to her husband."

Absolutely! That's why this myth resonates so profoundly, especially with women.

[Michael]

currently in a bookstore looking at "Persephone Made Me Do It" by Trista Mater. I don't think I'll buy it. I will share some poems.


if I am selfish for wanting
to keep one foot in heaven
and one foot in hell
then I am selfish
so what talk shit
I still get what I want


---------

Men have been abducting women
since the dawn of time,
so maybe

I shouldn't have been surprised
when it happened to me


---------

I thought I would be safe,
being God's Daughter.
I thought I would be the exception
instead of the rule

---------

Zeus knew where I was.
Helios saw all that happened under the sun.
Hermes and Hecate and Charon and Nyx
all moved freely between the Upper World
and the Under.

They knew where I was.

No one bothered to intervene until they were
inconvenienced by my mother's grief.

[Roger]

So the message seems to be: You will have things forced on you, and that sucks, but if you resign yourself to accept the unavoidable, you will receive great honor and power.

[Lily]

Roger wrote: "So the message seems to be: You will have things forced on you, and that sucks, but if you resign yourself to accept the unavoidable, you will receive great honor and power."

Uh, huh. If ....

[Tamara]

What choice does Persephone have other than to accept what happened and move on?

The unavoidable has already happened whether Persephone resigns herself to it or not. So then her choice is to refuse the pomegranate seed, go back to the upper world, and bemoan her fate. Or, accept what has happened knowing she can't change it, and use the experience to her advantage by swallowing the pomegranate seed and, thereby, empowering herself.

I think mythology speaks to us about life. And I see so many aspects of this myth as being powerful in that respect. Life can suck and we have horrible things forced on us all the time. We didn't bring them on ourselves any more than Persephone brought this on herself. But, like Persephone, we have a choice on how to react. We can wallow in self-pity and think, "why me?" Or we can use the experience to make ourselves stronger. We can swallow our own pomegranate seeds and move on.

[Lily]

Tamara wrote: "we can use the experience to make ourselves stronger. We can swallow our own pomegranate seeds and move on...."

We can also use literature to explore the options available to life and take it from there as well -- whether to accept or to adapt or... How do we respond in each particular case? Others? What do we learn from them? The writer has chosen what he will document for us -- we can accept, ponder, put it in light of other things we think we know, ....

[Michael]

For those that read Metamorphosis, remember when Athena had baby Erichthonius in a basket cared for by three sisters who were forbidden from looking inside. Supposedly, that was because Erichthonius was divine, a child of a god. The sister that looked is then cursed by the personification of Envy.

The story of Demeter nursing and caring for Demophoon feels similar "I would have made your child immortal and ageless forever". I believe she had to stop because mortals had seen some secret part of his deification that was forbidden or would perhaps have been a weakness. It was forbidden knowledge, just like seeing Erichthonius was. Gods should not be seen by mortals (in their natural state?) without permission.

All of this, leads to the broader context of this Hymn to Demeter, the Eleusinian Mystery Cult. In the last few lines it says that she "revealed the conduct of her rites.. and taught the Mysteries." These rites and secrets gave initiates blessings in life and a much improved afterlife. They were a big deal and were apparently practiced for ~1,000+ years. Participants were sworn to secrecy and seemed to take that very serious so we don't know a lot about them but...

1. there were two different levels of initiates
2. two different ceremonies (one of them that involved a very long walk and took multiple days)
3. purfication rituals involving sacrificing piglets and torches
4. drinking a minty-barley beverage
5. being blindfolded or seeing (depending on your level)
6. a reanactment of the events described in this Hymn
7. a secret chamber where secret objects are moved around and things are revealed
8. mystic interpretations of life and death

Definitely, a fun hole to look explore and thinking of this as a religious text describing the secrets of life and death offers a different lens

[Michael]

Some art - https://www.pinterest.com/mstatenstuf...

[Michael]

Oh - a very simplified, Walt Disney version from 1934 that completely ignores the mother-daughter relationship (9 minutes) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zvnA...

[Tamara]

Michael wrote: "Gods should not be seen by mortals (in their natural state?) without permission..."

Yes, but Demeter does reveal herself in her divine state after she is confronted by Metaneira. She identifies herself as Demeter and then promises to teach them the rites after they have built for her a temple.

This speaking, the goddess changed her size and appearance,
thrusting off old age. Beauty breathed about her and
from her sweet robes a delicious fragrance spread;
a light beamed far out from the goddess's immortal kin,
and her golden hair flowed over her shoulders,
The well-built house flooded with radiance like lightning.
She left the halls. At once Metaneira's knees buckled.

Perhaps Demeter wants to teach them the rites as a reward. Is it possible she feels some guilt at replicating what the gods did to her by trying to appropriate/kidnapp another woman's child?

But regardless of her motives, the city of Eleusis did benefit financially because huge numbers of participants flocked to Eleusis in the fall to perform the Greater Mysteries, which lasted nine days.

[Tamara]

Michael wrote: "4. drinking a minty-barley beverage.."

BTW: the minty-barley beverage you mention was kykeon--the same drink that was offered to Demeter when she entered the palace at Eleusis. Scholars speculate that something may have been added to the potion during the rite--possibly the ergot fungus in barley--to induce some sort of psychedelic episode.

[Michael]

Edna St. Vincent Millay - https://allpoetry.com/Prayer-To-Perse...

If I read this poem correctly, a woman entrusts her dead daughter to Persephone to care for in the afterlife. I like how it continues the theme of separation of daughter from mother and the need to adapt to a new reality. If it were a movie, it could be a sequel to the original.

Prayer To Persephone
Be to her, Persephone,
All the things I might not be:
Take her head upon your knee.
She that was so proud and wild,
Flippant, arrogant and free,
She that had no need of me,
Is a little lonely child
Lost in Hell,—Persephone,
Take her head upon your knee:
Say to her, "My dear, my dear,
It is not so dreadful here."

[Michael]

Tamara wrote: "Michael wrote: "4. drinking a minty-barley beverage.."

BTW: the minty-barley beverage you mention was kykeon--the same drink that was offered to Demeter when she entered the palace at Eleusis. Sch..."

I'm imagining a moment in the ritual in which they come to this part of the story and then initiates drink up to follow the divine example and keep things moving forward.

Touching on hallucinogens or stimulants or other chemicals, I'm also imagining participants in Dionysian mysteries getting drunk on wine.

Demeter's refusal of her hosts' wine is probably reinforcing the distinction between the two cult practices.

[Roger]

Michael wrote: "Oh - a very simplified, Walt Disney version from 1934 that completely ignores the mother-daughter relationship (9 minutes) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zvnA..."

Intrigued, I watched this. I was struck by three things:

(1) Disney makes a proper hash of the myth. There's no Demeter figure. The agreement to split each year is just a compromise bargain between Persephone and Hades.

(2) Hades is made into a caped and horned devil figure from Christian imagination. His realm is a place of fire and dancing demons with pitchforks, not the cold, dark place that the Greeks imagined.

(3) Persephone's natural hairstyle is nothing like what was typical of women in the 1930s. It would pass muster today.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's not great, just a curiosity that they decided to make it

[Tamara]

There are several instances of irony in the hymn:

Persephone eats the seeds of death to emerge with new life.

Demeter’s initial response to her daughter’s abduction is ironic: she replicates what the gods did to her by trying to appropriate another woman’s child without consulting the mother. She doesn’t recognize the injustice of her action even though she claims she is doing it for the child’s own good.

When Hermes tells Hades to release Persephone, he claims:

For she [Demeter] is devising a great scheme to destroy
The helpless race of mortals born on earth,
Burying the seed beneath the ground and obliterating
Divine honors.

The irony is, of course, it is not Demeter who buried her “seed” beneath the ground. It is the gods who did so when they abducted kore to the underworld. As long as her “seed” is buried, she will not allow any other seed to grow.

Are there any other instances of irony?

[Susan]

Tamara wrote: "There are several instances of irony in the hymn:

Persephone eats the seeds of death to emerge with new life.

Demeter’s initial response to her daughter’s abduction is ironic: she replicates what..."

I think there’s something profoundly ironic in the gods using a beautiful flower, the very image of growth and sunlight, as bait to pull Persephone under ground:

“…as she played with the deep-breasted daughters of Ocean,/
plucking flowers in the lush meadow—roses, crocuses/, and lovely violets, irises and hyacinth and the narcissus/, which Earth grew as a snare for the flower-faced maiden/ in order to gratify by Zeus's design the Host-to-Many,/ a flower wondrous and bright, awesome for all to see,/
for the immortals above and for mortals bclow./
From its root a hundredfold bloom sprang up and smelled/ so sweet that the whole vast heaven above/
and the whole carth laughed, and the salty swell of the sea./
The girl marveled and stretched out both hands at once/
to take the lovely toy. The carth with its wide ways yawned/ over the Nysian plain; the lord Host-to-Many rosc up on her/ with his immortal horses, the celebrated son of Kronos/; he snatched the unwilling maid into his golden chariot/ and led her off lamenting.”


Perhaps in a way the flower could be seen as partaking of darkness in its growth from a seed planted in the earth and/or the roots that spread below ground?

[Ian]

There used to be a “Nature-Mythology” interpretation of the story as reflecting the transition from winter (Persephone in Hades and Demeter withholding the fruits of the earth) to spring. That was how I initially encountered it in childhood. Later I found that early in the twentieth century the Swedish classicist Martin P. Nilsson pointed out that this makes sense in Northern Europe, but not for Greece; the Eleusinian Mysteries preceded by a month the autumn sowing, and the barren season was the summer drought. (Persephone is seized in the spring.) Outside the hymn there is a distinct tendency to connect Eleusis with the origin of grain cultivation as the gift of Demeter, from whence it was spread to the rest of the world. The agricultural cycle is certainly relevant, but its relationship to the hymn is obscure: a critical passage is damaged in the manuscript.

[Tamara]

Susan wrote: "I think there’s something profoundly ironic in the gods using a beautiful flower, the very image of growth and sunlight, as bait to pull Persephone under ground:.."

I think it is ironic for the reasons you state. I also think it is tied in with the story of Narcissus who dies because he cannot tear himself away from his own reflection in the pool of water. He falls in love with his image and dies.

Persephone also experiences a "death" of sorts when she is lured by the narcissus. But in her case, she is able to emerge with new life--unlike Narcissus.

I also think it is ironic that her grandmother, Gaia (Earth), grew this unusually large and attractive narcissus to lure the girl to the underworld. We are told she did it to "gratify" Zeus, but I'm wondering if there is more to it than that.

[Tamara]

Another example of irony I see is in the case of the baby, Demophoon. Demeter chastises Metaneira for her "folly" when the mother sees her baby in the fire. Demeter claims she was purging him of his mortality, turning him to a god to receive "unfailing honor." In other words, she was trying to kill off his mortality by making him immortal.

If we compare that with what happens to Persephone, we get this: Persephone experiences "death," but unlike what happens to Demophoon whose transformation is interrupted, Persephone's transformation is uninterrupted. Hades had assured her she will receive great honors--the same thing Demeter had intended for Demophoon had she not been interrupted. Persephone assimilates the experience of death by swallowing the pomegranate seed. Her transformation is complete and she emerges with new life.

Demophoon, on the other hand, is inconsolable:

Gathering about the gasping child, they bathed
and embraced him lovingly. Yet his heart was not comforted,
for lesser nurses and handmaids held him now.

What looked like a death for Persephone turned out to be a new life. But in Demophoon's case, because his transformation was incomplete, he will experience death.

[Ian]

The comment on Narcissus strikes me as brilliant, but I don’t have any idea if the story is old enough to be in the background of the Homeric Hymn. But it might work the other way around, in framing the story of Narcissus. (I am away from my usual reference books.)

[Michael]

Ian wrote: "There used to be a “Nature-Mythology” interpretation of the story as reflecting the transition from winter (Persephone in Hades and Demeter withholding the fruits of the earth) to spring. That was how I initially encountered it in childhood. Later I found that early in the twentieth century the Swedish classicist Martin P. Nilsson pointed out that this makes sense in Northern Europe, but not for Greece; the Eleusinian Mysteries preceded by a month the autumn sowing, and the barren season was the summer drought. (Persephone is seized in the spring.)"

Joseph Campbell (Goddesses: Mysteries of the Feminine Divine, either summarizing or adding to Nilsson, explains it this way.

In the Greek summer, fierce heat dries up the vegetation, so during the summer the grain that was harvested in the spring was stored in silos in the ground. Hence the wealth of the culture is in and under the ground, in the domain of Hades or Plutus, the lord of wealth and the underworld. From there it was taken out and sown and dispensed to humankind.

[Michael]

Tamara wrote: "...What looked like a death for Persephone turned out to be a new life. But in Demophoon's case, because his transformation was incomplete, he will experience death."

Does the promise of a better afterlife given in the Eleusinian Mystery attempt to make up for the failed effort to immortalize Demophoon?

[Tamara]

Michael wrote: "Does the promise of a better afterlife given in the Eleusinian Mystery attempt to make up for the failed effort to immortalize Demophoon?.."

I think so. But I also think it shows something more.

The fact that Demeter orders a temple to be built so she can teach the Eleusinian rites suggests to me there is something else going on here.

As soon as the temple is built, Demeter enters it and goes on strike. She taps into her unique power as goddess of the grain to deny the earth its seeds, thereby causing a famine. She is intransigent, blackmailing the gods into giving into her demands. The question is why didn’t she do this sooner? She has had the power all along. Why wait until after the incident with Demophoon to use her power?

My reading on it is that Metaneira’s shock at seeing her baby in the fire in what looks like certain death triggers something in Demeter. We are told Metaneira cries out and “the great goddess heard her.” I think here Demeter recognizes that her action of appropriating another woman’s child is equivalent to what the gods did to her by appropriating/kidnapping her daughter. Seeing Metaneira’s distress reminds her of her own distress. She lashes out in anger, but maybe the anger is not directed at Metaneira. If she is so angry at Metaneira and the people of Eleusis, why would she want to reward them by elevating their city to be the center of a major cult?

All this suggests to me Demeter is not angry with Metaneira but with herself. I think the incident with Demophoon triggers Demeter into recognizing the wrongness of her actions. She comes to her senses, realizes she should not appropriate another woman’s child, and recognizes there can be no substitute for her own child. She gets back in touch with her godly nature, assumes her appearance as Demeter, and taps into her unique power to force the issue with the gods.

By running away from Olympus, disguising herself as an elderly woman, and trying to appropriate another woman’s child, Demeter temporarily refuses to confront and/or challenge the powers that caused her grief. It is only after she gets back in touch with her godly nature that she is able to confront them. Because she refuses to feed the powers that caused the separation from her daughter, she forces a resolution.

Thems my thoughts.

[Tamara]

Ian wrote: "The comment on Narcissus strikes me as brilliant, but I don’t have any idea if the story is old enough to be in the background of the Homeric Hymn. But it might work the other way around, in framin..."

Thanks for your comment, Ian. But I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the hymn framing the story of narcissus. Perhaps you can explain.

[Roger]

Tamara wrote: "Michael wrote: "Does the promise of a better afterlife given in the Eleusinian Mystery attempt to make up for the failed effort to immortalize Demophoon?.."

I think so. But I also think it shows s..."

Brilliant! Makes great sense.

[Tamara]

Roger wrote: "Brilliant! Makes great sense..."

(Edit: I forgot to thank Roger for his comment. Thank you, Roger.)

In the interest of full disclosure, I have spent a lot of time exploring all aspects of this myth.

I used to teach it years ago in my college level Women in Literature class. I would begin the class with a discussion and analysis of this myth and use it as the foundation for our exploration of the literature by women. It is such a rich myth with many of its themes resonating with later literature. My students loved the analysis and interpretation and encouraged me to write a book about it. So I did. In those days, publishing wasn’t as competitive as it is today. The book was picked up by McFarland (2002) right away, and Demeter and Persephone: Lessons from a Myth was born.

I feel a bit awkward mentioning my first book, but I didn’t want folks to get the impression that I was casually coming up with these interpretations off the top of my head. My reading of the myth is the result of research, hard work, familiarity with feminist literature, and gut intuition. Above all, I owe a lot to my former students for their encouragement and for sharing my love of this myth.

[Ian]

I simply meant that the death association of the flower in the Hymn may be prior to, and a suggestion for, the separate myth of Narcissus. Unfortunately I am in hospital, and can’t directly check the known chronology of that story. Wikipedia summarizes several non-Ovidian versions which may not work as well, and are scattered in time.

[Tamara]

Ian wrote: "I simply meant that the death association of the flower in the Hymn may be prior to, and a suggestion for, the separate myth of Narcissus. Unfortunately I am in hospital, and can’t directly check t..."

Gosh, Ian, I am so sorry to hear you're in hospital. I hope it is nothing serious and wish you a full and speedy recovery.

I don't know if we can ever figure out if the narcissus myth pre-dates Homer. But I can't help feeling that it isn't simply a coincidence that there is specific mention of a narcissus as opposed to some other flower. I think it must somehow be connected with the myth.

Meanwhile, don't bother yourself with all this. Just focus on getting well.

[Susan]

Ian wrote: "I simply meant that the death association of the flower in the Hymn may be prior to, and a suggestion for, the separate myth of Narcissus. Unfortunately I am in hospital, and can’t directly check t..."

Hope you’re feeling better soon, Ian. Thanks for sharing your myth expertise with us