Isles of the Emberdark (Cosmere: Sixth of the Dusk #2)[August 1, 2025]

[Nirkatze]

Oh, and the differences--every page starting with Part 2 in the physical edition is pitch black, with white type... it's very striking.

[Diana Stormblessed]

Nirkatze wrote: "I'm curious--what versions are people reading? I have both the ebook and physical, and have been comparing them... and finding some interesting discrepancies. Like the Author's Note is called Prefa..."

I’m doing the kindle. I have the physical but I haven’t cracked it open yet 🙈

[Narilka]

Nirkatze wrote: "I'm curious--what versions are people reading? I have both the ebook and physical, and have been comparing them... and finding some interesting discrepancies. Like the Author's Note is called Prefa..."

I'm listening to the audio book. Still waiting for my physical book to arrive, haven't opened the ebook at all. They audio narrator describes each artwork in the book, which I find kind of odd. They are read off between chapters. There is one after Ch 8.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

That started happening a few books ago... I think especially with the Secret Projects, and recent Stormlight Archives books... as Dragonsteel has grown as a company, and included so much art in all their projects...

[Nirkatze]

There were some inconsistencies in the earlier Secret Projects, but nothing so big--a few typos... but not a piece of art misplaced, or title differences, so I was surprised.

I just listened to Sixth of the Dusk and I'm really curious to see how the tale was edited for the book... I'm hoping to be able to comment more about that once I start. I'll be eye-reading, so I'll keep an eye out for all the Cosmereness too!

[Nirkatze]

Okay, so even though I'm knee-deep in other eye reads, I couldn't help but start this one...

Prologue (view spoiler)[Starling is super cute! So if 30 is like 8, then 57 years later she'd be like... 18ish, maybe?

I wonder if this scene takes place on Yolen, the dragon homeworld--and Hoid's homeworld... and I also wonder why Starling's parents aren't around.

It's also interesting that Frost is one of the few people we've heard of speak of Adonalsium as a whole, and its teachings like a religion...

I haven't read Dragonsteel Prime, but I remember the name Frost as being one of Hoid's correspondents in the Stormlight epigraphs. They're buds... as much as Hoid has buds... (hide spoiler)]

Through Chapter 2, after the first Dusk flashback. I definitely noticed some changes from the original short, and looked at my copy to confirm--(view spoiler)[the bits about Wayfinding, looking at birds, testing the waves, etc, were added, and some other wording tweaked. The notebook use and explanation was also added--the original story only mentioned it later when they come across someone else's notebook.

The poignancy of the first chapter, with Dusk feeling like yet another relic in the museum/preserve, really hits... I'm not of Native lineage, but I live in a place where the stamp of colonization is more recent than others, and the fight to keep roots and culture alive is an everyday thing... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 3 Lots of cross-Cosmere theorizing here... I think I nested the worst spoilers but if you haven't at least read Stormlight beware... (view spoiler)[The storyteller--gotta love a good story! It's nice that it's not Hoid telling it too. With a story like that (not to mention the cover art featuring a snake), Cakoban and Dakwara must've been real at some point, and the story will be important...
"He blinded it with the light of a torch"--I wonder if that's investure related? Same with how Patji "rose from the ocean and erupted with blazing red light"--First of the Sun's investure comes from an avatar of Autonomy, perhaps that is its arrival?

"He sent it to protect his daughter and his kin for a hundred years"--first thing that pops into my mind here is Dragons (thank you prologue, for putting them on my mind) but this is the origin story for Dusk's people... but I wonder if it is also their arrival story, of how they got to First of the Sun? Traveled instead of created on-site? Cakoban's "followed a brilliant shooting star" and "sailing on an endless sea" sounds like worldhopping, but not really in a way we've heard of before...

Now I'm thinking of all the different ways we've seen for worldhopping... The most common way seems to be using specific (mostly stationary) Perpundicularities to move between the Cognitive, Spiritual, and Physical realms--we've seen Nazh, Khriss, the Stormlight gang, even (view spoiler)[Kelsier (hide spoiler)] use this method...

There are specialized Perpendicularities, like (Stormlight 5) (view spoiler)[how the Iriali migrate with... (hide spoiler)] but those are mostly the same thing except for time and randomness...

There's how Lightweavers & Elsecallers can travel into Shadesmar, and how the humans (Stormlight 1? 2?) (view spoiler)[traveled from Ashyn to Roshar, or how the souls of the Radiants & Fused etc get between Braize and back--but that's not the whole of the people, soul & mind or just soul, without physical bodies (hide spoiler)]... but those probably can't be used for super long distances...

Only thing I can think of for actual star & space hopping without using the Realms that we've seen so far is the Shards themselves... there's even a part (Stormlight) when an Avatar thinks about what it would take to keep bodies alive in the space between worlds, in the physical realm...

The Ones Above not showing their faces or skins sounds like Southern Scadrians--though it could just be a scare/mystery tactic. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 4 (flashback chapter) (view spoiler)[references to Dusk's medallion were added. I don't believe that existed in the original at all, a medallion of Cakoban. Seeding its importance.

Having the Ones Above already introduced in the "present day" storyline as creepily mysterious trade people from space gives more context when they're first name-dropped in the flashbacks... reading the novella cold the name is a "what's that? more!" curiosity catch.

I also think it's interesting how the story also shows bits of modern culture which have been accepted to the point of becoming part of traditional culture--like how Dusk's clothing is modern, but considered the outfit of a trapper... when long ago they would've gone shirtless. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 5 (view spoiler)[Having read the novella, I'm sad about Kokerlii having died... that's another "What's that? More!" curiosity catch... what happened to her? Crazy guy on the subway with a mysterious tattoo! Are these clues a little more heavy-handed than normal? (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 6 (flashback)--I didn't notice any major additions or changes in this, besides the opening being tweaked to make a better chapter open instead of just transitional paragraph. (view spoiler)[I'm curious about the "one woman trapper"--Yaalani the Brave. We probably won't get more on her, but I'm curious. I also want to know more about Vathi, which I don't believe we get in the short... yes, she's a clerk, yes, she studied as much as she could about the islands, but was she one of the people the Company hired specifically because of her research on Patji? How far did she go in trying to become a trapper or learn about them before joining? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7 (view spoiler)[I like how Vathi knows Dusk well enough to let him know when a statement is actually a question. Nice of her! I also like how she explains it, instead of just restating her statement as a question exasperatedly.

Seeing the Ones Above--with strange ribbed metal in their cheeks--still makes me think Scadrians. Mistborn Era 2... book 3? connections--(view spoiler)[the metal could be translation coins. (hide spoiler)] The "time for masks to be down" also sounds like Southern Scadrians. The talk of their "masters"--even though this is far in the future, makes me think of Ghostbloods. Especially their leader. I'm really curious to see what light Mistborn Era 3 sheds on this book, similar to how Stormlight 5 led up to Sunlit Man, even though it was published before...

Though there's proof in Stormlight that Ghostbloods already had contacts on First of the Sun--If I remember correctly,(view spoiler)[Mraize has an Aviar... which Shallan calls a chicken... (hide spoiler)]

Answers to what happened to Kokerlii--an Aviar plague--and how suspicious is that? Yet another "opportunity" for the Ones Above to demonstrate their usefulness. I'd've gone another step beyond Dusk's insinuations to them causing these events, not just delaying the cure to make it hit better.

I like the comparison between how putting Nature in a box is no longer nature, and if you enclose the wind it is no longer wind.

Oooh, "other alien" is in shardplate! It's a shard-spacesuit! Oooh!! Pitting Rosharans (using gem analogies, definitely Rosharans) against Scadrians (ha! Confirmed) and probably Ghostbloods makes me wonder if Shallan doesn't start (or join?) a long-lasting group whose purpose is to counter the Ghostbloods...

Although I guess the Scadrians could just be Autonomy's influence. The push for expansion is very her. And First of the Sun was originally invested by her.

AND A SHARDGUN TOO!

Okay, I'm really curious about the state of the world by this point in time... if the Rosharans are Out There and antagonistic to Scadrians--though, this isn't necessarily ALL Scadrians or even all Southern Scadrians, just Scadrians who are in a specific factions... this definitely takes place after Stormlight Arc 2 is completely over and done...

I'm trying to think of historical examples of small countries with limited resources that managed to stay neutral by selling to both sides... perhaps by not only controlling, but having the power to destroy that resource?

For a second I thought the white-haired corpse would be Starling... They're caught between two megapowers right now--what's a third? (hide spoiler)]

[Narilka]

Nirkatze wrote: "Are these clues a little more heavy-handed than normal?"

It's something I've seen as a complaint on Reddit - that Sanderson seems to do a lot of hand holding in his recent works, like W&T and this one.

[Nirkatze]

Maybe similar to how he purposefully makes his prose more accessible? Then again, if we want to hunt or be confused by clues, we're also reading Malazan right now.

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 8 (flashback) (view spoiler)[The opening was adjusted again to make it a better chapter-opener, and some more questions from Vathi were added, asking for more information about Sak.

The whole bit about Cakoban, tradition and heritage was added too. The original conversation jumps right from talking about how disasters lead to progress and moves to how if the first trappers had considered it too "foolish" where would they be today?

One small difference--the chapter ends with Dusk thinking about the two hundred soldiers and base camp established on Patji, with the line: He had to find a way to stop it. In the original, there is no italics, and it has the additional line: Somehow...

The changes make for a stronger ending and more forceful character, I think... (hide spoiler)]

I'm also thinking, after reading that chapter, that the clues might be more obvious to someone who has read Sixth of the Dusk originally--seeing the changes, especially things added, makes it pretty obvious what is going to be important later on...

Also sidenote--I'm loving reading this on my new Kobo Clara color. It's great to be able to enjoy the colored artwork!

Chapter 9 (view spoiler)[And the medallion mentioned again--the one that doesn't exist in the first published version of the novella. I wonder if he gives it to her instead of the feather? Looking forward to finding out.

It's interesting that Dusk only seems to get talkative when Cakoban comes up. The rewrites are kind of turning him into a Cakoban superfan. Which... if it is his backstory for why he became a trapper, would make sense. But I kind of like the old version more. I just can't see Dusk being... bubbly... over something. (hide spoiler)]

[Narilka]

Oh, is that how you spell her name? The audio narrator's pronunciation sounds like "sock" to me lol

I wonder if Brandon based aviar off his own parrot.

[Nirkatze]

Yup! Sak! I can see it sounding like Sock, lol.

I didn't even think about his parrot! Parrots? Certainly has to be... or at least the inspiration for including birds as sources of investure, and part of what drew him back to the story...

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 10 (flashback)--this chapter is exactly the same, as far as I can tell.

Chapter 11 (view spoiler)[LOL I love when Dusk takes not to never punch the senator who supports his idea about the Darkness sounding like the stories. Though on the other hand, it feels a little out of character for a humor moment.

Why didn't they get the Trappers in on the first expedition in the first place? Seems like right up their alley, not just Dusk's. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Really interesting reading your spoiler up to here Narilka--starting new here or having read the novella previously really makes for different reading experiences. It's also making me curious which talents all of the random aviar we see all over the place have--in the novella, only two are introduced: (view spoiler)[Sak's, to see dead bodies in warning, which by now seem to have evolved into a bit of future telling, and Kokerlii's, to hide minds from hunting predators.... the mind-hiding talent seems to be a very common one, and the base-talent needed for anyone who goes to the Pantheon islands... I wonder if that's not also what the Ones Above might be after--if the Aviar can hide their presence in the Cognitive realm, it would be like... a cloak of invisibility against spies in that realm, or spren spies, or something like that... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 12 (flashback) Opening quote reworded (view spoiler)[in a way that restates Dusk's ending line in the last flashback.

There's a few lines added when Vathi figures out Sak's secret, and Dusk is avoiding responding to her musings. Dusk thinks It had to do with the pool of course. He would never speak of that to her. For she was not a trapper.

A word change--"herbivores" and "prey" replaced the word "krell"--I guess getting rid of fantastical terms made the narrative more clear.

The ending was also edited to make a better cliffhanger. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 13 (view spoiler)[More conversation about clothing, using it as a symbol of how change isn't always bad, and how many may turn to traditions in the face of it...

The pool really does sound like a Perpendicularity--but the Darkness doesn't sound like the Cognitive or Spiritual realms that we know of from other Cosmere novels. Are there still more realms? And what Shard does this Perpendicularity spawn from? Autonomy might have left some influence here, but she's moved on since then... Or maybe a source of power outside the Shards?

Also, the further we get in Dusk's story here, the more curious I am getting about Starling, and how they will intersect. Sanderson's making us wait a long time to meet our next POV. Good thing he teased it in the prologue, so we'll want to meet her instead of being like "grr, new person no! gimme more Dusk!" I have that feeling sometimes with books that start a new POV in Part 2. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 14 (flashback) (view spoiler)[I'm starting to see a pattern in the openings, edited to remind readers of how the last flashback ended.

The name of the flower that kills the Trapper was changed from Patji's Finger to Cakoban's Finger. The exchange between Dusk & Vathi was also edited, to make him annoyed again at Vathi's ignorance about Cakoban.

It also adds him taking the dead Trapper's medallion as well as his machete and book. In the old version, he "left the rest of Sky's things alone."

The lesson about the medallions, each taken off the corpse of a dead Trapper, of course is also an addition. The only lesson Dusk gives Vathi is the one of the feather. The feather is the symbol, and the granting of the lesson. The feather has been demoted, and the medallion taken most of its place. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 15 It's really interesting seeing the past and present, what difference five years can make. (view spoiler)[Aww, little Rokke! I feel bad for her... I'm sure she'll show up again.

And now Dusk has a canoe to face the ocean... much like the start of his first flashback... Where technology fails, his skills will still work... except for not being able to feel the water at all. That must be weird. (hide spoiler)]

[Narilka]

It is fascinating to read about the differences between the two. I'm glad you're so detailed about it :)

[Nirkatze]

LOL then I'll keep it up... I like seeing all the backstage mechanics of writing etc...

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 16 (flashback) (view spoiler)[The opening line has one word changed--swapping the vague "beast" for specific "nightmaw."

A few more wording changes: Originally, Dusk "turned, then rushed over to Vathi" and now he just "rushed over to Vathi"--apparently he didn't need to turn. ;) Later, the phrase "a flock" was added in the sentence "How did one escape a flock of nightmaws?"

It's interesting how Dusk sees Vathi's gun as an opportunity to kill all the nightmaws. Dusk in general seems happy to adopt technology that would improve his life--like the compass or clothing--but still wants to be able to live his traditional life...

I'm also thinking about the significance of Patji being "father"--the hint that he doesn't hate, he tough-love teaches. Not just the individual trappers who die on his shores, but father to their people as a whole, for them to learn the important lessons to survive in the cosmere...

Even though there's a very nice provided description--beaked, bumpy leathery skin like a bird that'd lost it's feathers--I'd always imagined the nightmaw as a prowling great cat... this is definitely sounds more dinosaur-like.... I like how it's a bird-derivative though. Biologically, it makes sense... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 17 (view spoiler)[The lights corresponding to people and things in the physical world makes this sound like the Cognitive Realm... I was thinking in an earlier chapter that it seems different, since in the Cognitive Realm land areas are water, and water land, then what is this great sea on the other side of the pool? That there would be water on the other side would make sense, as that would be Patji, but it should be surrounded by land that mirrors the sea.

But then, Dusk doesn't need to explore his world... he needs to go find others. So maybe the "sea" is between worlds, instead of on it... the reflection of Outer Space...

I'm also thinking that the machine the Others Above gave them, that maps all Aviar, must function by locating them in the Cognitive Realm, and mapping them to the Physical Realm location... dots of light, dots of Aviar. Maybe their Cognitive Shadows are brighter because they carry investure?

The hints we get of Dusk's people's history, the stories that don't fit with their geography or archaeological record, really make me curious about where they came from. We know of at least two planets that experienced major upheavals in the Cosmere--Ashyn and Scadrial--and the Iriali are known for their Cosmere-spanning migrations... There's planets which had their Shards splintered, like Threnody--Sel too, and Yumi's planet, though without the same large cataclysms. It'd be cool if their origins are in a planet we've already been introduced to. Vast cities and wars...

I like that the question of where the ancestors came from is part of the focus of the story... Archaeology and hunting for the history in stories is a cool science. I remember reading research about how there was linguistic evidence that the Zuni tribe of New Mexico might've had connections to shipwrecked explorers from Japan... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 18 (flashback) one of the most edited chapters so far. (view spoiler)[The opening to this one has several changes. In the original, it is implied that Dusk found this place on his own, not that it is a place sacred to trappers. The original reads: A place men did not go. A place he had visited only once. The new version replaces that bit with This took them toward the sacred pool. Something he was never supposed to reveal to any but a trapper who had finished his apprenticeship.

The bit about the worms is also added. In the original, when Dusk explains that there are worms in the fruit, Vathi jumps straight to understanding out loud that it is a parasite that gives the gifts. The following is added: She grabbed a piece of half-rotten fruit nearby and pulled it apart. Tiny glowing worms squirmed in the flesh of the fruit. A similar light seemed to glow in her eyes as she realized.

So, this lets the older story connect to the glowing worms which allow buoyancy... the Pool Perpendicularity is the pool the Aviars come to to get their talent... and the worms that feed on the flower--kinda seems like they might actually come from the other realms, not just their shadow manifesting in one or the other... They're the source of investure, the remnant of Autonomy's visit here... They must originate in the Spiritual Realm then...

There's a short exchange of dialogue added next:
"I wish," he whispered, "everything could just stay the same."
"Nothing can."
"I can."
"No," she said. "Dusk, we're each a new person every day. The world changes, and is new each day, and we must change with it. That's the blessing the gods give us. The blessing to be able to become something new."

This conversation hits on Dusk's personal journey this book, and one of the book's major themes: the benefits and harm of change, and how to change to accommodate. Especially when changes are forced on you, like colonization. But it also makes Vathi a more forceful strong character. In the original, she comes across as more apologetic. Change is going to happen whether you like it or not, I'm sorry. In this edit, she sounds more convicted. Change is coming, whether we like it or not, so I'm going to grasp it and make it work for me.

More edits. This paragraph:
As he entered the stream, his visions of death finally vanished. No more corpses bobbing in the water, lying on the banks. Sak had realized what was happening.
is replaced with this one:
He waded further into the stream and turned back to his birds once more. Kokerlii squirmed in Vathi's grip, but Sak met his eyes. She knew what was happening.

A lot of authors talk about editing passive voice "had realized what was happening" into active voice "She knew what was happening" to make stronger writing... Having the eye contact also gives Dusk's sacrifice more layers... I guess Sanderson thought seeing the corpses was an unnecessary detail.

And more additions--this line is in the original: The lake was not deep. Two or three feet. Even crouching, it didn’t cover them completely.

The new adds the following: While submerged in that frigid water, Dusk thought he saw something... glowing butterflies...
And an impression. Like words.
Well done.

Adding those connections to the new story, and also making Patji an active force instead of just a belief. I also like that his words are those of a lesson-teaching father. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 20 (flashback) A lot of edits in this bit too. Makes sense, since this is the end of the flashbacks. (view spoiler)[Chapter 19 was so short I really don't have anything to say about it, except that I want the little bird who lost her trapper to get adopted by Dusk already. Stop teasing us!

Anyway, some edits at the beginning--the first paragraph was split, and the following lines added: Dusk felt... awed at seeing it. And disbelieving, as if he expected it to rise up and attack him.
His people... they really could tame this island, couldn’t they?

Emphasizing the changes again...

The following bit: These people bowed to Vathi, showing her more deference than Dusk would have expected. They drew hands from shoulder to shoulder as they started speaking—a symbol of respect. Foolishness. Anyone could make a gesture like that; it didn’t mean anything. True respect included far more than a hand waved in the air.
But they did treat her like more than a simple scribe. She was better placed in the company than he’d assumed. Not his problem anymore, regardless.

Is edited down to: These people bowed to Vathi, showing her more deference than Dusk would have expected. She was better placed in the company than he’d assumed.

So the later line: From what he’d seen of people from the homeisles, they could fake emotion as easily as they faked a gesture of respect. is edited down to end with they could easily fake emotion and the reference to faked respect removed.

Plays up Vathi's strength and deletes a bit which undercuts her. Especially since the last chapter brought up a challenge to her political power...

These two paragraphs are combined and the bolded part deleted: “That machine is deathants!” he said. “A den, a . . . Bah!” How could he explain?
He couldn’t. In his anxiety, words fled him, like Aviar fluttering away into the night.

Jut tightens up the language again. The simile makes the point more than a needed beat.

The following paragraph is expanded to a few: Nothing happened. They wouldn’t speak to him. Finally, he started to feel foolish. He turned back toward the trees, and continued on his way. His assumptions were probably wrong. After all, the corpses were gone. Everything could go back to normal.
...Normal. Could anything ever be normal with that fortress looming behind him? He shook his head, entering the canopy.

New version: Nothing happened. They wouldn’t speak to him. Finally, feeling foolish, he stormed off a second time. Once he reached the tree line, he checked a few rocks for dangers, then settled down. In the shadow of a dead sea monster, during the light of dawn, he slumped forward.
Kokerlii chirped at him, turning his head one way, then the other, then he chirped louder, imitating the way Dusk would whistle sometimes⁠—a thing that often made Dusk happy. Today, that wasn’t enough.
Dusk stared across the shore, which was empty of his corpse.
His assumptions were . . . probably wrong. Everything could go back to normal . . . To normal? Could anything ever be normal with that fortress looming in front of him? He forced himself to his feet and entered the canopy.

More slight wording changes. I think they just change the atmosphere a bit, tighten up the flow. Dusk's soliloquy explanation is shortened down to one paragraph from two, though I think I prefer the original:

“It’s a trap, you see,” he whispered. “The Ones Above have rules. They can’t trade with us until we’re advanced enough. Just like a man can’t, in good conscience, bargain with a child until they are grown. And so, they have left their machines for us to discover, to prod at and poke. The dead man was a ruse. Vathi was meant to have those machines.
“There will be explanations, left as if carelessly, for us to dig into and learn. And at some point in the near future, we will build something like one of their machines. We will have grown more quickly than we should have. We will be childlike still, ignorant, but the laws from Above will let these visitors trade with us. And then, they will take this land for themselves.”

The new one seems a bit more direct in a "just in case you don't get it" way--“It’s a trap, you see,” he whispered. “The Ones Above have rules. They can’t conquer us unless we’re advanced enough. Just like a man can’t, in good conscience, attack a child. So they have left their machines for us to discover. When we poke and prod at it, we will find explanations inside of how the device works, left as if carelessly. And at some point in the near future, we will build something like one of their machines. We will have grown more quickly than we should have. We will be childlike still, ignorant, but the laws from Above will let these visitors conquer us.”

One line added: Dusk had arrived. At morning.

Well, that works in three layers. Dusk's birth. Them arriving at the fortress. And of course, the metaphorical Dusk of their people. Which I'd already gotten from the reference to dawn when they arrived at the fortress. Just one more example of Sanderson being very explicit with themes and clues in this entry.

When Vathi comes out later, she holds up the mating feather plume that Dusk handed her with the lesson "is this too easy?" But instead of finding his own threadbare feather from his own first lesson in return, Dusk digs the dead trapper's medallion out of his pocket. Instead of comparing the two feathers: Vathi held hers. Old and new. It compares the medallions: Vathi fished out hers. Two medallions. Two sides. Both indicating the same thing. I like the feathers better, but the medallions are a Thing in this book.

One line deleted from their conversation: “They may be cunning,” he said. “But they have not lived on Patji. We will gather the other trappers. We will not let ourselves be taken in.”

It's a shame they didn't gather the other trappers. That that line was deleted, and that concept deleted... but then Dusk wouldn't've had this whole journey or spot of importance. This is a solo journey story. Makes me wonder what the other trappers are up to now though, retired as they must be... Are they adapting better? Worse? I'd like to see a scene similar to the one Dusk describes, of coming across another trapper on Patji, meeting eyes, and turning and going the other way... but that happening on the street in a city. Or going out and getting drinks to talk about the old times, and getting completely smashed. But Dusk isn't one much for talking.

There's also several references to how things smell different in this part of the story, which hit me. Scent is a powerful evoker of thought and memory, but is not often included in written descriptions. (hide spoiler)]

And that's the end of the flashback comparison journey! Thank you for reading! lol Probably be commenting less going forward.

[Nirkatze]

I think I got caught up with everyone's spoliers through the end of Part 1.

re: Well of Ascension/Pool--we learn more about these in Stormlight 5, Cosmere knowledge and spoilers for that, as well as Mistborn: Secret History--(view spoiler)[these pools are Perpendicularities, areas where you can access each of the different realms: Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. Most of them are connected to Shards, but not all. If a Shard spends a lengthy amount of time in one spot a pool starts to form. Avatars have some control over where they form. In Stormllight, one of the pools is in the Horneater mountains--I can't remember if that's Cultivation's or Honor's--and Odium's pool moves around... Usually a pool would disappear if the Shard leaves the area/planet, but Autonomy has some weird stuff going on with how many different planets she's left her fingerprints on, and it seems to carry over to her Perpendicularities too...

The Well of Ascension was a Perpendicularity Pool formed out of Desctruction's power, kept imprisoned in one place by Preservation... I don't remember if Preservation's pool is also mentioned, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is in Southern Scadrial... (hide spoiler)]

I love how Iain geeked out over the same stuff I geeked out over.

@Narilka, re: novella ending--it definitely ends right at that moment: the future left uncertain but with a ray of hope. Part of the reason I'm so excited to see this follow-up. I hope my flashback comparisons helped with some of that memory jogging!

I'm so excited to jump into the totally new material now... though I'm anticipating I'll open the first page of Part 2 to find Starling and be like "no! More Dusk!"

Oh hey, if anyone wanted to listen to the audiobook and didn't buy it, I'm pretty sure it's on Hoopla. It's on mine anyway, as are all the Secret Projects.

[Diana Stormblessed]

I’m not very far in right now. I started it a few days ago, but only got a couple chapters in and finally had time to really go through it more last night. I’m about 15% in. I gotta say I’m not loving this one as much as other Sanderson books. I loved six of dusk because of the tone and the way the story played out, but I find that the cut between five years ago and the modern world is very jarring and takes me out of the story.

[Narilka]

Nirkatze wrote: "Chapter 17... I remember reading research about how there was linguistic evidence that the Zuni tribe of New Mexico might've had connections to shipwrecked explorers from Japan"

I believe that our ancient world was a lot more connected than current archeological/historical dogma will allow for and is ever so slowly changing. That is a really cool unrelated tidbit. Kind of like there is hard evidence of Vikings in the New England area. I didn't take the anthropological angle to the first section, which is a neat idea.

I absolutely feel conflicted on a personal level about the book's theme of (view spoiler)[modernization and progress because where I live is undergoing major construction projects that is IMO ruining the land and chasing away the wildlife that I love. I wish it wasn't so destructive. I heavily empathize with Dusk. (hide spoiler)]

I have about an hour and a half left.

[Narilka]

Nirkatze wrote: "re: novella ending--it definitely ends right at that moment: the future left uncertain but with a ray of hope. Part of the reason I'm so excited to see this follow-up. I hope my flashback comparisons helped with some of that memory jogging!"

It helped. I thought it was odd that the novella just ended, on a sort of cliffhanger and that I had missed something. But nope! That's how it actually ended before. I definitely get why fans had been hoping for a sequel for so long. That would've been a very unsatisfying ending.

[Narilka]

Nirkatze wrote: "Chapter 20 (flashback)..."

Looks like he fixed some issues where he mixed tenses. Sanderson usually writes in third person past tense. There was a present tense mixed in that he edited out. I probably would've totally missed it if I hadn't recently read a book in present tense and then you typing up the lines. I definitely did not catch that in audio. For the curious, (view spoiler)[Original: He shook his head, entering the canopy.

New: He forced himself to his feet and entered the canopy.

Entering vs entered fixes the mixing of tenses. (hide spoiler)]

[Narilka]

Nirkatze wrote: "re: Well of Ascension/Pool--we learn more about these in Stormlight 5, Cosmere knowledge and spoilers for that, as well ..."

You know what? I never caught that in Stormlight 5 either :) I had Mistborn Era 1 completely stuck in my head that it was my head cannon lol (view spoiler)[Since Vin never used the Well to travel, I literally thought that it was only a Shard's essence to let folks "ascend" which in those books let Vin have a moment of shardhood to fix the planet's placement before fading. I assumed that the Horneater Well would be identical. And it is! I just wasn't thinking broadly enough.

That was a "my bad" since the text never explicitly stated that dimensional travel was out - it just didn't mention it at all because those characters wouldn't have thought of it and I went with what those characters used it for as the only uses. Total reader fail lol

Even if my original thought had been all that a pool was, it would still be hella valuable and people would kill to control one. (hide spoiler)]

I feel silly to have missed that lol

[Narilka]

Diana Stormblessed wrote: "I’m not very far in right now. I started it a few days ago, but only got a couple chapters in and finally had time to really go through it more last night. I’m about 15% in. I gotta say I’m not lov..."

FWIW I didn't start really enjoying the story until I got into part 2. I found part 1 interesting and a giant prologue.

[Nirkatze]

re: Well of Ascension--Mistborn: Secret History spoilers (view spoiler)[In Secret History, Kelsier when Kelsier gets stuck as a ghost/Cognitive Shadow, he sees Hoid come through the Well, and then goes through himself into the Cognitive Realm--so that's one instance where we see it act the same as the Pools in Roshar... I'd need to reread it for more details though. He runs in to Khriss & Nazh, and I think they mention that that specific Perpendicularity isn't working properly anymore, but I don't remember why. Maybe because the power was used up, or maybe Hoid did something... (hide spoiler)]

Starting Part 1, Chapter 22, and there's a lot of tasty morsels here... (view spoiler)[I see what Iain says--I think Nazh is indeed a Cognitive Shadow... which makes for interesting conversation about how he got that way. And not just dying--people who are insanely invested, or who held a Shard for a while (and I'd assume the same for a Dawnshard), can maintain themselves as Cognitive Shadows after they die--like, they still have their Cognitive and Spiritual parts, and just lost the bit from the Physical Realm. There're even examples of people coming back to life (and even being able to procreate) if like, nailed to a physical body--think of the (Stormlight) (view spoiler)[Heralds (hide spoiler)] or (Mistborn) (view spoiler)[Kelsier (hide spoiler)], even the Returned on Nalthis (Warbreaker--really gotta reread that) are technically Cognitive Shadows in a body. But they usually require some sort of maintenance with a supply of investure--unless they already started out insanely invested.

Nazh is from Threnody though, where there're all the ghosts (Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell)... so I wonder if he's like a super Threnody version... he's called a "shade" which would be on par for wording from that world, especially with how "bringing one on board is suicide"--doesn't the Threnodian shades' touch kill?

I love the conversation about his hair. I'm totally imagining Nazh as John Cho in Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon/Murderbot now:(view spoiler)[
(hide spoiler)]

I'm also really curious about why Starling would be exiled. The line: "You were trained by one of the most obtuse, crass men in all of the cosmere, Star." Doesn't sound like Frost to me (albeit we haven't had much page-time with him) but it would match Hoid to a tee. Maybe could also be Xisis--though again, not much screen time. Ah, but she calls Hoid "Master Hoid" and apparently he is her teacher. Before he vanished. She and Sig could start a fan/complaint club. Canyou tell I'm typing in notes as I read? I keep having to delete things as they get revealed before the end of the chaper. Or is her bubbliness "conduct unbecoming of a dragon" or something? I'm sure we'll find out. And it'll be some fun twist. Random note--also interesting that cosmere isn't capitalized. Totally thought it would be.

I love the cosmeric mash of technology:
・Rosharan antigrav technology--my first thought was lashings, but then I remembered the floating/flying device that Navani pioneers with fabrials. I don't remember if Rysn's chair came first or second to that.
・aether spores from the Dhatrian planetary network for thrust and engine power--These sound like the spores from Tress's planet, especially since Xisis is the ship's owner (though Xisis is studying spores so could have moved on from there). But does that mean that Lumar is in the same solar system/planetary network as the Aether of the Night people, like Aditil? Just different planet? That would make it the... third? system we know of so far with multiple inhabited planets in the system. After Roshar and Yumi's planet system...
・a Scadrian composite metal hull--makes sense that metal work would be Scadrian. But what functions? Reducing friction? Pushing away obstructions?
・All it was missing was an Awakened metalmind--Nalthian tech seems to be big in computing. The tablet in Tress is Nalthian. Kind of cool to think that Breaths have been used to science out something that sounds like AI.
・Lodestar--I was thinking it sounds like a fabrial, with a split gemstone... but it's definitely described as video game controller-like. Cosmere smartphones!

And for the crew, you have a locked dragon (probably) from Yolen as L.T., a ghost Threnodian mapmaker and explorer--navigator?, an engineer from Dhatri with a dead Aethyr symbiote, a lawnark mechanic from ??, a ship's doctor who is an Aimian--not sure if these folks are from Roshar or not. And that's five. Three more we haven't met yet, including the captain.

Aditil's bright colors in her family's clothing makes me think of the Terris clothing... I wonder if she made a deal with Xisis?

Damn but I'm having fun with all the cosmere stuff. I imagine it's all background noise if you don't have all that knowledge... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 23 (view spoiler)[I like how Chrysalis has a feminine identity even if her body/dies don't work that way. Gender identity being separate from what one's gonads are, or if they have them. Just a little bit of subtle rep.

It's interesting that the Scadrians have become known as bullies across the cosmere... I wonder if that's Autonomy's influence...

Oh damn!! Crow is the captain!! I was wondering when it said Xisis was the owner of the ship if we'd get any Tress crossovers!!! Whoo!! (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 24 (view spoiler)[I wonder if the snake beasts are some of the Shadows Dusk saw in his journeys? If they're like spren, with their main bodies in the Cognitive Realm and only a huge shadow in the Physical... Loving the wayfinding stuff... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 25 (view spoiler)[I wonder if this book takes place soon after Tress? Probably, unless Crow has an extended lifespan thanks to Xisis. Could the ship be the one the Sorceress left on? I was thinking that one planetary system not mentioned in the litany of tech on the mongrel ship was something from Sel... or I guess the White Sand world...

Last three crew members... Crow, ship's captain from Lumar with a "specific health problem", Ed the arcanist from--maybe Roshar? big floppy brimmed hats are from the Purelake region--and Leonore the pilot from Southern Scadrial.

Nope, Ed is from Silverlight, of Vaxillian heritage. I don't think we know anything about Vax yet. Doesn't ring a bell.

Nazh is definitely a Threnodian Shade, if someone falling into him would die. I wonder if your type of Cognitive Shadow is tied to your world of origin more than method of death? The beacon near Threnody named the "Knell" is a nice word choice. The toll of a bell in mourning, like a threnody is a song in mourning... Eldritch Entities born of a god's death... from the shattering of Ambition... I think that was (Stormlight) (view spoiler)[Odium's (hide spoiler)] doing?

ZeetZi's world... sounds a little like the world in Sunlit Man... really need to reread that. I don't remember feathered people but I don't remember much... The cataclysmic state of it would jive with something having been done to it... but the Aimians?Zee also sounds a lot like Hoid, with the snarkiness, metaphors, and love of stories. If he turns out to be Hoid in disguise I will not be surprised.

The Threnodite negative-investure entity makes me think of the great nature spirit in Princess Mononoke, but with more arms... (view spoiler)[
(hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 26 (view spoiler)[Zeetzi's comment--"Burn your eyes out in a flash?"--about negative investure coming in contact with their souls has interesting connotations! Does that mean that shardblades are negative investure? Is that only for dead spren, or for live ones as well?

And now I'm wondering if Voidlight, or anti-light, is negative investure... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 28 (view spoiler)[So Hoid is an outlaw in Silverlight, not surprising. Whatever the Grand Jesk is. And one of his full names is Cephandrius Maxtori...

I love that they toast with hot chocolate. Love a good found-family. Getting nice Firefly vibes. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 30 (view spoiler)[It's cool that it is an Iriali family who have a map. A cool little bit of cosmere lore, with the Iriali being a people who historically migrated across worlds on foot, long before all of this technology came around...

Ed's Arcanist uniform sounds kind of like a traditional fantasy wizard's garb.

Dammit Ed! Dammit Starling! Dammit Sanderson! Trailing a tidbit like this! I swear he was giggling as he wrote this line. Maniacal giggles. "Plus, he's the only known living shard who has performed the--" The what? The what?? What has Harmony done? Before or after what we've read so far?? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 32 (view spoiler)[Peakspren use "he" as a gendered version of "it"--another cool cultural tidbit. Just like Horneaters. Who live in peaks.

"Jesk" is referring to Hoid here... a word for something like Jester, maybe? Maybe derogatory? But what is Grand Jesk? In "a Silverlight outlaw in the Grand Jesk."

Tumak, a former emperor who looks Rosharan... I thought the name sounded familiar but searching my ebook files got nada.

So Starling is being punished for conduct unbecoming... basically for being nice and caring. Doesn't say much for Dragons. Kinda makes me want to read Dragonsteel Prime now. (hide spoiler)]

Through Chapter 33--end of Part 2! (view spoiler)[With Patji talking--but Ambition moved on--this, and the last Stormlight book... thinking about the Shards generating personalities of their own without an Avatar... or gods rising up outside of the Shard system? (hide spoiler)]

[Narilka]

I finished. That was enjoyable :) I have definitely forgotten a lot of Cosmere stuff that Nirkatze is mentioning. Anyway... (view spoiler)[So funny that Dusk lashes (physically but a throwback) those skull snakes to be his power. I also liked a lot how true he was to his heritage to basically act out their mythology to pacify the great beast. It was a nice heroes journey.

I'm also very glad he joined Starling's crew. I hope there are more sequels in the future or at least a novella. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 35 (view spoiler)[Starling thinks of the Scadrians "Everyone tried to leave them to their war, but..." and also says they're Malwish Scadrians... I've been wondering who they'd been warring against. Rosharans? But this makes it sound like it's South v. North Scadrial...

I'm also thinking about why everyone wants the Aviar--I was thinking specifically of the talents... but what was discussed earlier, that the Aviar can create a Nahel bond with anybody... seems like one of the easiest ways to get hands on investure. No negotiating with a spren (Roshar). No being born to it (Scadrial, Taldain). No bartering for breaths (Nalthis). No random chance/special families or years of study (Sel). No being bound to swapping body parts (Aethyr)....

It's so interesting how bits of the cosmere that were hidden for series and series of books are being laid out and explained here... All the explanations of how the Cognitive Realm is shaped by people, and the subastral sphere by each planet... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 36 (view spoiler)[And now this makes it sound like the war is between Scadrial and Roshar--with Dusk's planet being situated somewhere between them, and that being strategic... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 37 (view spoiler)[Excited to see Starling and Dusk finally in the same place! Interesting how the colonel calls him Sixth incorrectly--how Malwish, to not even ask... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Zooming along now--through Chapter 43. Much fewer specific references that I feel the need to explore... mostly up to plot (view spoiler)[now that Starling & Dusk have crossed paths, and the conflict with the Malwish is hitting highs.

Definitely feeling the colonial vibes. But also--prejudice, on both sides, due to subjugation, like with Zee & Chrysalis. Starling's talk about giving an individual a chance that a government does not deserve is a good point too.

I'm glad that Starling and Dusk both are thinking of how they can use the third party to try to gain some leverage. But they're also seeing the inevitability of the Scadrian advance... I don't see how Dusk's world will be able to avoid them... But hopefully they can find enough leverage to make a good deal out of it...

There was a reference to the Night Brigade--I had to go refresh my memory--they're the folks who've been chasing Sig in Sunlit Man... a military unit out of Threnody which employs shades of its fallen alongside its regular soldiers as troops. So makes sense they'd have interest in Nazh...

And see? Starling asks Dusk how he wants to be named. Assumptions making asses out of colonels.

I like the line "Wits were the best weapon when trapping...[but h]is wits didn't always come fully loaded." (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 44 (view spoiler)["You can't adopt him," thinks Starling.
Yes you can! I reply. You need a navigator. Here's a navigator!

From the pictures, Sak looks more like a raven than a crow. Size compared to parrot-like Rokke. Beak is also a bit thicker, blunter and rounded toward the tip. (hide spoiler)]

[Narilka]

Nirkatze wrote: "Assumptions making asses out of colonels.
"

That made me laugh out loud :)

Re CH 44 spoiler - mine is not much of a book spoiler, just tagging in case (view spoiler)[In my head, the aviar are all types of parrots and tropical birds. Sak I had imagined as a black cockatoo. I wonder how much input Brandon had with the artists. (hide spoiler)]

I haven't gone and looked a the art link. I should do that now that I've finished.

[Narilka]

Oh yea, the art is definitely different than what my imagination used :D

[Nirkatze]

I always thought of Sak (view spoiler)[as different from the rest of the Aviar, because she was a Homeisles bird--I thought of the regular Aviar as tropical birds, parrots, colorful too, but I honestly thought Sak was a crow--described as all black--until I saw the art--now I'm on raven side. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 48 (view spoiler)[So Starling was exiled for a specific event--one where she should have--according to her peers--given people up for draconic punishment instead of saving them. Here I was thinking it was her general behavior, but I suppose it makes sense for there to be a specific tipping point. I hope we'll get a heart-to-heart with Dusk at some point and learn more about that. Hoid must've been involved too... I wonder if it relates to one of those events she's thinking about, how he always says he doesn't get involved but can't stand aside and not help people...

Also a bit annoyed at Starling's superiority idea on written v. oral records... automatically assuming that Dusk's people's history isn't true just because her people don't have a record of it. And how she's been pinholed into "savior complex colonizer" by Dusk due to that... but at least she's trying, and Dusk recognizes that too. Really are no good answers for Dusk's people here... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 50 (view spoiler)[I like how these two chapters both ended with Dusk and Starling seeing their ancestors in the Spiritual Realm, even if Dusk isn't familiar enough to know what he's seeing. Oh and Hoid makes his cameo. Yay! (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 51 (view spoiler)[WTF! Hoid is married!! And she doesn't remember it??? Probably not Jasnah. Probably not anyone we know. But damn! And who are the twins? Things to look forward to.

Also glad to know that Sig is still around and kicking somewhere. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 52 (view spoiler)[The scene Dusk sees--he drank the investure, and he has a Connection to Cakoban--calling this memory from the Spiritual Realm, similar to what happens in Stormlight 5...

Cakoban's "friend"--probably Hoid. It's always Hoid. But he arrived on wings, and with a deep voice... so maybe not Hoid. Maybe Frost? Or another dragon?

I wonder if the "strange storm" was like an echo of a Highstorm? Or a disturbance from one of the Entities?

The Dakwara was one of Ambition's splinters... but it has been changed over time by the collective memory of Dusk's people... I wonder if that could save them, too? Reforge the splinters into something not-Evil? Similarly--Cakoban's surefire belief that the Dakwara--though daccwaga seems to be a category of creatures in their history, not a specific monster--anyway, his belief, and with him so invested, must've forced the Entity into shape...

I wonder where they came from, to carry golden light with them, and have a tradition of drinking it and using it in this way? Shame that the oral histories lost those bits... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 53 (view spoiler)[I love how... consistent Sanderson is with his magical science. That while on each planet investure manifests in different ways, the basic rules are similar enough that it lets fans conjecture. Like the Scadrian investure ray-gun thing sounds like it works on the same principles as the sound & light waves Navani experimented with in Rhythm. (hide spoiler)]

End of Book Three!

If anyone wants to see a good sketch of Sak & Rokke, the Book 4 section illustration is a good one--that's what made me think Sak was a raven instead of a crow--you can see how the beak curves down into a hook and it's thincker and blunter, her feathers are more fluffy, and she's a lot bigger than Rokke. Lessee if I can find it... gah, no luck. It's not online. But you can see the official artwork from the novella, and even in the older versions Sak looks like a corvid... the beak shape on the finer art especially.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Sixth_of_...

It is Sunday and I am sitting here with some nice tea and snacks until I am done with this book, dammit!

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 54 (view spoiler)[One of the things which make Dajer so despicable, even more than his condescension towards Dusk, is how his anger over the loss of his soldiers is based on how much paperwork he will have to do. Three more soldiers lost means a mandatory review. I hope the secret police lady strings him up by his balls. (hide spoiler)]

And finished! (view spoiler)[Dusk taking on the Dakwara was pretty awesome! The way he used the rotating skullsnakes made me think of doing maze challenge computer games.

And the solution they found was close to what I was thinking at the very beginning--they had to have a resource that everyone wanted, but instead of power to destroy it if conquered, it is a skill-type resource, that doesn't do any good if conquered... Why bother with a Navigator kept under duress, when you can just pay? At least on government levels. On individual piratical levels, it's a different issue.

Man, I want more books in this timeline... the future adventures of Captain Starling and her crew... smaller stories in the Cosmere... (hide spoiler)]

[Narilka]

Nirkatze wrote: "I love how... consistent Sanderson is with his magical science. That while on each planet investure manifests in different ways, the basic rules are similar enough that it lets fans conjecture.."

I remember watching one of his interviews where he stated that the whole Cosmere has an underlying set of rules it follows and that each planet uses them differently, making for some unique combinations. I imagine that will only grow in the future with space travel and cross pollination potential of magical abilities to transfer to regular people.

[Ann-Marie]

I started and haven't been engaged really, finally made it through Part 1 the other day. I only have a touch more than 5 hours left so I may pick it up soon to finish but I may not, TBD :)

[Narilka]

Ann-Marie wrote: "I started and haven't been engaged really, finally made it through Part 1 the other day. I only have a touch more than 5 hours left so I may pick it up soon to finish but I may not, TBD :)"

What's not working for you?

[Ann-Marie]

Narilka wrote: "Ann-Marie wrote: "I started and haven't been engaged really, finally made it through Part 1 the other day. I only have a touch more than 5 hours left so I may pick it up soon to finish but I may no..."

It hasn't grabbed me, not sure why? I found that I was bored at times.

[Nirkatze]

Hm. I definitely find that all the cosmere-related science made me excited, but if you're not all nerded up on that background, I could see how it would be tedious.

[Diana Stormblessed]

I’ve been avoiding this thread cuz I don’t want spoilers, but I’ve just reached the half way point. I’m eye reading so I knew I’d be slower but this is going slower than I expected. I eye read at night and this one just isn’t capturing my attention. I didn’t like the jarringness of part one with the flashbacks. Now in part 2 I’m just not interested in Starling. The raggedy crew thing seems cliche, and while I like the Captain Crow cameo I’m still not really interested. And the writing seems off. Did BranSan co-author this one? Cuz there are parts that just don’t sound like him. I think it probably gets better and I’ve heard great reviews of this book, but right now it’s one of my least favorite BranSan books and that makes me sad. I’ll keep reading and circle back. Still not going to read the rest of the thread yet cuz I don’t want spoilers.

[Nirkatze]

Seems like people in this BR are pretty divided. There're people who loved it (me) and people who couldn't get hooked... so you're not alone!

I did feel like the writing was at a lower common denominator than Sanderson's usual though. Some reveals too obvious. More hand-holding.

[Diana Stormblessed]

Nirkatze wrote: "Seems like people in this BR are pretty divided. There're people who loved it (me) and people who couldn't get hooked... so you're not alone!

I did feel like the writing was at a lower common deno..."

I’m glad it’s not just me 😅 The whole writing style just doesn’t feel like him. I know he’s been partnering with other writers lately so it leaves me wondering how much of this he actually wrote.

[Nirkatze]

I don't think he partnered on this one. He's been pretty open about his partnerships (even things like workshopping hard bits with specific authors, like Rithmatist sequel with Dan Wells) and I don't think he'd leave a name off the cover if they wrote part. But influences, sure...

[Narilka]

His writing has been feeling more YA to me with his last two books, this one and Wind & Truth. Maybe that's part of it? He still writes an excellent Sanderlanche though if you can push through. If it isnt working though don't be afraid to DNF or come back later. So many books and too little time :)