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All Around Dickens Year > Sylvia's Lovers by Elizabeth Gaskell 3: chapters 30 - 45 (end) (hosted by Claudia)

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message 51: by Erich C (new)

Erich C | 643 comments Sam wrote: "It may be too early to comment, but I am missing that undercutting voice of Gaskell in this third installment that made the world of this novel so much a mix of greys rather than blacks and whites...."

It's so interesting that you notice that, Sam. I sensed a shift as well. I was going to comment that the third volume has shown elements of the gothic, such as Sylvia's virtual imprisonment in her marriage and the dichotomy between the sterile/domestic and passion/nature. The less-nuanced characterizations also fit into that gothic mode.


message 52: by Erich C (last edited May 23, 2025 10:09PM) (new)

Erich C | 643 comments Kinraid has finally returned, as we knew he would. I have been thinking about what Gaskell's plot options were:

-The moment Philip doesn't keep his promise to Kinraid, it naturally follows that Philip will marry Sylvia with his hidden secret.
-Possible plot direction: Kinraid reappears the day after the wedding. That route not taken, an infant is introduced to make the situation more impossible.
-An officer is on the wreck. It could be Kinraid, but wouldn't that be too obvious? Or because it is so obvious, the reader will dismiss it?

I loved the scene with the wreck, but I was actually disappointed that Kinraid turned out to be on it. What if Sylvia had run into Kinraid on one of her cliff walks, out of the blue?

What would Thomas Hardy have done?


message 53: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Peter: the theme of return (nostos) is quite present in this novel (chapter 2, chapter 32 and 33), correlated with waiting for someone to return - Sylvia has been standing on the cliffs and unconsciously waiting for Kinraid to return, until she reluctantly agreed to marry Philip. Her longing for the unattainable was still there.

Petra and Sara: I doubt it would have been possible to annulate the marriage. However, a few connections... But the child was indeed his father's property and this made all the difference. Moreover taking such steps was not in Sylvia's Weltanschauung. It is a dead end.

Erich and Sam: There has been a Gothic feel more present since chapter 30 and indeed some Gothic techniques already seen in chapter 24. Elizabeth Gaskell had also written Gothic Tales. This shift has been noticed by those who studied the text.


message 54: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Erich C wrote: "Kinraid has finally returned, as we knew he would. I have been thinking about what Gaskell's plot options were:

-The moment Philip doesn't keep his promise to Kinraid, it naturally follows that P..."


It is time for me to re-read The Woodlanders. However, published in 1887, mentalities were different. Moreover Thomas Hardy was not as religious as Mrs Gaskell. That may also make a difference in her way of dealing with such issues.

The baby's loud voice from the first floor is perhaps the reason why Kinraid preferred a hasty departure.


message 55: by Peter (new)

Peter | 223 comments Sara wrote: "I had wondered how the exchange of a promise between Sylvia and Charley would stand in the face of her actual marriage, and Charley seems to think it has some weight. But, I would guess that become..."

Hi Sara

Thanks for your kind words. Claudia is offering us so many wonderful and insightful thoughts. I have read other Gaskell novels but never this one. I must confess to being tempted, more and more, to take a peek at the ending of the novel. So far, I’m resisting …


message 56: by Claudia (last edited May 24, 2025 09:39AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Thank you Peter! Just hold on!

Now we know that Kinraid's boarding HMS Alcestis was not as fateful as we might have expected, Peter!

Alcestis was the mythical queen of Thessaly, wife of King Admetus, who came to personify the devoted, selfless, woman and wife in ancient Greece. Alcestis is well known for her devotion to her husband in taking his place in death and her return to life through the intervention of the hero Herakles (better known as Hercules).

(Source: worldhistory.org)

https://www.worldhistory.org/Alcestis/


message 57: by Peter (last edited May 24, 2025 08:08AM) (new)

Peter | 223 comments I have no idea whether there is any connection from this 19C folk song to ‘Sylvia’s Lovers’ or not, but perhaps Gaskell was aware of it. While the plot of the novel and the plot of the song do not align I love discovering all the incidentals within a text.

The link between the name of the ship and the plot of ‘Sylvia’s Lovers’ is fascinating. Thanks for digging it up for us Claudia.

https://www.brh.org.uk/site/articles/...


message 58: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Peter wrote: "I have no idea whether there is any connection from this 19C folk song to ‘Sylvia’s Lovers’ or not, but perhaps Gaskell was aware of it. The lyrics of the song certainly reflect the plot of the nov..."

Thank you Peter! Quite striking similarities! Sylvia is - in the first volume, a daughter of nature and ballads. Ballads and folk songs were how stories were told among villagers and sailors and farm workers and journeymen who were not yet quite literate.

Elizabeth Gaskell was certainly inspired by Ruth, an epic poem by Crabbe (I quoted long excerpts in an earlier post)


message 59: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1141 comments Another thanks Peter. Lots of fascinating information there.
And what a chapter here. It’s difficult to add to what has been said already. A question for the future is whether Philip will somehow lose his will to continue given Sylvia’s statement that she will no longer be a wife to him. How will her future relationship with him affect his plans to gain prominence in Monkshaven? Will Philip even care now? Or will he ruthlessly rebound from this hit though he showed no sign of that in the dark parlor?


message 60: by Lori (new)

Lori  Keeton | 1094 comments Sue, to piggy back on your question about Phillip and Sylvia’s future: Phillip has used all of his cards to gain Sylvia and marry her. What else does he have left to keep her, unless it’s the baby? I can’t see Sylvia leaving the baby behind to go with Charley.

Sara, I must have misread the end of the chapter where Sylvia vows not to be a “wife” to Phillip. I did read it twice because I wasn’t sure if she was referring to Phillip or Charley. Looking back at the last quote from Claudia in her summary, I now see that she clearly says “neither you nor him shall spoil my soul…I will never see you again on this side of heaven.”

Has Sylvia made a choice to let them both go? Or is she giving up Charley because she knows she cannot be freed from Phillip?

The tension building over the last 4 chapters is palpable. I am on pins and needles as to how this is going to work out!


message 61: by Claudia (last edited May 25, 2025 11:44AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Lori wrote: "Sue, to piggy back on your question about Phillip and Sylvia’s future: Phillip has used all of his cards to gain Sylvia and marry her. What else does he have left to keep her, unless it’s the baby?..."

Lori, in my opinion Sylvia meant she will not live as a wife to Philip (how she means to do that is another story) and not see Charley again. Here is the passage from which I extirpated my quote:

"It goes hard wi' me, Charley, it does indeed. I'll just give yo' one kiss—one little kiss—and then, so help me God, I'll niver see nor hear till—no, not that, not that is needed—I'll niver see—sure that's enough—I'll never see yo' again on this side heaven, so help me God!


message 62: by Julie (new)

Julie Kelleher | 75 comments Claudia wrote: "I doubt it would have been possible to annulate the marriage. However, a few connections... But the child was indeed his father's property and this made all the difference. Moreover taking such steps was not in Sylvia's Weltanschauung. It is a dead end."

This really was an overwhelming chapter (in a good way) and I was particularly impressed by the end. I think Charley was right that Sylvia could have simply had her marriage annulled: they had a promise and Philip was clearly a cheat, which provides grounds for the original marriage to have been created on false ground, and Charley has a friend (his admiral) in high places.

But I am impressed--again!--by Sylvia here at the end of the chapter, with her resoluteness in the face of heartbreak: "there's things I will do, and there's things I won't." It reminds me of--Brontes again!--Jane Eyre, and the moment where I think I can say without spoilers that Jane puts her foot down and decides the person she needs to be true to is ultimately herself.

Yes, Sylvia would lose her baby if she left openly with Charley, but I agree with Claudia that it's more complicated than that: this is "not in Sylvia's Weltanschauung" (a word I had to look up!): she is deciding here and now who she is and what she must honor, and she's going to honor it, no matter the personal cost. Because betraying herself would cost more.


message 63: by Claudia (last edited May 25, 2025 12:23PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Julie wrote: "Claudia wrote: "I doubt it would have been possible to annulate the marriage. However, a few connections... But the child was indeed his father's property and this made all the difference. Moreover..."

I agree with your comment!

Great comparison with Jane Eyre!


message 64: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 34 – A reckless recruit

The sudden appearance of Kinraid and the painful confrontation with Philip leaves everyone petrified. Kinraid has gone unobserved.

Sylvia has retired to Bell's room, while Philip goes to work like a somnambulist, drawn to the shop by Coulson, who is worried about his partner. Everyone finds him strange; Hester spots some suffering in his attitude, but keeps silent. Philip is deeply embarrassed when he overhears a lady, the owner of a public house where Kinraid has been staying, talking about the rescue of the smack and the young officer who was saved from death aboard that ship. She mentioned his visit to Monkshaven, and his exploits on the battlefield, especially when he helped a senior naval officer escape from a French prison. Kinraid is now regarded by all as a true hero. Philip fears that his silence about Kinraid's imprisonment, and his failure to pass on a message to Sylvia, will be known to all if Kinraid ever reveals it. He is ashamed.

Suddenly, after seeing himself in a mirror and comparing his stooped figure to Kinraid's strong, upright frame, Philip decides to flee. He takes a loaf of bread from a stunned Phoebe, kisses his daughter goodbye after praying on his knees at her bedside, has a grateful thought that his Aunt Bell is now completely unaware of what has happened, kisses his wife's hand and leaves. The only thing he takes with him is a framed black silhouette of Sylvia, cut out by an itinerant artist.

Philip walks through fields and pastures, avoiding human presence. He takes one last disgusted look at the sea and walks, walks, walks, until evening. He is exhausted and "must find some shelter and food, or lie down to die". He finally meets a shepherd, who is almost frightened by his face and expression, but takes him to a nearby inn, where he faints.

Hepburn is taken care of by a Marine sergeant who is on a recruiting trip, and orders food for the lonely traveller. Philip is driven to drink more than he is used to and ends up accepting the King's shilling, the fatal token of recruitment. After a hard night, and although he is now sober and aware that he has been tricked into enlisting, he is resigned. He passively accepts his fate, whatever it may be, and harbours the secret thought that one day he will return home "handsome and loved". He now goes to a magistrate in the neighbouring town to be sworn in under the name of Stephen Freeman.


message 65: by Claudia (last edited May 25, 2025 02:21PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Kinraid, a hero

Through sheer force of circumstance and his adventurous spirit, Charley Kinraid becomes now a war hero.

The landlady of a small public-house tells, with much admiration and "fresh vigour", Kinraid's story, his war exploits, before a larger and larger audience, in the shop. This is another example of a story within the story! The storyteller is perhaps not fully accurate, as this is after all a second hand story, but the dialectal forms and her enthusiasm make the tale very lively.

We learn that, during a naval action in the current war, Kinraid had been imprisoned in France with his captain and fellow sailors, but had managed to escape and, above all, to break free his captain, aided by a noble French officer, an émigré to England, an episode inspired by the true story of the escape of Captain Sir William Sidney Smith. Captain Sir Sidney Smith became eventually an admiral and took charge of significant naval operations as Commodore Smith, assisted by the Frenchman who had helped him escape, Colonel Antoine Le Picard de Phelippeaux. (mentioned as “Philip” by the landlady of the public-house).

We guess that Admiral Sir Sidney Smith is the admiral mentioned by Kinraid in chapter 33, who could have helped him annulate Sylvia’s marriage. The phonetic confusion of the names “Philip” and “Phélippeaux” by the landlady of the inn enhances the contrast between a true hero, Phélippeaux, who rescued a British senior officer, and Philip Hepburn, who, cowardly and selfishly did not even reveal to Sylvia what happened to Kinraid.

In this context, Philip is sure that he will be outcasted by the popular feelings: “Philip shrank from the burst of popular indignation which he knew must follow. Any wrong done to one who stands on the pinnacle of the people's favour is resented by each individual as a personal injury; and among a primitive set of country-folk, who recognize the wild passion in love, as it exists untamed by the trammels of reason and self-restraint, any story of baulked affections, or treachery in such matters, spreads like wildfire.”


message 66: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Philip’s spectacular metamorphosis

Philip is now deeply ashamed and knows that he has lost his wife, the love of his life. He will never be loved by her again, and he also fears that he may soon lose his honour and reputation if Kinraid reveals to the whole town what Philip did (or did not do).

When he sees himself in the mirror, he has a brutal awakening. “The comparison [between him and Kinraid] drove Philip from passive hopelessness to active despair.”

Philip flees, having kissed his beloved daughter goodbye, experienced a final rejection from his wife and taken her framed silhouette as a souvenir.

Philip's walk through the fields and pastures, like an animal, frightened and hunted by his guilt and the fear that his guilt will be widely known, is magnificently told in all its tragic dimensions.

The cattle and flock he meets are personified, the cows have “great blank puzzled eyes” and the black-faced ewes, in his imagination, remind him of the inhabitants of Monkshaven watching him insistently. Remember how the cows and ewes are described in Chapter 1 (their look, their eyes)! The animals now all looked at him, as if they knew what he did. The shepherd even suspected that Philip had seen the Devil ("Old Harry").

Philip tires himself to exhaustion: “His only relief from thought, from the remembrance of Sylvia’s looks and words, was in violent bodily action”, but he dismisses any temptation to commit suicide.

His acceptance of the King's shilling and his enlistment in the Marines is symbolic: Philip wants to go far away and forget the past, he is not afraid of death, but he also wants to serve and return a hero just like Kinraid, and be loved by Sylvia again.

The red jacket is a powerful symbol: red as blood, but also red as Sylvia's former red cloak, which Philip reluctantly sold to her (chapter 3). While Sylvia is only the black shadow of her former self (the Bride Wore Black in Chapter 29, the black silhouette, cut in a vague semblance) and has relinquished her merry red cloak, Philip has left the shadow of his shop and his dark parlour and will wear the red jacket and white trousers of his uniform.

Stephen Freeman is Philip's new name. He wants to be free of his old life as a “free man”, but we also know that Stephen is the name of Christianity's first martyr.


message 67: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments The true story of Antoine de Phélippeaux

“In 1797, Antoine de Phélippeaux returned to Paris to free the English naval officer Sir William Sidney Smith from Temple prison. At the same time, he planned to rescue three royalists and two people that had aided in his escape. The elaborate plan included the construction of a tunnel from a nearby house to the prison and involved the help of a mason to chip away at bricks and a seven-year-old girl to serve as a decoy. Nevertheless, the plot failed and Phélippeaux had to reorganize.

This time, to communicate with the prisoners, he seduced the jailer's daughter. Phélippeaux procured false papers and presented himself at Temple prison as a police commissioner. After presenting a forged order, Smith and the others were released and left quickly by carriage. Notwithstanding, the carriage turned a sharp corner, injuring a child and causing a crowd to gather around the overturned carriage. Despite that, Phélippeaux forced himself and the escapees through the crowd. The authorities were notified of Smith's absence just as Phélippeaux, Williams, and others fled Paris.

The group slept in a safe house in the rue de l’Université, and the next morning Phélippeaux led their path to the coast. Once they had arrived in Rouen, they prepared forged passports at a royalist's house. Upon completion, the group dressed in sailor clothes and traveled to Honfleur. Phélippeaux chartered a small fishing boat, and once they were in the British Channel, the group boarded a British ship.

On May 7, 1798, they landed in Portsmouth and arrived in London by the next morning. Phélippeaux soon becomes a hero after Smith told others about his daring rescuer. Eventually, Sir Smith gained him, through his influence, a British colonelcy.”

(source Wikipedia)


message 68: by Claudia (last edited May 26, 2025 06:53AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments The British Royal Marines

Wearing red jackets and white trousers, the Royal Marines was a corps of soldiers who were trained like army soldiers and had similar uniforms and weaponry but were attached to the Navy. Virtually every naval ship had a contingent of marines, who existed to participate in landing parties that were sent ashore, to assist in hand-to-hand combat. Commissioned military officers were considered gentlemen but those in the marines were lower in status than army or navy officers. They often had humble backgrounds and poor qualifications.

(source: David Shapard, The Annotated Mansfield Park, Jane Austen)


message 69: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Silhouettes

"Cutting portraits, generally in profile, from black card became popular in the mid-18th century, though the term silhouette was seldom used until the early decades of the 19th century, and the tradition has continued under this name into the 21st century. They represented a cheap but effective alternative to the portrait miniature, and skilled specialist artists could cut a high-quality bust portrait, by far the most common style, in a matter of minutes, working purely by eye. Other artists, especially from about 1790, drew an outline on paper, then painted it in, which could be equally quick."

(Source: Wikipedia)

Here is an interesting article with illustrations:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silho...


message 70: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments What a coup de théâtre!

I hope that you liked this chapter as much as I did! Splendid sceneries, and Philip's run across the fields and pastures, cows and sheep staring at him, and ending up with the King's Shilling in his hand.

We will read chapter 35 on Tuesday 27 May. Until then, I am looking forward to your comments!


message 71: by Sam (new)

Sam | 444 comments Erich C wrote: "It's so interesting that you notice that, Sam. I sensed a shift as well. I was going to comment that the third volume has shown elements of the gothic, such as Sylvia's virtual imprisonment in her marriage and the dichotomy between the sterile/domestic and passion/nature. The less-nuanced characterizations also fit into that gothic mode..."

Yes, the term I chose was melodrama but I tend to use that term as it is used in film criticism where it signifies a genre with certain characteristics. I think most associate melodrama with a negative connotation when discussing literature. Some of the characteristics are also defined as gothic But to note a few examples of some characteristics that are associated:
1.There is heightened emotion, much like the scene where Sylvia says she will never forgive, or the confrontation between Sylvia Kinraid and Philip.
2. There are deus ex machina type plot elements of coincidental convenience like Kinraid arriving on a distressed vessel.
3. There are more defined lines between good and bad. Philip is definitely on the "bad" side now.

I do want to point out another clever literary device Gaskell is using now that she seems to be abandoning the "undercutting," device. I noticed she is much more frequently employing a "drawing a line in the sand," device for the characters and what I mean is she is adding plot elements from which there are few future alternatives available. The early examples are Kinraid's impressment and having Philip fail to rescue him and then complicating things by not telling the truth of what happened. Another example is Sylvia's never forgive line. The marriage and baby are big ones. In this chapter, Philip's "enlistment' qualifies. I am kind of enjoying seeing Gaskell do this because it it almost seems like she is setting a challenge to see how she is going to get past those "lines in the sand, "herself.

One way to appreciate reading often taught in writing classes is to read with a focus on what the author is doing to engage us in the story. What does the author do to move things forward or otherwise keep us involved. George Saunders spends a book on this method in A Swim in a Pond in the Rain: In Which Four Russians Give a Master Class on Writing, Reading, and Life and since reading that book I find myself looking at literature from that point of view at some given moment when reading a book. With Gaskell, he would have a field day since she is doing so much!!

Okay quiz time: How many would have preferred that Gaskell just have Philip jump in the river?


message 72: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1141 comments Sam, the romantic in me would have liked to have Philip throw himself in the river AND allow himself to drown. In fact he seemed on the edge of doing that. But this act would only have helped Sylvia (and Gaskell, plot wise) if his recognizable body had washed to shore and been found. Now Sylvia will be in the same state of unknowing that she was after Charley’s disappearance.

Another moment that stands out for me from this chapter is Philip’s vision of returning to Sylvia as a handsome hero in uniform and being recognized as such. His delusions just don’t end.

One last thought about Philip enlisting. Could he possibly end up on Charley’s ship?


message 73: by Julie (new)

Julie Kelleher | 75 comments Sue wrote: "One last thought about Philip enlisting. Could he possibly end up on Charley’s ship?"

I was thinking about that! Both Philip and Charley are at sea now. My current top plot pick is they encounter one another in the war, Philip redeems himself by saving Charley's life and dying in the process, and Charley comes home and marries Sylvia. That would be so tidy, since I guess we aren't going to get Philip throwing himself in the river.


message 74: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2173 comments The possibilites are widening again now. With Philip at sea (and Sylvia not knowing what happened to him), the future is uncertain for all.

Much as I dislike him, I wouldn't want Philip to die. I would hope he had a moment of redemption and gave Sylvia her freedom, with the child, while he finds a way to contentment without stalking her.
I guess that would asking too much, though. Life isn't that tidy or perfect.


message 75: by Claudia (last edited May 26, 2025 01:03PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Thanks Sam for your interesting contribution and the book suggestion. Sounds great!

One way to appreciate reading often taught in writing classes is to read with a focus on what the author is doing to engage us in the story.

Absolutely true!

As to Philip's hesitation to throw himself into the river, let's note that Sylvia had the same attitude at the same place, just a few hours before when she came back from Haytersbank after the first shock of meeting Charley.

Yes Petra, the possibilities are widening again and that is the good thing about it all! I had the feeling of being trapped in the dark parlour as well but now the scenes are shifting into something wider than the background of the last few chapters.


message 76: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments Now that Sylvia is out from under illusions regarding Charley and the obligation of Phillip, will she become her own person again? She has spent a lot of time living in town when she wants the farm, following Phillip's dictates, forcing herself into roles as wife and nurse to her mother. I am interested in how this absence of any "lovers" evolves the next incarnation of Sylvia.

I feel as if Phillip has once again taken the coward's way out. He has deserted Sylvia to fend for herself and the baby, and she cannot even have news of him, since he is using an assumed name. If he dies, she will not have the comfort and legal freedom of knowing she is a widow.


message 77: by Peter (last edited May 26, 2025 08:57AM) (new)

Peter | 223 comments Wonderful plot possibilities everyone! Philip on a ship with Charley, Philip saves Charley’s life, dies in the process. Bring on shades of ‘The Frozen Deep’. Talking about shades, what a wonderful read about silhouettes. And more, as mentioned the use of names and name changes! Gaskell has so many plot possibilities to consider — as well as to tantalize her readers.

I’ll offer my two cents worth by suggesting how coins come into play in the novel. Charley and Sylvia shared a half coin each to symbolize their pledge and Gaskell reminds us of this fact in the story of Charley’s incarceration. He still has that half coin and produces it for Sylvia. Meanwhile we have Philip accepting the King’s shilling. Both Charley and Philip were ‘taken’ in a questionable manner, and both are now in the military. Shall there be a war for Sylvia’s heart or must Sylvia fortify her heart to sadness?

Now, Philip has a black silhouette of Sylvia and Charley has a betrothal coin. Sylvia has her child, but no parent or guardian. What a great story to ponder what comes next!


message 78: by Claudia (last edited May 26, 2025 08:47AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Sue wrote: "Sam, the romantic in me would have liked to have Philip throw himself in the river AND allow himself to drown. In fact he seemed on the edge of doing that. But this act would only have helped Sylvi..."

Yes, Sue, it would have been plot-wise more convenient if Philip had drowned and been found, but that is Elizabeth Gaskell's know-how, or even genius. She seems to be eliminating convenient shortcuts and taking us somewhere else...


message 79: by Julie (new)

Julie Kelleher | 75 comments Petra wrote: "Much as I dislike him, I wouldn't want Philip to die. I would hope he had a moment of redemption and gave Sylvia her freedom, with the child, while he finds a way to contentment without stalking her."

I agree that would be preferable. And thank you Claudia for reminding us that Sylvia was also considering throwing herself in the river. Quite the marriage, this.

Sara wrote: "Now that Sylvia is out from under illusions regarding Charley and the obligation of Phillip, will she become her own person again? She has spent a lot of time living in town when she wants the farm, following Phillip's dictates, forcing herself into roles as wife and nurse to her mother. I am interested in how this absence of any "lovers" evolves the next incarnation of Sylvia."

Same. I have to remind myself regularly that the title of the book is Sylvia's LOVERS, because much of the time I'd like to see more Sylvia, but I guess that was never the deal.


message 80: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 35 – Things unutterable

That same day, Sylvia lies next to her mother, thinking Bell is asleep, but she is dying. The doctor is now more worried about Sylvia, whose face shows no emotion. She does not shed tears. She seems to be withholding her feelings and the doctor feels this is dangerous for her mental health. He repeatedly insists on calling Philip Hepburn to her side, even more so when Bell dies.

Everyone wonders where Philip has gone. Hester is very worried and sad. She knows that something has gone wrong in Philip's marriage and silently regrets that he did not marry her. She would have been his true wife and would have fulfilled all his wishes and needs. Hester, as always, is quiet and discreet and helps Sylvia in a considerate way while everyone, including the Fosters, asks and looks everywhere for Philip.

Sylvia insists on accompanying her mother to the grave. Dr Morgan asks Hester to accompany her. He hopes that attending the funeral will help and bring Sylvia to tears.

When Sylvia sees Kester, dressed in his Sunday bests, weeping incessantly, she too begins to sob in a heartbreaking way, but manages to go and ask Kester to come and see her.


message 81: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Sylvia’s metamorphosis

Sylvia is no longer the bubbly, impulsive, sometimes immature girl we once knew, when she was seventeen. She is no longer about ribbons, blue or pink, or Kinraid's black ribbon with a half coin tied to it. It is no longer about a red cloak, but about mourning clothes. Sylvia is barely twenty years old and her innocent sensuality is gone.

Amid the storms of her life, the imprisonment and execution of her father, she proves to be more determined and more capable of coping with a situation than she first appeared to. Wounded, almost broken, she can love or hate without reserve. She has something of Penelope's dark and fierce gaze, and like Odysseus/Ulysses' wife waiting for her beloved husband's return, she seemed, figuratively, to do and undo her daily work to keep, not 108 suitors, but only Philip at bay. Marrying Hepburn in a moment of weakness and when help was badly needed after Daniel's execution and Bell's cognitive collapse, was her mistake (but who does not make mistakes?), she was soon aware of that.

Then, she feels trapped. Kinraid's return and the revelation that Philip knew he had been taken alive, but failed to tell her so and pass on his message, apparently kills her inner energy after a burst of indignation. She feels hugely betrayed by Philip. She does not want to live as Philip's wife, nor does she want to see Charley again. As Julie said earlier, "she is deciding here and now who she is and what she must honor, and she's going to honor it, no matter the personal cost. Because betraying herself would cost more."

Philip has symbolically killed her lover, but he also kills her innocence, reducing her to a wife according to his own wishes (meant to wear the gowns he chose, to attend church, to be at home for tea).

Now, in chapter 35, she is clearly stunned and on the verge of a mental breakdown when her mother dies and Philip's whereabouts are still unexplained, while Charley has run away.

The final lines of this short and dramatic chapter offer a tiny spark of hope. Kester's tears trigger Sylvia's emotions and now she turns to him for help, as he is the last remaining witness to her youngest and happiest years.

Still, like Sara, I am interested in how this absence of any "lovers" evolves the next incarnation of Sylvia.


message 82: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Missing

Ironically, Charley Kinraid, once supposed "dead and gone", appeared unheralded in Monkshaven in his full splendour and glory, a handsome naval officer surrounded by the inn's landlady's tale of his exploits along famous naval warriors on enemy soil. But he went away without a word and unobserved.

At the same time, Philip Hepburn disappeared - apparently unnoticed, but closely observed by Hester. The touchy subject of Philip's absence is raised by Dr Morgan who is preoccupied with Sylvia's condition and lack of emotional response to her mother's death. Dr Morgan - who was probably the unnamed physician in chapter 31, is now enquiring on Philip's whereabouts. Dr Morgan, not mentioned previously and likely not to be mentioned afterwards, (just as was Harry Donkin the tailor in chapter 5), is a non-committed observer who helps unravel the mystery - to no avail. He is acting in a protective way - as he did earlier when he banned Philip out of Sylvia's presence during her post partum illness (chapter 31) but he is also behaving like a police officer at the beginning of an enquiry, asking witnesses.

Hester is the most observant of all those around. She is aware of a serious matrimonial conflict the day before but is apparently not aware, as no one actually seems to be, of Charley's visit at Hepburns'. She is suffering intensely from her unrequited love for Hepburn, and she sorely regrets that Philip never noticed her feelings for him. Interestingly, Hester belongs to those who go unnoticed through life but, especially because no one notices them, they are often bearers of more information than most people are, as they notice details that others do not.

Time has slowed down since chapter 32. We were told on Wednesday, a market day, that Charley Kinraid came on Tuesday evening by smack and was among those rescued by the villagers. Chapters 33, 34 and chapter 35 except for the closing lines - Bell's funeral is taking place on Thursday - are, in fact, the story of only one day - the fateful Wednesday of April 1798 when Kinraid came to Monkshaven and went, Philip disappeared and Bell died.

The present slow pace and the emotional density of the story involve the readers more closely - as we already experienced while reading Mary Barton (view spoiler). We already experienced this at the end of volume one and the beginning of volume two, when chapters 13, 14 and 15 were dissecting one day, 1 January 1796, from several perspectives.


message 83: by Claudia (last edited May 26, 2025 01:35PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Thank you all for your great comments!

We will read Chapter 36 on Thursday 29 May!


message 84: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments I am grateful for Kester. He is all that Sylvia has left to tie her to her former life and remind her who she was before she was 'remade' by Phillip.

What Hester does not know is critical to her feelings for Sylvia. She does not know that Phillip tricked Sylvia and lied to her by saying he believed Kinraid drowned when he knew he was not. I wonder how that knowledge would alter her view of Phillip as a 'perfect man'.

I think Sylvia is much stronger than she appears, if she can just come out of the fog of all that has happened, including the sudden loss of her mother. I don't suppose she has any claim on Phillip's money, so cannot decide her own future. As a deserted woman and not a widow, she probably can do nothing without her husband's approval, which she cannot get. ((sigh))


message 85: by Peter (new)

Peter | 223 comments So much loss for Sylvia. Her father, mother, the farm are all gone. Her gaiety and hopes. The colours of her coat and ribbons have now become muted expressions from her past. Her marriage is over and the father of her child is missing. Sylvia has lost Charley, the man she truly loved,. The weight of the world is now upon Sylvia. She still has her child, but I’m wondering what Fate has in store for her.

Gaskell will have to shift gears and now focus on what reserves of resilience Sylvia can muster. There are so many threads of the plot that need to be resolved.


message 86: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Sara wrote: "I am grateful for Kester. He is all that Sylvia has left to tie her to her former life and remind her who she was before she was 'remade' by Phillip.

What Hester does not know is critical to her ..."


Right! Hester, in spite of her qualities as an observer, has not seen Kinraid but does not know anything either about Philip's silence on Kinraid's impressment! Tie a knot in your handkerchief to make sure to keep that in mind.

Indeed, there is a legal issue added to Sylvia's present distress.


message 87: by Julie (last edited May 27, 2025 05:46PM) (new)

Julie Kelleher | 75 comments Claudia wrote: "Philip's whereabouts are still unexplained, while Charley has run away."

I wouldn't so much say that he has run away as that he has done exactly what Sylvia has asked of him. "I'll just give yo' one kiss--one little kiss--and then, so help me God... I'll never see yo' again on this side heaven."

Even in leaving he's more sensitive to Sylvia than Philip ever was, Philip who from the start wouldn't even call her the name she asked to be called.


message 88: by Erich C (new)

Erich C | 643 comments Sue wrote: "Sam, the romantic in me would have liked to have Philip throw himself in the river AND allow himself to drown. In fact he seemed on the edge of doing that."

I don't know if Philip could allow himself to drown, but I'm sure he would love to be pitied for almost having drowned!

I also can't imagine him saving Kinraid's life if they are on the same ship. Maybe Gaskell will have him die heroically in some way?


message 89: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1141 comments I agree, Erich. Philip still thinks too much of himself to allow himself to drown. Now he envisions himself returning to Sylvia as a war hero. He’s too deluded to realize that this would make no difference to Sylvia at all. It might erase his issues with others in town like Coulson and Hester. And I can’t help wondering what the Foster brothers will think when they become aware of what has happened and Philip’s disappearance. Can Coulson carry on without Philip? Will the Fosters feel they should intervene? Or are these issues beyond the basic story of Sylvia’s Lovers?


message 90: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2173 comments Sara wrote: "I am grateful for Kester. He is all that Sylvia has left to tie her to her former life and remind her who she was before she was 'remade' by Phillip. ..."

I, too, am grateful for Kester. He's a rock that Sylvia can lean on and a true friend. He'll always be there for her, and she needs someone right now. She's so alone.


message 91: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Chapter 36 – Mysterious tidings

That same evening, Kester visits Sylvia, who is very upset. She reveals to Kester that Philip did not tell her the truth about Kinraid's impressment. Kester had heard of Kinraid's presence in the town, but not that the sailor had visited the Hepburns. Upon further enquiry, Kester learns that Kinraid paid his bill that same Tuesday morning and left town on the stagecoach to Hartlepool, without so much as breakfast and without ever visiting the Corneys. Sylvia is reassured that Kinraid left before Philip himself left home.

She tells Kester that she has spoken her mind to Philip and taken a vow against him, and that she cannot forgive him. Philip knew how devastated Sylvia was and that a word from him would have restored everything.

Kester leaves after telling Sylvia that he is staying with his widow sister and doing odd jobs, and offering her his help as “her oldest friend”.

Three weeks later, Hester receives a letter from Philip Hepburn, sent from London. He informs “those whom it may concern” that he has left Monkshaven forever and must be considered dead. He asks Hester to look after Sylvia and his child and seek Jeremiah’s help for them. Hester is now distressed by the hopelessness of this letter and decides to go to Jeremiah’s and consult with him. “But something occurred to put off the fulfilment of this plan”.

Sylvia has gone ahead of her, remembering Jeremiah's kind words on her wedding visit, and decides to ask him for advice and help. She goes with her baby, partly hidden under a thick veil of mourning, instinctively afraid of meeting Kinraid and not knowing how to react. The whole town sympathises with her after Daniel's execution, Bell's death and now her husband's disappearance. Many think that Philip has been forcefully recruited by Press-Gangs.

Jeremiah Foster also has no news of Philip. The little girl seems to be attracted to Jeremiah and his gold watch and chain, while he listens to Sylvia's confidences.

She tells him everything. Jeremiah is more judgmental to her than she expected. He reproaches her for taking an oath and speaking evil, [Quakers do not take oaths], but admits that he did not expect Philip to act as he did.

“I could not have thought him guilty of such baseness”.

He still blames both Philip and her for damaging their daughter's future and hints that Philip may return and be entitled to custody of his daughter. He promises to talk to his brother about her staying with her daughter in the house behind the shop, without revealing what has happened between her and her husband.

After leaving Mr Foster's house, Sylvia tells her daughter that she will love her twice as much as her father is missing.


message 92: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Kester, Hester and Jeremiah Foster


Kester is an efficient inquirer. Through the inn's landlady and him now, Mrs Gaskell is very skilfully delivering additional details little by little, not everything at once. We know now that Charley has left Monkshaven in a hurry and has not eaten his breakfast at the inn - although he had paid for it. Philip did exactly the same thing in chapter 19 when he left the inn in Newcastle to board the smack to London.

We all agree that Kester is Sylvia's most reliable friend. She told him the whole story and even if his response is indignant and visceral, we know that he is not likely to commit an offence. Nor is he inclined to gossip. He is an example of common sense and wisdom.

Hester does not tell Sylvia that she has received a letter from Philip. She is shattered by this letter. The letter itself does not reveal his whereabouts but the fact that he is to be considered as dead, which, says he, is likely to happen. He is asking Hester to help Sylvia and his child and seek help from the Fosters for them. Philip erased the words "my wife" and wrote Sylvia instead, which suggests a disruption in his attitude to Sylvia, contradictory to his allusions in the lines above, about his unutterable feelings for her.

Jeremiah Foster's reaction to Sylvia's distress may at first seem judgemental and even dismissive. On closer inspection, however, their discussion is much more nuanced than it first appears, even though Philip's guilt is undeniable.


This conversation reinforces Sylvia's honesty. "Jeremiah had never met anyone who was so frank and open in expressing false feelings". "Your words sent him forth, Sylvia. - I cannot unsaid them, sir; and I believe I ought to say them again." Indeed, her story (another story within the story) is a straightforward, honest and factual account of what happened, the second verbal account by Sylvia in this chapter. Sylvia is not tricked into Jeremiah's stiff rhetoric. She is standing her ground on a polite yet firm way. Jeremiah is feeling disarmed, including by the baby, and after using readymade, biblically influenced phrases perhaps to reassure himself first, he admits that he does not know, for the time being, what to do.


Jeremiah Foster has an interesting biblical perspective: "It was a self-seeking lie, to put you through pain to get his own ends. And the end of it was that he was cast out like Cain" (Genesis 4). Indeed, Philip symbolically "killed" his brother (Kinraid), but also knowingly tortured Sylvia through his silence, but, like Cain, Philip was himself tortured by his conscience.


message 93: by Claudia (new)

Claudia | 935 comments A narrative tunnel?

As nothing decisive seems to happen in this chapter to advance the plot, it can be described as part of a narrative tunnel in contrast to the two previous chapters (33 and 34), which were dominated by two coups de théâtre.

Sylvia's revelations to Kester and his enquiry merely serve to confirm that Kinraid left town very early on, and that Philip and he did not meet and kill each other. Still, the fact that Charley hurriedly left without a breakfast, nor visiting the Corneys to their own surprise (they believed him dead like everyone else!), provides an immaterial feel about Charley Kinraid. He left as quickly and unexpectedly as he came over. He seems to be never stopping anywhere, nor taking root.

Philip's letter to Hester provides no concrete information apart from confirming that he was still alive when he wrote it (of course!) and that there is a London postage stamp on it. He says implicitly that he loves Sylvia so much that it cannot be said in words and appeals to Hester's kindness once again and regards her as a faithful friend. Hester does not know where he is or what he is doing. Hester keeps the letter to herself before consulting the Fosters. She has read the letter several times and no doubt she knows it by heart. Hester's reverent attitude towards Philip and his letter may seem to be a kind of idolatry or at least of idealising Philip, but also speaks of her true love and her pain.

Jeremiah Foster himself offers Sylvia no solution, leaving her in a complicated and precarious situation. He must confer with his brother first. He now sees that there is a crack in Philip's smooth façade.

However, Jeremiah's immediate fondness for Bella is noticeable and reciprocal and the baby girl is carried into the parlour. "Much of her after-life depended on that trivial fact." It is one of those little foreshadowing phrases discreetly sprinkled throughout the text, which leave us waiting for more.


message 94: by Claudia (last edited May 28, 2025 01:33PM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments An additional extra note

Jeremiah Foster tells Sylvia that Philip could "claim his child", which upsets her more.

Indeed, children were still the legal property of the husband, even in instances of separation, until the Custody of Infants Act was passed in 1839, in which the author Caroline Norton (1808-1877) was instrumental.

Caroline Norton became a friend of Elizabeth Gaskell in the 1850s. Before that, Mrs Gaskell chose a few lines from her poem "Child of the Islands" (1845) as an epigraph to chapter 9 of Mary Barton.

Spurred by her own marital experience, Caroline Norton was actively working on reforms of the women and children rights.

Her campaigning led to the passage of the Custody of Infants Act in 1839, after which mothers could petition for custody of their children up to seven years old, the Matrimonial Causes Act in 1857, already mentioned here by Peter, and the Married Women's Property Act in 1870.

(Sources: Wikipedia, notes in The Norton Critical Edition of Mary Barton and in the Oxford World's Classics edition of Sylvia's Lovers.)


message 95: by Claudia (last edited May 29, 2025 04:47AM) (new)

Claudia | 935 comments Thanks all for your comments!

This chapter partly answered Sue's (pertinent) question about how the Fosters, at least Jeremiah, would react when they discovered that Philip was not quite as they thought he was.

I am not quite sure about Charley, Julie. He was certainly in a hurry when he left. I had the impression hearing the baby was the last straw for him. He was very much upset by what he discovered (Philip's failing to pass on his message, Sylvia married with a child). He even did not visit his relatives at Moss Brow. We will see.

We will read Chapter 37 on Friday 30 May!


message 96: by Sara (new)

Sara (phantomswife) | 1529 comments I am also unsure about Charley. He left before Phillip, so he may have only been trying to honor Sylvia and her pledge that she would not see him again. In any case, even with Phillip gone, the situation remains the same for Charley...she is another man's wife.

That he is sincere about his feelings for Sylvia and returned just for her is evident, because he did not linger to see his relatives.

The baby is the key to Sylvia's protection now. Jeremiah will not toss out a mother and baby, especially this baby. I wonder if the baby will worm its way into Hester's heart as well. She is not going to be happy about being charged to take care of Sylvia, who she feels has caused this breach somehow.

I somehow do not believe these men are done with one another.


message 97: by Sue (new)

Sue | 1141 comments Sara, I agree about that feeling of a need for a confrontation between the two men.

I interpreted Philip’s words about death in his letter to Hester as a reflection of his possible death in battle. Unless he has gone AWOL, he will still be with some group of new recruits ready to embark. I suppose it is possible that he might ultimately be rejected before he actually sets out for war.

I am wondering what Gaskell will do now to resolve all of these threads so that we, Sylvia, and Sylvia’s lovers won’t be left in a sort of limbo.


message 98: by Petra (last edited May 28, 2025 09:47PM) (new)

Petra | 2173 comments I had to remember to put myself into this time for this chapter. I felt that Jeremiah's response to Sylvia was rather harsh. Claudia, thanks for pointing out the Biblical aspects of what he said and how he may be looking at the situation, through his Quaker eyes. That helps with my perspective of the scene.

I also noted the quote "Much of her after-life depended on that trivial fact". It seemed rather ominous and as if the mere chance that Bella toddled towards Jeremiah saved herself and, by association, her mother as well. Sometimes it's the small, trivial things or actions in Life that have the biggest changing effect.

Isn't Hester doing to Sylvia what Philip did to her....withholding information? He didn't tell her about Charley and Hester isn't telling her about the letter.


message 99: by Petra (last edited May 28, 2025 09:49PM) (new)

Petra | 2173 comments Sara, I'm fairly sure about Charley and his love for Sylvia. He must be heart-broken, after going through war and danger to make his way home to Sylvia, then to find her out of reach. ......however, I did wonder why he left his breakfast (LOL).


message 100: by Petra (new)

Petra | 2173 comments Sue, I hadn't thought of Philip going AWOL. Another possible avenue for events to unfold.


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