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I'm probably in the minority here, but realism.I don't care for magic systems - in fact, I'd prefer little to no magic. What I want is a well developed world, with political, social, and economic systems that make sense, and hints of a deep, expansive history. Can there be fantasy elements? Sure, but they should be minimal, and rather strange. Think ASOIAF.
I want humans, doing human things, in made up but realistic lands, and facing human problems.
I also like well-developed worlds; if I am to be fully immersed in a fantasy universe, everything needs to make sense. I love it when a story introduces you to lore and history that helps connect everything together. I also love a book with a map :)
Yes, a good map is a joy to have! I love being able to flip back and forth between the page I'm on and the map, getting the full scope of where things are and why this particular event is happening.My own map, which I'd made well before I started writing, helped so much.
For me, the two most important things in a fantasy book are good writing and an engaging fictional world. While an intriguing plot and interesting characters are also welcome, style and world-building are even more important to me.Mathew wrote: "I'm probably in the minority here, but realism.
I don't care for magic systems - in fact, I'd prefer little to no magic. What I want is a well developed world, with political, social, and economic..."
I call such books 'historical fiction set in an imaginary world', and I enjoy them just as much as you do! I like fictional creatures, races and magic, however.
In any case, regardless of how much magic there is in the fictional world, it should have geography, politics and economics, as well as an ancient history behind those things. That's a basic requirement for a fantasy book.
Olivia wrote: "I also like well-developed worlds; if I am to be fully immersed in a fantasy universe, everything needs to make sense. I love it when a story introduces you to lore and history that helps connect everything together.
I also love a book with a map :)
..."
I totally agree! Maps are important because they help you visualise fictional worlds.
However, there are two exceptions. The early Polish editions of The Witcher did not include any maps. Neither does Chimeras. In one of the early chapters, however, one of the main characters, Tessa (mentioned in the neighbouring thread), reminisces about the geography and history lessons she had as a child. While these passages act as a verbal map, including an actual map (and a good cover, naturally) would have made this great book even better.
I wish "historical fiction set in an imaginary world" was a recognized genre, as that's what I'm most interested in. Would also have been helpful when I was in the publishing process.We've discussed it before, but fantasy is such a broad category that it can really include everything, but is most associated with elves and dragons.
For me, good story is most important. I like when the characters are motivated, all have their goals and energy to achieve those. I like to read about interactions between people or other fantasy races and creatures, especially when the characters' value systems collide, and they have to adjust, rethink, or defend their beliefs. I like it when suspense is maintained throughout the story.
Good world building is a bonus, but if I decide that the author overexplains things, I'll skip those pages.
I prefer when fantasy books are not all gloomy, when there's hope and feel-good moments.
I don't appreciate graphic violence, rape, torture, long and boring fight scenes or daily routine descriptions.
Mathew wrote: "I wish "historical fiction set in an imaginary world" was a recognized genre, as that's what I'm most interested in. Would also have been helpful when I was in the publishing process.We've discus..."
Elves and dragons don't have to be evil. It all depends on the skill and intelligence of the writer. You yourself mentioned ASOIAF as an example of high-quality fantasy, despite it featuring dragons.
The Witcher also features elves and dragons, but when Andrzej Sapkowski writes about them, he delves into some of the darker aspects of human nature, such as cruelty, stupidity, and xenophobia. Ultimately, his books are really about humans and their society.
Kristina wrote: "For me, good story is most important. I like when the characters are motivated, all have their goals and energy to achieve those. I like to read about interactions between people or other fantasy r..."
As I mentioned above, I enjoy fantasy books featuring interesting magical races. This allows authors to explore clashes between different value systems and interactions between characters from different cultures.
Like you, I don't like reading about nasty topics such as torture or rape. There are two ways to make a fantasy book 'adult'. Writers who prefer the first option fill their stories with graphic violence and other taboo subjects. Those who prefer the second option focus on making their books well-written and interesting and their fictional worlds complex and realistic. I prefer the second option.
Oh, 100%. I can appreciate fantasy elements in stories, if they're done well. I love Martin's Others, creeping at the edges of the world, and even the more seen dragons are well done. Tolkien, too - that grand master of fantasy - used fantasy elements well. They don't detract from the story, nor are they gimmicky. You've hit it on the head when describing the Witcher series (not that I've read it, just that I agree this is what stories should be about): humans and their society. Can this be shown through fantasy races? Absolutely. Makes a great foil for us.
Otherwise, I would also agree with your statement about adult fantasy, and my preference for option 2. And I'll agree with Kristina, too, that authors can get carried away in fight scenes, minutia of life that doesn't further the plot or give character info, and graphic scenes that are there for shock rather than plot. I feel like the mention of such things is better, leaving the reader to fill in as much detail as they wish.
I don't really need to read of every sword swipe as if it's the choreography to John Wick. Nor do I need to really know how many fingernails are being peeled off during torture - unless, I suppose, it's an interrogation scene, but then the focus is the conversation with the pain being a sidekick and not the focus.
Mathew wrote: "Oh, 100%. I can appreciate fantasy elements in stories, if they're done well. I love Martin's Others, creeping at the edges of the world, and even the more seen dragons are well done. Tolkien, too ..."As I've mentioned before, George R. R. Martin drew inspiration from Ted Williams' books. In The Dragonbone Chair, the characters firstly talk about the Sith and the Norns (two races similar to elves) as ancient beings who only exist in fairy tales and legends. However, it gradually becomes clear that these legends are based on real events, and the Sithi and Norns themselves appear among the new characters in the second half of the book. The same can be said of the Kaskalla race in Chimeras.
In these books, the 'others' first creep at the edges of the plot and world, too. Then they appear among the characters and turn out to be very important to the plot.
I'm not sure how to explain it, but tthis writing tactic gives fictional worlds historical depth and make non-human races really interesting and intriguing rather than simply people with pointy ears.
Also, I very like it when writers invent entirely new races, as Martha Wells does in her Raksura books. However, it must certainly be difficult for writers, as they have to invent these races' cultures and physical appearances of these races practically from scratch.Whether or not a long scene is suitable — be it a fight scene or any other kind — depends on the context. For instance, if an author wants to show that one character is a better swordsman than another, describing a fight scene between the two characters would be the most effective way to demonstrate this. In this case, a long fight scene would be appropriate.
That was a particularly interesting aspect of Orson Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead novel (and its sequels). He created a whole new race, but made sure to bring in vast differences in biology, which affected social norms. For instance, the "Little Ones" would vibrate when they're happy - smiling wasn't a thing for them.Makes more sense given it's sci-fi and set on a different world. Creatures growing up on the same rock would have similar biological development. But it's the little things like that that really make different races stand out and not just people with pointy ears.
Mathew wrote: "That was a particularly interesting aspect of Orson Scott Card's Speaker for the Dead novel (and its sequels). He created a whole new race, but made sure to bring in vast differences in biology, wh..."The only series by Orson Scott Card that I have read is The Tales of Alvin Maker. It's a historical fantasy set in North America, so there are no magical races in it. However, I found the differences in biology that affected social norms very interesting.
In terms of other worlds and sci-fi, the final book in the Osten Ard series suddenly reveals that the ancestors of the Sithi, Norns and Vao came to Osten Ard in giant ships from their own dying world. It's still fantasy, not sci-fi. Nevertheless, it is a logical explanation for the peculiarities that characterise these three races and their longevity.
In Chimeras, although there is no travelling between worlds, Kaskalla's longevity and magical abilities are explained in a very interesting way, too. This fictional world experienced an ice age, just like ours. While the primitive ancestors of humans migrated south, the ancestors of the Kaskalla remained in the north, evolving separately from humanity. By the time the Ice Age ended and the two groups met again, they had diverged so much that the Kaskalla became like elves.
Mod
One of the definitions that I have come across is that Fantasy has miraculous things happening, and there is no explanation, and Scifi has miraculous things happening, and there is an effort to explain.
If fantasy has no magic, I am not sure its fantasy.
What you are saying is you like low fantasy, as opposed to high fantasy. Low fantasy features a lot more 'realism', and not so much magic.
Realism is a tricky term in fantasy. It could mean, I want more of the real world's (meaning our world) laws and physics to apply.
But I think the real aim, or the real violation, is when the world created, even with it magical elements, doesn't break its own rules. So, if the author establishes that brooms cant be used to fly, they dont go on to have someone flying on a broom.
But then...for many stories, that impossible thing is often the one thing that the hero masters at the end, and surprise, he's the first.
In my writers group, I get into fights about realism all the time. IMO, realism must apply unless it is established something is different. To not adhere to it lowers the credibility of the tale, and so, it is ignored at the stories peril.
Anyway...my own story is kind of a mix of both high and low fantasy. Most characters have no magic.
I wish "historical fiction set in an imaginary world" was a recognized genre, as that's what I'm most interested in. Would also have been helpful when I was in the publishing process.
There is such a thing as Historical Fantasy. Usually it means our world with some fantasy stuff added. Xena, was loosely Historical Fantasy
But, I suppose if I took the roman legions and placed them on a made up world, it would still be in the historical category.
For me, good story is most important. I like when the characters are motivated, all have their goals and energy to achieve those. I like to read about interactions between people or other fantasy races and creatures, especially when the characters' value systems collide, and they have to adjust, rethink, or defend their beliefs.
I like it when suspense is maintained throughout the story.
Good world building is a bonus, but if I decide that the author overexplains things, I'll skip those pages.
I prefer when fantasy books are not all gloomy, when there's hope and feel-good moments.
I don't appreciate graphic violence, rape, torture, long and boring fight scenes or daily routine descriptions.
Well...my book may not be for you. I like the world unfiltered, and I am one of those...the light is strongest when it is pitted against the most unstoppable dark. So...there is violence and many people have called it dark fantasy (but I thought it was full of hope...)
Ignoring that, you would like my book.
I am a minimalist type of writer, and as a reader, if the story goes into long descriptions of trees and landscapes, I skip ahead. My brain just goes, trees, mountains...got it.
Also...I hate writing battle scenes. They take up so much space and most of it does not matter. When I do write battles, I try to use them to show things about the characters. I always think of the way Star Wars used its light saber duels the show the characters and try to do as well as that.
I've never read the Witcher, and I am not sure if I have ever read anything by Orson Scott Card. Ender's Game is one of those books I will get to sooner or later. One of my friends really wants me to read it.
Surprisingly, low fantasy is *not* "realistic fantasy." I thought it was, with high fantasy being elves and wizards, but it isn't at all! Something I learned when getting into the industry.In the publishing biz, the difference between high fantasy and low fantasy is nothing but setting. High fantasy takes place in an entirely fictional world. This, mine is high fantasy, despite no magic. Sounds like your tale is, too. Low fantasy, on the other hand, is blending fantasy elements into familiar worlds. Anything set on earth.
Neat, hey? I learned so much when I was querying.
Mod
Low Fantasy: Noun
1) (uncountable) A subgenre of fantasy fiction set in the primary or real world as opposed to a secondary or fantasy world.
2) (uncountable) A subgenre of fantasy fiction that focuses on more grounded and realistic fantasy with more focus on the daily lives and practical goals of the characters.
3) (countable) A work in this subgenre.
I am saying definition 2 is equally as definitive.
Where are you getting that? Everything I see online, from agents to publishers to writers - has it defined the other way. Even the Wikipedia (wick-eh-pee-die-ah) has it this way.But the writing community I've been a part of for decades always used it with definition 2 in mind.
Mod
An alternative definition, common in role-playing games, rests on the story and characters being more realistic and less mythic in scope. Thus, some works like Robert E. Howard's Conan the Barbarian series can be high fantasy according to the first definition but low fantasy according to the second.[3] With other works, such as the TV series Supernatural, the opposite is true.
I think the current rendering sounds like a rebranding of the word to me.
Low Fantasy is always full of grit, and more of a Guts and Glory kind of story. While High Fantasy has epic quests, dealing with the gods and magic, and great world challenging problems.
Superman is high fantasy, Batman is low fantasy. Most superheroes are in the high fantasy realm, even though most take place on earth.
I use 'TheFreeOnlineDictionary.' when I have to look things up. Its just better than all the others. Sometimes I use the Urban Dictionary ;)
TheFreeOnlineDictionary, seems to have changed to TheFreeDictionary.
The change 'to in world or out of world' seems too clean. I think the word must have been redefined somewhere along the way. I can accept it, but...Superman is low fantasy? SMH. There is just too much that would blur that line to really be the best choice.
P. Pherson wrote "Well...my book may not be for you. I like the world unfiltered, and I am one of those...the light is strongest when it is pitted against the most unstoppable dark. So...there is violence and many people have called it dark fantasy (but I thought it was full of hope...)"Yes, you have a very violent scene in the very beginning. I felt so sorry for a poor girl!
I may come back to your story some time later.
The term "light fantasy" is rarely used :) I think that fantasy books should include both dark and light themes. Characters that always behave brave and noble are not realistic :)
Also...I hate writing battle scenes.
I still do write battle scenes, just try to focus on the most important moments. It will take a couple of years to translate my epic dragon fantasies. There are no battle scenes in The Orange Curse :)
Mod
The opening is so integral to the character and all that happens, that it cannot be removed. Plus, I'd not remove it even if I could. Sami suffers a terrible ordeal, but it makes her who she is. Parts of it she wrestles with for the whole tale, other parts show her growth over the course of the 5 books. And much of it lends itself to the big themes of the whole story.
Or...in other words, I am gambling that, despite the harsh opening, the story will still show its worth, and that will over shadow it.
But...if any depiction of those types of scenes greatly bother you, its not a story for you.
Well..I have to write the battle scenes, they do happen. I try to keep them quick. But...they do take up space. I work hard to make every sentence matter to advancing the story, the battles are no different.
P. Pherson wrote: "I wish "historical fiction set in an imaginary world" was a recognized genre, as that's what I'm most interested in. Would also have been helpful when I was in the publishing process.There is such a thing as Historical Fantasy. Usually it means our world with some fantasy stuff added. Xena, was loosely Historical Fantasy ..."
In my opinion, historical fantasy is when an author adds a touch of magic to an alternative version of the history of our world. I don't know much about Xena, but the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik is certainly a good example of this subgenre. Set in an alternative 19th-century Earth inhabited by dragons alongside humans, the series sees dragons influencing many important historical events.
When I mentioned 'historical romance set in a different world', I meant a story with political intrigue and battles, as well as a hint of magic, set in a world that feels both different and believable. I'm not sure if I did a good job of explaining what I meant.
Kristina wrote: "I still do write battle scenes, just try to focus on the most important moments. It will take a couple of years to translate my epic dragon fantasies. There are no battle scenes in The Orange Curse :)..."
Are you translating them from Russian? I can imagine how hard it is.
Kristina wrote: "The term "light fantasy" is rarely used :) I think that fantasy books should include both dark and light themes. Characters that always behave brave and noble are not realistic :)..."
Of course, there is no such term. But sometimes it can be necessary. The LOTR and Osten Ard books, for example, undoubtedly belong to the light fantasy genre. Very bad things happen in these stories, such as Frodo being tortured and Gwythinn being cruelly killed, but the authors never describe these acts in detail. The characters have obvious flaws, but they don't seem criminal, nor do they disgust the reader.
Generally, books of the second type — those that are realistic because they are complex and interesting rather than NC-17 — often belong to the light fantasy genre. So that term is necessary, too.
P. Pherson wrote: "Parts of it she wrestles with for the whole tale, other parts show her growth over the course of the 5 books...."
Well, the character really does have to grow over the span of the five books.
Jabotikaba wrote: Are you translating them from Russian? I can imagine how hard it is.Not yet :) Those novels are still waiting for their turn. By the time I get to them, I'll have become an expert in translation. I rhymed part of the action in the style of Mahabharata, so I guess I'll have some fun with it.
P. Person wrote: The opening is so integral to the character and all that happens, that it cannot be removed. Plus, I'd not remove it even if I could.No, of course. It's up to the author how to tell the story. The fact that you can convey your heroine's feelings and make the reader sympathize is already a plus. It makes your book immersive.
Kristina wrote: "Jabotikaba wrote: Are you translating them from Russian? I can imagine how hard it is.Not yet :) Those novels are still waiting for their turn. By the time I get to them, I'll have become an exper..."
Oh my, nothing could be rhymed by me in any language!
I don't know if your books will be popular, but you could certainly become a successful translator.
Mod
Stuff like that.
Light fantasy would be difficult to do on its own, as it would need the dark to contrast against.
P. Pherson wrote: "Light fantasy would be difficult to do on its own, as it would need the dark to contrast against...."Of course, every story needs conflict. Without it, nothing would happen in a book. What sort of book would that be in that case?
However, conflict can take many forms. The most common type is the struggle between good and evil, or light and darkness. In LOTR, for instance, the elves are unambiguously good and the orcs are unambiguously evil.
As well as depicting the conflict between light and darkness, books can also depict conflict between different types of darkness. Lying and stealing are definitely wrong and they're things that a heroic protagonist would not do. However, if the villain tortures and kills, the author may allow the hero to lie and steal, as these actions are less heinous than torture and murder. In theory, there could be a heroic assassin, but the villain would then have to commit an even nastier crime. For example, raping innocent koi fish, frying them, and eating them.
That was a stupid joke, but conflicts between different types of darkness are exactly the sort of thing you'd find in dark fantasy books. If conflicts between darkness and more darkness can occur in the books, then so can conflicts between light and more light.
This happens when villains in books are not actually evil, but instead are complex and interesting characters. Characters like this are rare, so I really appreciate it when they do appear in books.
For example, there's Ineluki in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. In theory, he should have been a great hero, since he started out just trying to save his people (the elf-like Sithi race) from the humans who had invaded Sith lands and besieged the castle where Ineluki lived. However, he then killed his own father because he was horrified by his methods of saving their race, and he turned into a monster, both literally and figuratively.
A similar thing happened to the human king Elias in the same trilogy. Initially, he just wanted to be a good ruler, but he then started removing all those who, in his opinion, prevented him from doing so. In the end, he turned into another monster.
Interestingly, the Last King of Osten Ard tetralogy, a sequel to the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy, features less compelling villains. Queen Utuk'ku is simply insane. Chancellor Pasevalles is a more intriguing character, being a classic sociopath incapable of feeling compassion or regret. However, he realises that he is different from other people because of his insensitivity. This is highly unusual for a sociopath, who often fails to recognise their psychological problems, instead considering themselves sane and decent.
Gyrodus from Chimeras is much more interesting than Pasevalles. He's an obvious sociopath, too. This seems to be a common affliction among fantasy book chancellors, as does pathological greed for political power. Unlike Pasevalles, however, Gyrodus is not aware that he is a sociopath. He believes he is a noble hero and a victim of circumstance, and that it is the evil individuals around him who are compelling him to commit crime after crime. This is how criminals and tyrants really think, and it makes Chimeras a great fantasy novel.
In general, the villains in The Last King of Osten Ard are less complex and interesting than those in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, or even Chimeras. No one compares to Ineluki. In my opinion, he is the most complex, compelling and interesting villain in the fantasy genre. Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, and to a lesser extent Chimeras, can therefore be classed as light fantasy. Although there are a few princesses in these books, unicorns are not mentioned.
Another example is Tillandra's father from Royal Bastards, who also wanted what was best for his country and his daughter, but ended up losing his country and turning his daughter against him. However, I have already written so much about Memory, Sorrow and Thorn that it is clearly time for me to stop.
Mod
For my self, I tend to be light vs dark, and I write in a way that supports the light shines brightest when the dark is at its darkest.
The last book I wrote was about the bad guys, the next one is about the light. There will be some light against light in that. Not that anyone is bad, but that there are differences who is doing it better, and what that may lead too... Its kind of the big sin of the whole series.
Not to distract from this engrossing exchange, but I just have to applaud Jabotikaba. A villain who not only cooks and eats his fish, but rapes them first, is hilarious. I want to see this in a book as a major character.
Mathew wrote: "Not to distract from this engrossing exchange, but I just have to applaud Jabotikaba. A villain who not only cooks and eats his fish, but rapes them first, is hilarious. I want to see this in a boo..."Thank you! I really wanted to come up with something that was cruel, perverted and utterly idiotic at the same time.
I don't know how to incorporate this into a book because I'm not a writer, unlike you. But perhaps I could sell this idea, and a couple of other equally extravagant ones, to a writer in need of inspiration?
Then they might stop rewriting the same story about a vampire, elf or dragon king falling in love with a common mortal girl and making her his queen.
And what fantasy elements draw you in?