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American Notes for General Circulation Vol. 2 (hosted by John)
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Julie
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Mar 27, 2025 05:01PM
I have also very much enjoyed this book and this read, and second Jean's thanks, John!
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I came across this today about Twain and Dickens. It is well written and does indicate that Twain admired Dickens.It was rather interesting that Twain heard Dickens speak during his 1868 tour, and was on a first date with his future wife.
Ron Chernow, the author of Alexander Hamilton, is due out with a biography of Twain in May.
https://airshipflamel.com/2014/10/08/...).
Julie wrote: "John wrote: "I also recall that James was rather snobbish about Dickens. Perhaps Julie would know?"Good question, and all I've got is that James referred to 19th c novels as "loose, baggy monster..."
Fascinating Julie because to me it sounds like James is referring to his own books. I remember reading in college The Portrait of a Lady and found it to be a slog. But his The Turn of the Screw was a good story that actually worked to a great extent because his meandering prose lent itself to “is that a ghost I see?”
I have been silent for a few days because I’ve been processing Dickens’ numerous postscripts to his travelogue. The edition I borrowed from my local library (St. Martin’s Press 1985 printing) presented each postscript as it was originally included, so I have been able to process Dickens’ thoughts as he edited each edition.I found Dickens’ descriptions of America and Americans in the two postscript chapters to be so deeply unfair and offensive that I thought it would be best to keep my opinions to myself. But after reading the 1868 postscript that he asked to be included in each subsequent printing, I was somewhat mollified to see that the passage of 25 years changed Dickens’ attitude toward America. To me, it seemed that his main grievances with America in 1842 was that, unlike Canada, it was no longer British. America was finding its own way, and he was not happy with the speed of its progress. When admonishing the Americans to have a “greater encouragement to lightness of heart and gaiety, and a wider cultivation of what is beautiful, without being eminently and directly useful,” Dickens objected to Americans so often reminding him that “We are a new country” - he saw that “as an excuse for defects which are quite unjustifiable.”
I thought it somewhat ironic and amusing that Dickens chided Americans for their Universal Distrust, yet stated in his 1868 preface that “My readers have opportunities of judging for themselves whether the influences and tendencies which I distrusted in America had, at that time, any existence but in my imagination.
There were so many passages like these, that I will stop there. I know Mark Twain’s The Innocents Abroad, Or, the New Pilgrims' Progress is not popular with all modern readers, but taken in the context of Twain’s humor and his times, I found it extremely informative (like Dickens’ American Notes, I loved that Twain provided detailed information of Europe and the Middle East in the mid 1850s). It was in Twain’s nature to find humor around him, and yes, sometimes, he did poke fun at people and places, but that was just Twain being Twain. I never found his writing to be mean-spirited. In his conclusion, Twain wrote “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things can not [sic] be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime”.
Regarding Twain’s views on Dickens, I found this description in my copy of Mark Twain A-Z: The Essential Reference to His Life and Writings by R. Kent Rasmussen (in scope, this is similar to John Forster’s The Life of Charles Dickens):
Dickens led a life similar in some ways to that of Mark Twain—whose own career as an author was starting just as Dickens’s was ending.
Mark Twain began reading Dickens’s books around the mid-1850s. In 1879, he called himself a great admirer of Dickens and said that every two years he reread A Tale of Two Cities (1859). He never met Dickens face to face, but visited his grave in London’s Westminster Abbey in 1872. In the late fall of 1887, Charles Dickens Jr. visited him at Hartford while on a reading tour of his father’s works.
John wrote: "I came across this today about Twain and Dickens. It is well written and does indicate that Twain admired Dickens.It was rather interesting that Twain heard Dickens speak during his 1868 tour, an..."
Oh... we cross-posted, John. I'm so glad you found another reference concerning Twain's opinion of Dickens. I think you can see from my post that Mark Twain is a favorite of mine (he won me over many years ago with his beautiful tribute to Joan of Arc - Joan of Arc - whom he had admired since a child and spent 12 years researching). I, too, wanted to clear Twain's name in this regard. ☺️. Thank you!
John, I want to thank you so much for leading this discussion of American Notes for General Circulation. It can't have been easy as each chapter covered so many different topics. I loved your summaries and the additional information you provided.Jean and Peter, thank you both as well for providing so much additional information in your great reservoir of Dickens knowledge. This was another wonderful experience learning from you as well. And thank you also to all of our members who provided their insights and opinions. I always learn so much more in these discussions than I could possibly have ever learned on my own.
Thank you!
What first attracted me to this book was, of course, my interest in anything Dickens. Secondly was my interest in journey books — also known as travel books, but I like the word journey better. Lucinda Hawksley has written that American Notes was one of the first journey books. So, as with other literary achievements, this is another belonging to him.I’ve started another journey book: Becoming Odyssa: Adventures on the Appalachian Trail. The author, Jennifer Pharr Davis, is a good writer and is telling a good story.
One of these years, hopefully, I’ll make a journey myself to Santa Cruz California and attend the annual Dickens Conference.
https://dickens.ucsc.edu/
Mod
Thanks, John, for leading this great discussion. I'd never read this book before and enjjoyed experiencing it with the group and learning so much more too. Thanks to all for a great discussion too.
Thank you, John, for leading the discussion of this travel book. You, Jean, Peter, and the other members of the group made it such an interesting experience.
JohnIt was great to read and discuss a work by Dickens with you again. Our journey through ‘American Notes’ was all the better because of the other participants who shared their insights and comments.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share the journey by offering some observations about the Canadian portion of the book.
Mod
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "The edition I borrowed from my local library (St. Martin’s Press 1985 printing) presented each postscript as it was originally included, so I have been able to process Dickens’ thoughts as he edited each edition ..."
Your thoughts on this were so interesting Shirley, and like me you interpreted that Charles Dickens thought after his second visit to the USA part of the continent that that he might have been unfair to some aspects. (He also makes the point though that America had changed enormously in 25 years, thereby not fully retracting anything he said. 🤔)
Kathleen very reasonably objected to Charles Dickens's not crediting the source material he used for the section on slavery. And John had told us that it was from a pamphlet by Theodore D. Weld. So I wondered if Charles Dickens had in fact mentioned this in any of his edits?
Louise H. Johnson discovered the provenance, in her article on "The Source of the Chapter on Slavery in "American Notes"" in American Literature, vol 14. Jan. 1943. Apparently Stonehouse listed the pamphlet as being in Charles Dickens's library. She also said that some of his criticisms were merely paraphrases of the comments by the author.
Even Theodore D. Weld himself had not been credited on the title page of his original pamphlet! 😲 It was published by the Anti-Slavery Society in 1839. And Harriet Beecher Stowe later drew on it for some of her scenes in Uncle Tom’s Cabin in 1852.
I do agree with you Kathleen, from a modern point of view that an author not being credited seems most unfair! I also wonder if Charles Dickens even knew who had written it. But it was normal for the time to have "in-house" authors, and some of those writers who produced serials for Charles Dickens's own magazines were not credited at the time. e.g. Wilkie Collins was only able to put his own name to The Woman in White after the serial, when it was on stage and in book form.
So all in all, Charles Dickens was just following the fashion or status quo. We may be surprised that he was so incensed by the lack of copyright law in the States, and yet did not see the simple justice of crediting an author in a periodical, but at the time he told his "in-house" authors that this way they were free to publish it elsewhere afterwards. He himself had been tied up with contracts he had committed to (as we saw with Oliver Twist) so I do believe he thought he was being fair; he was just a man of his time.
John wrote: "I’ve started another journey book: Becoming Odyssa: Adventures on the Appalachian Trail. The author, Jennifer Pharr Davis, is a good writer and is telling a good story..."I'm so glad you brought this up, John! It reminded me of a book I've had on my TBR for way too long. It's about a 67-year old grandmother, Mrs. Gatewood, who left home one day in 1955 to hike the entire 2,050 mile Appalachian Trail solo. (I believe she made several additional hikes of the AT later.) Her inspiring story is told here:
https://grandmagatewood.com
Ben Montgomery wrote a book about her journey in Grandma Gatewood's Walk: The Inspiring Story of the Woman Who Saved the Appalachian Trail.
I need to go ahead and read it. Talk about courage and self-determination!
I would like to add one more comment about Dickens' last postscript chapter.One thing I failed to mention is that it became readily apparent that Dickens' diatribe against the members of the press was because of their attacks on his appeals for copyright laws. As I've been mulling that over, I wondered if any biographer or historian has ever put together some of those newspaper articles to show Dickens' readers what he was up against. It would definitely put Dickens' outburst against the press into context of what he was experiencing.
Mod
But just to nail this ... so you did not find that Charles Dickens had credited Anti-Slavery Society or Theodore D. Weld at any time, in the extra edits you found? (I would not really have expected him to, for the reasons I gave.)
Leaving your other question to John ...
Bionic Jean wrote: "But just to nail this ... so you did not find that Charles Dickens had credited Anti-Slavery Society or Theodore D. Weld at any time, in the extra edits you found? (I would not really have expected him to, for the reasons I gave.)..."I just went through all of the edits again, Jean, and I didn't see any mention of sources for material used in either of the two postscript chapters ("Slavery" and "Concluding Remarks").
Like Kathleen, I was surprised that Dickens did not cite his source(s) for the pamphlet and/or the newspaper articles he cited, but perhaps any pamphlet or newspaper content (including the advertisements regarding slaves) was considered public property? But in this case, I would be more concerned with an author citing a source (a newspaper, for instance) that could not be found and its contents verified. Those were different times, of course, and I can see why copyright laws were so needed, to even be able to track down sources.
Mod
I didn't consider the lack of citations to be an issue because I saw the slavery chapter more as an oopinion piece, an editorial. We moved on from that chapter quickly, and given it is unpleasant for some to read, I can understand ut still had some questions. First, I thought it a well-argued essay and I am curious if anyone ran across evidence of it having any impact on abolition or proslavery advocates in America in leading towards war or especially those in Europe in persuading leaders on which side to support? My second question was regarding Dickens' Unitarian involvement. Did the U.S. trip strengthen his affiliation and/or his view on slavery?
I am just catching up with a few of the comments and questions here.Dickens wrote in the Slavery chapter that he was quoting “specimens” of “advertisements” in the “public papers.” When I look at that wording, he almost seems to be trying very hard to say this is but a mere percentage of the terrible doings that are already in the American public sphere. The words themselves are a “distancing” from the need to provide attribution. I believe he felt that no special citation was needed because this was already “out there.”
I was reminded of something the great novelist Zadie Smith wrote about Dickens. I always felt that she seemed to have a “love-hate” relationship with him. Her last novel The Fraud has Dickens as a character in it and she is very unkind to Dickens. I remember she wrote somewhere that Dickens was on the wrong side of colonialism in Jamaica, but never amplified that. I felt she was making a statement about his view on slavery, but it was very oblique.
This is a fascinating subject and further comments are welcome. I cannot find anything that showed an impact that Dickens had on American abolitionists. The abolitionists seemed to emphasize Emerson the most.
John wrote: "What first attracted me to this book was, of course, my interest in anything Dickens. Secondly was my interest in journey books — also known as travel books, but I like the word journey better. Luc..."Winds of the Steppe: Walking the Great Silk Road from Central Asia to ChinaJohn, you might also enjoy Bernard Ollivids’s walk, beginning in 1999, following the Silk Road, from Istanbul to China. He did it in 4 years, He describes his walk in three volumes, beginning with Out of Istanbul: A Journey of Discovery along the Silk Road, and continuing with Walking to Samarkand: The Great Silk Road from Persia to Central Asia and Winds of the Steppe: Walking the Great Silk Road from Central Asia to China.
We listened to the English versions from Audible.
Kathleen wrote: "John wrote: "What first attracted me to this book was, of course, my interest in anything Dickens. Secondly was my interest in journey books — also known as travel books, but I like the word journe..."Thanks Kathleen. Will add this to my list.
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "John wrote: "I’ve started another journey book: Becoming Odyssa: Adventures on the Appalachian Trail. The author, Jennifer Pharr Davis, is a good writer and is telling a good story..."I'm so glad..."
I am enjoying Jennifer Pharr Davis’ book about her Appalachian Trail hike. It is a grueling undertaking.
Mod
This is a fascinating subject and further comments are welcome. ..."
I have two books on this:
Dickens and the Children of Empire, which is a collection of scholarly essays edited by Wendy S. Jacobson (2000) and Dickens and Empire: Discourses of Class, Race and Colonialism in the Works of Charles Dickens by Grace Moore (2004).
I only acquired them at Christmas - and in fact the latter one only arrived from the USA about 10 days ago - so I haven't read them yet. However Peter has written a very complimentary review about the latter one.
Both use postcolonial theory to challenge long-held assumptions about the way we interpret Charles Dickens's texts.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Both use postcolonial theory to challenge long-held assumptions about the way we interpret Charles Dickens's texts..."I've read your statement several times, Jean, but I'm afraid I'm just not understanding it. I've never heard the expression "postcolonial theory", but I'm assuming it means how our ideas have changed about colonialism in literature? If so, I can kind of see how that would apply to a novel like E. M. Forster's A Passage to India. But in regards to Dickens, where his novels took place (for the most part) in England with primarily British characters, how would a postcolonial theory apply to what or how he wrote and how we interpret his texts? I hope I'm not going off into the weeds here, but I am interested in understanding how Dickens is now being interpreted.
Mod
We have seen that Charles Dickens was passionate in his anti-slavery views, and was so disgusted by what he saw of it in America that he changed his itinerary to avoid more examples. This was the Englishman's view at the time. The mainstream view until recently was that Charles Dickens was a man of his time, who viewed colonialism as a benevolent system: Britain taking care of her colonies because their people could not organise themselves.
However, those involved in postcolonial studies now theorise that we should look more carefully at the subtext in his writing. And if you read the section "Controversies over Dickens' racism" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_...
it suggests that Charles Dickens's attitudes were complex - eg. the reference to his essay on "The Noble Savage".
But I think we need to read the books Shirley! Peter might be able to give an example.
Bionic Jean wrote: "But I think we need to read the books Shirley!..."If I'm understanding you correctly, Jean, I wholeheartedly agree. When I read a novel, I try to read it through the eyes of the author (their times, their norms, etc.). I appreciate the historical context because it helps expand my knowledge and understanding of history.
Mod
Exactly! And sometimes we think we understand the Victorian mindset, but may make assumptions. On the other hand, some critics read an author and interpret using their own agenda - slotting them in to fit their own ideas. We need to beware of both approaches, I think; it's difficult to assess any piece of writing without preconceived ideas.
Interesting commentary. I was somewhat surprised by Zadie Smith’s comments and also how she portrayed him in her book. She is a brilliant writer. But we have to be mindful that no one is perfect. The good outweighing the bad rings true with Dickens as much as anyone.As an old English major, I have always wondered — how did my professors teach texts? Did they teach close reading, whereby you try to read a text as a solitary thing independent of the author?
In my case, I don’t think they taught close reading. But college was 45 years ago for me and perhaps such reading was not taught at the time. I will say I love my school and professors, though. And as much as I enjoy biographies and studies of Dickens, I much prefer to practice close reading of his novels.
A brief interview with Zadie Smith about Dickens and slavery.https://slate.com/culture/2023/09/zad...
I read her book The Fraud. I liked it, thought it was a long book and lost me at times. But it was interesting and Dickens was a character in it. He came across as, well, I am searching for the right word. Let me try unctuous.
But, if one thing rang true, the other writers in the book, and by extension, Smith herself, revered his immense creative powers.
I got about halfway through the slavery chapter before life (and several library books that were coming due!) sidetracked me. It may be another week before I'll have time to get back to the end of American Notes and all of your comments, by which time I imagine the group will have moved on to Gaskell. Thank you John and Jean for inviting me to participate! It was a very different experience to read something non-fiction by Dickens. Prior to this, I'd only read his Life of Our Lord and some of his observational Sketches, neither of which are are quite the same. It would be interesting to revisit Chuzzlewit now, with this new insight into Dickens' experiences fresh in my mind.
Mary Lou wrote: "I got about halfway through the slavery chapter before life (and several library books that were coming due!) sidetracked me. It may be another week before I'll have time to get back to the end of ..."It would probably behoove me to read Chuzzlewit now because I have never read it. For many years, I had Chuzzlewit in a trade paperback and it was such a fat book, for lack of a better word, that I was always daunted by it and never tried.
I agree, as we’re primed for it now
John wrote: "I am just catching up with a few of the comments and questions here.Dickens wrote in the Slavery chapter that he was quoting “specimens” of “advertisements” in the “public papers.” When I look at..."
Thanks for your comment. I thought there might be a link through the Unitarians but that is something to research another day. In the meantime these two articles are interesting relating how history is interpreting Dickens' opinion on slavery and the American Civil War.
https://emergingcivilwar.com/2018/02/...
https://studycivilwar.wordpress.com/2...
I do hope anyone interested can access the links.
Otherwise, thanks again John for your presentation and expertise.
Mod
Good to have you along Mary Lou, and we hope you'll come back with your thoughts. This thread will move to the themed "All Around Dickens Year" folder shortly, before finding its final place in our Dickens Travelogues folder next year. It will remain open for further comments by future readers.
And I hope you'll join us for another Dickensians! read - or visit a past one - soon 😊
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Fraud (other topics)A Passage to India (other topics)
Dickens and Empire: Discourses of Class, Race and Colonialism in the Works of Charles Dickens (other topics)
Dickens and the Children of Empire (other topics)
Walking to Samarkand: The Great Silk Road from Persia to Central Asia (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Zadie Smith (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Grace Moore (other topics)
Wendy S. Jacobson (other topics)
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