The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Perfection
International Booker Prize
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2025 Int Booker shortlist - Perfection
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I know that but don’t ruin the joke. I am surprised the books are so different - I only sampled from an ecopy but I thought at least structure and plot wise they were very similar.
Are they different? Not read Perfection yet.Actually this one is pretty Oulipan - there are whole sentences from Flaubert worked into the text as well as plot elements borrowed from him.
I used Flaubert on three levels: first, the three-part sentence rhythm, which had become a kind of personal tic; second, I borrowed some exemplary figures from Flaubert, ready-made elements, a bit like Tarot cards--the journey by boat, the demonstration, the auction, for instance.... And third, there are sentences copied over, purely and simply pasted in. (1965 interview translated by David Bellos)
He goes on to say the book is a collage of three other works as well - and that he in many respects wants to rewrite earlier works. So the project of re-writing Les Choses is a rewrite of a rewrite.
Sorry I see now you say “Hoping Pefection is different”. The App cuts off the first word of that sentence which rather alters its meaning (Goodreads app is very odd in his otters words from posts)
Interesting choice, as with Perec, to begin a novel with 4 pages of text that is best skipped other than perhaps a taster of the first few lines. Or did others read that in either book and find it interesting?
The choice was to follow Perec - the book then has to begin like this and actually it skewers very well an Instagram aesthetic and other dream the couple bought into. The choice in displayed Radiohead album Paul is critical in orienteering the shallowness of their aspirational lifestyle in your eyes - I hope you did not skip that sentence
I skipped the whole first chapter except the final page. The originalI Italian would have made as much sense.I've gone back for a quick look and don't recognise a Radiohead album - there are only three aren't there Pablo Honey, The Bends and TheOneWhereItStartedToGoWrong. As far as I'm concerned any novels after Marvin's cameo appearance were from a different band.
I've actually asked ChatGPT to translate the book for me:It's turned:
Sunlight floods the room from the bay window, reflects off the wide, honey-coloured floorboards and casts an emerald glow over the perforate leaves of a monstera shaped like a cloud. Its stems brush the back of a Scandinavian armchair, an open magazine left face-down on the seat. The red of that magazine cover, the plant’s brilliant green, the petrol blue of the upholstery and the pale ochre floor stand out against the white walls, their chalky tone picked up again in the pale rug that just creeps into the frame.
Into:
Sunlight comes in through the window, lighting up the wooden floor. A large leafy plant sits nearby, its stems touching the back of a plain armchair with an open magazine on the seat. The magazine cover is red, the chair is blue, and the walls and rug are white.
This:
Next, the living room, where a jungle of low-maintenance, luxuriant plants shelter in the nook of the bay window: the lush monstera stretching its shiny leaves towards the outside world, a fiddle-leaf fig almost touching the ceiling from its huge faux-concrete pot, trailing ivies and hanging peperomia on display across two wall shelves, and string of pearls and Chinese money plants whose tangled foliage reaches all the way to the floor. In one corner, arranged on a collection of stools and upturned boxes, is a miniature forest of alocasias, giant euphorbias, weeping figs, downy-stemmed philodendrons, strelitzias and dieffenbachias.
Becomes:
The living room has many plants, some reaching the ceiling, others trailing from shelves. A group of smaller plants sits on stools and boxes in one corner.
(I may feed it the whole novel - as an aside this is what ChatGPT is very good at)
And of course this is precisely where GPT fails so badly as it is literally missing the entire point of the passage. If that was an English exercise to summarise a passage it would be marked a Grade 2/9 I think (2 for SPaG, 0 for understanding).
I also asked it for a playlist including Papa Roach and Kraftklub - it's first suggestion was LCD Soundsystem which I see they also have. And Fake Plastic Trees from an actual Radiohead album.It also threw in Bo Burnham – "White Woman’s Instagram" and St. Vincent – "Digital Witness"
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3Mq...
Fake Plastic Monstera Plants would fit better!
There's something almost Dadaist about you two at times.
Alwynne wrote: "There's something almost Dadaist about you two at times."I'll take that as the complement which may not have been intended :-)
Finished the novel. For me it works best when it mirrors Perec's work, and less well otherwise (the sex scene element felt a big miss for me).But it's passages like this which are great:
They would have liked to have been in their twenties for the summer of 68 or when the Wall fell. Previous generations had had a much easier time working out who they were and what they stood for. The problems back then might have been more urgent, but they also had clearer solutions. Now there were too many choices, with each one leading off on endless branches, preventing any real change. Their idea of a revolutionary future didn't go beyond gender balance on corporate boards, electric cars, vegetarianism. Not only had Anna and Tom not had the chance to fight for a radically different world, but they couldn't even imagine it.
That nostalgia was a little hypocritical. The migration crisis had hovered at the edges of the headlines for years, but they had dismissed it as a Mediterranean problem, and therefore no longer theirs. It didn't concern them in Berlin, or only in the theoretical way injustices committed far away could be said to concern them.
C,f, Perec's couple from the early 1960s:
It seemed to them that there they had found a path, or an absence of path, which defined them perfectly, and not just them but all those of their age. Earlier generations, they would sometimes tell each other, had probably found it possible to reach a fuller awareness of themselves and of the world they lived in. They would have liked, perhaps, to have been twenty during the Spanish Civil War, or during the Resistance: in fact, they talked about it a great deal; it seemed to them that the problems facing people then, the problems they imagined people facing, were clearer, even if the need to respond had turned out to be more pressing. As for themselves, the questions that faced them were all booby-traps.
Their nostalgia was slightly hypocritical. The Algerian war had begun with them and was being pursued before their eyes. It hardly affected them; they took action on occasions, but they rarely felt obliged to do so.
Given the nature of Latronico's project is was disappointing that he seemingly had not chosen to include those elements that Perec in turn borrowed from Flaubert - the journey by boat, the demonstration, the auction etc.
I assume this part is from the original sentence by sentence rewrite and I agree works excellently.
I’d have like to have seen more like that and less of the sex clubs which didn’t really even seem to fit the theme that much but felt there to sell more copies.
Paul wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "There's something almost Dadaist about you two at times."I'll take that as the complement which may not have been intended :-)"
Definitely not an insult!
it seems that read in comparison, the novel might become more interesting. yet as a work in its own, I thought it was just ok.
I’m late to this conversation, but it’s funny… I just started reading this, and couldn’t put my finger on what it was reminding me of. Until I saw Alwynne’s podcast tag earlier. I read Things: A Story of the Sixties / A Man Asleep years ago for the 1001 books you must read before you die list, and they are similar. So far, I can’t say which I like better.
Perec's Things: A Story of the Sixties is indeed usually published, in English at least, alongside A Man Asleep and Perec has described the second as something of a counterpoint to the first, from an obsession with possessions to an obsession with indifference. A Man Asleep is for me the much stronger work, and I suspect a modern update of that would have made for a stronger 21st century novel as well. My review of both: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
And refers to something that I has been meaning to pick Paul up in - he said the sex scenes etc but fit the novel at all and (something like) “were just there to sell more copies” whereas I saw them as an important extension of the idea driving the novel (a dissatisfaction from striving for an unattainable perfection suggested as normal by digital media)
Yes I found it interesting that the two parts of the book that he sees as deliberately different to Perec:- the sex scenes
- that this is a lifestyle of which he is part, rather than commenting on
are the weakest parts of the novel.
Its value is as a Perec rewrite - remove that and it is shallow and uninteresting.
Really liked the interview, thanks for posting.This in particular caught my eye: "We spoke in German or English but the Germans couldn’t read my books and the Americans couldn’t read my books or the Germans’ books. We’d talk about Sheila Heti or Rachel Cusk but not about what we were doing. It’s part of the reason I moved back."
I definitely have this sensation, living in a non-English speaking country, that even as English speakers are (finally) discovering literature in translation, other cultures are reading more and more translations from the English to the exclusion of others. Even when there are translations from other languages, it often seems to come via the success at English publishing houses. Notably, I have not seen a Spanish or Catalan translation of Perfection, but if it wins or is shortlisted, I thoroughly expect to.
The Spanish translation was published few years ago (2023) by Anagrrama. It's worth mentioning that they've published Pérec's few years ago No Catalan translation though
Mohamed wrote: "The Spanish translation was published few years ago (2023) by Anagrrama. It's worth mentioning that they've published Pérec's few years ago No Catalan translation though"
Thanks! I missed it I guess. It's got the proper pedigree anyway, very hipster publisher in both Spanish and English!
Emily wrote: "I definitely have this sensation, living in a non-English speaking country, that even as English speakers are (finally) discovering literature in translation, other cultures are reading more and more translations from the English to the exclusion of others. "This is a bit of a reason I have a problem with this label of 'books in translation', which is overwhelmingly anglo-centric. It's making the assumption that English is the language translated to, not from. It assumes English as the 'default' language, similarly to how for some reason a 180 lb. man is a 'default human' in the eyes of scientific inquiry, even though they're... not.
I read in multiple languages - if I can read the original language I will do that first (with a bit of an exception for French, which I'm working on), and when I do read books in translation, they are not always to English - I read a lot in German translated from other languages - mostly Nordic, but recently also Hungarian and Polish. My aim is to read widely, but it doesn't make it 'better' if it's translated per se. A book written in English is not elevated once it's translated into other languages. Translation is fantastic because it gives access to books and perspectives that otherwise wouldn't be available, but in the other direction translation from English is also contributing to the homogenization of world culture.
I've actually struggled to find Booktubers from other countries whose languages I speak who don't read the same darn overwhelmingly English books (whether hip Booktok or classics) as the English-language mainstream. I've finally found a few channels that skew more literary and read a decent amount of books written in their own languages and/or books translated from languages other than English. Yay. :)
Anyway, when folks say 'books in translation' isn't what they really mean 'books not originally written in English'?
I don't know. I think "books in translation" is fair enough as a term for primarily anglo readers discussing their reading habits. But I'd be curious what some of our non-anglo fellow readers here feel about both where translations are coming from in their languages and how much English literature is homogenizing the local lit scene.
I mean, the other day were were discussing the top-ranked Dutch books from some list and number 1 had not been translated to English, but sometimes I'll look at the random American books I see available in Spanish and think, did the world outside of America really need this book?
Emily wrote: "I mean, the other day were were discussing the top-ranked Dutch books from some list and number 1 had not been translated to English, but sometimes I'll look at the random American books I see avai..."Exactly. I'd say the vast majority of English best-sellers really don't 'need' a translation - but they think they'll sell, so they do.
The Dutch really are prolific for the size of their population, and it's hard to get a handle on what they're publishing that is worthy but doesn't get English translation. German will sometimes get translations that English doesn't, but I have to know to look for them... (and then I'd have to figure out how to get my hands on them...)
Emily wrote: "I mean, the other day were were discussing the top-ranked Dutch books from some list and number 1 had not been translated to English, but sometimes I'll look at the random American books I see avai..."I think since my language area (being Dutch) is so much smaller than English, I mostly consume translated literature through English translation, making the term still useable and applicable for me.
Sometimes there are quite interesting differences, for instance the latest Han Kang, Haruki Murakami and Olga Tokarczuk were all translated earlier in Dutch (as was Perfection).
Emily wrote: "I don't know. I think "books in translation" is fair enough as a term for primarily anglo readers discussing their reading habits. "Well, sure, but it has that assumption that folks are primarily anglo readers. I'm in a bunch of places online where, yeah, the majority of the group is anglo readers, but there's enough whose first language is not English that I find it not particularly inclusive, especially when it seems in some spaces it's become a bit of fetishization - how many books did you read in translation? And if you're not reading primarily in English, how does that track?
I'm probably touchy because, since I'm interested in diverse world literature I hang out in these spaces where this get asked a lot, and it's a hard one for me to answer - I read about 70% in English these days, some of that is in translation of course, but when I answer that question, do I include the 30% of my reading that isn't in English, or only the percentage of that that wasn't in the original language there? Which is why I have pondered 'what is the real question being asked here??' I know I'm overthinking this! LOL.
Erin wrote: "Emily wrote: "I don't know. I think "books in translation" is fair enough as a term for primarily anglo readers discussing their reading habits. "Well, sure, but it has that assumption that folks..."
I agree it's a fetishization in various online spaces! And I agree that "what is the real question here" is the real question... not just in terms of language but in terms of the value being assigned to "difference."
Henk wrote: "Emily wrote: "I mean, the other day were were discussing the top-ranked Dutch books from some list and number 1 had not been translated to English, but sometimes I'll look at the random American bo..."Actually, I should have expected this of Perfection, being a Fitzcarraldo book, that it would be generating buzz in Europe first.
Tokarczuk is interesting here. She was translated to Spanish after English (at least Flights), and my feeling was she was not very well read until the Nobel. And possibly still isn't.... Han Kang seems to have much more traction. Maybe because she seems more "exotic."
Emily wrote: "I agree it's a fetishization in various online spaces! And I agree that "what is the real question here" is the real question... not just in terms of language but in terms of the value being assigned to "difference.""Yes, this is what I was trying to get at... :)
Henk wrote: "Sometimes there are quite interesting differences, for instance the latest Han Kang, Haruki Murakami and Olga Tokarczuk were all translated earlier in Dutch (as was Perfection)."Yes, Dutch is often ahead of the curve! A real country of readers. :) I followed a Dutch booktuber (who isn't active anymore, sadly) who didn't limit her presentation to the books she read in English, so I got an early heads-up on some books that weren't yet out in English (and wasn't clear if they would be) - I still can't read Dutch fluently, but those books were often also out in German and/or Spanish and I could access them that way.
This is an example of one of the lines that endear this novel to me. They were heading to an event the woman had heard about on Twitter and to which a famous billionaire with ambitions to resettle humankind on Mars had apparently showed up, but at some point the woman decided the photo was photoshopped, a promotional hoax, and redirected the driver towards a house party.
With no prior familiarity with Perec, I quite enjoyed this. It definitely had satirical elements but was kind of gentle satire - you get the sense that the author sympathizes with Anna and Tom, rather than intending to skewer them.I really loved a couple of passages that capture relating (or not) in the days of Facebook, "They didn't often talk to people back home - perhaps the constant spectral presence of the image eliminated that need - but reading about their promotions and newborns and seeing pictures of their class reunions made anna and Tom feel that they were still somehow part of their lives." But they weren't. This is the creepy thing about Facebook I noticed from the very beginning, the false sense of intimacy that makes you feel like you know what's going on with people without going to the trouble of actually connecting with them. I thought the author did a nice job of showing how the loneliness wrought by this kind of "connecting" impacted Anna and Tom more and more.
I also thought the whole section describing their "imprecise liberal left" was brilliant and spot-on.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Things: A Story of the Sixties / A Man Asleep (other topics)Kochen im falschen Jahrhundert (other topics)
Mythologies by Roland Barthes (other topics)
Perfection (other topics)
It’s also very non Oulipan indeed he had nothing to do with Oulipo at that point. He wasn’t a member till 1967.