Ersatz TLS discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Weekly TLS
>
What are we reading? 17/02/2024
Robert wrote: "It felt like the author was going through his list of characters, checking them off. Hard cheese for a first-time reader.."I often read books which are part of a series... and it seems they fall into roughly two categories - those with quite a few recurring characters, and those without. Obviously, if there are many such protagonists it helps to have read the books roughly in order, especially if the author doesn't do much to refresh/reintroduce/introduce a character. It must be difficult for authors - too much repetition is annoying for 'loyal readers'; too little may baffle new ones.
scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "areas in Sicily that speak Albanian,."I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also speak a distinct dialect of Italian which is signif..."
I haven't actually been to Sicily, so I'm not sure. I think there is a fairly heavy use of dialect in Sicily and the Naples region, but their accents are so impenetrable that they could be speaking Urdu for all that I know. Actually, when they filmed the Gomorrah television series here in Italy, the actors all spoke in Neapolitan dialect and they had to use subtitles as no one else in Italy would have had the foggiest idea what they were saying.
Generally, when they do interviews or news reporting and someone replies in dialect, they run subtitles even when its fairly understandable.
AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe sc..."
Yes, that's the only point at which I feel my age. All of the many, many bones I broke or joints I dislocated in my stupid youth have come back to haunt me. Otherwise, 49 is just fine. I still have all of my hair and obesity hasn't set in, so it could sure be worse
scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "areas in Sicily that speak Albanian,."I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also speak a distinct dialect of Italian which is signif..."
I tried reading one in Italian but realised I would need a Sicilian dictionary!
Mod
I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also speak a distinct dialect of Ita..."
The French translator is praised for how he deals with the dialect. Certainly he does much better with Catarella than in the English translations I've read.
scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "Oh God no, The opposite. The youth are utterly without hope here. Nearly half of Italian college graduates flee the country after graduation. The rest shutter themslves into "secure" c..."There are very many people who do not want all immigration banned, but it is possible that many people are concerned that we don't know who/what we are letting into the country. Rightly or wrongly.
I don't visit the Guardian as often as I used to since I got banned. But it seems to me, when I do, that they open far fewer articles for comments than they used to. Is that my imagination.
scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "50 won't be bad. It will definitely feel like a no way back point though, like you said."Let's face it - any year, any day, any minute - there is 'no way back', unless you are able t..."
Brings it home a bit doesn't it scarlet? Sorry for your loss if that is not too trite a comment.
When friends talk about being old I often say "but at least we are still here"
giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "Oh God no, The opposite. The youth are utterly without hope here. Nearly half of Italian college graduates flee the country after graduation. The rest shutter thems..."they seem to have almost dropped comment sections from any controversial political events and topics, anything to do with Gaza, Trump or racial politics seems to be now "off topic".
the mods dont help, they seem to have no balance or pragmatism and i complained only be batted back to talk to "moderation", which is not what i wanted
Paul wrote: "Actually, when they filmed the Gomorrah television series here in Italy, the actors all spoke in Neapolitan dialect and they had to use subtitles as no one else in Italy would have had the foggiest idea what they were saying..."Is that also the case for the TV series based on Ferrante's 'Brilliant Friend' books?
We also saw a good Italian series based in Sicily called 'Mafia only kills in summer'.
AB76 wrote: "they seem to have almost dropped comment sections from any controversial political events and topics, anything to do with Gaza, Trump or racial politics seems to be now "off topic"..."I agree that the number of columns on which readers can comment has been reduced... maybe the number of mods employed is smaller than it used to be. Certainly, some mods are far too 'sensitive' when it comes to removing comments.
On the other hand - if I understand correctly - on X you have a bunch of neo-fascists running riot and saying what they like, including the most absurd lies. (I'm not on X so don't have any first-hand experience.)
I am enjoying my binge reading the Yorkshire Murder mysteries. But I don;t think it needs so much of the dialect bit of thi t' and suchlike. And would reporters coming to the scene of the crime have shaved heads, beards, earrings and be drinking gin and tonic?
Paul wrote: "All of the many, many bones I broke or joints I dislocated in my stupid youth have come back to haunt me.."You don't have to be young to do this - I broke a femur and, later, my pelvis - in my 50s!
giveusaclue wrote: "Brings it home a bit doesn't it scarlet? Sorry for your loss if that is not too trite a comment.When friends talk about being old I often say "but at least we are still here".."
Thanks... what I say when someone mentions our old age is that "remember - the alternative is much worse!". I met an old school friend today - I've known him since around 1960 - and we chatted about absent friends and ailments - as codgers do - but spent far longer on other stuff such as the art exhibition (Munch) I'll be attending next month, and galleries in London and Amsterdam.
scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Brings it home a bit doesn't it scarlet? Sorry for your loss if that is not too trite a comment.When friends talk about being old I often say "but at least we are still here"....."
Hope you have a great time. And I hope your knee is better now.
Mod
RussellinVT wrote: "Not getting much reading done here – quite a lot of snow and frigid cold and deep ice, so busy with plowing and sanding and shovelling paths, and exchanges with the oil company on whether it is saf..."Sound well out of my comfort zone. Best of luck to you. It has become rather warmer here today 14°C but grey and drizzly.
My morning spent at the solicitor's to arrange for a new Will - thrilling. But better this evening as I am going with a neighbour to see a National Theatre Live performance of The Importance of Being Earnest.
Mod
Exactly the same here :)
giveusaclue wrote: "RussellinVT wrote: "Not getting much reading done here – quite a lot of snow and frigid cold and deep ice, so busy with plowing and sanding and shovelling paths, and exchanges with the oil company ..."mild here too, 12c, windy and wet, warmest weather since december in the shires
I thought I would point out that tonight (Thursday 20th) on BBC Four they are showing the 1991 film, directed by Mike Newell, of the book by Elizabeth Von Arnim, 'Enchanted April', I am sure there are a few here who have commented on it in the past, and would perhaps like to see it. It has a good cast, including Joan Plowright, Miranda Richardson, Alfred Molina, Jim Broadbent etc. I loved the book, read many years ago. It's on at 9 PM....
Mod
Loved the book and have been meaning to watch the movie – on one of our streaming channels here.
Mod
14C sounds positively Hawaiian to me. Minus 13C is what we’re expecting tonight.
scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "areas in Sicily that speak Albanian,."I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also speak a distinct dialect of Italian which is signif..."
A friend of Sicilian ancestry said that the Sicilians never thought of themselves as Italian.
Robert wrote: "A friend of Sicilian ancestry said that the Sicilians never thought of themselves as Italian.."Indeed... I'm sure that impression is implied (or maybe even stated) in Camilleri's books. Another interesting fact I learnt from the series concerns the existence of the trading language 'Lingua Franca' or Sabir. I'd hear of 'Lingua Franca' before in this sort of meaning:
"a language that is adopted as a common language between speakers whose native languages are different.."
but not in the specific historical sense employed by Camilleri:
"The Mediterranean Lingua Franca, or Sabir, was a contact language,[1] or languages, that were used as a lingua franca in the Mediterranean basin from the 11th to the 19th centuries.[2] April McMahon describes Sabir as a "fifteenth century proto-pidgin" and "a relic of the original Lingua Franca, a medieval language used by Mediterranean traders and by the Crusaders."[3] Operstein and McMahon categorize Sabir and "Lingua Franca" as separate but related languages."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediter...
I do enjoy learning new stuff in tales which are superficially 'entertainments' - most recently, a bit about the language and history of the Masurians.
Mod
I said I was thinking of re-reading and have now started. I agree with what Robert has said.
The books are based on her own experiences and her own marriage. She's certainly not complaisant in describing the circles Harriet (her heroine) is moving in.
Here's a short article about her:
https://www.penguin.co.uk/discover/ar...
Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "areas in Sicily that speak Albanian,."I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also speak a distinct dialect of Ita..."
yes the albanian speakers are the Arbereshe people, who have had some influence in Italy. There are also small catalan communities in the south, a legacy of past empires.
I think in the early 19c, this community was much larger than now, the census records from around 1820 show around 80,000 Orthodox believers, of Albanian heritage but by the official censues of the 1880-1936 period, they were barely 6,000, of course many probably converted to Catholocism and the Eastern Catholic Abereshe are not recorded seperate to Roman Catholics.
Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "areas in Sicily that speak Albanian,."I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also speak a distinct dialect of Ita..."
The problem with Italy is that NOBODY thinks of themselves as Italian. Italy is a political construct of loosely connected city-states and religious fiefdoms. Garibaldi amalgamated a geographic assortment that never much wanted to exist as a country. There is no national identity. The only time, the ONLY time that Italians come together as a nation with a shared identity is during the World Cup. That's it.
Otherwise it is a strictly local, bloodline determined affiliation of local cities. I know second generation Milanese, people whose familes have been here for 60 years, who still prefer to themselves as Ligurians or Pugliese. It's not the same sense of the immigrant diaspora in the Americas where people will call themselves IRish American or Italian American, because there the primary identification is always as Americna/Chilean/Argentian.
Italy is very much a series of tiny eugenic competitions and it makes effective immigration quite literally impossible. This could generally be said of most European "integration" models, but Italy is surely at the extreme end of ius sangue in-built racism at microscopic geographic levels. The approach to immigration being adopted by the right in the USA is already the default position throughout much of Europe and is certainly so in Italy.
AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "areas in Sicily that speak Albanian,."I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also speak a distinct..."
I know quite a few Sicilian Abereshe people, and they are quite a bit more than 6,000 nowadays,
Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: "areas in Sicily that speak Albanian,."I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also spe..."
good to hear that Paul,i know that the Argentine author Ernesto Sabato was of Abersehe descent and there is a community in Argentina
A famous modern Abereshe in Italy is the footballer Antonio Candreva.
On non Abereshe Italian matters, i am really enjoying the De Cespedes novel Forbidden Notebook, it keeps getting better, if darker, it almost reads like the perfect domestic novel. A novel of the inner world of a nuclear family, husband-wife-daughert-son and the slow burn situations that are everyday but wear people down, basically a realist novel, sharply focused.
Gpfr wrote: "Robert wrote: "I've gone back to Olivia Manning's Balkan Trilogy..."Each to their own. An admirer wrote this in the TLS:
"Near the end of Olivia Manning’s Friends and Heroes (1963), Guy and Harriet Pringle worry that “the war could devour their lives”. Their anxiety is oddly belated. Friends and Heroes is the final volume of Manning’s Second World War saga The Balkan Trilogy. By this point in the series the Pringles are refugees, displaced from their Bucharest home by the German occupation of Romania, resettled precariously in Athens while hoping Greece can avoid a similar fate. Just a few chapters later, with invasion imminent, they are crammed with a motley array of other British expats on to a ship bound for Egypt. It is characteristic of the Pringles, though, and also of Manning’s particular and peculiar genius, that in the midst of all this upheaval, it is the persistence of their daily lives that they feel most acutely. World historical events loom ominously on the horizon, but the Pringles (and thus we) are most concerned with what, in the circumstances, seem like trivialities.
For much of the trilogy’s first volume, The Great Fortune (1960), for example, Guy – a lecturer in English literature, stationed in an early 1940s Bucharest on the cusp of joining the Axis powers – is consumed with mounting an amateur production of Shakespeare’s Troilus and Cressida."
https://www.the-tls.co.uk/literature-...
What the reviewer describes as "Manning's ... peculiar genius" felt to me like an incredibly unfeeling response to the fairly clear (and, TBF, honestly described) suffering of the poor Romanians (ie the impecunious: the rich just float along, as usual). A bizarre form of blindness. You see - but you don't feel.
As I said earlier, if Manning had been intending her book (I could only bear to read one) as some sort of satirical exposé of the expatriates, then I might have liked it. It didn't read like that, and no one has yet suggested that it was intended that way. So... just no.
But we're all different!
(And I would prefer to watch Midsomer Murders than the news ATM. As a cartoon in the current 'Private Eye' has it - a newsreader says: "Everything is shit! - so here is Jenny with the weather..." A deliberate avoidance of the news is sort of understandable - up to a point.)
Paul wrote: ".The problem with Italy is that NOBODY thinks of themselves as Italian. Italy is a political construct of loosely connected city-states and religious fiefdoms. Garibaldi amalgamated a geographic assortment that never much wanted to exist as a country. There is no national identity. The only time, the ONLY time that Italians come together as a nation with a shared identity is during the World Cup. That's it.Otherwise it is a strictly local, bloodline determined affiliation of local cities. ."
Very interesting indeed... I was aware of differing regional histories, but not that - assuming you are right - they are much stronger than the so-called 'national' identity.
FWIW - 'national identity' is IMO an exceptionally wooly concept. Within ANY group - no matter how small - you will find a variety of tastes and opinions - unless, I suppose, you are forced to conform to a very narrow and rigid code by threat of death (or similar) as in some extreme religious communities.
I got into it (a bit) on the G recently when someone (an admirer of Kingsley Amis) attempted to defend his writing by claiming that his books had value because he had something sensible to say about the "Welsh national identity", after living there for 12 years or so. I'm Welsh, have lived here for some 55 years on and off, and yet I would hesitate to say anything at all about 'national identity' - a silly concept based, no doubt, on stereotyping.
scarletnoir wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Robert wrote: "I've gone back to Olivia Manning's Balkan Trilogy..."Each to their own. An admirer wrote this in the TLS:
"Near the end of Olivia Manning’s Friends and Heroes (1963),..."
i'm avoiding the news more, for the first time in my life, the Ukraine and Trump stuff is nauseating
AB76 wrote: ".i'm avoiding the news more, for the first time in my life, the Ukraine and Trump stuff is nauseating."Quite so, though I daresay both of us are aware of the broad outlines, rather than being totally ignorant.
scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: ".i'm avoiding the news more, for the first time in my life, the Ukraine and Trump stuff is nauseating."Quite so, though I daresay both of us are aware of the broad outlines, rather t..."
for me avoiding the news is only watching 80% of it tho...lol
Mod
As I said earlier, if Manning had been intending her book (I could only bear to read one) as some sort of satirical exposé of the expatriates, then I might have liked it. It didn't read like that, and no one has yet suggested that it was intended that way. So... just no.,..."
I don't think that 'satirical' is precisely the word, but she is definitely not painting a favourable or unaware picture of the expats, including the husband, Guy, who is blind to a lot of things.
Harriet's reaction to the beggars when she arrived in Bucharest reminded me of myself going to live in Lisbon in 1969. I used to have nightmares about them.
AB76 wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Robert wrote: "I've gone back to Olivia Manning's Balkan Trilogy..."Each to their own. An admirer wrote this in the TLS:
"Near the end of Olivia Manning’s Friend..."
I'm waiting for Trump's reaction when Putin says he is taking Alaska back, or Mexico decide Texas is theirs!
Mod
How was it?
I've just been reading an article in The G about National Theatre Live: https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2...
The Comédie Française does the same thing here.
Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "a National Theatre Live performance of The Importance of Being Earnest. ..."How was it?
I've just been reading an article in The G about National Theatre Live: https://www.the..."
It was absolutely hilarious. Really enjoyed it.
scarletnoir wrote: "Paul wrote: ".The problem with Italy is that NOBODY thinks of themselves as Italian. Italy is a political construct of loosely connected city-states and religious fiefdoms. Garibaldi amalgamated a ..."Interesting comments. My friend said that Sicily had been invaded so many times that there are quite diverse pockets of people near each other-- that you can still find villagers whose red hair comes from their Viking ancestors-- and completely different people in the next village.
Gpfr wrote: "I don't think that 'satirical' is precisely the word, but she is definitely not painting a favourable or unaware picture of the expats, including the husband, Guy, who is blind to a lot of things..."Indeed... though as the war impinges so slightly on the author's own obsessions (IIRC) you could say the same about her/her narrator!
Mod
Indeed... though as the war impinges so slightly on the author's own obsessions (IIRC) you could say the same about her/her narrator!"
Yes, absolutely. They're also both very young and naive ... And not alone in their unawareness, thinking of books like Julia Boyd's Travellers in the Third Reich.
Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree!
Mod
As well as heading for WWII with Olivia Manning, I've been in a WWII military hospital with Christianna Brand: Green for Danger, a British Library Crime Classic. This was recommended in an online talk about the series which MK and I listened to. I noted the title at the time but only recently bought it.
I'll look for more of her books.
Gpfr wrote: " As well as heading for WWII with Olivia Manning, I've been in a WWII military hospital with Christianna Brand: Green for Danger, a British Libr..."i had a look at this a fww months back, interested to see what you think
i will be dipping into crime for a rare moment, reading Macdonalds The Drowning Pool, after i finish De Cespedes
for all buzzatti fans, NYRB continue their brilliant run of editions of his work the latest: The Bewitched Bourgeois: 50 StoriesI aim to read one of the new NYRB editions soon, possibly his sci fi novel
Mod
I read this last year. I said at the time:
I've read Macdonald's The Drowning Pool, following the Ross Macdonald praise here :)
This is an early book, the second in the Lew Archer series, a well-written, hard-boiled American noir. I read somewhere that it's the most "formally accomplished" of the series. Obviously I can't comment on the accuracy of that as it's my first.
Christianna Brand: Green for Danger
I enjoyed this. Apparently she is fond of the device used here where there's a small group of suspects known from almost the start. Some misleading red herrings ... Interesting to see the life of the military hospital and the role of the VADs.
Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Macdonalds The Drowning Pool..."I read this last year. I said at the time:
I've read Macdonald's The Drowning Pool, following the Ross Macdonald praise here :)
This is an early book..."
thanks for that GP!
VS Naipauls Among The Believers dates from 1982 and follows the great writer through Iran, Pakistan,Malaysia and Indonesia, on the hunt for the islamic "converts" from the ancient worldsAs usual with non-fiction by Naipaul, its dry, witty and cerebral, i have just finished the first section where he visits Iran and is shines light into the dusty corners of the weeks after the fall of the Shah. Naipaul finds pockets of freedom, hyprocasy and the slow onslaught of the religious forces hijacking the revolution and turning Iran back in time.
The next section is in Pakistan, where time also turned backwards from the late 70s as Islamist generals shackled Jinnahs vision of a truly progressive state. This section will probably interest me the most
Its almost a year since i started subscribing to The Times Literary Supplement and its been a revelationI used to pick up a copy before a holiday and usually found it a bit of a muddle, with lots of shorter, less interesting articles than the NYRB or LRB. But as its a weekly, i appreciate its depth over 12 months and the fact i have found new books and new articles that passed the NYRB or LRB by.
After finishing another excellent weekly edition, i recommend it to all!
4got to add, small article by Tim Parks on translation, he fed various italian novels into an AI translator and found the versions were almost perfect, inc some dialect works of Pasolini. Sobering to see AI can do this...
Mod
Wow - that doesn't sound good for professional translators. I also used to know someone who was a simultaneous translator in the EU Parliament. Sounds to me as if all those jobs are under threat as well.
RussellinVT wrote: "AB76 wrote: "...4got to add, small article by Tim Parks on translation, he fed various italian novels into an AI translator and found the versions were almost perfect, inc some dialect works of Pas..."I wrote about this problem in my 'Book of Hours'. It does indeed have some repercussions, but what is needed is the talent on the ground, in real time, who can pick up the obviousness of many 'mis-translations, and at the moment I don't think that AI would be much good at that.
"I must point out here some of the hazards of ‘translation’. This particular one was done by a British translator, so it’s not surprising that the words chosen have an extra ability to resonate on my own ‘plane’ of understanding. I have a favourite mis-translation story from the early days of EU expansion, where the conditions of entry of either Lithuania or Estonia were being discussed.
The negotiations went on late into the night and were quite exhausting for all sides. One tired and fraught negotiator had a late-night attack of whimsical reverie and quoted “the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing”.
In order to indicate that they were willing to press on to the end, only to find out that the Russian translator quoted them as having said “the meat is bad, but the vodka is OK”. Though just a light piece of entertainment, the outcome wasn’t threatened, but in most cases of political, and personal negotiations, the outcomes do matter a great deal. Therefore, establishing a common understanding of the meaning of words is vital. Once ‘the ‘genie’ is out of the bottle’, it’s hard to go back."
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Ersatz TLS
Books mentioned in this topic
The Fatherland Files (other topics)The March Fallen (other topics)
The History Man (other topics)
The Lamb (other topics)
The Vegetarian (other topics)
More...
Let's face it - any year, any day, any minute - there is 'no way back', unless you are able to hitch a ride in Dr. Who's Tardis!
I don't care about age at all so long as health is good (or 'as good as can be expected'). It hits you, though, when someone your age dies. My friend who died early this month was 77 - the age I'll reach (I hope) in October.