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What are we reading? 17/02/2024
interested to hear about welsh education in schools
Thanks G for the new thread. At least the old thread livened up again over the last week!Look forward to hearing from scarlet.
Have you read any of the J R Ellis series?
https://www.fantasticfiction.com/e/j-...
I'm having a bit of a binge on them at the moment. Wasn't as keen on the first one but glad it didn't put me off continuing.
Having been spoiled with The Eagle and the Hart and Henry V, I hope that 2025 will bring me more medieval history books to enjoy.
Mod
No, I'll have a look, thanks.
At the moment I'm reading the latest Ian Rankin, with Rebus in prison: Midnight and Blue.
I've read and enjoyed the 3rd of my birthday presents to myself, one of the British Library Classic Crime series: Tea on Sunday. It was actually published in 1973, but as Martin Edwards says, it reads like a book from earlier times.I'm baffled by the cover — I like these old railway posters and it's true that it's the Yorkshire coast and part of the story is set in Yorkshire. I suppose it's also true that the detective travels to Yorkshire by train, but this looks like summer holidays, blue sky, beach, vivid blue sea ... the story takes place in the depths of winter.
Mod
and I see the J R Ellis books are set in Yorkshire :)
Alba De Cespedes is becoming a real sensation now, Pushkin have just released a third novel of hers in translation.Forbidden Notebook, her 1952 classic is getting darker and darker, not in a thriller or a crime novel style but just in the basics of family fractures and pressures.
The novel is a very precise, day to day study of the problems life confronts us with, told in a quite spare style and there is a quiet sadness at the heart of it. Its quite unlike the majority of Italian literature i have read from that period, i dont feel it has been influenced much by the male novelists of the time but it is distinctly Italian, or more specifically Roman, a tale of Rome.
I am about half way through and enjoying it, some of the observations and comments are just brilliant, through the eyes of a mother, the complexity of that most complex of roles.
Mod
Pending comments from scarlet, I remember being in a café in Aberystwyth over 40 years ago (so before Welsh was taught more widely in schools?) and there were two teenage girls at another table chatting away happily in Welsh. I’d never come across it before as a living language.
Giveus – You might be interested to take a look at a forthcoming book called something like Accidental Death in Tudor England by Prof Steven Gunn, who as a sideline to his main late medieval/ early modern interests, has made a study of how people died e.g. from taking medicine. Sounds like a fund of plot ideas for historical detective authors.
Gpfr wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "it's the Yorkshire coast and part of the story is set in Yorkshire...."and I see the J R Ellis books are set in Yorkshire :)"
Yes they are, like several of the series I read.
https://www.fantasticfiction.com/sear...
When is your birthday? I know we have a few this month (including mine).
I have Midnight and Blue on the TBR digital pile. I gave up on the last one, so you will have to let me know what you made of it in due course.
RussellinVT wrote: "Thanks for the new thread, GP. I actually think the three-week cycle worked fine.Pending comments from scarlet, I remember being in a café in Aberystwyth over 40 years ago (so before Welsh was ta..."
Thanks for the heads up, I will take a look.
Mod
Well, as I said before, when I was a child in a Welsh primary school, we all had to learn Welsh and that was 70 years ago when my father was posted there. There was a kind of double stream of classes, one where the teaching was in English (except for those Welsh lessons) and one taught in Welsh. My brother-in-law, some years before that, didn't really speak English until he went to grammar school. His family spoke Welsh and the village primary school he went to was all Welsh.
My 3 nephews speak Welsh , one of them married a Welsh speaker and their children speak Welsh, but I'm not sure to what extent the next generation do.
Mod
It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter's is on the 5th.
Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter's is on the 5th."
Many happy returns to you both and scarlet. Mine is 23rd. I have a feeling that AB's is February too.
giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter's is on the 5th."
Many happy returns to you ..."
yes i regrettably turned 49 on the 13th but it was very low key, i am not happy to be almost 50
AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter's is on the 5th."
Many h..."
Regrettably? It's better than the alternative AB. You need to celebrate your half century next year.
p.s. I'm 77 on Sunday!
giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter's is on the ..."
i apologise, as one of the youngest here, i should not be complaining about my age and i hope you have a great birthday
its great to see the age range in here , people who have read and enjoyed books far longer than i have!
Mod
This remarkable book was apparently written by a slave girl in the 1850s, and first published only in 2002. It is presented as a Novel. I actually preferred the passages that appeared to stay closer to her experience in real life, horrible as that was. There the prose is stately and melodic, and the sentences have a wonderful balance which seems to come to her naturally. The more novelistic passages were variable. Fervent conversations recalled in improbable detail had the manner of a romance and struck me as less convincing despite the seriousness of the subject. Other parts of the story were truly terrible and are recounted with force. But in every respect it is definitely a remarkable work, created by a girl with no schooling who nonetheless acquired an education (so, a slave-owner’s English wife, discovering his slave mistress and children secreted in the house, “more resembled a Fury of Orestes than a Christian woman”). She is not above displaying her talent for wit, she loves to roll the words she has learned and adopted (imbue, epicurean, resplendence…), and she habitually expresses her deepest thoughts in the language of the King James Bible.
Gpfr wrote: "Welcome to the new thread.AB76, giveusaclue and I had some comments and questions about speaking Welsh — scarletnoir will respond in due course.
Wishing you all lots of good books."
First of all - thanks for the new thread.
Second - to try to answer some of the questions on Welsh education to the best of my ability, I'll do it a little at a time. The background to all this is the gradual erosion of funding for education... it's true that with devolution, funding within Wales is 'controlled' by the Welsh government so they could spend more on education - which would mean less on something else (NHS, social care, whatever) - but the overall settlement is based on the outdated and unfair Barnett formula which has benefited Scotland but penalises Wales. There are other issues, such as the fact that Wales has had to contribute to the cost of the HS2 rail link/white elephant even though not an inch of line is in Wales (or anywhere near it), and also despite an academic investigation finding that HS2 would be detrimental rather than beneficial to the Welsh economy... all that because the London government deemed HS2 to be an "England and Wales" project. (Scotland and NI don't pay a penny; the cost to Wales is between £350 million and £2 billion, depending on how you do the sums and which political party you believe.)
So, that's the background - education is underfunded because the overall 'cake' has got smaller in the last few years. If you give more to education, you have to cut elsewhere.
First question: do all pupils in Wales have to learn Welsh? Yes they do - either as a first language in Welsh medium schools or a second language in English medium schools. There is a third category of 'bilingual' schools. The decision on which category a school should belong to is determined by the local authority (presumably in consultation with the schools). The Welsh government wishes to increase the number/proportion of Welsh speakers, and intends to do this by encouraging schools to teach subjects other than Welsh through the medium of Welsh. (This would have been impossible 50 years ago as the textbooks didn't exist - but they do now.) In theory it is an admirable ambition, but I doubt that the number of teachers fluent in Welsh is sufficient for this to be implemented everywhere, so realistically it is more of an aspiration - IMO, anyway. (I used to train teachers, including through the medium of Welsh.)
So far as it goes, IF pupils from non-Welsh speaking households are to become fluent, then they need significant exposure to Welsh from their earliest years. It's much harder to teach a new language to older pupils.
Second question - is it more difficult for non-Welsh speakers to find employment in Wales?Up to a point. There are laws which require larger institutions to provide paperwork and services for customers in Welsh as well as English, so a certain amount of work is available to translators. Also, for those larger institutions, it is expected that there will be some provision for customers to be able to carry out their business in Welsh, should they prefer to do so. I'm reasonably sure these rules don't apply to small businesses, and I reckon the laws/regulations are interpreted flexibly. At times, on the 'phone I select an option to deal with an institution in Welsh, but the person who answers the 'phone is English speaking. I just carry on in English in those cases... I don't know what would happen if I refused. Perhaps the person would have to find a Welsh-speaking colleague!
In job adverts, you may see something like 'Welsh desirable' or 'Welsh essential', depending on what it is. Both central and local government departments of any size will need a minimum number of Welsh speakers, but not all such employees will speak Welsh. In some institutions, meetings are held bilingually, and simultaneous translation is used. In others, if it's deemed to be mainly Welsh speaking, then those who aren't fluent have to survive as best they can. Madame worked in a school where meetings were held in Welsh - at first she had to ask a colleague to explain what was being said; late, she developed a decent passive understanding while not being a confident speaker, except at basic daily chat level.
scarletnoir wrote: "Second question - is it more difficult for non-Welsh speakers to find employment in Wales?Up to a point. There are laws which require larger institutions to provide paperwork and services for cus..."
Finding a colleague when working from home could be a challenge! 🤔
Thanks for the information scarlet and I'm impressed with your wife's ability.
Mod
This was the case for my sister, though I don't think she ever spoke Welsh except to some extent with her grandchildren when they were small.
AB76 wrote: "Alba De Cespedes is becoming a real sensation now, Pushkin have just released a third novel of hers in translation.Forbidden Notebook, her 1952 classic is getting darker and darker, not in a thri..."
Ahh good to hear. With her new found prominence in translation, De Cespedes is also being printed and talked about here in Italy as well. I haven't read her yet, and hope she'll be a bit more to my liking than Natalia Ginzburg.
AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter's is on the 5th."
Many h..."
I was right there, 4 days behind you. Staring down a half century is sobering. Spending it in Italy, moreso.
A last comment on Welsh from a historical perspective. It was interesting to read in The Fatherland Files how Masurian - either a separate language or a dialect of Polish, depending on POV - was gradually discouraged and then eliminated by Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masuria...It seems to be a technique of nation and empire builders to require that their own language should replace that of native populations, at least as far as official business is concerned. The same sort of thing happened in France where there are many such languages (Breton, Basque, Occitan etc.) and in the UK as far as Welsh (and, I daresay, Irish and Scottish Gaelic) are concerned. My own grandmother attended school when its lessons were entirely in English - even by old age, she remained far more fluent in Welsh. As a result of teaching, dissuasion and even punishment, 'native' languages are gradually replaced by that of the dominant nation. Although in the 19th C. most people in Wales spoke Welsh, by 1911 only 43.5% did so. By now, the figure is around 18%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_l...
This has some social consequences: some more extreme Welsh speakers refuse to speak English (or only when there is absolutely no option); some regard monoglot English speakers with hostility; and some in education and official positions don't make it easy for English speakers. Of course, this is a tiny minority within a minority, but it can obviously be upsetting and is unnecessary and absurd. I think they feel that "the boot is on the other foot" to some degree. But it's daft.
On the other hand - some incomers are so absurdly hostile to people speaking Welsh in their presence that they claim that they are being deliberately excluded from conversation, or become paranoid that they are being abused in a language they don't understand - a bit like the paranoia of self-conscious teenagers. The most popular urban myth about this is that "As soon as I walked into the pub/shop, they all switched to speaking Welsh!" This is nonsense: as anyone who has lived in a bilingual context knows, people code switch rapidly and at random depending on who they are talking to... plus, as a person may not know the 'correct' word in Welsh (English has an amazingly rich vocabulary) they will often borrow, and speak a bit of 'Wenglish'.
At lunchtime on Sunday, I was amused by our daughter, who spoke using a mixture of all three of her languages, often in the same sentence! I don't do that to the same extent - I'm a bit more aware of what language I'm using - but there are times when I simply can't remember the correct word, and have to 'borrow'.
Most people, fortunately, are good natured about all of this and behave sensibly.
One last anecdote about switching: many years ago, I was travelling from Portsmouth to Wales in a car with our daughter... following us was a German lady who'd come to the school on an exchange, with her husband and two boys. We stopped at a pub for lunch and started talking... the husband was African, from Cameroon. After a while, I became aware that some people at other tables were staring at us - and when I thought about it, no wonder! For the conversation went like this:
German lady to kids - German
Her husband to kids - French
Me to German lady - English
Me to husband - French
Me to daughter - Welsh
Daughter to others - anything but German!
It must have seemed like the Tower of Babel! :-)
scarletnoir wrote: "A last comment on Welsh from a historical perspective. It was interesting to read in The Fatherland Files how Masurian - either a separate language or a dialect of Polish, depending..."Me to husband?
scarletnoir wrote: "A last comment on Welsh from a historical perspective. It was interesting to read in The Fatherland Files how Masurian - either a separate language or a dialect of Polish, depending..."A friend of mine moved with her husband to Germany after the Rolls Royce collapse in around 1972. She had two daughters and generally spoke to the older one in English and the younger one in German, presumable because her German had improved by the time daughter no. 2 came along.
I believe in Italy that even 100/150 years ago most Italians spoke a form of dialect and not Italian. I guess unification helped to change that. In northern Italy a few years ago I was hoping to practise my Italian, just to find the locals talking in German.
giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "A last comment on Welsh from a historical perspective. It was interesting to read in The Fatherland Files how Masurian - either a separate language or a dialect ..."There are still many dialect speakers in Italy, particularly amongst those 70 and older. Sud Tirol is predominantly German speaking, and rather elitist/racist about it. There are still pockets of dialect around. Villages in Campania that speak a derivative of Greek, areas in Sicily that speak Albanian, areas of Veneto that communicate almost entirely in blasphemy... but for the most part, dialect is not taught in the public schools.
From a personal side, I have to say that spoken Italian remains beautiful to my ears and I have yet to encounter a dialect that doesn't seem guttural in comparison (particularly here in the north with bresciano, bergamasca and milanese which seem like private language for truck drivers and poachers).
Paul wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "A last comment on Welsh from a historical perspective. It was interesting to read in The Fatherland Files how Masurian - either a separate la..."areas of Veneto that communicate almost entirely in blasphemy..
😂 Bit like Glaswegian then?
Mod
Having now finished the latest Rebus, I find it an improvement on the one before — I was getting very tired of Rebus's dealings with his long-time adversary Rafferty. Rafferty is now dead, Rebus in prison where he gets involved in trying to solve a murder (of course!), Malcolm Fox is around, more and more despicable, Siobhan is on the case ...
Mod
I remember reading in Figes' Natasha's Dance that during the 19th century, when the Kingdom of Warsaw was within the Tsarist Empire, Polish students of literature at Warsaw University were required to study the classics of Polish literature in Russian translation.
Gpfr wrote: " Having now finished the latest Rebus, I find it an improvement on the one before — I was getting very tired of Rebus's dealings with his long-time adversary ..."Sounds more promising.
Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter's is on the ..."
how does 49 feel? Happy Birthday!
is italy very youth orientated then?
Paul wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "A last comment on Welsh from a historical perspective. It was interesting to read in The Fatherland Files how Masurian - either a separate la..."i think Pasolini and Buzatti were interested in the Fruili/Veneto dialect, writing some poetry in it, one or the other anyway.
Jannik Sinner is a Sud Tyrol-er and i there was a girl on a language course i did in Berlin who was from Trento, at a time when i didnt know that German was spoken up there
AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter..."
Oh God no, The opposite. The youth are utterly without hope here. Nearly half of Italian college graduates flee the country after graduation. The rest shutter themslves into "secure" contracts with lifetime guarantees for which they don't appear to do much and are paid even less. It's a country that fairly openly ignores anyone under 30 as it shambles into a mausoleum.
Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well..."
that made me laugh!
49 isnt old by any means but it does feel kinda almost like a "decisive" age, like 50 will be a "no way back" age
Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Alba De Cespedes is becoming a real sensation now, Pushkin have just released a third novel of hers in translation.Forbidden Notebook, her 1952 classic is getting darker and darker, ..."
sometimes these authors who get re-discovered are not my kettle of fish and i get bored of the upteenth review taking up space in journals and newspapers but as i got into De Cespedes early and enjoy her work, that isnt the case
AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well? My daughter..."
49 feels better than 40, to be honest. More water under the bridge, more acceptance of what has been, more things won and merit gained. 50 won't be bad. It will definitely feel like a no way back point though, like you said
Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe scarlet as well..."
turning 40 was fun, it felt a bit like 40 was the new 30, i was happy with mentioning it, not so much 49!
more acceptance is a good point...in terms of visible markers of age, i'm actually doing ok, no grey hairs, losing some on top but mostly visible to taller people only (lol) and i'm not overweight but the niggles, shoulders, necks, knees and all that keep getting that little bit harder to shake off
in may i randomly pulled an intercostal muscle in my left side, it faded, then came back just as 5 neices and nephews were running me into the ground in July and the second time was really painful, physio sorted it but thats the first time such a random injury had such impact, which i link to age
AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too and maybe sc..."
Wait until until you need a new hip and a new knee like two us in the last year or so!
giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "When is your birthday?..."It was the 3rd. I remembered you were February, too..."
good point!
Gpfr wrote: "Welcome to the new thread.AB76, giveusaclue and I had some comments and questions about speaking Welsh — scarletnoir will respond in due course.
Wishing you all lots of good books."
Thanks for the new thread.
Gpfr wrote: " Having now finished the latest Rebus, I find it an improvement on the one before — I was getting very tired of Rebus's dealings with his long-time adversary ..."It felt like the author was going through his list of characters, checking them off. Hard cheese for a first-time reader.
This appeared late in the last thread:I've gone back to Olivia Manning's Balkan Trilogy. It had been long enough since I last looked at this series that I reread most of the middle portion "The Spoiled City," and have read a few chapters of the third book "Friends and Heroes."
My interest was piqued by the uncertainty of this 1940-1941 world. Invasions by Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini in other countries change the perspectives of residents of Romania, and, now, Athens. Mussolini has attacked Greece. Will a trek to Egypt follow?
I had forgotten how sharp Manning's pen was when she sketched the physical details of cities and landscapes. She has a limited circle of characters-- so many faces, but they belong to foreigners who cross the paths of the English. The work in depth centers on a small group of English expatriates-- but what detail about their lives and emotions!
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giveusaclue wrote: "Me to husband?..."Me to "German lady's" husband - sorry if that wasn't clear.
Paul wrote: "areas in Sicily that speak Albanian,."I got the impression from reading Andrea Camilleri's 'Montalbano' series that Sicilians also speak a distinct dialect of Italian which is significantly different to the Italian equivalent of 'BBC English'. Or used to, anyway.
scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Me to husband?..."Me to "German lady's" husband - sorry if that wasn't clear."
😄
Gpfr wrote: " Having now finished the latest Rebus, I find it an improvement on the one before — I was getting very tired of Rebus's dealings with his long-time adversary ..."Good to know - I felt like you about one or two of the recent books. There is a risk of our heroes outstaying their welcome! (In a similar vein, I found the most recent Walter Mosley/Easy Rawlins story better than the previous one.)
RussellinVT wrote: "Polish students of literature at Warsaw University were required to study the classics of Polish literature in Russian translation."Sounds very likely, and is the sort of thing that happens in these circumstances.
AB76 wrote: "Jannik Sinner is a Sud Tyrol-er..."That explains it - I always thought his name sounded odd for an Italian. (He's in a spot of bother these days...)
Paul wrote: "Oh God no, The opposite. The youth are utterly without hope here. Nearly half of Italian college graduates flee the country after graduation. The rest shutter themslves into "secure" contracts with lifetime guarantees for which they don't appear to do much and are paid even less. It's a country that fairly openly ignores anyone under 30 as it shambles into a mausoleum..."There was a fascinating article in the Guardian yesterday, which had predictions regarding population growth or loss with and without immigration for each European country. With ageing populations, the numbers would decrease dramatically without immigration, it seems. Yet against this background, the extremists would have all immigration banned - even of 'desirable' people willing to work in health and social care - already heavily dependent on immigrants in many countries.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-...
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Fatherland Files (other topics)The March Fallen (other topics)
The History Man (other topics)
The Lamb (other topics)
The Vegetarian (other topics)
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AB76, giveusaclue and I had some comments and questions about speaking Welsh — scarletnoir will respond in due course.
Wishing you all lots of good books.