The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Hester
Hester - Mrs Oliphant
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Hester - Week 2
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I liked how the dynamic between Catherine and Edward was explored further. I knew Edward had his own agenda and seeing how his facade disappeared during the conversation in chapter 8 was interesting "like a snarl of contempt and despite, but it disappeared in a moment”. I wonder what he has discovered with the papers that could “ruin them all”??
I think the Captain is worried about the real character of his grandson. Maybe the father of his daughter’s children was not a particularly good man and fully accepted by the Captain. Then the daughter died pretty young. Maybe she was charmed into a relationship that turned out badly.
Hester’s situation regarding the marriage proposal also reminded me a little of Gwendolyn’s in Daniel Deronda, but I admire Hester for her decision. The marriage could have improved her and her mother’s life financially very much, but she would have been in a kind of golden cage. For her plain mother this might have been enough (and was enough probably when she got married), but for the strong-minded Hester this would not have been sufficient.
I'm pretty sure this is not going to be the common sentiment, but I was touched and won over by Harry's solid good qualities and the fact that he respected and admired Hester's intellect and energy. I was moved by how much thought he had put into how to arrange things for Hester and her mother's comfort. I loved the proposal scene because it seemed to me that, yes, Harry wanted Hester to help him run his house, an idea that intrigued her, but Hester had also actually won Harry's heart. Or at least she was starting to.
I hoped that if Hester married Harry she could fulfill many of her grander goals (not just putting her mother back in her old house), and her desires to set things right, like hosting social gatherings but making sure it is those who have less who are given the most. I didn't see it as her being in a golden cage because I didn't think Harry would cage her.
But maybe he would have, and it was just wishful thinking on my part.
And in a later chapter Hester reflects that Harry would never have been able to conclude anything based on her gait, the way Edward could, an apparently telling lack in her mind.
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I was also torn since Henry is a good man and Hester would have a lot of freedom and agency as his wife. But then, she is very young and doesn't love him...
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Yes, I thought of that too - the mother's wishes and the temptation of money in both books.
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I think her attachment to the old couple is interesting. They are apart from the game of trying to impress others and prove their worth. They are authentic, as opposed to all the people talking about gossip and "interesting pictures", music, the weather, etc. at Catherine's parties.
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I agree with you Jaylia, that Harry seems a good man, as we earlier saw in his attentions to the "poor relations" at Catherine's parties-and I think he would make a good husband and son-in-law. However that isn't enough of a foundation for marriage for Hester, and so be it. Edward certainly showed in this section that he has a more sinister core, and I am glad that Hester shows no particular love for him at this time.
There is certainly something intriguing about Roland, and the mystery of why Captain Morgan doesn't want him to meet Hester. In a more modern novel I would be concerned that the older man has become besotted with Hester and therefore doesn't want his grandson meeting her, but suspect that the real reason lies in some issue with his son-in-law/Roland's father.
I was also unclear about the final sentence in the section-I assume Roland is also somehow related to Catherine, then, and perhaps Captain Morgan suspects ulterior motives from Roland's coming around-trying to get something out of Catherine and now possibly trying to forge a relationship with young Hester.
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For a time, I thought that the marriage proposal was sincere and made a lot of sense. Hester would certainly have got her own back on Catherine by being raised to her class and importance, in fact, it was all too good to be true. And then I thought ‘wait a minute we’re not even a third of the way into the book yet - this is not the time to tidy things up for Hester and her mother’. As I anticipated, she refused him (or at least avoided the affirmative).I thought Harry put his case over very eloquently. In fact I could’ve cried for him, poor devil! It usually bores me when I read of a man making a marriage proposal - but not this time.
I thought chapter 9 was well written. The captain called Catherine‘s lost love.’ a cad.’ Did the captain know his identity and was he shielding Hester from the truth by denying he knew him?
Chapter 13 - I seriously think that Catherine is not really a good person at all, nothing but a control freak - we shall see!
Chapter 15 - poor Edward, he behaved outrageously but I felt sorry for him having to admit he was envious of Harry’s circumstances.
Chapter 16 - I was totally confused about the change of attitude with Captain Morgan, and in the final paragraph the captain seems to be talking to himself in riddles. My conjecture is that the clue lies with our recently arrived antagonist - his face hidden, etc. I believe that Roland is set to change the course of the whole novel. Has he some connection with Edward’s pile of papers’ that could ruin them all?’ (Thanks to Daryl for reminding me).
I can’t wait for the next reading *******************
Lori wrote: "In this section, Hester receives a tempting marriage proposal. What would you have done in Hester's place?..."I'm more practical than romantic. So, recognizing the limited career paths of women, that marriage was my future life and being stuck in this house with, outside of Edward who has passed on making any advances so far, no likely prospects, I'd have jumped at the chance.
Correction... not jumped at, but I would have coyly left Harry awaiting while I "took a few days to sort my feelings." Harry seems turned on by that sort of action on my part so it would make him want me more. He's so easy.
Besides the mentioned advantages: Mom's pleasure, stable income, home, etc.., Harry's personality is such that he would be pleasant and easy to live with. And if I ever did fall in love, I could have a torrid love affair that I'm sure Harry would choose to ignore as long as I kept it private. What more could a girl want? True love? As if!
Lori wrote: "What do you think is Edward's true character? ..."
The most intriguing part of this section was Oliphant's endowing Edward with less positive attributes. He comes off two-faced and grudgingly accommodating toward Catherine and envious of Harry's position while he's stuck entertaining the old battle-ax. Granted, though, at this point Edward was frustrated by seeing Harry do wooing that perhaps he entertained doing before thinking better of it due to Catherine.
But my answer to your question in that I don't know yet. See the next part of my comment.
Neil wrote: "I seriously think that Catherine is not really a good person at all, nothing but a control freak - we shall see!.."
Yes we shall. This is the sixth Oliphant book I've read. I like that she has complex characters. However, I have noticed that when she thinks a character is getting too good or too evil, she has a tendency to create their complexity by attributing conflicting motivations to her character in an attempt to bring them back from the precipice. So if Catherine is resenting Hester too much or too often, Oliphant will throw in an instance where it seems like, in her heart, she respects Hester. More accurately, I wouldn't call it conflicting motivations but yo-yo-ing motivations.
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Besides being independent, maybe Hester is a "late bloomer". Personally, I really had no interest in boys till I was around 18. Hester has had very little chance to meet young men that could appeal to her. I could see her being attracted by the lure of the forbidden - the mysterious Roland - as opposed to the total obvious Harry or even Edward.
It could be argued that both Hester and Edward are ‘noble’ hypocrites in the way they despise and decry the residents and life around the Vernonry and at the Grange. Despising society is all very well, but apart from living on a desert island, a society has to be lived in and somehow endured.Hester is still very young and could be excused more but Edward has spent years acting in a what could be called a fraudulent way towards Catherine. Yet he still takes her money with a (forced) smile.
Both of them could, if they wished, leave.
Hester could become a governess somewhere. Her mother would still be well looked after by Catherine and Hester herself could finally experience something of ‘real’ life. She would be sacrificing herself if she married Harry, but there is an essential selfishness in Hester that prevents her from doing that. Cementing herself within the Vernon clan does not seem to be on Hester’s agenda.
Edward, with his banking experience , could easily move to London and find a job in the financial sector. He would have to accept a lower position and less money, and have even less time to lie in the grass with his magnifying glass.
But they don’t leave. I wonder why? Could it be because they rather like the easy lives they have or more likely, lack the courage to strike out on their own.
Instead they sneer at the compliance of the rest of the family and pour scorn on Catherine’s manipulative treatment of her clan. However I haven’t yet seen a huge amount of manipulation, just minute observance. It is as if the Vernonry, the White House and surrounds are the stage set for Catherine’s ‘play of life’ to be acted out before her. Catherine has assembled the characters, but apart from a few stage directions the actors are left to themselves to provide the script.
Back to Hester and Edward. Hester obviously has deeper feelings of some sort for Edward. Despite his self indulgent tirade on the common, I still think she might run away with him if he asked her. But she is also intrigued with Roland, a man not of the Vernon clan and a possible source of danger. Hester might welcome a dangerous liaison if it meant a way out of the Vernonry and an escape from Catherine’s clutches.
’ "My old woman," he (Captain Morgan) said, "your Elinors and your Emilys are like a book to her. It is like reading a chapter at hazard out of a novel; but there is no end to the story and no beginning, and she is at this moment deep in her own—approaching the end of the third volume.""I should have said, to see Miss Vernon," said the stranger, who was more a voice than ever, now that the old man interrupted what little light there was, "that she was at the beginning of the first."
Was it the beginning of the first? Hester felt a wave of colour fly over her face, and thought in her heart that the new-comer was right. The initial chapter—surely this was true; not even a beginning, but something that went before any beginning.
"It never answers," said Captain Morgan, "to give an opinion without knowledge of the facts. You are a clever fellow, Roland, but not so clever as that comes to. You will find, Hester, that round every human creature you come across, there is some kind of a world hanging 'bound with gold chains about the feet of——' That is the most uncomfortable metaphor I know. I wonder what Mr. Tennyson could have been thinking of? Did he think that this round world was hanging on like a big ball, hampering the going of God, do you suppose? But there is something of that kind, true enough, with men." Chapter XVI Page 259.
Here is the Tennyson poem that the quote came from………
https://www.poetrynook.com/poem/and-s...
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Trev, I like your comment on Catherine watching the play of life. I belong to an in-person French reading group which is currently reading Swann in Love. Proust says the same thing, that for his semi-aristocratic characters, they find watching the lives of others to be like a novel or play.
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I think that to leave, in that time, would have been a much bigger event than today-it would be seen, particularly in Hester's case but also I suspect in Edwards-as abandoning your family and the good things they are providing to you. Edward might be looked at askance in a London bank-why would you leave your family Bank and your excellent position there, to start afresh somewhere else? Have you quarrelled with your family or done something worse might be the imputation, and Hester would be seen as an ungrateful and neglectful daughter and niece.
I wondered if Edward is trying some sort of takeover move-perhaps a 19th century Succession-type manoeuvre!
Thanks for the poem Trev, it’s not in my Tennyson anthology therefore much appreciated 🙏👍
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I think that to leave, in that time, would have been a much bigger event than today-it would be seen, particularly in Hester's case but als..."
Yes, society would judge them as rash and unreliable. It was about who you know and what your reputation was, even more than today. Ironically, if they had been poor, they would have nothing to lose and could move away or emigrate and start over.
I’m in the minority here, but I actually like and admire many things about Catherine. True, she can be short-sighted in her treatment of people socially, but much of the negativity about her comes from the “pensioners” who are, except for the Morgans,a mostly embittered group. I believe a Catherine and Hester are at odds because in they have similar personality traits of stubbornness and a need for independence. Oliphant’s male characters are delightfully complex. Edward is appealing in his private attentions to Hester, but he obviously covers up his real thoughts with Catherine, possibly to take advantage of her, and this section hints that he may have evil intentions. Harry is a good man, somewhat dull, but probably truthful in all that he would do for Hester and Mrs. John. Hester was probably right to refuse his proposal for now, but his stability may be important to her later. Captain Morgan, who certainly knows the truth about Hester’s father, is a loving man who has an inexplicable dislike of his own grandson. I suspect Hester and Roland will fall in love; we know nothing about him, but it’s obvious Hester is intrigued.
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When I read books set in England or the continent in the 1920's, and everyone is happy the war is over, I feel bad for them that they and their children will have to go through an even worse one.
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I felt the same way during the first few seasons of All Seasons Great and Small. I think the first season took place around 1937, and then at some point the war started and the characters were hoping/expecting it wouldn't last too long. Season 5 is up now, set in 1941, and it's sad knowing they still have four more years to go.
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I share your admiration of Catherine, but can't help feeling that she is unusually socially maladroit-her laughing at people is somewhat clear to many of them, and her misunderstanding of Edward and later Hester suggests some blinkers that surprise me about a woman who navigated her way through a man's world so successfully. She clearly has a good heart and is not a snob, and yet comes across as patronizing and controlling.
Frances wrote: "I share your admiration of Catherine, but can't help feeling that she is unusually socially maladroit-her laughing at people is somewhat clear to many of them, and her misunderstanding of Edward and later Hester suggests some blinkers that surprise me about a woman who navigated her way through a man's world so successfully..."And yet Catherine is actively protecting Hester from finding out the truth about her father. Hester might not believe it at first and could initially become even more resentful of Catherine if it were she who opened her eyes to the fact that her father was so selfish and uncaring.
Catherine knows about Hester’s resentment of her and that is why she tells Edward that she ‘dislikes’ her a little. But, as she does with the rest of her family, Catherine continues to protect Hester as best she can. Hester is approaching adulthood but both Catherine and her mother still see her as a child.
It might (eventually) change Hester’s mind about Catherine if she knew the real character of her father.
Neil wrote: "I thought Harry put his case over very eloquently. In fact I could’ve cried for him, poor devil! It usually bores me when I read of a man making a marriage proposal - but not this time...."I am so enjoying this novel and this discussion. This is my first Oliphant novel, although she has been on my list for years. Hester's future is so important to me. ..."not even a beginning, but something that went before any beginning."
The timeline is a bit vague, but it seems she was born 15 years after John Vernon escaped the mess he had made. Is there any mention of siblings? By the time she was born, her mother would have been about 35. All very mysterious.
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I could be misremembering, but I think at some point it was implied there had been miscarriages or previous children who died young.
What do you think is Edward's true character?
There was a conversation in the Vernonry between Catherine, Captain Morgan, and Mrs. Morgan in which Hester noticed odd pauses but Catherine did not. What was going on here?
What did Captain Morgan mean when he said "neither Catherine nor Hester" at the end of this section?