Dickensians! discussion

Nicholas Nickleby
This topic is about Nicholas Nickleby
41 views
Nicholas Nickleby - Group Read 6 > Nicholas Nickleby: Chapters 37 - 48

Comments Showing 151-200 of 221 (221 new)    post a comment »

message 151: by Katy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Katy | 286 comments Ralph Nickleby is a truly hateful person. He cannot be content that Nicholas is out of his life. He has to follow him and try to hurt him any way he can. Since Nicholas has relieved him of caring for his mother and Kate, he has tried get to him through Smike and now through Nicholas' employers. We cannot help but wonder what he will try next, and hope that he will be punished for his deeds in the end.


message 152: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Katy wrote: "To the "bad parent" discussion, I would add ... Snawley ..."

Perfect! Yes, thank you Katy 😊 👏


message 153: by Claudia (last edited Nov 21, 2024 11:52AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Katy wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "Bad Parenting

It occurs to me that Walter Bray is yet another example of bad parenting, which is a major theme in Nicholas Nickleby.

Initially Nicholas was inadv..."


Indeed Katy. I reread some passages in chapter 4 and particularly Snawley's conversation with Squeers and their allusions to rough conditions at Dotheboys. They "exchanged a very meaning smile".


message 154: by Sue (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sue | 1148 comments As for bad parenting, it would seem that most, if not all, of the parents who sent their boys to Dotheboy’s Hall qualify. And even if they don’t know immediately, their lack of checking on the children gives them away.

My favorite quotation is “There are many pleasant fictions of the law in constant operation, but there is not one so pleasant or practically humorous as that which supposes every man to be of equal value in its impartial eye, and the benefits of all laws to be equally attainable by all men, without the smallest reference to the furniture of their pockets.”


message 155: by Peter (new) - rated it 4 stars

Peter | 234 comments Katy wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "Bad Parenting

It occurs to me that Walter Bray is yet another example of bad parenting, which is a major theme in Nicholas Nickleby.

Initially Nicholas was inadv..."


Yes. As Jean shows bad parents are liberally scattered throughout the novel and Katy I agree that Snawley should be added to the list. To this point in the novel are there any good parents. In time, perhaps the Browdie’s, but not quite yet.

Now, would Dickens leave his readers without good role models at the end of the novel? In terms of balance and structure in the novel the good role models are yet to come. One of the great treats of the coming chapters will be to discover who gets paired off together.


message 156: by Katy (last edited Nov 21, 2024 07:06PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Katy | 286 comments Sue wrote: "As for bad parenting, it would seem that most, if not all, of the parents who sent their boys to Dotheboy’s Hall qualify. And even if they don’t know immediately, their lack of checking on the chil..."

Good point, Sue, about the parents who send their children to Dotheboy's Hall. They certainly do not seem too concerned about them.


message 157: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 09:04AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Indeed Sue (and others) I put "Smike and all the waifs and strays of Dotheboys Hall" at the top of the list in my post - but this does not really appropriately judge the parents who knowingly sent them there. So much misery, contained in such a small area.😡 As Katy also pointed out Snawley seem to positively want his stepsons to have a bad time, which is so extremely vindictive.

We know that in real life William Shaw advertised his Academy in glowing terms, but the very words "no holidays" and the cheap price should have rung warning bells to everybody who was considering it. Charles Dickens said he had heard of it even as child, so the Yorkshire boarding schools were already notorious as dumping grounds for unwanted or "inconvenient" children. There were doubtless many like Smike 🥹

I do like your quotation - another wise one 🤔

Peter - I too hope the Browdies will be good parents. John is surely levelheaded enough to curb his wife's tendency to be silly and self-centred. We can hope, anyway! But I do wish the Kenwigses would stop having children ...

Sara - I agree, we are certainly seeing that people are reaping what they sow! Plus I can think of a few other characters I wish that on, as well as hoping for Peter's happy marriages.


message 158: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 05:49AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "I felt like singing "Ding dong, the witch is dead, the wicked witch, the wicked witch is dead!" (The Wizard of Oz) when I read that Mr. Mantelini is hopefully finally done for! LOL

There is so much tension now, after so many days of light-heartedness!..."


I'm picking this up from a couple of days ago, (partly because it made me laugh!) as there is a definite feeling of closing, or rounding off some of these story threads, isn't there?

With such a discursive novel, and such a huge cast of characters, we might have expected that the author would just move on, but we know from his later works that Charles Dickens always satisfies us. He never leaves us wondering about the characters we care about - and gives us an appropriate ending for each of them too! So it's good to see signs of him doing that already. 😊

Yet although Charles Dickens seems to have begun what Americans call "wrapping it up", and we are 3 quarters of the way through (by length, though not quite chapters), he is still introducing new characters! 😲 And not just cameos, but important ones too! I don't know any other English author who does this, although I think Claudia said there was a French one who did.

And the last part of your post Shirley is so true of today's chapter - so much tension, after so many days of lightheartedness ...


message 159: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 08:05AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Chapter 47: Mr. Ralph Nickleby has some confidential Intercourse with another old Friend. They concert between them a Project, which promises well for both

Newman Noggs is grumbling that Ralph Nickleby is late back, because his dinner time is 2 pm and it is now nearly 3. He hasn’t eaten since 8 o’clock, and thinks that Ralph never seems to have an appetite for anything except money. Noggs has a few swigs from his flask of liquor and feels a bit better.

He decides to about to disobey orders to await Ralph’s return, and has got as far as the passage when he hears Ralph Nickleby’s key in the door Knowing that Ralph will demand that he stays until the visitor with him has left, Noggs hides in a closet in his room, intending to escape when Ralph is in his own room. He doesn’t answer when he is called. However Nogg’s plan does not work out, because Ralph says his room is cooler, and he and his visitor stay in there.



“The Consultation [between Arthur Gride and Ralph Nickleby]” - Hablot K. Browne (Phiz) - June 1839

His visitor is Arthur Gride, an old money lender who had mentored Ralph in the business:

“a little old man, of about seventy or seventy-five years of age, of a very lean figure, much bent and slightly twisted … His nose and chin were sharp and prominent, his jaws had fallen inwards from loss of teeth, his face was shrivelled and yellow … The whole air and attitude of the form was one of stealthy cat-like obsequiousness; the whole expression of the face was concentrated in a wrinkled leer, compounded of cunning, lecherousness, slyness, and avarice.”

The narrator comments that both he and Ralph Nickleby belong to the same class of “covetous and griping penury”.

Ralph asks what Arthur wants from him, knowing that he would not be there if there wasn’t something.

“‘He suspects even me!’ cried old Arthur, holding up his hands. ‘Even me! … Ha, ha, ha! … There’s nobody like him. A giant among pigmies, a giant, a giant!”



“Arthur Gride and Ralph Nickleby” - Harry Furniss - 1910

Arthur Gride tells Ralph that he is going to get married. Ralph cannot believe this, and says it must be to some old hag, but Gride insists he is serious. He is going to marry a beautiful girl, not yet nineteen, and called Madeline Bray. He goes into raptures about the young woman, while Ralph watches coldly, with a curled lip.

Ralph pretends to be pondering over the name, which the narrator says is a careful ploy to extract more information. Arthur Gride has no suspicions and thinks that his good friend is in earnest. After joking again about Ralph’s manner, he gets down to business.

Madeline Bray is a slave to her father’s every whim. The father loves her as much as he is capable, but loves himself a great deal more. And thirdly Arthur Gride really does hanker after having this lovely delicate creature as his wife:

“To this Ralph deigned no other rejoinder than a harsh smile, and a glance at the shrivelled old creature before him, which were, however, sufficiently expressive.”

Arthur Gride now explains his plan. Walter Bray is in debt to him for £1700. Ralph Nickleby examines his pocket-book and comments that Bray also owes him £975 4s. 3d. Gride agrees eagerly, saying that they are the only two creditors, as nobody else would take the risk. His plan is to release Walter Bray from this debt, in exchange for his daughter’s hand. He thinks Bray will agree, since it will enable him to live in France like a gentleman. Gride knows he can’t live long, because he has asked his doctor, who has said it is a heart condition.



“Introducing Arthur Gride” - Charles Stanley Reinhart - 1875

Ralph wants him to go on, and Arthur Gride says he want to buy Bray’s debt from him, and offers him 5 shillings in the pound, or 6s 8d - or even as much as 10/- he says - since they have always been on such good terms. Ralph remains “as stony and immovable as ever”, saying that there must something else. Arthur Gride finally adds as if it is an afterthought, that his daughter is heir to a property which nobody knows about - stressing that it is a “very little” property.

Ralph sits in silence, thinking about this for 3 or 4 minutes. Finally he demands that the father’s debt be paid to him in full. He also wants an additional £500 for helping him. He insists on a bond promising payment “before noon of the day of your marriage with Madeline Bray”. Arthur Gride tries to compromise, but Ralph Nickleby will not move an inch, and busies himself with some other papers. Gride consents with a heavy heart, although the narrator tells us that he had prepared himself for this reaction before he came. The two men leave the room.

After overhearing this, Newman emerges, and says to himself that he has lost his appetite. He does not know who the young lady is, but he pities her with all his heart.

Meanwhile, both men have gone to the place where the Brays live, which as the narrator says, is the same house where Nicholas had been only a few mornings before. Ralph explains the plans for the marriage. Mr Bray haughtily say that his daughter is not to be bought, but Ralph cannily adds:

“There is no obligation on either side. You have money, and Miss Madeline has beauty and worth. She has youth, you have money. She has not money, you have not youth. Tit for tat,”

Walter Bray says that it is for his daughter to decide, but Ralph points out that he can advise her. The narrator tells us that Bray is “proud and mean by turns, and selfish at all times”.

Ralph Nickleby, the “wily usurer” paints a picture of Bray’s life abroad, if he accepts. He will be in his element once more, and have a new lease of life, whereas here, all that lies in wait for him is a churchyard and a gravestone.

More quietly, so that he is not overheard, Ralph points out that Arthur Gride is old and will die. His fortune will allow Mr. Bray to pursue his former lifestyle, and would leave his daughter wealthy. Better that, than it be left to the friends of his former wife - his enemies - to make her happy.

Mr Bray starts up, having heard Madeline at the door:

“There was a gleam of conscience in the shame and terror of this hasty action, which, in one short moment, tore the thin covering of sophistry from the cruel design, and laid it bare in all its meanness and heartless deformity.”

All 3 men react as if they are cowed, and when Madeline enters she is shocked and worried. Ralph says her father has had a sudden spasm, but is now quite well. Although Madeline is very concerned about him, her father agrees, saying:

“This wretched life, my love, of daily labour and fatigue, is more than you can bear, I am sure it is. Poor Madeline!”

Ralph watches sharply. Bray tells them to call in a week, saying that if he owed them money, that was not Mr Gride’s fault. Arthur Gride wants to kiss Madeline’s fingers, whereupon:

“Madeline shrunk involuntarily from the goblin figure, but she placed the tips of her fingers in his hand and instantly withdrew them”

so that Gride ends up kissing his own, and hobbles out of the room, after Ralph, wanting to know:

“What does the giant say to the pigmy?”

Ralph is contemptuous, and sneers about Bray sympathising with his daughter for doing too much and taxing her strength. Did Gride ever think he had been so concerned about her before?

“I am sure it’s done …He is trying to deceive himself, even before our eyes, already. He is making believe that he thinks of her good and not his own.”

They can be confident about their next meeting with Mr. Bray.


message 160: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 08:15AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
And a little more …

Pocket Pistol - I doubted very much whether Newman Noggs would have a firing pistol in his pocket, even though it is referred to as “smoking” at one point. 😆 I wondered if it was a commercial name for something, so looked it up in my The Penguin Dictionary Of Historical Slang by Eric Partridge:

Apparently in the Diary of a Country Parson, 1758-1802 by James Woodforde, the entry for 29th June 1763 says: “For a Pocket Pistol alias a dram bottle to carry in one’s pocket, it being necessary on a journey or so, at Nicholls pd 0.1.0 [paid 1 shilling or 1/-]”

so I translated it as a "flask of liquor" (most probably whisky).

This makes a lot of sense, since we know by his red “beacon of a nose” that Noggs is over-fond of a tipple, and a “journey” for Victorians can just refer to one day e.g. a “journeyman” is a temporary worker, often just employed a day at a time. A "journeyman parson" was one not attached to a certain parish, but one who moved around.

So evidently if one owned a Pocket Pistol, one would never be without it.


message 161: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 08:16AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Arthur Gride sourly refers to an old proverb:
“It is ill jesting with edged tools”

Good pair for a curricle
Since a curricle is a two wheeled carriage, a “good pair” would mean two horses riding abreast, who worked well together, to pull it.


message 162: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 08:16AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Writing

Just a couple of notes …

We knew something portentous was about to happen by the very first sentence, with the chimes of a clock, didn’t we? If Newman Noggs is paying especial attention to the time, then so should we!

When Ralph says: “‘Go on with your scheme … It’s of no use raising the cry of our trade just now; there’s nobody to hear us!’”

I thought that was a clever way of reminding us that Noggs is listening inside the cupboard.


message 163: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 08:23AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Well yesterday seemed like a fairtytale, and this even more so! To add to our fairy, our ogre and our handsome brave prince, Charles Dickens himself now gives us two more roles - by name! But who is worse: the giant or the goblin/pigmy? The descriptions of Arthur Gride were some of the most grotesque I have ever read, and made me shudder to read them. But then Ralph is a master of scheming, and so full of resentment with it that as Katy said, he is “truly hateful”.

I'm full of trepidation now. How can anything stop these two diabolical schemers? They seem to hold all the cards! 😨

Since I chose two favourite quotations yesterday, I’ll leave identifying memorable quotations to others, and look forward to reactions to this terrifying - yet grotesquely comic - chapter.


message 164: by Claudia (last edited Nov 22, 2024 12:09PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments A great summary of a amazing chapter, Jean!

Enters yet a new protagonist, with a terrible scheme as far as Madeline is concerned. All the while, Newman Noggs is hidden in his closet and listening and emptying his flask of alcohol, as he has missed his lunch...

Right now I don't think of any French writer who introduced new significant characters late into the novel- perhaps The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas, who has a plethora of characters turning up in the course of the novel. Some of them are not quite main characters but instrumental in the Count's scheme.

I mentioned most probably Thomas Mann in The Magic Mountain written between 1912 and 1924, with a break during World War I, considered one of the first modern novels of the 20th century. He indeed introduced two significant protagonists halfway and in the last third of the novel. We see the same "technique" in Buddenbrooks, published in 1902, and written in the last years of the 19th century with an abundance of characters, but the story unfolds over three generations, so that it is completely different.


message 165: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 194 comments Dickens has populated this novel with such a collection of characters who are treacherous, avaricious or foolish, it's a great relief to be presented with persons such as the Cheerybles, who are not only kind and generous but also blessed with common sense and firm convictions about right and wrong. Thus, my favorite quotation from this chapter is Charles's opinion about Smike and his (supposed) father: If Nature, in such a case, put into that lad's breast one secret prompting which urged him toward his father and away from you, she would be a liar and an idiot.


message 166: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 11:58AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Claudia wrote: "A great summary of a amazing chapter, Jean!

Enters yet a new protagonist, with a terrible scheme ..."


Thank you so much Claudia! It is a humdinger of a chapter, isn't it (I have a feeling that might be a peculiarly English idiom 😆) And those comparisons are great! You are educating me about European literature for sure 😊


message 167: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 22, 2024 12:16PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Jim wrote: "Dickens has populated this novel with such a collection of characters who are treacherous, avaricious or foolish, it's a great relief to be presented with persons such as the Cheerybles ..."

Oh it is indeed, and yet they are refreshingly clearsighted too, and give sage advice, which the hot-tempered Nicholas badly needs.

I really like the quotation you selected, Jim 😊


Lori  Keeton | 1096 comments Just the thoughts of this scheme actually coming true give me the creeps! Oh my please no for sweet Madeleine’s sake! This scene with three villains ( each in their own way) shows exactly what matters to them - money. No one considers how the girl would feel in a situation like this. She will do as she is bid by her father despite him saying it is her decision. I do hope Dickens has a way out for this poor girl.

My favorite quote is from Noggs after his emergence from the closet after listening in
’I have no appetite now,’ said Newman, putting the flask in his pocket. ‘I’ve had my dinner.’


Kathleen | 491 comments I have caught up after a few days, and have so appreciated your excellent summaries and additions, Jean!

But I'm with Lori on this chapter--definitely creeped out by this scheming around poor Madeleine. Gride is truly an ogre, and with the villain Ralph is, I'm not sure which is worse. In the same way, all of these examples of bad parenting, I'm not sure which of these are worse either. We have so many young people to worry about. 😢


message 170: by Sue (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sue | 1148 comments I’m rather hoping that Mr Bray succumbs to his miserable heart which apparently has been bothering him more in recent days. Perhaps he could exit before the week is passed! I wonder if Mr. Bray might hint at what is planned to Madeline during that time. If he did, would she be able to keep it secret from Nicholas or the Cheerybles?


Claudia | 935 comments In this chapter, the forces of evil seem to have gained more power than the forces of good. Right now, I cannot imagine how they could be defeated. Interestingly many villains appear to want to hide subsequently in France - Sir Mulberry Hawk is already there.


message 172: by Peter (new) - rated it 4 stars

Peter | 234 comments Lori wrote: "Just the thoughts of this scheme actually coming true give me the creeps! Oh my please no for sweet Madeleine’s sake! This scene with three villains ( each in their own way) shows exactly what matt..."

Hi Lori

I too really like Newman’s comment that ´I have no appetite now …´I’ve had my dinner.´ I wonder how many levels we can see in that comment. Is the reference simply to drinking the flask? Does the word appetite mean that what Newman has just heard and witnessed has sickened his stomach and his morals? Could it even suggest that of all the abuse and disrespect that Ralph Nickleby has forced Newman to accept (stomach) what has just happened is simply too much for Newman to accept from his employer?

However one interprets Newman’s comment the reader has just witnessed a horrid display of callous capitalism from Ralph Nickleby, Gride and Bray. Madeline is treated like a commodity, an inanimate object to be bartered.

I think this chapter and this action by Ralph Nickleby is worse than the way Ralph treated Kate with Hawk. I can’t think of a character in any Dickens novel up to this one that portrays a more odious human being.


message 173: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1532 comments Just when you think there might be a limit to how low these men can go, they sink a little further. Poor Madeleine's love and care is very poorly rewarded. The others are scum, but I fault her father the most, because he owes her the most.


message 174: by Katy (last edited Nov 23, 2024 06:34AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Katy | 286 comments It is interesting that Ralph Nickleby has found another way to get at Nicholas, this time without even realizing it. I am sure this will bring about another confrontation between them.


message 175: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 23, 2024 08:23AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
I think we are all filled with repugnance for these three men, who all completely ignore the sacrifice of innocence that must be made.

Interestingly their motives are all different: either lust, avarice, or selfishly capturing a lost dissolute youth, but all are joined in planning a despicable act.


message 176: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 23, 2024 08:32AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Chapter 48: Being for the Benefit of Mr. Vincent Crummles, and positively his last Appearance on this Stage

Nicholas is depressed as he returns to the office. His pleasant dreams of Madeline have been dashed by the harsh reality of her position. He had been attracted to her beauty before; now though, her noble nature and difficult life have increased his admiration of her. He considers that his duty forbids him to act on it, but he enjoys his secret feelings, which he feels cannot harm anyone. Nicholas feels quite heroic by behaving in this way.

He is so lacking in concentration at the office, that Tim Linkinwater becomes quite concerned. Thinking Nicholas must be preoccupied by a mistake and does not want to admit to it for fear of spoiling Tim’s perfect books, he advises the younger man to make a clean breast of it “rather than have his whole life embittered by the tortures of remorse”.

Listlessly wandering the streets, Nicholas happens to cast his eyes over a playbill, and suddenly becomes aware of what he is reading. It is an announcement for the last performance of Vincent Crummles and his family! At first he doubts that it can be the same “Mr. Vincent Crummles of Provincial Celebrity” in London, but then decides there can only be one Vincent Crummles with the two sons and an ”infant phenomenon“ as advertised. There was also to be ”the unrivalled African Knife-swallower”, and Mr. Snittle Timberry.

Nicholas presents himself at the stage-door, having written his pseudonym on a bit of paper and sent it in beforehand.



“Reverting to Vincent Crummles Co.” - Fred Barnard - 1875

“He was presently conducted by a robber, with a very large belt and buckle round his waist, and very large leather gauntlets on his hands, into the presence of the former manager”.




“Mr. Crummles prepares for his Last Appearance” - Harry Furniss - 1910

Mr. Crummles is delighted to see him, and tells Nicholas that it truly is their last performance and not a ploy to draw in audiences. He shows Nicholas some of the complimentary notices that have been written in the newspapers (innocently insisting that he does not know how some of them got there). Now that Mrs. Crummles is expecting again, they have decided to go to America. He hopes their new child will be gifted in tragedy—which is sought after in America:

“However, we must take it as it comes. Perhaps it may have a genius for the tight-rope. It may have any sort of genius, in short, if it takes after its mother, Johnson, for she is an universal genius; but, whatever its genius is, that genius shall be developed.”

Mr Crummles says that they already have an engagement over in America, and hope to settle down and buy some land for their retirement. He then tells Nicholas the rest of the news about the company. Miss Snevellicci married a wax chandler who used to supply their theatre. Mrs. Lillyvick has proved to be a tyrannical wife. Nicholas responds in kind, and tells Mr. Crummles all about the circumstances which had led up to their first meeting, now feeling able to reveal his true name and recounting his recent good fortune and prospects.

Mr. Crummles is very happy for him, and invites Nicholas to dinner, since the next morning they will start for Liverpool, and then set sail for America. He has always been a great favourite of Mrs Crummles, he says, and if he would like to bid farewell to her, this will be his only chance. There is to be:

“a farewell supper, given in honour of the family at a neighbouring tavern; at which Mr. Snittle Timberry would preside, while the honours of the vice-chair would be sustained by the African Swallower.”

Nicholas takes the opportunity to buy the best silver snuffbox he can afford for Mr Crummles, and carefully chooses gifts for each of the family. When he arrives he is introduced to the African Swallower (who sounds remarkably like an Irishman) and Mr. Snittle Timberry, who makes a point of being martyrish after his recent illness. The narrator comments:

“It is observable that when people upon the stage are in any strait involving the very last extremity of weakness and exhaustion, they invariably perform feats of strength requiring great ingenuity and muscular power”

and drily adds that this kind performance comes so naturally to Mr. Snittle Timberry, that he deliberately performs some gymnastic feats to test his recovery, to great acclaim, on the way to the tavern.

Mrs. Crummles is delighted to see Nicholas and asks after his friend, Mr Digby. It takes a moment for Nicholas to remember the pseudonym of Smike, but then automatically begins to say he is well - and corrects himself - and says ironically that he would be even more suitable for the roles they chose than before. Mrs Crummles recoils in a tragic manner, whereupon Nicholas says that:

“a dastardly enemy of mine has struck at me through him, and that while he thinks to torture me, he inflicts on him such agonies of terror and suspense as …”

and then catches himself, apologising for talking of his personal problems, which he only usually shares with those who know the circumstances well. However, Mrs Crummles appears to forget what he has said quite quickly.

Various theatrical people cluster round Mr. Snittle Timberry, including:

“a literary gentleman … who had dramatised in his time two hundred and forty-seven novels as fast as they had come out—some of them faster than they had come out—and who was a literary gentleman in consequence.”

The African Swallower is his friend, and he gives a eulogy about the literary gentleman, to which Nicholas responds politely. The gentleman says that he is famous because he dramatises books. Nicholas affects surprise on hearing that the author is more famous than the characters he writes about, such as Dick Turpin, but the gentleman will not express an opinion.

“‘Shakespeare dramatised stories which had previously appeared in print, it is true,’ observed Nicholas.
‘Meaning Bill, sir?’ said the literary gentleman. ‘So he did. Bill was an adapter, certainly, so he was—and very well he adapted too—considering.’“


Nicholas then begins to condemn some of those who make poor adaptations to the stage of books not suited for it, and angrily continues. He criticises those who take work which authors have finely crafted, poring over it for many hours, and they crudely hack it about, producing shoddy versions of their own, and even have the gall to write their own endings of works which the author has not yet finished. Then they add their own name to the garbled mess. Why, it is no better, Nicholas claims furiously, than picking a man’s pockets.

The literary gentleman shrugs and Nicholas is set to continue, but before it can become any more violent, Mrs Crummles intercedes, asking about his six new plots, which the literary gentleman is happy to talk of.

There follow many speeches and toasts. When it comes to the turn for the literary gentleman’s health to be drunk, it was discovered that:

“he had been drunk for some time in another acceptation of the term, and was then asleep on the stairs”,

so this toast is abandoned, and they toast the ladies instead. Everyone begins to leave, but Nicholas waits behind to give the family their presents, and then bids them goodbye.

“When he … came to Mr. Crummles, he could not but mark the difference between their present separation and their parting at Portsmouth. Not a jot of his theatrical manner remained; he put out his hand with an air which, if he could have summoned it at will, would have made him the best actor of his day in homely parts.

Moreover Mr Crummles seems genuinely overcome. Nicholas shakes his hand with the warmth he honestly feels, when suddenly Mrs Grudden appears, and flings her arms round him. She is emigrating with the Crummles family too!

“Nicholas submitted to another hug with even a better grace than before, if that were possible, and waving his hat as cheerfully as he could, took farewell of the Vincent Crummleses.”


message 177: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 23, 2024 08:33AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
This is the end of Installment 15. Installment 16 begins with chapter 49, in a new thread, on Monday


message 178: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 23, 2024 08:58AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
And a little more …

Literary Plagiarism

Charles Dickens’s “Nickleby Proclamation” (which I posted at the start of our read), was intended to deter any would-be plagiarists in the absence of any effective copyright laws, but it did not seem to have any effect whatsoever. Basic copyright legislation existed in Britain at this time, but not at all in any other countries. Even in Britain, all plagiarists had to do was to alter the names slightly, and they would be free from prosecution. 😡

One notorious one styled himself “Bos”, and had already produced 112 installments of “The Posthumourous Notes of the Pickwick Club”, and a serial called “Oliver Twiss”. Now he was back, with a new novel called “Nickelas Nickelbery”.

According to H. Philip Bolton in Dickens Dramatized, as well as these serials and books plagiarised from Charles Dickens, at least 25 stage versions were produced while Nicholas Nickleby was still being published in installments.

We know about the first stage version by Edward Stirling, at the Adelphi on 19th November 1838, and know how much Charles Dickens enjoyed this one. There was just one exception noted … “some rubbish regarding the robins in the fields, put into Smike’s mouth” by the dramatist, of which Charles Dickens wrote “”Damn the robins - cut them out!” (Pilgrim Letters). However, later versions did not meet with his approval, and we can see from Nicholas’s tirade of a speech just how much Charles Dickens resented them.

The worst was by a hack dramatist, William Thomas Moncrieff in May 1839, just a month before this installment.

Here is wiki on William Thomas Moncrieff - there are no spoilers here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William...

It is William Thomas Moncrieff whom Charles Dickens is directly attacking here, with Nicholas’s tirade. Moncrieff’s new play was called “Nicholas Nickleby and Poor Smike, or, the Victim of the Yorkshire School” and performed at the Strand theatre on 20th May 1839. It included a number of songs and a more than usually absurd denouement. Charles Dickens was furious, as we can tell from ch 48, and William Thomas Moncrieff knew full well that it was a portrait of him ...

So William Thomas Moncrieff immediately responded with a counter-offensive, accusing Charles Dickens himself of plagiarism (!) and of “allowing his irritability to forget the good breeding of a gentleman” (quoted by Michael Slater in his biography; the full text of William Thomas Moncrieff’s letter can be read in Dickens and the Drama by S. J.Adair Fitz-Gerald).

The jibe about a “gentleman” would have particularly needled Charles Dickens - just as it would have irritated Nicholas - as he was thought by some critics to be too much of a dandy, and not quite a gentleman. But what probably incensed him most was that William Thomas Moncrieff provided his own ending. And either by happenstance or intuition, William Thomas Moncrieff disclosed a crucial plot element which Charles Dickens did not actually reveal in his serial until very near the end. (I’ll tell you when we get there!)

However, what all the rogue publications and dramatisations do prove to us, 185 years later, is just how completely Charles Dickens must have achieved his initial aim, stated in his “Nickleby Proclamation” to “entertain and amuse”.


message 179: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 23, 2024 09:04AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
I liked the close observation here, when the narrator says, (ostensibly about Nicholas, but surely true of us all - and of the author)

“In this pensive, wayward, and uncertain state, people are apt to lounge and loiter without knowing why, to read placards on the walls with great attention and without the smallest idea of one word of their contents, and to stare most earnestly through shop-windows at things which they don’t see.”

And there were lots of clever bits of writing to chuckle over, such as the characters in books Nicholas mentioned: Richard Turpin, Tom King and Jerry Abershaw, who were all famous highwaymen - so of course Nicholas was making a point about literary highwaymen!

But my favourite quotation is about the:

“literary gentleman present who had dramatised in his time two hundred and forty-seven novels as fast as they had come out—some of them faster than they had come out—and who was a literary gentleman in consequence.”

I also like his diatribe about plagiarists, which I’ll put under a spoiler to save space:

(view spoiler)


message 180: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 23, 2024 09:08AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
I really enjoyed discovering what has happened to the theatre troupe … some of them emigrating to the USA, with a new Crummles on the way, who will now be American, Miss Snevellicci not dying of passion for Nicholas after all, but marrying a wax chandler, and Henrietta Petowker lording it over the former stuffed-shirt, Mr Lillivick. I loved the drama and larger-than-life theatre of it all, and the way that in the end, we just see the honest emotions of Vincent Crummles. I’m also pleased that Nicholas no longer has to go by the pseudonym of Johnson among his friends there, as I didn’t feel that he would be happy with any such deception for long.

All in all, I really enjoyed this chapter, and am pleased that Charles Dickens felt he could let off steam a bit about the plagiarism issue, which was plaguing him right then.

We still have poor Madeline’s fate hanging over us though; a perfect cliff-hanger to hold his original readers for a whole month! Not to mention worrying over all the other characters we care about. Meanwhile there are lots of extra posts from this (or previous) installments to catch up on, if you missed any. And I look forward to seeing everyone in our new thread, on Monday.


message 181: by Connie (last edited Nov 23, 2024 11:06AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Connie  G (connie_g) | 1031 comments Dickens seems to be finishing off the part of the book that involves the Crummles by sending them off to America where Nicholas cannot encounter them again. It does give the Crummles more options since they will be having a child born in America who will be a citizen. Mr Crummle seemed to be genuinely warm to Nicholas, and didn't act like he was putting on a show as he did during their last farewell. It's pleasant that Dickens is giving them a happy ending considering all the abusive behavior from other characters in the story. Dickens is talented in balancing the happy events with the tragic ones.


message 182: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1532 comments One of the things I love most about Dickens is that he NEVER just leaves a character hanging out there in space. He puts a kind of finish to even the smaller ones. I hope the new baby takes a little of the pressure off of the Phenomenon.

It is hard to fathom the degree of plagiarism that was tolerated (and even encouraged) at this time. No wonder Dickens wanted to go off about it! I did love the distinction he drew between what these men were doing and what Shakespeare had done. I'm betting this "Shakespeare did it too" excuse was commonly thrown at him.


message 183: by Peter (new) - rated it 4 stars

Peter | 234 comments Yes. The hoards who plagiarized must have driven Dickens to great fits of anger. Who can blame him? Just imagine seeing your own work dramatized and different endings presented, different characters introduced, and your plot liberally torn apart in places.

I wonder, however, if all the various adaptations of Dickens’s work did not somehow bring the benefit of vastly expanding Dickens’s own name to even more people. No doubt many people found cheaper alternatives to a Dickens novel or ‘authorized’ play but still Dickens’s fame and notoriety would have expanded. Perhaps a bad analogy here, but ultimately bootlegged CD’s, tapes, and videos did expand the universe of the original artists.

Farewell to the Crummles. I liked how Dickens gave the family a proper send off. The Crummles helped Nicholas and Smike as well as entertained us readers. They deserved their send off to a new world and new audiences. Could this bit of tidying up the plot be a positive harbinger that more good news is on the horizon for the ‘good’ characters of the novel?


Bridget | 1008 comments Dickens rant about plagiarism is well deserved. How maddening that must have been for authors. I particularly liked his comparison of picking men’s pockets to picking men’s brains.

I felt very fidgety reading this chapter because I’m itching to know Madeline’s fate. I can’t imagine waiting a whole month to find out.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 485 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "The worst was by a hack dramatist, William Thomas Moncrieff in May 1839, just a month before this installment."

I am shocked that this notorious plagiarizer has recognized works on Goodreads! Is he still read today then?! Wouldn't Dickens roll over in his grave!

As so many have pointed out, I'm so glad that Dickens gave the Crummles a great sendoff and that Nicholas got to see them one more time. Such a nice closure.

We may have talked about this in other long reads, but I don't remember it if we have. Dickens did use his awareness of the world beyond his sphere, his great talent, and his subsequent fame to better the lives of orphans and destitute children. But I'm also wondering if Dickens didn't also try to do the same thing for defenseless women trapped by their circumstances (Katy and Madeline in Nicholas Nickleby and Nancy in Oliver Twist for example). This would be in keeping with Dickens' Christian faith, where Christians are admonished to "look after orphans and widows in their distress." I wonder if he was as successful in advancing the cause for women as he did for children.

As you pointed out, Jean, I think we are all filled with repugnance for these three men, who all completely ignore the sacrifice of innocence that must be made. Interestingly their motives are all different: either lust, avarice, or selfishly capturing a lost dissolute youth, but all are joined in planning a despicable act.. By making these three characters so vile, readers could not but ponder the plight of innocent women like Madeline! I think that was Dickens' deliberate but subtle call for action in society.


message 186: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 24, 2024 02:46AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "But I'm also wondering if Dickens didn't also try to do the same thing for defenseless women trapped by their circumstances..."

He did indeed Shirley, beginning just 7 years later. I'll write a separate post (so everyone can decide whether to read it or just skip through 😊)


message 187: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 24, 2024 02:48AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Urania Cottage

Eight years after Nicholas Nickleby was published, Charles Dickens established Urania Cottage: a home for "fallen women", with help from his friend and philanthropist Angela Burdett-Coutts. The idea began in 1846, when Charles Dickens sent her a fourteen-page letter about his plan for setting up a safe house for women and girls working the London streets as prostitutes. His idea was to begin with about thirty women:

"What they would be taught in the house, would be grounded in religion ... a system of training established, which, while it is steady and firm, is cheerful and hopeful. Order, punctuality, cleanliness, the whole routine of household duties - as washing, mending, cooking - the establishment itself would supply the means of teaching practically, to every one. But the ... monotonous round of occupation and self-denial ... would end ... in happy homes of their own."

A property was found and a matron was appointed, and in October 1847, Charles Dickens published a leaflet which he handed out to prostitutes encouraging them to apply to join Urania Cottage. Charles Dickens used to trawl the streets looking for women to enter Urania Cottage, and wrote about his "nightly wanderings into strange places". He interviewed every single one who responded to the leaflet, and if accepted she would be told that no one would ever mention her past to her.

They started with four, quickly rising to eight, again in Charles Dickens's own words:

"Among the girls were starving needlewomen, poor needlewomen who had robbed... violent girls imprisoned for committing disturbances in ill-conducted workhouses, poor girls from Ragged Schools, destitute girls who have applied at police offices for relief, young women from the streets - young women of the same class taken from the prisons after under-going punishment there as disorderly characters, or for shoplifting, or for thefts from the person: domestic servants who had been seduced, and two young women held to bail for attempting suicide."

Charles Dickens wanted them to wear bright colours, be well fed, and taught reading, writing, sewing, domestic work, cooking and laundering. His plan was that each of them would live at the cottage for about a year, and then be placed on an emigrant ship, by which time they would be much improved and able to manage their lives. The first three went, but after the six month voyage they disappeared.

In February 1849, a young woman called Isabella Gordon arrived at Urania Cottage. Charles Dickens was very taken with her high spirits. She had a spark and vivacity, and was not at all intimidated by him. He enjoyed her company and wrote about my "friend Isabella Gordon".

However eventually Isabella went too far with her rebellious streak, and was sent away. Charles Dickens recalls:

"The girl herself, now that it had really come to this, cried, and hung down her head, and when she got out at the door, stopped and leaned against the house for a minute or two before she went to the gate - in a most miserable and wretched state. As it was impossible to relent, with any hope of doing good, we could not do so. We passed her in the lane, afterwards, going slowly away, and wiping her face with her shawl. A more forlorn and hopeless thing altogether, I never saw."

The most likely thing was that Isabella Gordon would return to a world of prostitution. Just a few days later Charles Dickens was to incorporate her character into the novel he was then writing: that month's episode of David Copperfield, (view spoiler)

So not all the young women he chose were success stories, but some were. And as you have deduced Shirley, Charles Dickens was keen to alert readers to the plight of these women, and any who were in danger of succumbing to such a life.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 485 comments Oh, Jean, thank you for your post! It literally made me cry to read what Charles Dickens wrote about what he was trying to do for these girls and women and how he went about it. I was so moved with his desire for them to wear bright clothes, because he truly understood how one looks on the outside can change the person inside. I am so amazed at his compassion... I would love to read more about this side of him. Again, Jean, thank you so much for all the time you spend helping us to know Dickens better!


Kathleen | 491 comments Bridget wrote: "I felt very fidgety reading this chapter because I’m itching to know Madeline’s fate. I can’t imagine waiting a whole month to find out."

This was how I felt too. As well as Madeleine, I'm quite worried about Smike. I even wondered if he would be sent to America with the Crummles' to escape!

Ditto what Shirley said, Jean, "thank you so much for all the time you spend helping us to know Dickens better!" So many juicy tidbits of info you have given us!


message 190: by Sara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sara (phantomswife) | 1532 comments How difficult it must have been for Charles Dickens to send Isabella away after having made such an effort to save her. It wrenches the heart to read his words. What a good man. The things he did in his life are what made his writing so touching and realistic. No matter how outrageous a character he creates is, we always feel he must have known someone just like them.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 485 comments I agree with everything you said, Sara. And how hard it must have been for him to lose even one of the women he wanted so desperately to help! Poor Isabella... and how it must have hurt him to watch her go like that. You're right... he was such a good man!


message 192: by Peter (new) - rated it 4 stars

Peter | 234 comments For a detailed study of Urania Cottage an excellent book to read is Jenny Hartley’s Charles Dickens and the House of Fallen Women.


message 193: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 24, 2024 07:05AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
Thanks for this Peter! I think it's actually on my kindle ... I just never get the time to read it 😆 Maybe this Christmas? It's good to know it is a worthwhile read, and would probably make a great side read for us. (I'm probably a bit over-cautious now, after the dire Dickens and the Workhouse: Oliver Twist and the London Poor.) Edit: I've just looked and it isn't on kindle so I must have just looked hopefully a few times.

Kathleen - "I'm quite worried about Smike. I even wondered if he would be sent to America with the Crummles' to escape!" - What a great solution that would have been! 👏

I'm glad the posts are useful, and thanks for your appreciation, everyone. My extra posts can always be skipped if it's familiar fare 😊

When Shirley brought the subject up, I realised that we have had several young women in a dangerous situation like Madeline's - such as Kate - who might well be in a similar position if not for her brother.

A life on the streets or in the workhouse was never very far away.


message 194: by Claudia (last edited Nov 24, 2024 05:44AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Claudia | 935 comments Thank you Jean for these rich posts (summary and background info)!

I saw you have already quoted Mr Crummles' genial repartee on the expected Crummles offspring, also my favourite, which mirrors an undeniable optimism and a healthy philosophy of life:

"However, we must take it as it comes. Perhaps it may have a genius for the tight-rope. It may have any sort of genius, in short, if it takes after its mother, Johnson, for she is an universal genius; but, whatever its genius is, that genius shall be developed."


message 195: by Chris (new) - rated it 4 stars

Chris | 194 comments I was appalled at the scheming of Gride (what an odious creature) and Ralph and was surprised that Madeline's father didn't jump at the offer. Maybe he has gotten too used to the care and ministrations of Madeline and understands he can't just head off to France despite the money due to his ill-health.?
I felt a little discombobulated when I started Chap 48 after such a tense chap 47, but I suppose it is one of the beauties of Dickens' writing. Relieve the tension with a more lighthearted scene. I personally felt as I closed the chapter that it was more filler than anything else.


message 196: by Sue (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sue | 1148 comments I thought Gride is one of the most alarmingly described of the Dickens characters I’ve experienced so far in half a dozen or more novels. It was painful to read those words.


Claudia | 935 comments I agree with Chris and Sue and all!

Gride is awful. Alone his name suggests "greed"!


message 198: by Katy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Katy | 286 comments Chris wrote: "I was appalled at the scheming of Gride (what an odious creature) and Ralph and was surprised that Madeline's father didn't jump at the offer. Maybe he has gotten too used to the care and ministrat..."

Madeline's father may not have immediately jumped at the offer, but it did not take much persuasion to get him to agree to the plan. Ralph Nickleby and Gride had him figured out pretty well.


message 199: by Kelly (new) - added it

Kelly (sunny_reader_girl) | 88 comments Hello! I am caught up reading through Chapter 48 :-) and look forward to reading Chapter 49 later on today. I've missed these conversations; it's been a hectic time in my life the past week!

I hope everyone is doing well. Catching up on about 4 chapters yesterday was very soothing for me.


message 200: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Nov 25, 2024 10:12AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8400 comments Mod
YAY - Good to see you back Kelly - well done!

I've really enjoyed these latest few comments ...

Claudia - "greedy" is indeed apt for Gride, and a peculiar thought I always have is that it sounds a bit like "bride", of which lustful thoughts fill his mind right now.

The next thread is open and ready for comments! We have a complete change of mood with today's chapter LINK HERE.

And I look forward to a few others catching up here too 😊


back to top