What are we reading? 9/09/2024

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "In my opinion it was a distinctly cowardly despicable act to put explosives in people’s pagers. The Israelis may be at war with Hezbollah but this is a true low..."

its a dirty, low down conflict sadly. Hamas knew what Oct 7th would unleash, thats the cynicism i find astonishing. We all know how ruthless and violent the IDF can be, Hamas invited the destruction of Gaza and probably care little for what has happened, beyond the propaganda imagery

[Bill]

CCCubbon wrote: "In my opinion it was a distinctly cowardly despicable act to put explosives in people’s pagers. The Israelis may be at war with Hezbollah but this is a true low in human behaviour, quite wicked."

What ridiculously misplaced sympathy. Members of a terrorist organization that routinely targets civilian populations and resorts to suicide bombers get their balls blown off in a cleverly planned attack and it's the Israelis who are cowardly. Give me a break.

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "In my opinion it was a distinctly cowardly despicable act to put explosives in people’s pagers. The Israelis may be at war with Hezbollah but this is a true low in human behaviour,..."

there is a delicious schadenfreude bill, in the fact that hundreds of violent terrorists have been wounded or maimed, probably when receiving orders from their bosses via pager....

apparently more explosions today, targeting walkie talkies that the terrorists use.....

[Bill]

AB76 wrote: "there is a delicious schadenfreude bill, in the fact that hundreds of violent terrorists have been wounded or maimed"

Israel is in an existential war against an absolutely ruthless and amoral enemy whose goal is the extermination of every single Israeli citizen, if not Jewry as a whole. This enemy does not care how many of their own citizens are killed, maimed, or displaced in the process.

Though I loathe Netanyahu, I am extremely reluctant to criticize measures taken by the IDF against such an implacable foe in this unprecedented kind of conflict.

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "there is a delicious schadenfreude bill, in the fact that hundreds of violent terrorists have been wounded or maimed"

Israel is in an existential war against an absolutely ruthless an..."

i have a very similar attitude Bill, though Netanyahu is the worst possible leader in times like this and should be in jail now, as he has been facing trials for years and strung them out, Trump style

[Robert]

scarletnoir wrote: "In the book I'm reading - 'Bournville' by Jonathan Coe - one character is reading, without much enthusiasm, the Booker-winning 'The Twilight of Otters' by Lionel Hampshire. This is, of course, a ma..."

Bulgakov's Master and Margarita contains two narratives: the first a visit to 1929 Moscow by Satan and his entourage. The story moves between horror and wild comedy. The second is a story of Pilate and Christ. It is not a religious novel in the ordinary sense; it is a philosophical novel-- with action! Bulgakov's wife called them "the ancient chapters." There is a resonance between the issues in the two stories.

[giveusaclue]

Can you imagine what would happen to some of the above posts on the Guardian website?

[Robert]

scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "Thanks for the new thread. Welcome in hospital days.
Besides light reading from Medicare, I've been leafing through Master of the Senate, by Robert Caro. Lyndon Baines Johnson, a ma..."

People not all good or bad? I ran into this on the internet today:

“When I was still young and a schoolboy, I heard that this Greek sentiment which I have subjoined was uttered by the philosopher Musonius, and since it is a true and brilliant saying, expressed briefly and roundly, I very willingly committed it to memory:

‘If you accomplish anything noble with toil, the toil passes, but the noble deed endures. If you do anything shameful with pleasure, the pleasure passes, but the shame endures.’”

Gellius, Attic Nights, Vol 3, Loeb Classical Library, 1927, p. 131.

[giveusaclue]

Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "Thanks for the new thread. Welcome in hospital days.
Besides light reading from Medicare, I've been leafing through Master of the Senate, by Robert Caro. Lyndon ..."

Or:
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones.”

William Shakespeare - Julius Caesar.

[scarletnoir]

giveusaclue wrote: "When you look around generally and see what colour schemes people wear, and how they decorate their homes, it is pretty obvious that we don't all see colours in the same way!.."

Haha! Very good!

I suspect, though, that most (but not all) disasters in taste are caused by fashion rather than differences in colour perception. The universal beige of the 50s- early 60s was followed by some startling hippy-ish colour schemes in wallpaper, all orange and green...

[scarletnoir]

giveusaclue wrote: "The solution to the problem is not going to come in the lifetimes of any of us here I regret to say..."

I very much fear you are right. I suspect most of us would very much like to see a settlement which guaranteed the right of Israel to exist - and its security from attack - in exchange for a palestinian state (I think that is roughly the UN position...?) Unfortunately, the belligerents seem unlikely to sign up to that any time soon - certainly not Netanyahu (who fears prosecution as son as he leaves power) and presumably not the Islamist states - you blame Iran - for supporting the belligerents on the other side.

It's a shame. I taught many Iranians who had to leave the country following Khomeini's takeover - lovely, hard working and charming people. Their cinema has produced some great films recently, despite the censors. The ultras really are dreadful people.

[scarletnoir]

giveusaclue wrote: "Then you look at how Hamas put their armouries in, under and around schools and hospitals. No moral high ground on either side..."

An unverified claim by the Israelis AFAIK - of course, if true, it was extremely cynical. If the IDS allowed - and protected - journalists rather than being indifferent to their survival, it would be easier for all of us to have some independent verification of the claims and counterclaims by both sides.

As someone once said: "In war, the first victim is truth."

No-one comes out of this well, that's for sure - whatever the 'truth'.

[scarletnoir]

CCCubbon wrote: "The bombing of women and children in Gaza breaks my heart. The act of putting explosives into the pagers which reports are crediting the Israelis seems particularly sneaky. - it feels so wrong..."

No arguing with your first sentence.

The second sentence refers to what seems to be a targeted attack on Hezbollah members - and in a war, I'd much prefer to see combatants being killed rather than other people. But as I say, bombs are indiscriminate and it seems likely (if the reports are true) that some others have been harmed or killed too.

It's still "less bad" than the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza - IMO, anyway. Some attempt was made to target individuals involved in the battle. As for 'sneaky' - "war is hell" (as I think Churchill said) and isn't a place to look for moral behaviour. You won't find it.

[scarletnoir]

Robert wrote: "It is not a religious novel in the ordinary sense; it is a philosophical novel-- with action!.."

H'm. You have almost persuaded me to give this a go, despite the fact that I don't like horror and am not religious (though as my fondness for Dostoyevsky shows, I'm all for debating the matter). I'll think about it!

[scarletnoir]

Robert wrote: " I ran into this on the internet today:.."

Good quote - Gellius was a wise man.

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "Can you imagine what would happen to some of the above posts on the Guardian website?"

the woke goons would be all over it!!

i'm still very disappointed with everything associated with moderators on the G

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "The solution to the problem is not going to come in the lifetimes of any of us here I regret to say..."

I very much fear you are right. I suspect most of us would very much lik..."

Iran has been sliding backwards for 45 years, its so sad that theocracies exist still in 2024. In my book on Saddam, the section looking at the Ayatollahs of South Iraq remarks that all the older generation disagreed with Khomeini, when he was in exile on Najaf, Iraq, that government by religion was a good thing, based on islamic law. He implemented his ideas in 1979 in Iran

This is not to say that Ayatollahs of Iraq like Khoei or Sistani are major liberals but they felt Islam was a pillar of the state, not "the" state and both Khoei and Sistani remained moderates in the Shia Muslim world. Oddly while Saddam killed many Shia clerics, he never had Khoei killed.

Sistani is till the Grand Ayatollah of Iraq, in his 90s

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Then you look at how Hamas put their armouries in, under and around schools and hospitals. No moral high ground on either side..."

An unverified claim by the Israelis AFAIK - o..."

a lot of evidence from captured areas of Gaza shows extensive use of civilian facilities to store weapons and use them to launch rockets. It seems like every square mile of Gaza had been used as a barracks of some kind.

Hamas viciously controlled Gaza, with the gun and the bomb, ruthless against their own and the enemy. I must explore more the allegations that Netanyahu used Hamas to divide Fatah in the West bank or marginalise Fatah. If true, another example of Netanyahu remaining the most corrupt and incompetent western leader in living memory.

He seemed to appear like a malign ghost over the hope of Oslo in the mid 1990s and drag Israel down into the mire, with Ariel Sharon.

[FrancesBurgundy]

scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "It is not a religious novel in the ordinary sense; it is a philosophical novel-- with action!.."

H'm. You have almost persuaded me to give this a go, despite the fact that I don't l..."

For what it's worth, I didn't really get The Master and Margarita at all, but I loved the Pilate and Christ parts - and I'm not religious, though I was brought up knowing quite a bit of the Bible. It was worth it for those chapters anyway.

[AB76]

FrancesBurgundy wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "It is not a religious novel in the ordinary sense; it is a philosophical novel-- with action!.."

H'm. You have almost persuaded me to give this a go, despite the..."

i loved the novel, except the Pilate and Christ parts and i have a great interest in religion and that story(Pilate and Christ) in particular!

the novel is a great satire on religion in many ways, in an atheist society, devils cannot exist, you need heaven to have hell, to be a believer but in the novel, the devil comes to atheist Moscow

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "The solution to the problem is not going to come in the lifetimes of any of us here I regret to say..."

I very much fear you are right. I suspect most of us..."

The Ayatollah's advantage against the intelligentsia was that an autocracy can muzzle discussion by secular means but cannot, in a Moslem country, shut down the mosques. In the mosques men can assemble, and in the mosques a mass opposition-- a religious based opposition- can form. Similar situation in Algeria.

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "It is not a religious novel in the ordinary sense; it is a philosophical novel-- with action!.."

H'm. You have almost persuaded me to giv..."

He comes to Moscow, and is amazed that people disbelieve not only in God but in Satan! But Professor Woland (as he calls himself) has many tricks up his sleeve...

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "It is not a religious novel in the ordinary sense; it is a philosophical novel-- with action!.."

H'm. You have almost persuaded me to giv..."

Well, as the very different views on the ancient chapters show, there is a distinct novel-within-a-novel in Bulgakov's book! The challenge-- can our author link them in a chapter at the end?

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "a lot of evidence from captured areas of Gaza shows extensive use of civilian facilities to store weapons and use them to launch rockets..."

I know such claims were made by the IDS - but they are hardly independent. I seem to recall claims about fighters lurking underneath hospitals, but little evidence was found by a journalist (BBC?). I go back to my question: which independent sources have verified the claims?

I repeat: if true, it was a deeply cynical move.

[scarletnoir]

FrancesBurgundy wrote: "For what it's worth, I didn't really get The Master and Margarita at all, but I loved the Pilate and Christ parts - and I'm not religious, though I was brought up knowing quite a bit of the Bible. It was worth it for those chapters anyway..."

Thanks - I suppose that would be like reading 'The Grand Inquisitor' section from Karamazov, but leaving out the rest. You'd get a lot from just that bit, but also miss out on a lot of other stuff.

[FrancesBurgundy]

scarletnoir wrote: "I suppose that would be like reading 'The Grand Inquisitor' section from Karamazov, but leaving out the rest. .."

For what it's worth, I didn't get the Grand Inquisitor bit either!

[giveusaclue]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "a lot of evidence from captured areas of Gaza shows extensive use of civilian facilities to store weapons and use them to launch rockets..."

I know such claims were made by the IDS - ..."

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfil...

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "The solution to the problem is not going to come in the lifetimes of any of us here I regret to say..."

I very much fear you are right. I suspe..."

yes, in Iran the mosques formed on pillar of the state for centuries, alongside the markets (street markets, bazaars) and then the leaders. the markets were a vital part of how Khomieni achieved his control of Iran, the mosques were already there and he simply executed or exiled the leaders who the shah left behind.

Shia majority Southern Iraq mimics many religious pillars of the Iranian system but in many ways is very different and peppered with dissidents and different thinkers. Sadly since 2003, Iranian influence on Southern Iraq has grown dangerously and the moderates like Khoei and Sistani are a minority but a solid minority

[AB76]

Big Karlo aka Karl Marx is always a fascinating read and the Indian section of his journalism for the New York Tribune was fascinating.

In lacerating prose, Marx exposes the questionable accounting of the East India Company before and after the mutiny in 1857. He looks at the fate of the EIC as they finally lost any chance to plunder India as a private trading company(he sees the EIC as simply a copy of the Dutch East Indies Company)

Most importantly, he believes it was the British who destroyed the durable hardiness of India in the face of a few centuries of conquerors( where ta long line of conquering forces almost were absorbed by the depth of Indian culture). As very quickly, the Brits set about disrupting ancient traditions of trade and money making, enclosing the lands and exploiting the workers. Initially, if cynically Marx observes, the EIC refrained from any religious missions or ideals but but by the mid 19c this had changed, though arguably not via the EIC

It makes me see the British Empire as a more of a disruptor than many consider, clearly it was a rapacious, greedy, mercantile monster but disruption, creative or destructive, is an effective way, with divide and rule to cause a severe disconnect from tradition, vital to a conqueror.

[scarletnoir]

l fear that my laptop may have been hacked, so won't be commenting for a while until I feel safe to do so. (from my mobile)

[giveusaclue]

scarletnoir wrote: "l fear that my laptop may have been hacked, so won't be commenting for a while until I feel safe to do so. (from my mobile)"

Oh no! Hope you get sorted soon.

[Gpfr]

AB76 wrote: "Big Karlo aka Karl Marx is always a fascinating read and the Indian section of his journalism for the New York Tribune was fascinating...."

I found William Dalrymple's White Mughals: Love and Betrayal in Eighteenth-Century Indiaa very interesting read.

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "l fear that my laptop may have been hacked, so won't be commenting for a while until I feel safe to do so. (from my mobile)"

crikey...have got a local IT shop to take it to?

[AB76]

Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Big Karlo aka Karl Marx is always a fascinating read and the Indian section of his journalism for the New York Tribune was fascinating...."

I found William Dalrymple's [book:White Mug..."

my mother enjoyed that too...making a note of it...thanks Gp!

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "It is not a religious novel in the ordinary sense; it is a philosophical novel-- with action!.."

H'm. You have almost persuaded me to giv..."

It is indeed a great satire, and not just of religion. As Woland says to his henchman Koroviev, what he wants to learn is if the Moscovites have changed inwardly. All sorts of secrets spill out....

[Robert]

scarletnoir wrote: "l fear that my laptop may have been hacked, so won't be commenting for a while until I feel safe to do so. (from my mobile)"

Oy! Good luck.

[scarletnoir]

giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "l fear that my laptop may have been hacked, so won't be commenting for a while until I feel safe to do so. (from my mobile)"

Oh no! Hope you get sorted soon."

Thanks to you and the others who expressed concern.

I took it to an IT shop here in France, they ran a commercial virus scanner on it and couldn't find anything, so I hope it's OK. I'm fairly - but not completely - reassured.

In the meantime, I have resumed Stef Penney's The Beasts of Paris, which I failed to properly get into a couple of months back. This time, it's going well and I'm past p300 (it's a long book). It deals with the siege of Paris by the Prussians in 1870, and its aftermath... and the zoo.

[scarletnoir]

Robert wrote: "It is indeed a great satire..."

Whereas satire around religion will always have relevance, political satire must date rather quickly.

Is there a risk that sections of this book have dated as a result?

[Robert]

giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "In my opinion it was a distinctly cowardly despicable act to put explosives in people’s pagers. The Israelis may be at war with Hezbollah but this ..."

Decades before the Soviet empire broke up, "Eagles in Cobwebs" reminded readers about the First World War political cultures and nationalist ambitions which still existed. And do still exist.

[Bill]

scarletnoir wrote: "Whereas satire around religion will always have relevance, political satire must date rather quickly."

Gulliver’s Travels and Animal Farm have held up pretty well.

[AB76]

Just back from the coast, glorious weather yesterday, 22c, pleasent breeze and perfect for walking round marshes, on shingle and enjoying a last breath of summer

Today wetter and cooler, autumn back in focus but i dont mind either weather, while famously i loathe hot weather, anything from 20-24c is perfect

Not much reading except for some books of my fathers on the Solent, about the salt industry up to 1860s and then pollution and human expansion in 20c

[scarletnoir]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Whereas satire around religion will always have relevance, political satire must date rather quickly."

Gulliver’s Travels and Animal Farm have held up..."

They have a reputation, but FWIW I haven't read either, though I'm no admirer of Orwell's far too obvious propaganda in his fiction (as opposed to his reportage in 'Homage to Catalonia').

As for Swift, I have no idea which politicians were being satirised by him. If he was simply making fun of their corrupt nature or willingness to change their views to suit current opinion, then sure - that doesn't change.

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Whereas satire around religion will always have relevance, political satire must date rather quickly."

Gulliver’s Travels and Animal Farm have held up..."

yes, both excellent books

[giveusaclue]

AB76 wrote: "Just back from the coast, glorious weather yesterday, 22c, pleasent breeze and perfect for walking round marshes, on shingle and enjoying a last breath of summer

Today wetter and cooler, autumn ba..."

Lucky you! Here in the E Midlands, we had torrential rain and thunderstorms starting yesterday evening and going on for hours, and today it has hardly stopped pouring down. And forecast the same tomorrow.

[Bill]

scarletnoir wrote: "Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Whereas satire around religion will always have relevance, political satire must date rather quickly."

Gulliver’s Travels and Animal Farm..."

What books would you classify as having a satirical treatment of religion?

Of those I've read, only Erewhon comes immediately to mind. And no doubt there's a religious implication in the Lilliputians' "big-end" and "little-end" conflict in Gulliver. I suppose The Satanic Verses, which I haven't read, would also qualify.

[Robert]

scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "Thanks for the new thread. Welcome in hospital days.
Besides light reading from Medicare, I've been leafing through Master of the Senate, by Robert Caro. Lyndon Baines Johnson, a ma..."

I'm not confined to bed--at least, with most nurses. I am confined by the Medicare insurer, which terminated physical therapy even though I cannot walk without observation. And as to navigating 30 stairs to a third-floor apartment-- well, let's just say I'm in Insurance Limbo, shifted from facility to facility. Not all facilities will accept Washington State's Apple insurance, which supplements federal Medicare coverage.
So my last facility shipped me out on Friday, and a new therapist--who treated me a few times at the last place-- will evaluate me again.
Here in the coils of Obamacare...

[giveusaclue]

Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "Thanks for the new thread. Welcome in hospital days.
Besides light reading from Medicare, I've been leafing through Master of the Senate, by Robert Caro. Lyndon ..."

So sorry to hear of your ongoing problems. Makes my hip replacement seem like a doddle, as I was walking up and downstairs within a couple of days without a problem.

Hope you get sorted soon.

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Just back from the coast, glorious weather yesterday, 22c, pleasent breeze and perfect for walking round marshes, on shingle and enjoying a last breath of summer

Today wetter and cool..."

its been a lot greyer since i got back to the shires...i did savour the sun yesterday, sitting and thinking "this is possibly the last day when it will be 23c until May or June". Important even for cold weather lovers like me to feel positives in all that sun and light

they played the Bramble Bank cricket match too(on a sandbar in the solent), postponed from August and its nice to think they got this amazing weather so late in sept

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "Thanks for the new thread. Welcome in hospital days.
Besides light reading from Medicare, I've been leafing through Master of the Senate, by Robert Caro. Lyndon ..."

is the prognosis good Robert?

i know you will be reading interesting things and keeping the mind active in these tricky times. It all seems so different to the NHS out there..

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Whereas satire around religion will always have relevance, political satire must date rather quickly."

Gulliver’s Travels and [book..."

hmmm....i am struggling to think of any more than the two you mention