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The Sound and the Fury
FAULKNER'S SOUTH- SOUND and FURY
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TS and TF Thread 2 - Spoilers for June Second, 1910. Quentin
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Traveller wrote: "Linda wrote: "My niece was in New Bern, NC for about 10 yrs or so, except the 2 yrs her hubby pulled off the sticks, they were sent to the desert of CA...."My BIL actually had a bad reason for wa..."
😄 "off the sticks" there meant not flying, but rather training others
Traveller wrote: ""...tramping my shadow into the dust.." seems to be a recurring phrase, along with other mentions of shadows, so yes, Bonitaj and Linda, definitely a kind of obsession, along with the "time" theme....""Bubba" is just a southern standard for one's brother; I've bever heard that it had to be derogatory.
This "shadow"....predates Churchill's "black dog", doesn't it?
Saski wrote: "Traveller wrote: "There are so many themes to explore from pretty much the get-go in Quentin, that it's hard to know where to begin: I looked up the St Francis quote about "sister death", and thoug..."Donovan...it's been just a moment :D
Mod
Sure, I'll take your word for it, though condescending doesn't quite mean the same as derogatory, but I suppose also not quite the same as regular.
Traveller wrote: "Linda wrote: ""Bubba" is just a southern standard for one's brother; I've bever heard that it had to be derogatory."Sure, I'll take your word for it, though condescending doesn't quite mean the s..."
Ok, to give you an example: a colleague married someone from Alabama. They named their cats Chuck and Bubba. 🤷🏻♀️
One thing that has hit me, although I still have to finish Quentin's part (because I have another interlibrary loan book overdue): None of these characters have been developed to the point where I'm rooting for them or truly interested. I feel sorry for Quentin so far, because of his insufferable mother and his depression, but I really don't know enough about any of them to want good things or bad things for any of them. What's intriguing me is more the mystery of figuring out what traumatic event happened, which I kind of know/expect.
Well said Linda! I have a similar kind of "malaise" - for want of a better word. I keep wondering when or if it's going to get better. I'm still on the Quentin chapter and haven't read any additional notes at the back of my book. Traveller, I agree with your descriptions of the incestuous undertones between Quentin and Caddy... I'm at the point where I'm waiting for the dam to break! One almost feels tainted reading some of the stuff and I'm wondering if that was Faulkner's intent!
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What most certainly doesn't help in either Benjy or Quentin, is that something that happens in their present reminds them of a past event, and then present and past gets jumbled up.
Strictly speaking this is a bit of a spoiler, but I'm going to mention it because you'll only know what I mean if you've reached that part of the narrative; Quentin basically "fights" as in a physical altercation, 3 people; Dalton Ames (who pulls a gun on him) and Caddy in the past, and Gerald Bland in the present. At the point where Caddy was seeing Dalton and Quentin was trying to stop her, I got so confused with who was saying what that I started to consult notes after every few pages for clarity. I will hint at the things I managed to figure out under a spoiler tag, but don't reply to it in this thread, I think once you get the whole picture, let's talk about that in the next thread, the Jason thread, so that we can relax about throwing out spoilers.:
(view spoiler)
There were some other things I wanted to post, but if you're not finished with the chapter yet, I think I'll post those in the Jason thread to be discussed once you're done.
I will throw out a few general comments in the meantime:
One major theme that we forgot to mention is the river and water theme – lots of goings-on in water, especially considering that "the branch" was also water.
Non fui. Sum. Fui. Non sum. translates to: I wasn't. I am. I was. I am not.
"dolls stuffed with sawdust" sounds like a nod to T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men.
"watching against red eyelids the swine untethered in pairs rushing coupled into the sea" - another reference to Euboeleus; I wonder what the connection is – does he feel that Caddy is similar to Persephone?
Perhaps another quick spoiler tag:
(view spoiler)
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At first I just felt Quentin was a neurotic weirdo, but as the narration becomes more emotional, I couldn't help starting to feel a lot of empathy for him, especially since he seems to have a good heart basically, just very unlucky in how his emotional attachments played out, and unlucky to have such bad parents. You really do see the effect of the mother's bad mothering as well, because he often says: "if only I had a mother". 😥
I have to confess I went for investigative back surgery today and although I had my book with me for the waiting period, I didn't have the wherewithal to tackle Faulkner! Traveller you've given a wealth of info. that I'll try and come back to comment on tomorrow! Thanks for the engaging group and the informative leadership!
Traveller wrote: "Linda wrote: "One thing that has hit me, although I still have to finish Quentin's part (because I have another interlibrary loan book overdue): None of these characters have been developed to the ..."I read the first spoiler because I'm more or less intuited what is going on there. But not the second.
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Traveller you've given a ..."
I am sorry to hear about your medical problems Bonitaj, and wish you all the best for a good outcome.
I think one must relax with the Quentin part and not struggle too hard about trying to figure out who said what - just let the emotional content of it wash over you, and then when you get to the end, have a look at all the notes and spoilers and perhaps in that light, then re-read the parts that didn't make sense to you.
What I did was I would read a few pages of those jumbled memories, and then consult notes and then read it again for an aha moment.
There are of course parts in his present that are straightforward and easy to follow, such as his adventures with the three fishing boys and the little Italian girl. Those I would just read through as if it were a normal novel.
And yet, there again, we have the trout, which to me was symbolic of something untouchable, and as such probably represents being in a place Quentin himself would like to be :
The trout hung, delicate and motionless among the wavering shadows.
The whole episode with the little Italian girl is of course also symbolic, but I'm still trying to decide exactly how she fits into the symbolic scheme of things.
Suggestions from you guys will be very welcome. :)
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If you've read up to the point where Quentin attacks Gerald Bland for saying, among other things: "Talking about the body’s beauty and the sorry ends thereof and how tough women have it, without anything else they can do except lie on their backs. Leda lurking in the bushes, whimpering and moaning for the swan, see.",
then you should be good to go checking the second spoiler, because at this point the chapter starts to gradually draw to its conclusion and we don't have any new revelations about the past as far as I can see.
Mod
It does, and I think you're right, it does seem to be an apt metaphor for Quentin's black thoughts and state of depression.
Linda wrote: "They named their cats Chuck and Bubba.."
I've often heard the epithet 'bubba' being used, but I never made the link to brother, dense that I am, 🤦♀️ I just always thought it was just an affectionate little name which sounded more like a grown-up (as opposed to infantilising) version of "baby", I guess... 🙈 and now that you mention it, I can see how "brotha" can easily turn into "bubba"
Morning everyone! Traveller thanks for the update and new insights. To me, the incident with the little girl spoke volumes.
a) her only means of communication was with her eyes. Her compliance to be lead, indicated both his trustworthiness and (accentuated) her innocence.
b) My ambivalence about his intentions was highlighted by those that caught him. I could clearly see his innocence but setting himself up like that was downright careless.
Mod
To me, the incident with the little girl spoke volumes.
a) her only means of communication was with her eyes. Her compliance to..."
Thanks for that, Bonitaj! You are right about the little girl's silence being symbolic there, I think - she is reminiscent of the Caddy character in that they are both voiceless, yet stubborn eh? ..and perhaps speaking for how often societies relegate women to a 'voiceless' role - btw terrible about that new Afghan law that prohibits women's voices from being heard in public....
She also seems to me to be a symbol of innocence - the character of Caddy also started off as being innocent, and I feel that Quentin feels drawn to innocence, hence his initial warm feelings towards the little girl.
However, innocent little girls can also be a source of trouble, and here I'm still struggling to formulate my thoughts, but as to Quentin's intentions, I think he instinctively felt protective towards the little girl, just as he felt protective towards Caddy. (Note that he keeps calling the little girl "sista") These protective feelings are then mirrored by her brother, who attacks Quentin as a potential defiler, in order to protect his little sister, the Italian girl.
I think there is a lot to say about the little Italian girl, which I am going to mull over for perhaps a later thread such as the ending spoiler thread or the themes thread.
In Jason's defence, I suppose he never thought that she would follow him so tenaciously, and of course tries his best to 'get rid' of her, and I think there might be symbolism in that as well.
Just btw, regarding whether incest took place or not: (view spoiler)
Mod
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Traveller wrote: "Linda wrote: "This "shadow"....predates Churchill's "black dog", doesn't it?.."It does, and I think you're right, it does seem to be an apt metaphor for Quentin's black thoughts and state of depr..."
Bubba...yep. very southern, pretty much innocuous, though these days, online, it can be used to imply someone is an uneducated rube (think "Billy Jo Jim Bob").
I still have a bit to go on Quentin. Had a pipe burst, so have been doing things around the house and will probably be able to focus on it this weekend
Mod
Oh that's always a bummer, sorry to hear. I once had an underground pipe burst, and they had to dig up the concrete to get to it... no worries, we'll be around. :)
I posed the questions earlier in this thread, as to what the symbolism of THE SHADOW was and why the use of italicss, in the Quentin section. I have since then come across a question and answer interview with Faulkner that addresses both questions:THE SHADOW:
"That wasn't a deliberate symbolism. I would say that the shadow that stayed on his mind so much was foreknowledge of his own death, that
he was - Death is here, shall I step into it, or shall I step away from it a little longer? I won't escape it, but shall I accept it now or shall I put it off until
next Friday? I think that if it had any reason that must have been it."
THE ITALICS:
"I had to use some method to indicate to the reader that this idiot had no sense of time. That what happened to him ten years ago was just yesterday. The way I wanted to do it was to use different colored inks, but that would have cost so much, the publisher couldn't undertake it".
both the above quotes are taken from THe Norton Edition as follows:The Shadow (February 15,1957 (Session One) Graduate Course in American Fiction pg. 242
The Italics (April 27, 1957) Session Twelve Graduate Course in American Fiction Undergraduate Course in the Novel pg. 247
Bonitaj wrote: "both the above quotes are taken from THe Norton Edition as follows:The Shadow (February 15,1957 (Session One) Graduate Course in American Fiction pg. 242
The Italics (April 27, 1957) Session Twelv..."
Thank you so much for this. I'm still working my way through Quentin; this info should really help!
Mod
Thank you Bonitaj! Yes, that aspect is discussed in many of my 'side-reading' articles about TS and TF; and which is why I've tried to help out a bit by working on a timeline. (Since it made me realize that Faulkner was not deliberately trying to make the novel unreadable - he was more trying to recreate an authentic stream-of-consciousness experience).
I am finished with the book, so I am in a position to flesh out the timeline a bit more in our timeline thread; would you like me to do that, fellow readers?
Or any other assistance at this stage? I do have a lot of books on this novel and though I haven't read them all, I would be happy to look up any questions you might have?
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Bonitaj or I could perhaps copy and paste that quote to that thread a bit later in the reading and we can discuss. Thanks again for those contributions, Bonitaj!
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We've already mentioned that the concept of 'time' is a big thing in TS and TF, and elsewhere I have remarked that it features in each of the 4 chapters with each of the narrators, but in a different way with each narrator.
As far as Quentin is concerned, what would you say, why does Quentin break his watch, and what does this act signify about his personality in general and his current mental state in particular?
In addition, it is clear that Quentin is preoccupied with time - how does Faulkner use Quentin’s obsession with time to explore deeper themes in the novel, such as memory, identity, and the passage of time?
PS. Can you think of an additional significance that Quentin's watch may have for him, beyond that it is a symbol of the passage of time?
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..and what, would you say, do his obsessions reveal about his own insecurities, and what have you noticed about the relationship he has with Southern honor, morality and values as exemplified by his parents?
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In the beginning of the Quentin narrative, Quentin mulls over his father's pronouncements a lot; do you think he accepts his father's worldview, and in which ways do his and his father's worldviews agree or differ, for example as it pertains to time, life, meaning, the meaning of life, women, masculinity, and so forth, and just in a general sense?
Mod
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Traveller wrote: "Bonitaj wrote: ""I had to use some method to indicate to the reader that this idiot had no sense of time. That what happened to him ten years ago was just yesterday. The way I wanted to do it was t..."Yes, please! :D
Traveller wrote: "Hmm, our discussion seems to have stalled. Let's see if we can jumpstart it again with a few well-aimed questions.We've already mentioned that the concept of 'time' is a big thing in TS and TF, an..."
I would say that the watch represents his link to his father, and that he broke when he felt that link was broken ... maybe?
I have a question. Who is the 'blackguard' Quentin often mentions in relation to his sister, Caddy?
Traveller wrote: "How would you describe what you see as the old-fashioned Nineteenth Century ideals of masculinity - as in the perceived qualities that a "Southern gentleman" should have?"Traveller wrote: "It soon becomes clear to the reader, that not only was Benjy from the previous chapter obsessed with Caddy, but Quentin is obsessed with her as well. How, would you say, does Quentin’s view of Cadd..."
I would say that deep inside Caddy effects Quentin sexually but he refuses to see it and thus his feelings come out more as ... sibling affection or protectiveness, maybe....
Traveller wrote: "How would you describe what you see as the old-fashioned Nineteenth Century ideals of masculinity - as in the perceived qualities that a "Southern gentleman" should have?"Personally it makes me noxious, but many things about the South affect me that way....
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Ok, since we have come to this point, I'm not going to worry about spoilers anymore. What I have gleaned from my readings is this: (And here I am going to answer some of my own discussion questions to some extent) . As you may have noticed, the Compson's mother isn't very maternal, so this affects each of the children, but in different ways; it is my personal belief that since Caddy is obviously a warm and affectionate person, that she goes to seek love and affection in the arms of boys and men, and that she unfortunately fell pregnant in the process - this is what happened to her when she says she is "sick" and that she needs to get married and that then it won't be a problem anymore.
So, this happened when she was around 18 and Quentin around 20. In any case, then their mother takes Caddy to the "French Lick" holiday resort, where Caddy meets a guy named Herbert Head. Herbert presents himself as successful and wealthy, promising Jason junior a job in "his" bank; and Mrs Compson is very taken with him, so they grab him to be Caddy's husband. Later, when Quentin meets him, he recognizes him as a guy who cheated both at cards as well as in the exams at Harvard. (Remember that Quentin is studying at Harvard.)
So, it is because Herbert is revealed to actually be dishonest and morally bankrupt, that Quentin calls him a "blackguard" (but of course Quentin hates him in any case because Herbert took his beloved Caddy away from him – or so he feels, in any case).
The Quentin chapter happens about a month after Caddy's wedding - does that help a bit with the timeline? We can finish the timeline once we have done the Jason chapter, because a lot actually happens in the Jason chapter.
Mod
Yep, the watch represents at least 2 things that I could figure out, namely the passage of time, and like you said Quentin's link with his father. Ok, now I asked the question about the masculinity because I think masculinity is a pretty important part of this novel; the novel takes place at a time when modernity started to set in and old values started to be questioned. Interestingly, the father does NOT really represent the conservative, the controlling and the "old guard", but it is more Quentin, with his sensitive and obsessive personality that does this.
You may have noted that the father has a very existentialist, pretty much nihilistic and fatalistic outlook on life; (which was pretty modern at the time) -according to him, human endeavor is futile: at the start of the chapter Quentin recalls his father saying:
...hearing the watch. It was Grandfather’s and when Father gave it to me he said I give you the mausoleum of all hope and desire; it’s rather excruciatingly apt that you will use it to gain the reducto absurdum of all human experience which can fit your individual needs no better than it fitted his or his father’s. I give it to you not that you may remember time, but that you might forget it now and then for a moment and not spend all your breath trying to conquer it. Because no battle is ever won he said. They are not even fought. The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools.
Now, I think that Quentin rejected this directive given by his father - Quentin is a very controlling person; to him, I think, masculinity represents honor and control; he feels that he is supposed to control his family members (in this case Caddy), to keep them pure and honorable. He also tries to control time with all these little games he plays with time and with shadows - he even tried to control his own shadow by constantly trying to trick it, and he is also constantly trying to break time's hold on him.
So, I think he breaks the watch not only in order to control or limit the power of time, but also, like you said, I think he is thereby rejecting his father's suggestion that he shouldn't "try and conquer" time - it sounds as if the father already knew of Quentin's obsessions when he told him that.
(Sorry, and I meant to add in here that I think Quentin also rejects his father's outlook on life - the story hints that the father drank himself to death, so yeah, not a very positive role model).
Ultimately, of course, Quentin doesn't manage to control all of the things he tries to control, and fights back in the only way he knows how to assert the ultimate control (view spoiler)
Mod
Yeah, I think Faulkner leaves that one pretty much open to interpretation, but I did have a thought that perhaps Quentin is damaged by the lack of care or affection from his parents, and since Caddy is a motherly and affectionate girl, he sort of gets from her what he wasn't getting from them, if that makes sense.
Sort of, she was the only person who ever gave him the kind of unconditional love that you get from a parent, so he is pretty mixed up, and I do think he gets pretty jealous when she gets involved with other males, because he feels she 'belongs' to him, in perhaps more ways than one, and that could also include the sexual aspect.
However, I do think the little Italian girl is a pointer that shows us that Quentin feels protective towards the innocent; so perhaps a part of the sexual jealousy around Caddy has to do with that he wanted to keep her pure (in addition to that he wanted to keep her for himself)?
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Mrs. Dalloway (other topics)Ulysses (other topics)
Hi, Bonitaj, I'm not saying there's not misogyny; I mean there definitely are instances of the denigration of women, and women generally seem to be portrayed in a negative light; there's not a single accomplished woman that I've come across so far in the novel at this point where I'm only towards the end of the Quentin section.
However I did want to clear that little point up, because it further illustrates something that I wanted to comment on, being that I do think that Quentin and Caddy had an unusually intense, even unhealthy preoccupation with one another, not just from Quentin's side, but from Caddy's side as well- although granted she is the more normal sibling of the two.
This is why I looked up whether Faulkner had any sisters or not, because some pretty darn strong feelings are expressed in the Quentin section, and I was wondering where all of that was coming from.
In any case, you might recall that Caddy's husband, Herbert Head commented on how much Caddy talked about Quentin and how he also found it a bit disconcerting how intense the two's feelings towards one another seemed to be.
Of course the Compson parents had their heads stuck up their own behinds too much to see what was going on right under their eyes.