Ersatz TLS discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Weekly TLS
>
What are we reading? 12/08/2024
date
newest »
newest »
Logger24 wrote: "I do remember Quiet Days in Clichy"I'd never heard of that ... evidently there were two versions made: 1970 and 1990.
Logger24 wrote: "AB76 wrote: "re translations of french classicsmy zola novel is beckoning me but i have Heath and then Boll to read beforehand
my question is, was there an equivalent of Constance Garnett in fre..."
thanks logger...tancock rings a bell but i cant check my french classics as most are wedged behind a load of books on my shelves.
For a chance find on a Waterstones browse in the spring, i am enthralled by The Murderer
, its a brilliant, brooding and well constructed novel of Guyana, class, society and murderHeath creates a novel of levels, there is the central characters, the locations, the class situation and also the careful observations of Guyana over a 15 year period. The descriptions are vivid of the low lying riverine life of the inland towns, the bauxite mines and bustling Georgetown, the capital. Dutch names, french names, english names all show the history of the Guyana region
In terms of plot, without giving too much away, its a study of anger and repressed feelings, of sin transmitted through a distant mother and a web of relatives and friends who create a realistic portrait of middle class West Indian life.
Not once has the novel dragged or has Heath failed to keep my attention, 30 odd pages to go and its wonderful to be reading a book i never expected to read or knew about
Logger24 wrote: "National Vigilance Association, outraged by The Soil (1888), a translation of Zola’s shocking novel of peasant life, La Terre (1887), took Vizetelly to court...."Reading Zola in the original or a modern English translation you realise how very different the French and British/ Americans were regarding what could be written about. I can't imagine Dickens writing about monthly periods (Germinal), wiping semen off with a handful of straw (La Terre), a textbook description of righting a breech birth inside the womb (La Joie de Vivre), a textbook description of giving birth alone (Pot Bouille) - I don't expect you want me to continue, but the French didn't complain about those things as far as I know. Quelle différence.
And to raise the tone a bit, the guide mentions Gerard Hopkins (Gerard Walter Sturgis Hopkins, not his relative Gerard Manley). I came across him as the translator of Les Hommes de Bonne Volonté by Jules Romains and was mightily impressed with how well his translations read. I did later see that he took more liberties than some, but it was such a pleasure to read. And such an enormous series to translate, though I think he only started at number four.
FrancesBurgundy wrote: "Logger24 wrote: "National Vigilance Association, outraged by The Soil (1888), a translation of Zola’s shocking novel of peasant life, La Terre (1887), took Vizetelly to court...."Reading Zola in ..."
Zola was a real glimpse for me into what most of the british victorian writers were not expressing, the plain facts of life and loving.
Bill wrote: "Logger24 wrote: "I’ve now read half the first long volume of the Journal of Anaïs Nin, and I’m going to leave it there. It was interesting to learn why this dense work drew attention and some admir..."Bulgakov's journal (published as Manuscripts Don't Burn)-- diary entries, including material Bulgakov thought destroyed-- are interesting reading about the Russia that followed the Revolution.
Contrasting Bulgakov's observations with those of Bruno Schulz reminds one that there really is a difference between introvert and extrovert-- the same sort of contrast appears between Orwell and Nin.
scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "🤣 Not that far off!!How is the knee by the way?."
Well, I beg to differ on that!
As for the knee - there is a little improvement every day, and I could actually lift my foot..."
Good news on the knee. I have my own struggles on the knee front (left knee replaced, clot formed, swelling being reduced) and can only offer encouragement.
AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "Names of places: On D-Day, American paratroopers were dropped all over the Continin peninsula. One group of lost paratroopers and a friendly Frenchman tried their best to make out wh..."It's turning into a Western Washington summer-- that is, weeks of heat followed by rain and chill, rather like October. We may heat up again next week. I've reached that interesting stage post-op where you notice how many kind faces-- and kind small deeds-- there are around you. (Noticed much of this pre-op, too, when I had so much difficulty moving around.)
scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "Names of places: On D-Day, American paratroopers were dropped all over the Continin peninsula. One group of lost paratroopers and a friendly Frenchman tried their best to make out wh..."A typo? Didn't I hear that the Cornish spell it that way?
FrancesBurgundy wrote: "Reading Zola in the original or a modern English translation you realise how very different the French and British/ Americans were regarding what could be written about. I can't imagine Dickens writing about monthly periods (Germinal), wiping semen off with a handful of straw (La Terre), a textbook description of righting a breech birth inside the womb (La Joie de Vivre), a textbook description of giving birth alone (Pot Bouille) - I don't expect you want me to continue, but the French didn't complain about those things as far as I know. Quelle différence."I never felt that Dickens was prevented from telling the stories he wanted to tell in needing to conform to the publishing norms of his day. It occurred to me while reading Little Dorrit that his circumlocutory style allowed him to address situations that a more direct style would have made too plain to be permitted.
I thought this tale would amuse you all:A would-be burglar in Rome was caught after stopping to read a book on Greek mythology in the middle of a robbery, Italian media report.
The 38-year-old reportedly gained access to a flat in the Italian capital's Prati district via the balcony but became distracted after picking up a book about Homer's Iliad on a bedside table.
The 71-year-old homeowner is said to have awoken and confronted the alleged thief, who was engrossed in the book.
News of the failed robbery attracted the attention of the book's author, who told local media he wanted to send the man a copy so he could "finish" his read.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c...
(I know someone in our online book groups - here or in the Guardian - is a huge admirer of Homer's work... sorry, I have forgotten who it is.)
Bill wrote: "his circumlocutory style allowed him to address situations that a more direct style would have made too plain to be permitted."Are you saying that there was censorship in the UK (by publisher - tacit - or by government - legislated)? And that this prevented Dickens being as blunt as Zola? Genuine question - I have no knowledge on this topic.
Robert wrote: "A typo? Didn't I hear that the Cornish spell it that way?."I have no idea, since my only experience of hearing this name/seeing it written has come in France, which I know far better than Cornwall.
You are saying that the name has been altered by the English, then - in the same way that Köln is rendered as 'Cologne'?
That may well be, for all I know.
Robert wrote: "It's turning into a Western Washington summer-- that is, weeks of heat followed by rain and chill, rather like October.."Here we are having a western Welsh summer, which is very like your Washington summer minus the 'weeks of heat' bit! (It's been exceptionally windy, and has rained a lot.)
Thanks for asking about the knee... it seemed to get a lot better yesterday, but all this sitting, using crutches and awkward movement has caused a nasty bout of sciatica - my back is now in a bad way!
Hope your knee is fully mended soon...
Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "Names of places: On D-Day, American paratroopers were dropped all over the Continin peninsula. One group of lost paratroopers and a friendly Frenchman tried their best t..."hope your recovery post-op goes well robert
extremes of weather like that can be fustrating, summer 2024 in SE England has been a cool one. two short warm spells but June and the first half of July were coolest i can remember(16c in early July is exceedingly rare)
scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "A typo? Didn't I hear that the Cornish spell it that way?."I have no idea, since my only experience of hearing this name/seeing it written has come in France, which I know far bett..."
the origin of Cologne comes from the latin Colonia
AB76 wrote: "the origin of Cologne comes from the latin Colonia.."Ah! So the Germans are the ones who got it wrong... :-)
Robert wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "🤣 Not that far off!!How is the knee by the way?."
Well, I beg to differ on that!
As for the knee - there is a little improvement every day, and I could a..."
Sorry about the complications Robert. Hope things settle soon.
scarletnoir wrote: "Are you saying that there was censorship in the UK (by publisher - tacit - or by government - legislated)? And that this prevented Dickens being as blunt as Zola? Genuine question - I have no knowledge on this topic."Given my occasional reading on the subject of Victorian erotica, I ought to be able to answer your question more readily, but in fact I'm not sure exactly what legal sanctions existed at the time. There was certainly tacit censorship by publishers - works that were at all explicit about sexuality (and @FrancesBurgundy's examples would qualify) had to be printed on the continent (usually France or Belgium I believe) and smuggled into England.
Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "...works that were at all explicit about sexuality (and @FrancisBurgundy's examples would qualify) had to be printed on the continent (usually France or Belgium I believe) and smuggled into England."I didn't know that about the 19th C, but am well aware that 20th C works by Henry Miller and IIRC Nabokov's 'Lolita' were first published on the continent (by Olympia Press?). I think maybe the same applied to Joyce's 'Ulysses', but I'm not sure. (I could be wrong about this as it's from memory.)
scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the origin of Cologne comes from the latin Colonia.."Ah! So the Germans are the ones who got it wrong... :-)"
lol!
Mod
I think maybe the same applied to Joyce's 'Ulysses'"...
Yes, absolutely, by Sylvia Beach at Shakespeare & Company (not in the present-day premises of course, but Rue de l'Odéon).
Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "There was certainly tacit censorship by publishers ."But there's a difference between Victorian erotica and realism in novels that aim to depict life as it is. Zola was published in France and afaik people didn't complain about the references to sexual functions etc. I think erotica, not that I'm an expert, would be a bit different from Zola's descriptions of what I mentioned yesterday.
All I can say is that I come from an era, post covering up piano legs with frilly trousers, but still influenced by a lot of embarrassment about bodily functions. My ancestors were Victorian about it. I learnt what I knew from the problem pages of 'Woman', but it was so vague that it didn't tell me much.
I don't think for a moment that Dickens would have wished to be more explicit than he was. It just wasn't talked about, let alone written about in those days. Why? Protestantism? Queen Victoria? I have no idea, but I do know that it's a difficult thing to throw off. It wasn't easy for me to talk to my children about, even though I was a pretty enlightened product of the swinging sixties.
FrancesBurgundy wrote: "But there's a difference between Victorian erotica and realism in novels that aim to depict life as it is. Zola was published in France and afaik people didn't complain about the references to sexual functions etc. I think erotica, not that I'm an expert, would be a bit different from Zola's descriptions of what I mentioned yesterday."I agree that there's a literary difference, but was there a legal difference?
I assume that any English fiction that had scenes explicitly depicting sexuality or reproduction would have met with the same suppression as pornography.
I also assume that, since the novels of Zola were legally available in France, French books along the lines of The Autobiography of a Flea, The Way of a Man with a Maid, or Fanny Hill would not be suppressed. Do you know if this was the case? Or did 19th century French law make a distinction between art and pornography?
Mod
But there's a difference between Victorian erotica and realism in novels that aim to depict life as it is. Zola was published in France and afaik people didn't complain about the references to sexual functions etc. I think erotica, not that I'm an expert, would be a bit different from Zola's descriptions of what I mentioned yesterday....
I don't think for a moment that Dickens would have wished to be more explicit than he was. It just wasn't talked about, let alone written about in those days."
I very much agree with your summation. I can’t think of any English author of that time who showed an inclination to write about physical desire in Zola’s frank and natural manner. To add one more example to your earlier list, the sex-and-shopping sequences in Pot-Bouille are unimaginable in a Victorian British novel.
Mod
Works serialised in the press before publication as a book could be cut and this was the case for Zola. Here's an article about that:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/blog/18082021/...
Madame Bovary was given a publicity boost by those who wanted to censor it:
Flaubert, Laurent-Pichat et l'imprimeur Pillet sont inculpés pour « délits d'outrage à la morale publique et religieuse et aux bonnes moeurs ».Finally they were acquitted, but Baudelaire and Les Fleurs du Mal were not.
https://www.la-croix.com/Culture/Actu...
Here's a "Top 5" of books censored in France:
https://www.senscritique.com/liste/to...
Gpfr wrote: "Here's a "Top 5" of books censored in France:https://www.senscritique.com/liste/to....."
An interesting list, though of the five Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' and the book on suicide lie outside the current discussion about writing on sexual matters - AFAIK, anyway.
I wonder about de Sade, as surely he only gained his notoriety because his book was published...? Otherwise, why would anyone have heard about him? Or is there a different explanation? (I haven't read it, BTW - or seen the film.)
Bill wrote: "I assume that any English fiction that had scenes explicitly depicting sexuality or reproduction would have met with the same suppression as pornography..."The 'cause célèbre' of my schooldays was when Penguin Books were prosecuted for obscenity by publishing D H Lawrence's 'Lady Chatterley's Lover'. We sat around at break reading the unbelievable (to us) sexy bits. And who can forget what the judge said at the trial - was it a novel 'you would even wish your wife or servants to read'. So that attitude was certainly still around in the 1960s.
And thanks to Gpfr for the info on French censorship. I didn't know Zola's works appeared like Dickens's in magazines before they were published, nor that they were 'pre-censored' there. I doubt if Dickens's instalments were changed or abridged in any way, especially since some appeared in magazines he himself owned.
This put me in mind of those Readers Digest 'Condensed Books'. Any fans?
Mod
The 'cause célèbre' of my schooldays was when Penguin Books were prosecuted for obscenity by publishing D H Lawrence's 'Lady Chatterley's Lover'. We sat around at break reading the unbelievable (to us) sexy bits. ..."
Absolutely! 1960 ...
I'm not sure anyone was fooled by the brown paper covers hiding the book :)
Logger24 wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "There was certainly tacit censorship by publishers ."But there's a difference between Victorian erotica and realism in novels that aim to ..."
i think Maupassant and Huysmans were less graphic than Zola but are good companion pieces, forming a vision of France from the 1850s to 1900.
i found France much more sexually liberally and direct as late as 1987, on a french exchange aged 11. Wall to wall female nudity on tv and adverts, an acceptance of Pigalle on the french monopoly board and what it meant for all the children of the family i stayed with. i came from a liberal family, who were open about things like that but France seemed far more open, for an 11yo kid. Ofc i wasnt up to anything sexual but it influenced my life in a feeling this was all very natural and normal
Mod
I'd like to know what TV you were watching, especially aged 11!
And I absolutely don't remember this wall to wall female nudity either on TV or for ad's.
I do remember creating a stir with 2 friends on our first visit to Paris in 1967, wearing very mini-skirts.
In the early days, having imbibed all the notions about la vie bohème, I was disappointed by how unlike the Paris I found was to that.
Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i found France much more sexually liberally and direct as late as 1987, on a french exchange aged 11. Wall to wall female nudity on tv and adverts,..."I
I'd like to know what TV you were watching, especially aged 11!..."
It'll take me a while to think of all the things that struck me about France in those days, but here's something I posted in the other place a month or two back:
A Book of Voyages, edited by Patrick O'Brian, originally published in 1947, before his magnum opus was written. This is extracts taken from travel books written in the 17th and 18th centuries, ....
Philip Thicknesse gave advice to travellers in France in the mid-1700s, including the following (it takes quite a bit for me to copy stuff like this out, but I think it's worth it):
"Jealousy is scarce known in France. By the time the first child is born an indifference generally takes place : the husband and wife have their separate acquaintance, and pursue their separate amusements, undisturbed by domestic squabbles. When they meet in the evening, it is with perfect good humour and, in general, perfect good breeding. When an English wife plays truant, she soon becomes abandoned: it is not so with the French; they preserve appearances and proper decorum, because they are seldom attached to any particular man."
Mod
I'd like to know what TV you we..."
I remember being struck — & even slightly shocked — years ago by a poster in the métro for Dim (underwear, tights etc.) A pair of stockinged legs coming out from a cluster of leaves, with a slogan on the lines of "il y a des buissons plus ardents que d'autres". The 'buisson ardent' is the biblical burning bush, also a plant ...
Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i found France much more sexually liberally and direct as late as 1987, on a french exchange aged 11. Wall to wall female nudity on tv and adverts,..."I'd like to know what TV you we..."
the nudity was tasteful not porn but 100% different to the UK . i had the feeling of a country at ease with these things, plus childhood holidays in corsica with topless women on every beach and topless circus performers continued my education into french approachs to sexuality and the female body
i found the same all over Europe at an older age too into late teens and early 20s, only the UK remained relatively repressed and prudish.
Going back to Zola, when i read his novels in my 20s , i wasnt shocked or suprised, i felt this was the cultural France i knew, albeit 100 years earlier
FrancesBurgundy wrote: "The 'cause célèbre' of my schooldays was when Penguin Books were prosecuted for obscenity by publishing D H Lawrence's 'Lady Chatterley's Lover'. We sat around at break reading the unbelievable (to us) sexy bits..."Ah, yes... I remember the circulation of this book - found hidden by one of us schoolboys - and only reading the 'well thumbed pages'! (It's not a bad book, actually, though DH did go a bit OTT in one of his novels about 'men in red waistcoats' marching about, which had a vaguely fascistic feel to it... )
I do remember following the trial avidly at the time. Naturally, I still wouldn't allow my servants to read it! ;-)
FrancesBurgundy wrote: " Philip Thicknesse gave advice to travellers in France in the mid-1700s..."I assume this description applies to the behaviour of the 'very well off', who seem always to assume that normal societal norms don't apply to them, and that their actions have no consequences. Plus ça change...
Mod
Talk about direct. On a French exchange at age 14, in 1963, I was asked by my Parisian counterpart if I was still a virgin.
FrancesBurgundy wrote: "Bill wrote: "I assume that any English fiction that had scenes explicitly depicting sexuality or reproduction would have met with the same suppression as pornography..."The 'cause célèbre' of my ..."
The judge might still have had servants in the 1960s but I doubt if most other people did!
Logger24 wrote: "AB76 wrote: "...i found France much more sexually liberally and direct as late as 1987, on a french exchange aged 11..."Talk about direct. On a French exchange at age 14, in 1963, I was asked by ..."
i do remember a disco, where the girls lined up on one wall, the boys on the other (we were all 11-13) and the girls picked the boys to dance with. At only 11 i had lovely tall 13yo blonde french girl picking me to dance with.....but it was all very chaste
Mod
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Ersatz TLS
Books mentioned in this topic
Fanny Hill (other topics)The Way of a Man with a Maid (other topics)
The Autobiography of a Flea (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
The Murderer (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
J.D. Vance (other topics)J.D. Vance (other topics)
Jonathan Blitzer (other topics)
Scarlet – Forgot about Mona too. She does sound like a Nin stand-in.
GP – But at least you read them in the right place. The Parisian locale does give some colour to the Journal – and was one of the reasons for my youthful enthusiasm for Miller.