Ersatz TLS discussion
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What are we reading? 12/08/2024
Gpfr wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Les chemins intimes: I'd be intrigued to read it but unfortunately clicking on the link brought a '404 error - page not found' response!..."Here's a new link — I think somethi..."
Thanks... Désérable is the only one I've read, but I think I'll get it to sample the others - and anyway, madame will probably be interested.
Speaking of French writers... and to show how serendipity works in practice - the other day we watched the film 'Lacombe, Lucien' directed by Louis Malle - which I knew - but co-written by Patrick Modiano - which I didn't. So, I asked madame if she liked Modiano. "He's one of my favourite authors!" she said - while expressing some doubt as to whether he'd be to my taste. (I'll give him a try, for sure.) Continuing the conversation, I mentioned that on reading Modiano's Wikipedia entry, I discovered that he has a fascinating biography, and that he was taught by Raymond Queneau - a friend of his mother's, who was a groomsman at his wedding (the other was André Malraux!).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick...
I also became aware probably for the first time that the film 'Zazie dans le métro' was based on a novel - by Queneau. (I have never seen the film, but the title stuck in my memory.) Madame kindly went to dig out her UK-based Modianos, and returned with two - as well as 'Zazie', which sounds like great fun. So I'll start with that one!
Tam wrote: "Since yesterday I have come down with shivering, painful stomach, almost a failed desire to vomit, lots of phlegm, headache a bit. I feel like crap!... The sproglet and family are due to come over ..."I had something similar - it lasted three days - but it wasn't COVID. Get well soon!
giveusaclue wrote: "I started getting phantom smells. They particularly happened if I bent my head down. It was like rotten meat or eggs or burning."You don't have a dog, by any chance? ;-)
Back to books...Belshazzar's Daughter by Barbara Nadel.
I was moved to read this after watching the TV series 'The Turkish Detective', which is 'inspired by' rather than based on the book.
It's not bad... the writing is decent enough, there are some interesting characters, but it could have been better. There seems to be a lot of content which doesn't really advance the plot much, and when we do get to the ending it is flat-out bonkers. I also could have done without the sado-maso sex indulged in by a young woman, and also the visit to a seer by the 'tec - I just don't abide anything to do with the supernatural etc. Neither did I get a 'feel' for Istanbul despite descriptions of several areas - I've never visited, which maybe didn't help. Others have managed better, though, on cities I've never seen.
Overall, I'm left with the feeling that I am unlikely to read another... definitely not a series I'll follow avidly, but not quite an automatic discard. Maybe I'll try a second if I get stuck for a bit of light reading after some disappointments - it does happen.
Mod
Zazie is a treat, and it led me to read some others by Queneau. There he was, at the peak of the French literary establishment, ushering classic texts through the press, and his private pleasure was to write slangy dingbat stories.
Modiano was certainly not to my taste. I read his Occupation Trilogy with great expectations and found it a struggle throughout.
Logger24 wrote: "Zazie is a treat, and it led me to read some others by Queneau. There he was, at the peak of the French literary establishment, ushering classic texts through the press, and his private pleasure was to write slangy dingbat stories."Do all of Queneau's novels follow OuLiPo restraints?
That association has led me to avoid him in the past: another example of my giving an NYRB book a pass at a book sale.
scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Sorry you have been under the weather, take it easy. I hope your imminent trip to France is faster and less dramatic that your one earlier this year!"Well, thanks for that... ..."
I should have kept quiet! Do hope the knee is able to be sorted quickly. The joys of old age!
Mod
Well, I managed to read and enjoy Queneau before ever hearing of OuLiPo. Ones I can recommend beyond Zazie dans le métro are Le chiendent and Pierrot mon ami. None of them seemed to me restrained, rather free in fact, completely off beat. Plus for dipping into, because not a story, Exercices de style which may be more what you're thinking of. I can’t say what the translations are like.
Mod
Logger24 wrote: "Ones I can recommend beyond Zazie dans le métro are Le chiendent and Pierrot mon ami. None of them seemed to me restrained, rather free in fact, completely off beat. Plus for dipping into, because not a story, Exercices de style which may be more what you're thinking of. I can’t say what the translations are like."I knew little about Queneau - I hadn't realized that he was in his late 50s when he founded OuLiPo. All the books you mention preceded that, though Zazie by only a year. You also read them in the original language, which I think makes a difference, especially with style-conscious writers.
Mod
He openly invites comparison with Don Juan. There are similarly sober passages. Writing in mid-1936, but it could as well be today, he talks of ogres and dragons who promise to set up law and order. An ogre will not fail “In every age to rear up to defend / Each dying force of history to the end.”
The last section is interestingly biographical, describing his boyhood without a father, gone during the War, then his time in college, and afterwards his travelling and teaching.
As a poem, it’s not completely successful. Byron, with all his jesting, remained fluent. Auden feels choppy, and his decision to go with seven-line stanzas rhyming ABABBCC, instead of ottava rima, means that there are always two concluding couplets which, to my sense, often clash. Still, it must be the only poem ever to use the word “logomachy”. This is in reference to I.A. Richards (who is rhymed with “Pritchard’s”). Per SOED, logomachy is a contention over words.
Logger24 wrote: "Zazie is a treat, and it led me to read some others by Queneau...Modiano was certainly not to my taste. I read his Occupation Trilogy with great expectations and found it a struggle throughout..."
Thanks for that.
FWIW, madame told me that perhaps Modiano would prove "too literary" for my taste, which no doubt reflects her background in the study of French and English - including, of course, literary theories - and mine as a Physics graduate! We'll see. I am a bit doubtful, but who knows?
Bill wrote: "Do all of Queneau's novels follow OuLiPo restraints?That association has led me to avoid him in the past..."
I know nothing about Queneau except that he's a "name", and didn't even know that he was associated with OuLiPo until your comment... That sounds like a somewhat crazy constraint, BTW...
Anyway, the reason I decided it would be the first of these books in French that I'd tackle is down to the excerpt on the back cover, which made me laugh...
- Zazie, déclare Gabriel en prenant un air majestueux trouvé sans peine dans son répertoire, si ça te plait de voir vraiment les Invalides et le tombeau véritable du vrai Napoléon, je t'y conduirai.
- Napoléon, mon cul, réplique Zazie. Il m'intéresse pas du tout, cet enflé, avec son chapeau à la con.
- Qu'est-ce qui t'intéresse alors?
Zazie répond pas.
- Oui, did Charles avec une gentillesse inattendue, qu'est-ce qui t'intéresse?
- Le métro.
Assuming that accurately reflects the tone of the book, I should enjoy it.
(I have not provided a rough translation here, as I expect you can understand the French easily enough - let me know, if not.)
Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "The Europeans? Washington Square? The Portrait of a Lady?"the first and last yes..."
Ah, if you don't like The Portrait of a Lady, I'm not sure there's any hope ..."
i aim to re-read it at some point, maybe Henry James will be more enjoyable in middle age!!
Mod
Speaking of Ann Patchett, I sometimes look at the Instagram account of her bookshop, Parnassus books, and I saw yesterday she's bringing out an annotated (& what seems to me very expensive) version of Bel Canto, which first came out in 2001.
She says she hadn't read it again since then and on re-reading she found "a lot of it was great and I was really proud of myself and a lot of it was appallingly bad and I was dismally disappointed in myself."
The annotated edition will have her handwritten notes + brackets round words she would now take out.
What do you think of this idea? Would you buy such a version of a book you'd read and liked? Or at least be interested to see it?
Gpfr wrote: "I posted this over on WWR, but there might be thoughts on the subject here too :)Speaking of Ann Patchett, I sometimes look at the Instagram account of her bookshop, Parnassus books, and I saw ye..."
I think that is one for the purists of dedicated fandom. I would find it most annoying to read a text whilst having words edited incompletely by bracketing. It would disrupt the flow of understanding and make for a very awkward reading experience. Far better to have brought out a new revised edition, maybe with a short preface telling the reader what she has done and why. They can be left to make up their own minds...
Mod
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/docs/Commu...
It was pretty interesting – a load of authors I had never heard of, Winston Churchill topping the list 5 times 1901-1913, and John Grisham top six years in a row in the 1990s with six different titles. It seems to start off English and then turn heavily American.
Jeffrey Farnol was top in 1911, not a name I knew until I found a reference to him in some writing by my father. As a boy he liked to look at the books his mother got from the library, and Farnol was one of them. So I might try him to see what appealed in the family.
Mod
I think that is one for the purists of dedicated fandom. I would find it most annoying to read a text whilst having words edited incompletely by bracketing."
Oh, yes, definitely for fans. Remember there are not only the brackets but also the handwritten notes pointing out what's good or bad.
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Mod
I didn't count, but I haven't read too many of them.
I had heard of Jeffrey Farnol, but don't think I've ever read any. Interestingly & surprisingly, he was number 1 in 1911 and in 1961 with the same book.
finished The Pursued by CS Forester, brilliant, a true british noir-esque classic
Mod
On order from the library.
Logger24 wrote: "Jeffrey Farnol was top in 1911, not a name I knew until I found a reference to him in some writing by my father. "I've seen Farnol referred to as the originator of the Regency Romance.
Mod
Ooh, I didn't notice that. Often a sign of a movie or a TV adaptation, but I don't see any reference to that. But, I do see it is Number 24 in Barbara Cartland's Library of Love. Perhaps that was the catalyst.
Gpfr wrote: "The annotated edition will have her handwritten notes + brackets round words she would now take out.What do you think of this idea? Would you buy such a version of a book you'd read and liked? Or at least be interested to see it?"
Sounds like she's skipped over a revised edition, which is what most authors would likely produce, and gone right for a variorum edition with critical notes. Perhaps she's afraid, especially given the current state of liberal arts, that it's something future scholars will never get around to doing.
I've got a few books in both original and revised versions (The Broken Sword, The Magus), but found that, having read one of the versions, I haven't been keen to get to the original or revision, though I liked both books pretty well on first reading.
scarletnoir wrote: "I know nothing about Queneau except that he's a "name", and didn't even know that he was associated with OuLiPo until your comment... That sounds like a somewhat crazy constraint, BTW..."Are you referring to my resistance to reading OuLiPo works?
At one time I tried Alphabetical Africa and didn't get far with that. A few years ago I was really looking forward to reading Mr Beethoven, which sounded like it was right in my sweet spot, especially as I have liked Paul Griffiths' writing on music. It turned out to be written using OuLiPo restraints (all words of Beethoven were taken from historical sources, even though the book is a fantasy positing that Beethoven lived beyond 1827 and travelled to America for a commission). I don't know whether its OuLiPo connections were responsible, but it was the worst novel I've read since I made the mistake of picking up Stieg Larrson.
Based on the examples I've seen, I think that in such works I expect the self-imposed restrictions of OuLiPo tend to override other literary imperatives such as characterization, plotting, and setting. It reverses the order in Conan Doyle's formula for good writing: “The first requisite is to be intelligible. The second is to be interesting. The third is to be clever.”
Are there OuLiPo works you've enjoyed?
(My French was inadequate to your quotation, but Google Translate came to the rescue.)
Logger24 wrote: "AB76 wrote: "finished The Pursued by CS Forester, brilliant, a true british noir-esque classic"On order from the library."
enjoy!
My next read is a West Indian novel from 1978 The Murderer by Roy Heath set in Guyana. I found it by the best method for any booklover, browsing in my local Waterstones.
Dont think anyone replied to my post about whether they read the TLS (Times Literary Supplement)I've been subscribing since March and it beats the NYRB and LRB in 2024 for variety and interest, plus the number of books its led me to
I love the NYRB and have been a subscriber since 2017 but the issues are all getting shorter but not cheaper and the summer scarcity(august-Sept) is always a shame
The LRB has been a favourite at times, i started subbing in 2014 i think but its even worse than the LRB for page length and its summer scarcity is always worse as they dont even print a double issue when in summer(august_Sept)
I have subbed to the New Statesman on and off but always grow rather tired of wall to wall politics, n+1 was interesting but published way too much fiction
AB76 wrote: "I have subbed to the New Statesman on and off but always grow rather tired of wall to wall politics, n+1 was interesting but published way too much fiction"I don't subscribe or even regularly see any non-US publications. I occasionally see online references to TLS and LRB articles that sound interesting but are usually paywalled, and I receive regular mailings from at least one of these publications (I forget which, maybe both) to subscribe. I always figure that there will be a fair amount of UK-centric content that won't interest me.
I agree with what you say about fiction. For whatever reason, I just resist reading stories that appear in periodicals.
I subscribe to The New Yorker, and I think that the only story I read in its entirety from the magazine was "Cat Person", which I felt I had to read from the widespread discussion it engendered (kind of like when I felt I had to see Fatal Attraction). I tried reading a Jonathan Franzen story in the magazine once (it was set in East Germany I remember) but had to give up on it.
Mod
I've been subscribing since March and it beats the NYRB and LRB in 2024 for variety and interest, p..."
The only thing in English I subscribe to is Slightly Foxed. I read things online from the LRB from time to time — also collected in book form, by Jenny Diski and Hilary Mantel.
we subscribe to the LRB, which I, on average, only find around 20% of interest and Prospect which can go from the quite dull to quite interesting very randomly. The most interesting article in the LRB was on the Israeli Mossad's newish techniques, this was pre Oct. 7th invasion of Gaza, had been developing a policy of not using doors when raiding Palestinian 'suspects' houses, but going through the walls instead, using super architectural 'War' engineering techniques. The description of a Palestinian family eating their dinner, when a posse of Israeli super-troopers spring through their kitchen wall was quite memorable...
Tam wrote: "we subscribe to the LRB, which I, on average, only find around 20% of interest and Prospect which can go from the quite dull to quite interesting very randomly. The most interesting article in the ..."reminds me of a technique i think the canadian army used in the D-Day invasion or later, when they would drive tanks through the walls of houses to eliminate german snipers and troops within
AB76 wrote: "reminds me of a technique i think the canadian army used in the D-Day invasion or later"And I'm rather chagrined to say that the first thing it reminded me of was ...
For gpfrI have just met Alison North and presume that Miles is Jackson Lamb, who has just appeared too.
I don't recall that any of our British posters have called attention to The Queen's Reading Room, mentioned in Michael Dirda's latest column because of Her Majesty's latest selection, Mapp and Lucia.https://thequeensreadingroom.co.uk/bo...
Tam wrote: "we subscribe to the LRB, which I, on average, only find around 20% of interest and Prospect which can go from the quite dull to quite interesting very randomly. The most interesting article in the ..."i subbed to Prospect for a while but i found like The Economist that it becomes very themed towards one way of looking at life. Literary journals are a lot more nuanced i think, though n+1 was easily the "wokest" i read
While the foul Murdoch does own the TLS, i havent found anything remotely right wing in content so far, though some of the right wing journalisti have written reviews and made me catch my breath a few times.
I am not sure if anyone else feels this but i am appalled at how much oxygen the right wing press and brexit mob get on the BBC. Balance is great but respected proper left wing thinkers and journalists are becoming a rarity on Question Time or other opinion shows. If you are a person of colour you have a better chance and that is admirable and increases diversity but i find the real challenging left wing thinkers or commentators are rarely seen. (worst of all is libertarian dullards grouped around Claire Fox, whining and howling about very little)
Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "reminds me of a technique i think the canadian army used in the D-Day invasion or later"And I'm rather chagrined to say that the first thing it reminded me of was ...
"
brilliant!
AB76 wrote: "Tam wrote: "we subscribe to the LRB, which I, on average, only find around 20% of interest and Prospect which can go from the quite dull to quite interesting very randomly. The most interesting art..."I do agree with that. I pay an annual sub to the Guardian, to avoid adverts and to support it, but the rare time I buy a paper its the Times, as the literary and arts coverage is so much better, and with a wider range of views. Funny that so many ex-Guardian writers are now writing for the Times, and other right-wing newspapers! I find it hard to forgive those at the Guardian for hounding out the likes of Suzanne Moore, who found a home at the Telegraph, and other papers I think, because she had a different point of view to the Guardians official line, on some issues! That's the trouble with quite a lot of the left, and why they get themselves in to so much trouble by splitting into fractious groups, I guess...
Mod
I have just met Alison North and presume that Miles is Jackson Lamb, who has just appeared too."
Yes :)
Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Tam wrote: "we subscribe to the LRB, which I, on average, only find around 20% of interest and Prospect which can go from the quite dull to quite interesting very randomly. The most in..."the G has become a silo of woke sadly, nothing wrong with woke but there are different views to be considered. The G i started reading in 1992 was a very different and more impressive beast but i still love the G, warts and all
Mod
!!!!!
Mod
Gpfr wrote: "Raining this morning — not torrential stormy downpours but useful steady rain."Lovely morning here, but the sun has hidden itself at the moment.
Reading The Secret Hours I have a bit of a feeling, the way the book is written, that Mr Herron might be the sort of person who never says one word when 20 will do, as I am finding the book a little over wordy to be honest.
Gpfr wrote: "Raining this morning — not torrential stormy downpours but useful steady rain."breezy and suny, very pleasent here. 22c perfect summer weather, helped my dad chop some wood up(which the kids helped carry down from the fields in July)
Logger24 wrote: "Sunday Times best seller list of the last 50 years – Not being a subscriber, I couldn’t access it, so I looked around on line and found several lists on a similar theme, including an ABE UK list of..."Interesting... perhaps not surprisingly, the bestsellers are not generally what you'd consider examples of 'literary' fiction. I haven't read many of the books, and of those I have the only one I'd rate as a 'classic' (as well as a bestseller) is All Quiet on the Western Front.
Gpfr wrote: "@scarletnoirHave you seen there's a new Garry Disher? Sanctuary"
Yes, thanks - I saw it somewhere - I thought it was listed in a Guardian piece, but it isn't! Here is that article:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/art...
I have enjoyed one series of Disher's books but was less impressed by another... this one is a stand-alone so I'm not sure whether to try it.
For those who like her books (I don't, and am frankly baffled by her popularity and reputation), the Guardian piece mentions a new Kate Atkinson/Jackson Brodie story.
Bill wrote: "I've got a few books in both original and revised versions (The Broken Sword, The Magus), but found that, having read one of the versions, I haven't been keen to get to the original or revision, though I liked both books pretty well on first reading."Reading one version of The Magus once was quite enough for me! ;-)
Only fair to add that I did quite like a couple of Fowles's other books, but not that one.
Bill wrote: "Are you referring to my resistance to reading OuLiPo works?.."Hahaha!
I'm sorry, Bill - my fault. No - I meant that the artificial constraints those tempted to indulge in OuLiPo sounded a bit bonkers to me, a bit like someone trying to play football with both legs tied together. (There may have been some bizarre justification for this, but I haven't read enough about it to know what it might have been.)
I was thinking specifically of someone who apparently wrote a whole book without using the letter 'i' iirc - just nuts, IMO. Why bother?
Once again - apologies for not being clearer.
AB76 wrote: "Dont think anyone replied to my post about whether they read the TLS (Times Literary Supplement).."I don't for the simple reason that I already buy and read more than enough books - if I subscribed to those magazines I'd probably end up with far more unread books on the TBR pile. However, a Guardian cartoonist has proposed a solution:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/pic...
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I've read everything! I'm a fan and not the only one. [book:Exce..."
Yes - I'd forgotten, but I liked 'A Glass of Blessings' too, iirc... but that last one rather put me off.