I Say No - Week 5

[Deborah, Moderator]

I have some family obligations to take care of. I will post everything tomorrow, my apologies for being late. The thread is open if you wish to start the discussion. Thank you for your patience

[Lori, Moderator]

One weird question I have is whether James Brown was the murderer's intended victim. What if Mirabel was not only not the murderer, but the intended victim? He's pretty shady and it wouldn't surprise me if he's made some enemies. What if someone entered the room, and it was dark, and they killed the wrong man? And Mirabel fled, of course, because he knows he has enemies and he looks like a suspect and he's a coward anyway. I doubt this is what happened, but just something I was wondering. I'm definitely liking Mirabel less and less as the story goes on, and liking Alban more.

[Trev]

Lori wrote: " I'm definitely liking Mirabel less and less as the story goes on, and liking Alban more.."

I’m worried, as we get to know more about both Francine and Mirabel, that they could collaborate in some way to form an evil partnership. Mirabel, all sweetness and light, but ready to squeeze the life and respectability of any woman he meets and heartless Francine practising the dark arts. Her treatment of Mrs. Ellmother was both cruel and despicable.

Francine's increasing jealousy of Emily, because of Mirabel, is very concerning. If Mirabel really is going to leave Emily alone because she has no money, then that could be a reprieve.

How does the ‘gentle preacher’ get away with all that groping? Only Emily has had the courage to prevent his snake -like arms wrapping round her body. Shouldn’t someone intervene or at least show their disgust?

If Mirabel does return when Alban has arrived and tries it on again with Emily, I am sure he will intervene. At least both Cecelia and Emily realise that whilst Mirabel might be a charmer, he is not husband material. Maybe it is because of those arms.

[Frances, Moderator]

Trev wrote: "How does the ‘gentle preacher’ get away with all that groping? Only Emily has had the courage to prevent his snake -like arms wrapping round her body. Shouldn’t someone intervene or at least show their disgust?"

Unfortunately we are all too familiar with respectable men in positions of authority getting license to abuse others under cover of their place in society. It is unclear whether Mirabel goes beyond this cuddling-which seems not to bother the other young ladies-but at this point he seems to be doing it with a pecuniary motive-finding a wealthy wife-and fingers crossed he will follow through on his intention to remove himself from the temptation to propose to Emily. While other Victorian novelists (Dickens for one) have written of women being seduced by men with no intention of marrying them, I can't think of any instance where it would involve the heroine and a gentlewoman (Lydia Bennett isn't technically in a Victorian novel, and isn't the heroine, and Tess is not a gentlewoman)-can anyone think of one?

I am certainly curious to know what Miss Jethro knows, and why she is so adamant on keeping them apart. Is it that she suspects Mirabel killed Emily's father? Or is there something else lurking in the past?

I'm also curious about what the other young ladies think of Francine at this point-she certainly doesn't seem likeable-did Cynthia invite her as she thought she was Emily's friend, and now Emily is kind to her thinking she is Cynthia's guest? I did enjoy the descriptions of the different young ladies visiting-I do like that Collins gives them a backstory as well-they're not just extras as dancing partners.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Once again thank you for your patience. Since we’ve already have a few questions on this thread, I’m going to use those for discussion.

Was the man who was murdered the intended victim? What was mirabel’s role in the murder?

What is the threat of mirabel? Of Francine?

How is Miss Jethro involved?

And one from me - do you think Collins will be able to connect everything to give us answers?

[Deborah, Moderator]

Personally mirabel and his “cuddling” is ver creepy. Francine also seems to be progressing more from just self service to more evil. So many loose ends still.

[Lori, Moderator]

From Miss Jethro's tone, I don't think she suspects Mirabel of murder (she doesn't seem to think he's dangerous, I mean), but she knows that he knows something and doesn't want him to let something slip in front of Emily. But then, what does he know and why does Miss Jethro care? Is she saying this out of care for Emily (unlikely since she doesn't know her well) or because Mirabel knows something about Miss Jethro, or possibly Emily's father, that she doesn't want repeated?

I also liked the descriptions of the others at Cecelia's house. The three identical dancing men brought to mind a weird recollection from the book Bunny by Mona Awad...

[Deborah, Moderator]

What do you think is Collins’ opinion on women?

[Trev]

Deborah wrote: "Personally mirabel and his “cuddling” is ver creepy. Francine also seems to be progressing more from just self service to more evil. So many loose ends still."

My experience of Victorian novels has informed me that convention dictated that women’s waists were out of bounds to all men except husbands, fathers, brothers, possibly close cousins…..and fiancé’s.

Maybe an avuncular type priest or other senior member of the church might have been brought in to comfort a woman in distress on an occasional, possibly tragic occasion. Is Wilkie Collins the first author to expose a member of the ‘wandering hands’ (or in this instance arms) fraternity? Emily’s refusal to be handled was an indication to me that his behaviour was inappropriate whatever the other admirers might think.

As for Frances’ question about seducers of gentlewomen heroines, only two come to mind immediately and neither of them can be classed as ‘Victorian.’ The first one is Clarissa, or, The History of a Young Lady which is from a different era. The second one is the attempted seduction of (spoiler if you have not read War and Peace)(view spoiler)[Countess ‘Natasha’ Rostova by Prince Anatole Kuragin (hide spoiler)] and that happens thousands of miles away in Russia.

[Nancy]

My one observation is that Wilkie Collins chose to write the chapter about the dance in present tense, and it is the only chapter so far in which he has done so. I'm sure this was a deliberate choice on his part, but why? It certainly lends an air of immediacy to the writing, but why was this so important at this time?