Beta Reader Group discussion
Covers, Blurbs, 1st Line, Query
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Query feedback on a huge wordcount SF
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Vast improvement because it's getting far more concrete and dramatic.Blurb Paras 1&2 are strong. You've got characters, you've got the love story, you've integrated their world into the conflict. Yay!
Paras 3&4 lose me and I'm not sure how necessary they are. I think they could be replaced by something that states the stakes in a very strong way.
I would say the key here is to demonstrate your power and discipline and craftsmanship as an author... not overwhelm with details.
I'd move the intro to the bottom.
If your synopsis and sample pages are super strong, maybe an agent knowledgeable about epic fantasy might take a chance. But 350k might be a real barrier. Pitching outside standards is a big risk and the question is why would anyone take that risk?
It may be true that the real story happens across your 350k words... but it might also be true that you need to shrink that down considerably by looking at prose, redundancies, confusing subplots or unneeded scenes and characters etc. based on your core theme.
Based on reading your many query drafts, my feeling is that's probably the case. I assume an agent will too.
I can't believe I cut my 145k mystery down to 91k and it is so much better. With every draft... even the seventh, I'm finding fat to cut and themes to strengthen.
The barrier is truly serious, no? Even if this would be considered a traditional trilogy in the publishing world of even 10 years ago, it seems to be insurmountable now.I've been re-working this for 6 years. Re-written many times, trimming the fat by even a third from what it is now. The fact is, I've been focusing so much on the tale itself and not the industry wishes, that it's extremely far from whatever the industry wants.
And because I'm a massive introvert, I'm no good at selling my body at bars.
Cutting more at this point is a total loss, but the story is good. Why do I say so? I've read 6k novels, love everything about the genre, and am serious about pushing the envelope. I followed one piece of advice from uncle Stevie -- the story is as long as it is. And now, I just want to give everyone the chance to enjoy it.
I even re-wrote enormous passages to make the splits valid and natural, either 1-7 novellas, 1-3 novels, or a single piece.
I can even just say what it is in a single line: "Man versus Nature, writ large, high-tech, and with a massive SFnal body that keeps questioning human nature, justice, and love, while always bucking expectations."
And yeah, I know, it's one thing to say it, and another to prove it -- and so I'm back at the weirdest-ass issue of enticing readers to see for themselves.
A story is itself. The publishing industry doesn't care, however. I'm poor, so it's not like I can do the self-publishing, marketing, myself. I write stories.
That being said, as a thank you for your many replies, I'd be more than happy to read your stuff, Marvin. It's only fair and right. You've been good to me. Thank you.
I'd be grateful for your take, when my stuff is ready.I did a quick search and found this Reddit link. If your work is truly solid at 350k, maybe you want to focus on the niche players in that area? ie. Who is publishing them? How do you get their attention? How open are they to a first time author in this space?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comm...#
You're in charge of your own writing career. Maybe you need to find your tribe?
If you want, I can give a quick take on your first two chapters. I'm not a fantasy guy but there it is. Send or link to [myname].novelist@gmail.com
I found a template for beta reading evals that I'm going to try using.
Dear Bradley, I don’t think anyone can say, it won’t happen. Unexpected things happen in publishing all the time. But here’s the thing, the query process is already stacked against you, so why defy industry standards and reduce your chances even more? Many first time authors are rejected 30, 50, 100 times before they get a deal. Can you find X2 or X5 that number to even send your query to?
Breaking it up is the way to go, but i don’t think there will be much interest in a novella. You need a book length, stand alone, with a satisfying ending. Of course, it can elude to the bigger issues tackled in the series, but the book arc needs a conclusion-not a cliffhanger or …to be continued.
The query itself is also way too long. The opening paragraph doesn’t tell me how to market your story. Okay, it’s SciFy, but then you launch into a list of descriptive jargon that sounds good, but doesn’t tell me what I need to know. Can I sell this?
Unfortunately, the length of the query and its wordiness, with phrases like, a vast, zero-g, networked, intelligent, jungle, give some indication of why you have a huge word count.
Consider giving Staz and Ada one obstacle that can fill one book. Mention that the story has series potential, but leave out the overall word count. You will only scare off anyone who might be interested.
That’s my humble opinion. Best of luck with it.
Thank you. It is as I suspected. Fortunately, I did split them up already in 3 parts, 120-150k lengths already, as well as a 5 novella, two shorter novel split. I put the work in to split everything exactly for these marketing reasons.Here's the thing that gives me most pause. Everyone says I need to have a single plot-line for the query, but I literally took the time to weave in multiple plot lines that only seem impressive in context with the rest.
For example, a man-vs-nature story is simply about outside forces molding and transforming your MC, showcasing hope and despair. Now what if that story hit completely different genre beats per section, going from a SF romance, to a dramady in the second, to a full-out space opera in the third, to a sense-of-wonder adventure in the fourth, to an action genre in the fifth, to an all out fantasy (still SF) in the sixth, to a pure SF with huge scope in the seventh?
The whole story is chronological and takes place over 7 months.
How the hell could I get even THIS across in a query, or if I did split it up and queried only the first three genre beats as one novel, it still covers a wide, strange range : a meet-cute to a deadly space battle.
Neat, bite-sized chunks will change the entire flavor of the novel every time I focus on one, or another, or another. I can - and have - written over 60 queries and all of them make the novel sound completely different every time -- but that isn't because I am lacking a core or I don't know what it's about or that I haven't put enough time into it -- (I've re-written these about 7 times now, over the span of 6 years, and that isn't remarking on the other 6 years that I wrote tons of other things.)
Going by your comment about the vast zero-G networked intelligent jungle? It's not like I can remove it, for example. It's integral to the plot and setting, showing up in part 4 all the way to the end, being one of the biggest conflict sources and their salvation. The word count for this isn't the problem. I've already cut 30% of it, making it bare-bones as it is.
The only single obstacle that is true throughout everything is the survival angle. First it's personal, then it's relationship, then it's community, then it's all of mankind. That's the core obstacle. Saying it without mentioning the environment just makes it sound vague as hell, right?
What I'm really asking for is constructive advice -- if you have it. I've mostly been told I'm totally f***ed or I need to just give it away on royal road.
I'm just being real here -- if I truly believe in my work, shouldn't I keep fighting for it? Almost every commentator I've read elsewhere, be it writing books or reddit, just say trunk it, move on. But I've written 10 now, with an unfinished 110k on the way. I'm not outgoing. I only focus on the writing. When I go through my 4th querying process (coming up soon), I'm already massively discouraged despite how much faith I have in my writing. I've put it through the wringer so many times.
SELLING it, or myself, just seems so insurmountable. It's way beyond my comfort zone.
Sorry for rambling. And honestly, thank you for your feedback. I'll be working on a context-less query next, just focusing on the two characters for the 120k version, but it's like putting 1/5ths of the ingredients in the pressure and forgetting to put the lid on. lol
Hey BradleyI do feel your pain, believe me. I've gone through the grief cycle on every project... denial, anger, bargaining, depression... then acceptance. Eventually I have to practise the mantra of accepting reality.
Reality means different things. Maybe you have to work way harder and longer to sell your book. Maybe you have to improve your knowledge of craft... I didn't realize my weaknesses (despite this being my fifth novel) until I'd gone through the wringer on a thesis, peer-reviewed articles, and a dissertation. So much angst and rework!
I reread Madden's book on Revising Fiction cover to cover in June and it opened my eyes yet again. It's possible to do a lot of tiring reworking of material that is like moving deck chairs around the Titanic... but improving knowledge of craft helps immensely to tesse out what's important, what's effective.
Everything feels important. I'm not sure if that's part of creativity or perhaps the way some brains work. I was utterly convinced of the importance of everything until I was given sharp word count restrictions. Then after going through the grief cycle.... I learned a lot of humility.
Same with emptying a house after my first wife died. Or after my dad died. Everything feels important. But oh, the relief when it's gone!
I'm not a genius. I'm not going to redefine a genre. I'm not anybody special who defies all the conventions... I'm just another dude accepting reality :)
That's how it was for me.
Hey Bradley,As I alluded to in my first note, the agent and publisher want to know which shelf to put your book on. If the author can't label the genre and sub-genre, they aren't interested. The problem with a conflict that evolves is that it is going to be very difficult to find an audience. If a SciFi fan loves the beginning but it later morphs into a romance, they're going to feel cheated. It's a bait and switch.
You definitely need a thru-arch across a series, but the genre stays consistent, and the issues have to be in the same ballpark. Harry recovers the philosopher's stone, but the bad guy is still out there. We know he's coming back and that is what makes us want the second book.
I'm not sure where you are on your publishing journey, but I want to offer a word of warning. You say that selling it yourself seems insurmountable. Please understand that no one is going to sell your book for you. Publishers don't really do that anymore. I've met so many authors who finally find a publisher and don't sell any books. When I dig deeper, they have often paid someone to "publish" it. They've gotten their money up front and have no incentive to sell the book. Even the big five publishing companies will want to know what kind of social media presence a potential author has-because they expect the author to sell the book. So please do not pay a "publisher." Anyone who wants money is providing a set service and will not do more than agreed upon. If a pay-for-print publisher says they will market the book, it means they will list it on their website, and no one will ever see it.
*gets down from soapbox*
Everything feels important because you've put a lot into it. You have to decide on the one major thru-line of the arc and the one major story arc of the first book. It's tough, but you have to put aside everything else for now. Once you know these two things, you have to cut anything that doesn't drive the main story from a clinical, unemotional point of view. It may be that there are too many threads, so many that a reader-who hasn't put in the copious amounts of time you have-won't be able to keep up with them all.
Before you get out your knife, try writing a new trimmed-down outline for a single book. Then add in any sub-plots. These might be resolved by the end of this book, but some may be carried into the second book. The important thing is to ensure there is a satisfying ending-even if some small questions go unanswered. Then copy/paste pertinent scenes into a new doc. Only the scenes that serve the story. Scenes that don't fit might be useful later in the series. Only then can you go back and add in the easter eggs that will add backstory and hint at future events. Do this sparingly and only reveal information that makes sense when it is given. You can't randomly drop in information or exposition. Even these must serve the book's story arch in some way. The hardest part is to look at each scene with a clinical eye and without emotional attachments.
Hope this helps.
Thanks to both of you. A little kindness is doing me some enormous good.And yes to all the warnings about fraud and the industry. It's one of the worst things to me, the fact that fraud and the almost utter lack of support to the author has become the new norm. I'm in a position where I'm the worst-suited to market anything. It's just not my nature, no matter how many years I've put into it. So I spiral around in my head, looking for any kind of solution, only to be faced with the fact that there isn't any.
In a healthy field, let alone society, these should not be insurmountable challenges. I mean, wouldn't an agent and/or a full publisher enter into a win/win situation if a book is properly pushed -- together? But apparently that is a thing of the past, except for the .001%.
It's hard to stay hopeful. And to stay hopeful, focus and write -- only to later lift my eyes to see the carnage all around me.
As for picking threads, I went ahead and posted a new query that I worked on all morning, focusing only on a single one, really highlighting the characters, and keeping it all within a single normal novel length. I'm fairly proud of it, but I'm still expecting a sand-scouring.
Proof I haven't given up.
It's not that I don't think the core threads and themes aren't strong. I can easily spit them out at any time. It's the fact that I have multiple hooks that drives me crazy. Sure, someone could say I should split up all these threads and write 5 books out of 1, but that's the same as tearing apart a comfortable shirt because I wanted to keep all the colors separate. :)
I do outline. I actually trellis. I let the growing plants climb up. The character's choices are defined by their broad situation. I know what they want to accomplish and how damn hard it is to get there -- and make it happen, or fail, depending on the challenge. I did make a lot of failures at first, of course, but this is going on 15 years of roughly 2k-a-day writing, editing, and yes, even querying. I'm not exactly unfamiliar with the whole process, but I'm also overwhelmed by the need to be so social. I'm mostly so passive. *sigh*
Again, thank you both. It's a breath of fresh air compared to reddit.
I think you'll get a lot more comfortable being social and selling something when you've mastered what it is... when you can pitch it clearly and compellingly based on a strong story, character stakes, and a meaningful theme. When you can pitch it for a specific genre with a little twist to be enticing.Whether it's writing or job search, I think there's a lot of agony related to where we fit in, the costs of fitting in. Working from our priorities helps a lot. I think we can use our priorities to make tough decisions about cutting off options and focusing more clearly.
A little extra info first: this is the complete story. That being said, I've re-written it a lot and have even managed to split it up into 5 novellas followed by two standard novel lengths, AND I've managed to split it up into three longish novels, complete in themselves.
But reading all of them straight through is the real story, each beat building directly on the last.
My question is this: If this query is otherwise excellent, and I tell agents about my setup, for purely marketing purposes, do you think it might, against all odds, gain traction?
And... here's the actual query:
I’m excited to present “Virtual Graffiti”, a 350,000-word Science Fiction novel that takes us to the Earth after multiple technological and biological cataclysms, fusing a love story to a cyberpunk singularity and a high-tech kaiju adventure.
On a gargantuan space-station encircling the Earth (the Ring), a young hardcore hacker, Anastazja Kenostaphos (Staz), becomes infatuated with a virtual artist, Ada Stahl, a girl unable to integrate fully with the ubiquitous nanotech of the Noosphere. Her disability comes with the notoriety of being the only child out of millions to survive birth outside of Earth’s biome. As a toddler, she held all the hopes and the full despair of seventeen billion people, only to be considered a living failure.
Staz doesn’t care; her love turns into obsession when she uncovers dark political secrets and Ada’s intense idealism. It’s either a disaster or a love story for the generations as they invade each other’s minds, flitting between virtuals and reality, throwing all caution to the wind. They ignore ethics, politics, and even Ada’s nanotech corruption, vowing an unbreakable bond. Their bond is tested immediately when Ada’s vast, brilliant virtual is subverted and shut down. The two lovebirds sit on a powder keg when the Noosphere’s disenfranchised artists and hackers rally behind them. Uncovered connections between Ada’s parents and recent atrocities are soon overshadowed by past nightmares coming back to life: the Earth’s dieback and gene-engineering resurrection (Second Cryptocollapse), a war with city-sized Mad AIs that destroyed two continents (Dancing Cities), and humanity’s forced relocation into overcrowded reservations and the Ring.
Propaganda and bad optics follow their romance, sparking Noosphere-wide conspiracy theories and realpolitik grandstanding, leading to a revolution. Ada barely survives an attack on the Ring, but it is only when she performs a desperate deep-space artistic hat trick during a space battle, while the entire Noosphere watches, that she becomes the target of every political entities’ vast greed.
Staz sacrifices most of her consciousness to keep their connection alive, chasing Ada through virtual worlds, while Ada is physically spirited away with Special Forces to the outer half of the Ring’s biosphere, where a vast, zero-G, networked, intelligent jungle attempts to keep her safe. Desperate measures lead to further technological corruption, assassination attempts, insane negotiations, and an explosive, transformative confrontation that leaves both the Earth and the Ring in literal shambles.
Even so, love abides.
“Virtual Graffiti” will appeal to fans of expansive, high-tech science fiction akin to Adrian Tchaikovsky’s Lords of Uncreation and Christopher Paolini's To Sleep in a Sea of Stars.