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What are we reading? 15/07/2024
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Gpfr
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Jul 25, 2024 02:03PM
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I'm off to the family hacienda tommorow for 3 days of 5 neices-nephews, hopefully i'll get back in one piece..lol
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In themselves, they’re all interesting comments, but you’re right, GP, we should get back on track.
While in the UK I picked up a copy of Ma’am Darling, the biog of Princess Margaret by Craig Brown in 99 short chapters. Already it’s cracking me up, but whether I want to subject myself to an entire book of her unhappy, snappish, entitled mentality I’m not sure.
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"Tragedy" and "Comedy" seem rather broad terms for inclusion in this group. I'm not sure where the plots of most generic Romance novels would fit in here."
I rather agree. Where, for example, does Pride and Prejudice fit? Comedy might cover it, but that does seem bit inadequate.
I think Christopher Booker should also have found room for one other plot category: a stranger comes to town.
Gpfr wrote: "Everyone, I think it's time to call a halt to the US / Europe polemics and get back to books where we can disagree without bad feeling. CCC for one has said these comments sadden and have disappoin..."Think you are right G. Thanks.
Logger24 wrote: "I think Christopher Booker should also have found room for one other plot category: a stranger comes to town."Is Darcy the stranger coming to town?
Writers have come with these "basic plot" lists for some time. @AB76's post reminded me of Heinlein, whose basic plots are:
Boy-meets-Girl, the Little Tailor, and the Man Who Learned Better.
I guess I don't buy into this idea of a small number of basic plots. In many cases it seems like one has to prune away essential elements to uncover what may, in the end, really be beside the point in making the book what it is. For some reason, Pnin comes to mind in this regard.
Harlequin-style romances usually end in a marriage (I assume) so that might them comedies, according to some definitions (the ones that divide everything into only two broad categories, tragedy and comedy).I'm intrigued by the idea that there are only so many basic plots but I agree, when you start trying to pin them down it gets tricky. And I think many novels combine various kinds of story into one work, so there could be interrelationships difficult to untangle. I'm curious enough that I'll probably try Booker's Seven Basic Plots one of these days.
My reading of literary criticism and theory has been very sparse and haphazard but I do recall enjoying Northrop Frye's Anatomy of Criticism: Four Essays,in which he does try to define someof these terms - e.g. romance (not in the Harlequin-romance sense) vs epic, and so on.
Mod
I've started reading Harlem Shuffle. This is my 2nd Colson Whitehead book, after The Underground Railroad, and a very different one.We start off in Harlem in 1959, where Ray Carney has a store selling furniture. On the title page of the 1st section we read, "Carney was only slightly bent when it came to being crooked ..." He is indignant when his cousin Freddie tries to involve him as a fence in the robbery of the Hotel Theresa, but we quickly learn he's not quite as honest as he at first makes himself out to be.
Gpfr wrote: "Everyone, I think it's time to call a halt to the US / Europe polemics and get back to books where we can disagree without bad feeling. CCC for one has said these comments sadden and have disappoin..."Fair enough.
Mod
Yesterday featured cumulus clouds and a gentle breeze; a pleasure to read outdoors.
AB76 wrote: "
France on Trial is a delight to read, full of information, facts and the fascinating story of France between 1940-45.Jackson is a..."
I understand that Laval's trial, remarkably short for a capital case, deteriorated into a shouting match.
Gpfr wrote: "Everyone, I think it's time to call a halt to the US / Europe polemics and get back to books where we can disagree without bad feeling. CCC for one has said these comments sadden and have disappoin..."Absolutely agreed.
Gpfr wrote: "Cloudy and cooler this morning and unfortunately rain is forecast for this evening — opening ceremony of the Olympics ..."And vandalism on the railways!
Mod
And vandalism on the railways!"
Yep — I was late seeing that.
Mod
Is Darcy the stranger coming to town?"
Absolutely. Smoked me out. The full title of the category is: a mysterious stranger comes to town, stirs everyone up, and then (generally) leaves. Some other examples:
Great Expectations
The Rime of the Ancient Mariner
Dr Faustus
The Idiot
Silas Marner
The French Lieutenant’s Woman
Shane
One might also say:
The Gospels
I started reading 'Herodotus - The Histories' acquired from the church book exchange. I have given up after 6 pages or so. So many names!... and such awful attitudes. It's as if every Greek or Persian man of those particular times only had to think up a stupid idea in order to immediately act upon it. Women are abducted when ever they 'pop out to the shops', it seems, and local bigwigs keep a sort of national tally as to how many on each side get abducted as to deciding whether to go to war of not. My picture of the average chap of this era is a sort of cross between Donald Trump and Boris Johnson dressed up in their nifty chitons and pursuing their random thoughts on a global scale... I randomly read a few bits later on in the book. I feel quite knowledgable now about Egyptian embalming practises, especially of cats. If a woman was particularly beautiful, when she died, her embalming was put off for quite a few days, in order for her body to not to be sexually abused in the morgue! Euuuw! Enough... Back it goes to the church library. I think it was Logger here, who read it right through. I salute you!... You have a lot more patience than I have.
Paul wrote: "based upon my interaction with British people abroad, I would say that that is generally the impression that I have gotten, mistaken though it may be. Not, however British folk who have left the UK in order to live abroad, those that emigrate temporarily for work experience in the sciences..."This may be rather the point... you can't judge the British nation as a whole by what some lager louts get up to in Torremolinos (or wherever). Any more than you can judge people from the US by the very loud conversations they seem to go in for, wherever they are. (I know - it's a stereotype. Which are wrong, and sort of 'racist' - wouldn't you agree?)
It may also come as a surprise to you that Thatcher, far from being worshipped by 100% of the British people, was regarded as a hate figure by a very large proportion... and that when someone says 'Rejoice! Rejoice!' it isn't the sinking of the Belgrano they remember, but an event many years afterwards...
(All this from a scientist who lived and worked in France for 6 years.)
Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "What do you think of Harris, Bill - as someone who lives in the US?"I rather liked her in the early going in 2019, but her campaign couldn't gain any traction for reasons that..."
Thanks, Bill. I shall hope for a good outcome...
As for the Supreme Court - I'm not sure under what circumstances they might be able to subvert the election of President Harris - if she wins - but who knows what tricks may come into play?
Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "It lists the nine plots as follows, via the work of Christopher Booker:Overcoming the monster
Rags to Riches
Quest
Voyage and Return
Tragedy
Comedy
Rebirth
Rebellion Against the one
..."
"Tragedy" and "Comedy" seem rather broad terms for inclusion in this group. I'm not sure where the plots of most generic Romance novels would fit in here."
I'm sure I discussed this briefly recently, but if not here it must have been on the Guardian's WWR thread. Someone wrote that another person had come up with a list of 32 (or so) basic plots! These lists are gross oversimplifications, and appeal to the human tendency to fit things into boxes - but there is some value to analysis, all the same - so long as that analysis doesn't impose some sort of straitjacket.
scarletnoir wrote: "I'm sure I discussed this briefly recently, but if not here it must have been on the Guardian's WWR thread. Someone wrote that another person had come up with a list of 32 (or so) basic plots! These lists are gross oversimplifications, and appeal to the human tendency to fit things into boxes - but there is some value to analysis, all the same - so long as that analysis doesn't impose some sort of straitjacket. ."I think there have been a few serious efforts to analyse storytelling structurally and break it down to a few basic, recurring elements, but there's one that sounds somewhat less than scholarly that I'm curious about: William Wallace Cook's Plotto: The Master Book of All Plots. I've never seen a copy, but apparently Cook was an early 20th-C American dime-novel writer and meant this book as a kind of instruction manual or source book for fiction writers struggling to come up with a story. I wonder if anyone in recent years has tried actually using it see what emerges.
giveusaclue wrote: "We can acknowledge the past, but we surely can't alter it."Absolutely... and we should not make the gross assumption that everyone from a particular nation approves of that nation's past behaviour. I've had some German friends over the years. They weren't Nazis, nor did I hold them to account for Hitler's behaviour.
That's just common sense.
Berkley wrote: " I've never seen a copy, but apparently Cook was an early 20th-C American dime-novel writer and meant this book as a kind of instruction manual or source book for fiction writers struggling to come up with a story. "I think that I've usually seen the practice of listing basic plot types as part of "advice to would-be writers" rather than in literary criticism.
giveusaclue wrote: "Norman?"An interesting question, which reflects the complexity of history. I am anything but a historian so what follows may well be wrong, but a quick scan suggests that 'England' came into being sometime between 800-927. The norman conquest came later... Edward 1 (who conquered Wales) would have had French as his first language, but also spoke the current version of English. Amusingly,
By the 1290s, Edward I, himself a French-speaker, was warning his subjects that a French invasion of England might bring about the destruction of “the English language”, here presented as the very essence of Englishness.
Simpele questions often lead to complicated answers! And thanks for that - I didn't know most of that stuff before. I used, in part, this website:
https://www.historyextra.com/period/n...
(Worth pointing out that time, 'Wales' was not a unified country but "At that time, Wales consisted of a number of disunited small Welsh princedoms...", which no doubt made the conquest easier.)
Gpfr wrote: "Everyone, I think it's time to call a halt to the US / Europe polemics and get back to books where we can disagree without bad feeling. CCC for one has said these comments sadden and have disappoin..."Fair enough. I have said my last word on that.
(I should maybe explain that as your comment came on a 'new page', I didn't see it for a while. I tend to work through comments chronologically.)
Gpfr wrote: " I've started reading Harlem Shuffle. This is my 2nd Colson Whitehead book, after The Underground Railroad, and a very different o..."Let me know what you think. I had gathered that Whitehead has a good reputation, but this one disappointed me... I haven't read any others - and probably won't!
Berkley wrote: "William Wallace Cook's Plotto: The Master Book of All Plots. I've never seen a copy, but apparently Cook was an early 20th-C American dime-novel writer and meant this book as a kind of instruction manual or source book for fiction writers struggling to come up with a story."'Plotto' - great title! It sounds potentially hilarious, though probably isn't.
I see that my suggestion of '32 plots' was out by a few - I guess my correspondent was referring to Georges Polti's '36 Dramatic Situations', though that sounds more relevant to scenes in a play than a whole book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thi...
It seems that Vonnegut proposed a theory based on the number of plots for his PhD thesis, which was rejected - to his disgust. Many years later, academics fed lots of data into a computer, which told them there are six basic plots - apparently:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/boo...
Whatever it is, it seems to me that the basic plot matters far less than the quality of writing - and that even a simple plot can be enhanced or destroyed, according to the skill of the writer.
Not a good news day - some of you have already mentioned the arson attack on trains in France - who even knows what point these nutters were trying to make?And now I've just seen a report on the wildfire in Jasper, which we visited a few years ago. It sounds horrific.
Let's hope for some more pleasant news from somewhere in the next few days.
scarletnoir wrote: "It seems that Vonnegut proposed a theory based on the number of plots for his PhD thesis, which was rejected - to his disgust."From that Guardian article:
It’s Vonnegut, however, who inspired the University of Vermont’s researchers most, in particular the similarity he finds between Cinderella and the origin story of Christianity in the Old Testament. In his autobiography, Palm Sunday, Vonnegut wrote: “I confessed that I was daunted by the graph of Cinderella, and was tempted to leave it out of my thesis, since it seemed to prove that I was full of shit. It seemed too complicated and arbitrary to be a representative artefact … but then I said to myself: ‘Wait a minute – those steps at the beginning look like the creation myth of virtually every society on earth.’ And then I saw that the stroke of midnight looked exactly like the unique creation myth in the Old Testament. And then I saw that the rise to bliss at the end was identical with the expectation of redemption as expressed in primitive Christianity. The tales were identical.” Vonnegut’s journey led the researchers “to search for all such groupings”.Am I the only one who finds that comparison totally unconvincing?
Mod
this one disappointed me"
I was thinking it might be something you'd like — but I'm not very far along yet.
Mod
the similarity he finds between Cinderella and the origin story of Christianity in the Old Testament ... Am I the only one who finds that comparison totally unconvincing?..."
No, you aren't!
That bare outline of the comparison does feel unconvincing but I'd be willing to read a more detailed explanation just to see if I could find anything of interest in there, even if I didn't agree fully or travel all the way with Vonnegut to the conclusion he draws - i.e. "The tales were identical" (which could be a little rhetorical overstatement possibly?) .I'm curious, has anyone else here read the Northrop Frye book I mentioned a little earlier, Anatomy of Criticism? I think a few people here might find it enjoyable, even if they don't usually read that kind of thing - in fact, one of its more interesting bits early on is a defence of the very idea of writing literary criticism in the first place, which he doesn't take for granted as a given.
I'll re-read it one of these days. I also want to try a couple others of Frye's, Fearful Symmetry (on Blake) and The Great Code (about the Bible's influence on literature and western culture in general).
scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Norman?"(Worth pointing out that time, 'Wales' was not a unified country but "At that time, Wales consisted of a number of disunited small Welsh princedoms...", which no doubt made the conquest easier.)
."
Perhaps if the Welsh (and also the Scots) had spent less time fighting one another and united against, in both cases, Edward I they may have done better? But when you think about it that is how England was before the unification under Alfred the Great.
I wonder how much the geographies of the three countries had to do with it?
Berkley wrote: "I'm curious, has anyone else here read the Northrop Frye book I mentioned a little earlier, Anatomy of Criticism? I think a few people here might find it enjoyable, even if they don't usually read that kind of thing - in fact, one of its more interesting bits early on is a defence of the very idea of writing literary criticism in the first place, which he doesn't take for granted as a given."I haven't read Frye, but your comment reminded me that in his introduction to Fiction and the Reading Public John Sutherland lists his "Top ten works of British 20th century literary criticism". They are (in chronological order):
The Sacred Wood
The Common Reader
Practical Criticism: A Study of Literary Judgment
Seven Types of Ambiguity
Fiction And The Reading Public
The Great Tradition: George Eliot, Henry James, Joseph Conrad
Milton's Grand Style
The Sense of an Ending: Studies in the Theory of Fiction
Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and Society
Literary Theory: An Introduction
Logger24 wrote: "Bill wrote: "Logger24 wrote: "I think Christopher Booker should also have found room for one other plot category: a stranger comes to town."Is Darcy the stranger coming to town?"
Absolutely. Smo..."
Moose Malloy arrives in Farewell, My Lovely.
Here's a question - how do folks find their rating of books compared to the accumulated number of stars? I mostly find that I am meaner than the average. But having checked my record I find I have given more 4* than I thought. But only three 5*.
Mod
in his introduction to Fiction and the Reading Public John Sutherland lists his "Top ten works of British 20th century literary criticism".
I've still got all my lit. crit. from university. I started looking at this list to see which ones I've got:
The Great Tradition
Milton's Grand Style.
Then, interestingly, I saw another Top 10 by Sutherland in a Guardian article, a different list with only Milton's Grand Style and The Sense of an Ending in common.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...
giveusaclue wrote: "Here's a question - how do folks find their rating of books compared to the accumulated number of stars? I mostly find that I am meaner than the average. But having checked my record I find I have ..."I've tended to give a fair number of books 5 stars over the years; I think a lot depends on my mood for the fifth star.
My most recent 5 star rating was The Salterton Trilogy: Tempest-Tost / Leaven of Malice / A Mixture of Frailties earlier this month. I was probably influenced by the amount of enjoyment I got from it after a couple of less-than-stellar books. But Davies certainly earned it; as a novelist he seldom sets a foot wrong.
Bill wrote: "I haven't read Frye, but your comment reminded me that in his introduction to Fiction and the Reading Public John Sutherland lists his "Top ten works of British 20th century literary criticism". They are (in chronological order):
The Sacred Wood
The Common Reader
Practical Criticism: A Study of Literary Judgment
Seven Types of Ambiguity
Fiction And The Reading Public
The Great Tradition: George Eliot, Henry James, Joseph Conrad
Milton's Grand Style
The Sense of an Ending: Studies in the Theory of Fiction
Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and Society
Literary Theory: An Introduction"
The only one of those that I've read is Eagleton's Literary Theory: An Introduction, which, if I remember, seemed like a good overview of the subject. I have several of the others on my to-read list and have added the ones I hadn't heard about until now - they all sound interesting.
I have read another book of criticism by William Empson - not Seven Types but Milton's God, which is a favourite of mine.
Mod
Sorry you found it heavy going. It does all come together in the later books. I started with the Everyman version translated by George Rawlinson, which has a rather stiff Victorian style. Then I switched to the recent Tom Holland translation, which is excellent - flowing and natural, and not too many modernisms. It also has first-class maps and glossaries. If that is not the one you were reading it might be worth a try some time.
Mod
I think I’ve read excerpts, and now I’m interested to dip in further. I’ll ask the library to get it for me.
Berkley wrote: "The only one of those that I've read is Eagleton's Literary Theory: An Introduction, which, if I remember, seemed like a good overview of the subject. I have several of the others on my to-read list and have added the ones I hadn't heard about until now - they all sound interesting.I have read another book of criticism by William Empson - not Seven Types but Milton's God, which is a favourite of mine."
I have the Eagleton and Empson books unread (as well as another Empson, Some Versions Of Pastoral).
I really enjoyed the Q.D. Leavis book, but somehow suspect the others on Sutherland's list won't delight me nearly as much. Perhaps because deprecation appeals to me more than appreciation, or maybe is just easier to grasp. I expect the Eagleton, though, will be informative.
Mod
Should have been top of my list!
Mod
Looking down that Sutherland list, I found that, apart from about half of the Sontag, it was a case of knowing all the names and none of the books. But Sutherland himself wrote a lot of lighter stuff, which I quite enjoyed - Is Heathcliff a Murderer? Who is Tom Jones’ Father? How Vulgar is Mrs Elton? Is Betsy Trotwood a Spinster? Etc.
Bill wrote: "I really enjoyed the Q.D. Leavis book, but somehow suspect the others on Sutherland's list won't delight me nearly as much. Perhaps because deprecation appeals to me more than appreciation, or maybe is just easier to grasp. I expect the Eagleton, though, will be informative."My memory says that the Eagleton book gives a brief history of literary criticism as well as an over view of some of its dominant strains, so it might whet your appetite for some of the others listed by Sutherland. I'll probably try them in chronological order, if I ever make it that far in my chronological progression through the literary ages.
Logger24 wrote: "Berkley wrote: "...I'm curious, has anyone else here read the Northrop Frye book I mentioned a little earlier, Anatomy of Criticism?..."I think I’ve read excerpts, and now I’m interested to dip in further. I’ll ask the library to get it for me."
It's been quite a few years since I read it - I think back in the 1990s - so I look forward to hearing your thoughts if you do read it. Like many things read so many years ago, I recall my own impressions at the time more than the actual content of the book.
Gpfr wrote: "I've still got all my lit. crit. from university. I started looking at this list to see which ones I've got:
The Great Tradition
Milton's Grand Style.
Then, interestingly, I saw another Top 10 by Sutherland in a Guardian article, a different list with only Milton's Grand Style and The Sense of an Ending in common."
One list was restricted to 20thC English criticism so that could explain most of the differences but he does choose a different book by Eagleton in this one - does that mean he changed his mind as to which Eagleton was most essential? How many years apart were the two lists, I wonder?
Mod
I saw another Top 10 by Sutherland in a Guardian article, a different list..."
One list was restricted to 20thC English criticism so that could explain most of the differences"
Yes, indeed. I was obviously no longer very wide awake :)
Mod
Gpfr wrote: "Bill wrote: "Berkley wrote: "I'm curious, has anyone else here read the Northrop Frye book I mentioned a little earlier, Anatomy of Criticism?..."in his introduction to Fiction and the Reading Pu..."
Frye was a Canadian professor, if I recall. He and US critic Edmund Wilson were described as "the great culture vultures."
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