Catholic Thought discussion
Lord of the Rings
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Bk1 Chapters 7,8,9
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Thank you very much for the helpful summary, Manny! As I was reading the chapter 'Fog on the Barrow-Downs', I was struck by how much darker the novel seems compared with when I read it for the first time as a teenager. In its mood and imagery, the chapter resembled other Christian pilgrimage literature, such as the Divine Comedy and The Pilgrim's Progress. The Slough of Despond and parts of the Inferno came to my mind as I imagined Frodo suddenly isolated in the thick fog, the captive of the mysterious and terrifying Barrow-Wight.
Thank you for these summaries, Manny! They definitely help a lot, there is so much to remember.I really loved the chapter about Tom Bombadil, where I found two big Christian themes, one of which is confession (which is specifically Catholic, I would say). When Frodo talks with Tom Bombadil, Tolkien describes Frodo feeling compelled to tell him the whole story, to tell him even more information he told Gandalf:
"Indeed so much did Tom know, and so cunning was his questioning, that Frodo found himself telling him more about Biblo and his own hopes and fears that he had told before even to Gandalf."
I feel like this is a great allusion to a certain divine nature to Tom Bombadil, along with the fact that when Frodo asks Goldberry who Tom really is, she simply replies "He is." which definitely reminded me not only of the "I Am that I Am" of the Old Testament in which God names Himself, but also of the New Testament ("Before Abraham was, I am"). Tom Bombadil is such a strange and intriguing character, I wish Tolkien told us what he actually was, but also this failure to categorize him in Tolkien's world gives his character a great meaning.
Mod
As I was reading the chapter 'Fog on the Barrow-Downs', I was struck by how much darker the novel seems compared with when I read it for the fi..."
Yes, I agree L, the Barrows chapter is very dark. It's probably the first real incident where we see the power of the dark side.
I was thinking of the Divine Comedy in the previous chapter. Frodo's dream if I remember was first with being chased by a wolf and then lifted by an eagle. Dante (the character, not the author) is forced to go through world of the afterlife because he was being pursued by three creatures, the last being the wolf. And then in Purgatorio Dante is lifted up by eagle from the lower part of the mountain to the terraces section. There may be parts of LotR that allude to the Divine Comedy. I have not read Pilgrim's Progress, but I would imagine such a spiritual journey could have echoes in LotR.
As to Barrows, that is a unique noun for hills or hilly country that only seem to be used in England. Barrows also has a particular allusion to burial grounds. There is probably more to the use of "Barrows" than we understand.
Mod
"Indeed so much did Tom know, and so cunning was his questioning, that Frodo found himself telling him more about Biblo and his own hopes and fears that he had told before even to Gandalf."
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I did not pick up on that. I will have to go back and re-read that. Thanks for pointing it out Ellie.
I too picked up on what seems to be the divine nature of Tom Bombadil. However, I can't see anything Christian in him. He strikes me as some sort of wood demi god from pagan mythology. I intend to flesh that thought out more but if you can connect him with some sort of Christian tradition, I would love to see that.
Ellie, I also thought of "I AM" when Goldberry said that.
Tom Bombadil seems to me to be a type of an Adam figure. What he might have been like before the fall. Not divine, but also not affected or limited by sin. When he plays around with the ring and it doesn't have the same effect on him, similar to the temptation that is derived from original sin that everyone else, even Gandalf and Galadriel acknowledge. He also is able to experience joy and shed the weight of darkness quicker than the others. Goldberry seems to share these qualities also.
I thought of him like a type of an angel-figure.
Mod
Kelly that is an interesting thought. I never thought of that. He does seem to have some sort of magic powers which I don't think Adam had.
One thing I will say when I do put my thoughts together is to reference Goldberry's comment that Tom is "Master of wood, water, and hill." Taken from a Christian perspective, those three elements could refer to cross, baptism, and death, hill being a burial mound. But then what does that mean? I don't know.
Can anyone tell if Goldberry is his spouse or his daughter? What exactly is their relationship?
Manny wrote: "I'm sorry, as usual I'm behind on putting my thoughts on these chapters together. I'm trying to juggle a number of things. Hopefully within tonight and tomorrow.Kelly that is an interesting thoug..."
I thought she was his wife, but now I'm wondering if that was an assumption on my part. Hopefully someone else could clarify!
I define think Gold berry his his spouse. Also, I am thinking he is not an allegorical Adam but just a type, who, hints at what man might have been had he not fallen.
Mod
I wonder if this is also a foreshadowing of what is going to happen to the characters. With Frodo there will definitely be a significance with an eagle. I don't quite remember what all happens to Pippin and Merry. With Sam, he is the faithful servant and quite content in the role.
We'll have to keep this passage in mind as we move deeper into the tale and see.
Mod
"Goldberry first appeared in Tolkien's 1934 poem, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil,[4] re-worked into a 1962 poetry collection of the same name.[5] The poem tells of how she drags Tom into the river before he escapes, returning later to capture her and make her his bride."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldberry
So one has to know an outside source to know their relationship. I only questioned it because Goldberry strikes me as much younger than Tom, and at one point she identifies herself as "the daughter of the River." While that doesn't mean she's Tom's daughter, the suggestion of daughter is raised to the reader.
Mod
You can sense the richness and depth of Tolkien’s genius in the many different images that spring forth from his writing, can’t you? I found this about mysterious Tom: “Bombadil was described in Tolkien’s books as ‘older than the old,’ a benevolent entity who begins life around the time all life began . . . In a 1937 letter to his publisher, Tolkien described Bombadil as ‘the spirit of the vanishing Oxford and Berkshire countryside.’ Tolkien chose not to write in allegory, but it’s clear he saw Bombadil as nature personified — right up to the character’s ambivalence about interfering in the larger world around him. “
Mod
My first thought to what Tom might be was to identify him as some sort of nature deity. He does have some sort of magic powers, especially with his singing. Goldberry identifies herself as “daughter of the River.” Taken literally that is something right out of Greek mythology. Tom is certainly naturally attuned to the woods, the trees, the stream, and later we see the hills. His stories seem to be about the history of Middle Earth within the parameters of nature. All his songs are filled with nature. Here’s one from chapter seven:
I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies,
green leaves and lilies white to please my pretty lady,
the last ere the year’s end to keep them from the winter,
to flower by her pretty feet till the snows are melted.
Each year at summer’s end I go to find them for her,
in a wide pool, deep and clear, far down Withywindle;
there they open first in spring and there they linger latest.
By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter,
fair young Goldberry sitting in the rushes.
He is within nature, doing things with nature, and using nature for his ends. Goldberry says that he is “Master of wood, water, and hill." When he accompanies the hobbits out in Barrow-downs, he comes to a limit to how far he can go and will go no further. Pippin asks him if he thinks they will be attacked this evening. Tom answers him with a qualification.
‘No, I hope not tonight,’ answered Tom Bombadil; ‘nor perhaps the next day. But do not trust my guess; for I cannot tell for certain. Out east my knowledge fails. Tom is not master of Riders from the Black Land far beyond his country.’
“Out east my knowledge fails,” is the first time we are told of Tom’s limitation. When the hobbits urge him to continue with them, Tom does not. Take note, in that last sentence, that is the only place where “master” is not capitalized, and it’s linked to a limit beyond his domain.
They begged him to come at least as far as the inn and drink once more with them; but he laughed and refused, saying:
Tom’s country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!
Then he turned, tossed up his hat, leaped on Lumpkin’s back, and rode up over the bank and away singing into the dusk.
His country ends there. It’s almost like he’s linked to a particular plot of earth, and his powers will not be efficacious beyond it. This alludes to a local nature deity in pagan worldview.
On the other hand, if we look at Tom from a Christian perspective, he seems he has been given some sort of divine nature. Goldberry’s description of Tom as “Master of wood, water, and hill” can be taken as a Christian identity. Wood is associated with the cross and the trees in Eden, water as from the river that was once thought to have its source in Eden flowing down to Earth and, of course, associated with baptism, and hill associated with the hill of Calvary and the burial mounds for the dead. Why is “Master” capitalized? I believe it’s capitalized every time someone refers to him as master. “Master” capitalized seems to me to be an allusion to Christ, who is sometimes referred to as “Master” in the Gospels. Tom repeatedly saves the hobbits, from the Old Willow, from the Dark Shadow in the Barrow-downs, and from the dark riders as he gives them the path to get to Bree. He saves them and he does it merely with the spoken word. “For he spoke, and it came to be” (Ps 33:9). Jesus speaks and miracles happened. Now Tom is clearly not Jesus, but perhaps he could be a delegate such as a saint in a hagiography. There are lots of examples, but I’ll just pick a Biblical one. St. Peter brings Dorcas back to life in Acts 9 through the power of words.
I really like Kelly’s thought that Tom and Goldberry are types for Adam and Eve prior to the Fall. Frodo asked at one point.
‘Who are you, Master?’ he asked.
‘Eh, what?’ said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. ‘Don’t you know my name yet? That’s the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.’
That does put Tom in the mythic past of before the Earth and history were formed. It does put him in an Edenic context. He could be associated with Jesus because Jesus is the new Adam. Tom is the Adam that could have been if Adam and Eve had not disobeyed.
There is a third aspect to Tom that is suggested in the text. He is a story-teller.
He then told them many remarkable stories, sometimes half as if speaking to himself, sometimes looking at them suddenly with a bright blue eye under his deep brows. Often his voice would turn to song, and he would get out of his chair and dance about. He told them tales of bees and flowers, the ways of trees, and the strange creatures of the Forest, about the evil things and good things, things friendly and things unfriendly, cruel things and kind things, and secrets hidden under brambles.
As they listened, they began to understand the lives of the Forest, apart from themselves, indeed to feel themselves as the strangers where all other things were at home. Moving constantly in and out of his talk was Old Man Willow, and Frodo learned now enough to content him, indeed more than enough, for it was not comfortable lore. Tom’s words laid bare the hearts of trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers. It was not called the Old Forest without reason, for it was indeed ancient, a survivor of vast forgotten woods; and in it there lived yet, ageing no quicker than the hills, the fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering times when they were lords. The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice. But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow: his heart was rotten, but his strength was green; and he was cunning, and a master of winds, and his song and thought ran through the woods on both sides of the river. His grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth and spread like fine root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in the air, till it had under its dominion nearly all the trees of the Forest from the Hedge to the Downs.
Tom is a bard, a teller of stories, one who a sings of history and feats. It is particularly significant in ancient Celtic cultures where the bards were associated with nature. Here is how Wikipedia describes “bard.”
In the words of the Oxford English Dictionary, the bards were an "ancient Celtic order of minstrel-poets, whose primary function appears to have been to compose and sing (usually to the harp) verses celebrating the achievements of chiefs and warriors, and who committed to verse historical and traditional facts, religious precepts, laws, genealogies, etc."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard#
But such bards existed in many pre-literate cultures. Homer is considered a bard. Tom continued with his tales.
Suddenly Tom’s talk left the woods and went leaping up the young stream, over bubbling waterfalls, over pebbles and worn rocks, and among small flowers in close grass and wet crannies, wandering at last up on to the Downs. They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all.
And Tom goes further and further back, beyond human memory.
When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake.
The bard doesn’t just tell a story, he creates reality itself. If you want to read a book on the nature of bards, pick up Alfred Lord’s The Singer of Tales, where Lord “formulates oral tradition as a theory of literary composition and its applications to Homeric and medieval epic. Lord builds on the research of Milman Parry and their joint work recording Balkan guslar poets.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sin... One could think of J.R.R. Tolkien as a bard (albeit that LotR is a written and not an oral composition) by the telling of the tale of this epic. In this sense we could almost see Tom Bombadil as Tolkien himself.
So which is it? Is Tom a pagan nature deity, an Edenic prelapsarian Adam, or a bardic singer of tales? His person, I think, is so mysterious, so rich, and so deep that he encompasses all three. There is no reason to limit his persona.
There may be only one female so far, but soon Galadriel, Arwen and Eowyn will enter the picture. It's never bothered me with books. Some of my favorite are with male characters. Maybe because I'm in my mid-fifties, who knows.
I love how... unknowable Tom Bombadil is. Even after decades of this book being written, here we can still argue and come up with different explanations about his character. While I always thought of him as Tolkien personified, as the author putting himself into a character, now it's not so easy, because Tom Bombadil is just so diverse, as Manny pointed out masterfully. I think there is a bit of everything in him - paganism, nature, Christianity, he may even be Myth personified because we know Tolkien loved myths and defended them in his poem 'Mythopoeia'. What's wonderful to me is that Tom Bombadil is a character you can't categorise even after all this time of his existence. While there may be subjective opinions, we may never properly be able to say what he is, whether a nature deity, a God figure, somebody without sin, or just a fun little guy in a silly hat. As Manny said, there is no limit to the character; I think Tolkien would want us to make of him what we, personally, want.
To comment on the female characters... it's interesting but I've never really noticed the "lack" of female characters in the books/the beginning of this book. I think it's because the male characters are written so well that I didn't feel the yearning for a female character, as lovely as they are. I am content with what Tolkien gave us through all these male characters, which are all fun and entirely "human".
Mod
I think first and foremost it is a very good story exceptionally well written. Everything else is secondary.
We have a quintessential hero's quest here. Man in his divinely ordained role as protector. What are the characters compelled to fight? The loss of peace, stability, order, and culture, in other words, they fight for their freedom to live within their inherited traditions. Now this serves women too. Only in peace and freedom can one raise stable families and provide for the needs of daily living. When a population gets enslaved - and this is the big outside threat - the family unit and thereby the culture that arose from it gets destroyed.
There is something deeply satisfying, even primal, in a well written hero's quest.
I would say my favorite female hero in literature is Penelope of the Odyssey. While her husband, as a result of dumb decisions, wanders around for twenty years before he finally gets home, she protects home and hearth. But it goes much deeper than that. Their marriage bed is no ordinary bed, it is carved out of a tree stump still rooted in the earth which Odysseus built himself. The house was built around it. On this bed they conceived their son Telemachus, and in the long years of waiting she is protecting his inheritance. That's quite heroic for a (young) woman in her prime given she has her choice and lure of male suitors. Aside from the material aspects, she is protecting at home peace and stability while the men are off at war.
In contrast, Agamemnon's wife Clytemnestra chose to defile the marriage bed, and his house and kingdom fell apart.
If one is to fend off threats from the outside, it takes heroic actions of both, men and women, those that are on the front lines and those who keep the home fires burning.
Mod
Here is another layer: The name Thomas means twin. He is like..., and like..., etc. Just like a twin who is part of a whole but still wholly separate.
It struck me that Tom Bombadil has an ordinary first name unlike most of the characters, which are creations of Tolkien.
Mod
Oh you're right Kerstin. I didn't realize that. Tom is the only contemporary name in the entire story with the possible except of his wife Goldberry. I guess Goldberry is contemporary, though perhaps unusual. So Tom and Goldberry not only go back to the beginning of time but in a sense they go forward to contemporary time.
Mod
Mod
I have finished Book 1 of the Fellowship, and am starting on Book 2, and apart from the opening chapters, I just don't see that many references to either Catholicism or the Old Testament.The primary references are from the Icelandic myths, mainly:
The Saga of the Volsungs (Penguin Classics), Jesse L Byock, Translator
https://amzn.to/3WbP3xk
The Prose Edda: Norse Mythology (Penguin Classics), by Snorri Sturluson, Jesse L Byock, Translator
https://amzn.to/4bPoiEI
The Elder Edda: A Book of Viking Lore (Penguin Classics), Andy Orchard, Translator
https://amzn.to/3Y8PECH
You can purchase these used from Amazon for about twenty dollars total.
This post is direct excerpts from:https://yourfriendinreykjavik.com/nor...
Some of the work we used to make this blog
An Overview of the Northern Influences on Tolkien’s Works by G. S. Clair – Published 1995
Norse Elements in the work of J.R.R. Tolkien by Martin Wettstein
THE NORSE MYTH IN THE WORLD OF TOLKIEN by Daniele Sanacore
Völuspá
Desolate landscapes, dwarfs, elves and wizards
This sounds familiar to Icelanders and those who know Icelandic folklore and Middle Earth. Tolkien was inspired by Icelandic books written by both known and unknown Icelandic authors, such as the Sagas and Prose Edda. As an Icelander myself, I love Icelandic sagas, Norse Mythology and Tolkien’s work. I even took a Tolkien class once, and here I am, sharing my knowledge of these things combined.
Norse mythology
Norse mythology is the sagas of the Æsir religion practised in Nordic countries and is believed to have originated in Sweden. In some ways, it is like Greek mythology and mythologies from cultures worldwide. The Æsir religion is still practised today though obviously, it is not as widespread as before.
In Icelandic, the Æsir Religion is called Ásatrú. Many of the first settlers in Iceland came from Norway. They believed in the old Norse gods and practised that religion until 1000. At that time, Icelanders converted wholly to Christianity, but there had been Christians living in Iceland until that point. Especially people who had come from Ireland and many other parts of the British Isles.
Most of the world’s primary sources of Norse mythology are Icelandic. The two Eddas, Prose Edda and Poetic Edda, are basically the only sources we have on the mythology. Icelander Snorri Sturluson wrote Prose Edda (also known as Snorra-Edda) in the early 13th century.
Snorri Sturluson as painter Haukur Stefánsson imagined him in 1930.
It is harder to date the Poetic Edda as it is a book of poems, which most likely were narrative poems to begin with. It is believed they were written down in the 10th or 11th century. However, some of the poems probably came from Scandinavia and are older than the Icelandic settlement (Scandinavians most likely settled in Iceland in the 870s). But younger poems are probably Icelandic, so even if some disagree with who “owns” the Poetic Edda, Icelanders usually claim them as theirs.
Norse mythology, not unlike Greek mythology, has gods, giants, dwarfs, elves, and many other creatures. Tolkien was fascinated by this and used some of the creatures, names, and other themes in his works.
Tolkien introduced to Norse Mythology
Tolkien never made it to Iceland for a visit, even if he wanted to. Still, as we have already said, his works were inspired by Iceland, its stories and its language. For example, the trolls in The Hobbit are inspired by Icelandic folktales, and Gandalf is the incarnation of Odin. There are many other examples which we will get to later. But how did he get introduced to Iceland?
Old Norse and an Icelandic Nanny
During his education, he read and translated from Old Norse (the parent language of Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, and Icelandic). He specialized in English philology at Oxford University and graduated in 1915 with Old Norse as his special subject.
In the early 1930s, Tolkien got an Icelandic au-pair. The 20-year-old girl from Bíldudalur, Arndís, loved telling the children – and sometimes Tolkien – stories about Iceland. She told the children Icelandic folktales before they went to sleep and taught them a little bit of Icelandic.
Tolkien’s former home in Oxfordshire.
One of her chores was supposed to be teaching Tolkien Icelandic. Still, his wife was jealous of them speaking in a language she didn’t understand, so there wasn’t as much teaching as planned. Tolkien was still fascinated by this world Arndís talked about. Even though he had already begun writing The Hobbit when she came, the influence is evident.
C.S. Lewis was also influenced by the Sagas
Tolkien founded a club that focused on the Icelandic sagas with his friend C.S. Lewis, the writer of The Chronicles of Narnia. They encouraged the reading, translating, and discussing Icelandic sagas in the original language. This club was originally called Kolbítur (a young man who lies in the cinders of the hearth, unpromising). Still, when Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and more started writing their own Sagas, they changed the book club’s name to The Inklings.
Tolkien was, therefore, always in contact with Icelandic literature, and he used what he had learned as an inspiration for his writings.
The similarities between the worlds
Tolkien had a great imagination, and he got a lot of inspiration from plenty of different cultures and legends. Some things could be inspired by combining different stories, while others are almost taken straight from something else. Some Icelanders, like myself, really like to find what could have been inspired by our books, stories, and culture. I will now share some of the most obvious ones with you.
Rings and Swords
In Norse Mythology, both rings and swords are very important and were often used in poems as metaphors for power. To own rings was to have power but to share a ring was to share a property with someone.
The most powerful rings in Norse Mythology were forged by dwarfs, such as The Ring of Odin. All swords in Norse Mythology have names that describe their history, just like in Middle Earth. For example, Glamdring, the sword of Gandalf the Grey and Sting, the sword of Bilbo Baggins.
Gandalf
Gandalf himself is definitely influenced by the Norse god Odin. Gandalf’s character’s name appears in the Poetic and Prose Eddas. Odin is often described in the old texts as The Wanderer, an old man with one eye, a long white beard, and a broad hat, wearing a cloak and wielding a spear. He is the promoter of knowledge, truth, insight, and justice. Starting to sound familiar?
Tolkien even wrote in a letter in 1946 that he thought of Gandalf as an “Odinic wanderer”. The clearest example of direct influence is Gandalf’s name. The name Gandalf appears in a few Icelandic books. It is on a list of dwarfs in both Völuspá and Prose-Edda, and then there is a king Gandalf in Heimskringla. We don’t know more about this king Gandalf than the name means an elf with a staff or a wand in Icelandic.
Elves
The elves in Middle-Earth are tall, intelligent, slim, and very beautiful. The elves in Iceland are often called Hidden People or Huldufólk rather than elves or álfar. They are sometimes described as taller, slimmer, and more beautiful than us humans. Sounds quite similar.
In both Middle-Earth and Norse Mythology, we have a few different types of elves.
In Middle-Earth, we have the Calaquendi, the Elves of Light, and Moriquendi, the Elves of Darkness. In Norse Mythology, we have Light Elves and Dark Elves. The Light Elves are often associated with the gods, just like Calaquendi (the Elves of Light) are related to the Valar.
Trolls
In Icelandic folktales, we have countless stories about giant, ugly creatures that turn to stone when exposed to the sun. They are sometimes described as dumb and like tricking people in their favour. They usually live up in the mountains in caves. In The Hobbit, giant ugly creatures turn to stone when exposed to the sun. When they are not outside, they stay inside caves. Tolkien later explained that since trolls were created from stone by Morgoth using a spell cast in darkness, they change back to their true form when exposed to the sun, therefore turning to stone.
The Balrog, Durin’s Bane
The Balrog, called the Durin’s Bane, became an important character in The Fellowship of the Ring. It was the fire monster in Moria that the fellowship inadvertently awakened. Durin’s bane and Gandalf fought on the Bridge of Khazad-dúm. Gandalf shatters the Balrog’s fiery sword and then strikes the bridge, breaking it in half. The Balrog falls into the deep but then uses its whip and latches onto Gandalf’s legs and drags him down with him.
The Balrog is parallel to the fire jötunn Surtr in Norse mythology. Surtr is a fire giant from extreme heat and fire and bears a burning sword. He leads his kin into battle against the gods during the destruction of the cosmos, Ragnarök. His fate is to kill the god Freyr and be slain by him, just like Balrog and Gandalf slaying each other on the bridge. There are other similarities. In Norse Mythology, Surtr is supposed to destroy Bifröst, Asgard’s bridge, just like Khazad-dúm in Middle-Earth.
Dwarfs
Most Icelanders must read The Hobbit in junior college before they’re 18. Most also read Völuspá (which is in Poetic Edda) around the same time. In it, there is a chapter called Dvergatal or catalogue of dwarfs. In Dvergatal, we find Thorin, Dwalin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Nori, Ori and Oin. You will find almost all dwarf names from The Hobbit in Dvergatal, including Gandalf’s name.
We have no descriptions of their characteristics despite having all those names, and dwarfs are not common in post-medieval Icelandic folktales. Tolkien, therefore, did not have much to be inspired by other than the names. Tolkien talks about dwarfs as compatible with rock, stone, and earth. They are heavy, solid, loyal, resilient, stubborn, materialistic, and prosaic.
He might have been inspired by some Icelandic stories, but it is more likely that he mixed dwarf narratives from other countries to create his own. Personally, I couldn’t be happier about how they turned out.
Valar and Ainur
If you know Tolkien’s work, you know the Valar and the Ainur. They were the powers of Arda, who shaped and ruled the world, powerful creatures like the Asir and Vanir, the gods of Asgard in Norse Mythology. We can see similarities in some of the characters.
Thor, for example, is physically the strongest of the Norse gods. Thor is obviously the inspiration for two of the Valars. First is Tulkas, who is physically the strongest of the Valar, and the second is Orome, a fighter of the monsters of Melkor.
Tolkien also drew inspiration from Odin, the all-father, the mightiest of the gods. We can see similarities in Manwe, who was the leader of the Ainur and King of the Valar.
The languages
Tolkien did impressive work; he created all the characters, a whole new world, and a few languages.
One of the languages was the Angerthas or Dwarf runes. It was a runic script used by the dwarfs that utilized both runes and glyphs when written. It was created by the elven loremaster Daeron of Doriath and was at first called Cirth or Certar Daeron. The dwarfs learned the runes from the elves and took up that language. Later it became the dwarf language.
While other languages in Middle-Earth, like the Elvish languages (Quenya and Sindarin), were inspired by Latin and ancient Indian, the dwarf runes were inspired by the Nordic runes of the Vikings.
Tolkien has Made Icelandic Books More Interesting
I was able to find many of these sources on the internet:An Overview of the Northern Influences on Tolkien’s Works by G. S. Clair – Published 1995
https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent....
Norse Elements in the work of J.R.R. Tolkien by Martin Wettstein
https://www.academia.edu/228734/Norse...
THE NORSE MYTH IN THE WORLD OF TOLKIEN by Daniele Sanacore
https://www.academia.edu/27837783/THE...
Völuspá
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6...
Which has external links
Also, the other works referenced, the Eddas and Sagas by Snorri Sturluson and others, have Wikipedia pages, and they probably have free links as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prose_Edda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6...
The opening scene in the Fellowship of the Ring is Bilbo Baggins eleventy-first birthday, which is also in Frodo Baggin’s thirty-third year. We know that the ages and number of years are significant, because JRR Tolkien tells us they are in his dialogue. “Together we score one hundred and forty-four. Your numbers were chosen to fit this remarkable total.”
(JRR Tolkien, Fellowship of the Rings, Chapter 1, A Long-expected Party, p. 30)
Perhaps the age of Bilbo Baggins, or 111, symbolizes the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
What is the possible significance of 111 + 33 = 144? Perhaps this is twelve squared, or 12 X 12. This likely refers to the number of the tribes of Israel, and the number of the disciples of Christ.
Many commentators view Frodo as a type of Christ that saves humanity, but perhaps this twelve-squared suggests he is a type of Moses, who is also seen as a type of Christ. Frodo is definitely seen as a reluctant prophet.
Gandalf himself states that “there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-Maker. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you,” Frodo, “also were meant to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought.”
But Frodo disagrees, he is not encouraged by the awesome responsibility of carrying the ring, just as Moses was a reluctant prophet when facing the Burning Bush.
(JRR Tolkien, Fellowship of the Rings, Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past, p. 56)
Gandalf reveals to Frodo his destiny:
You must “find the Cracks of Doom in the depths” “of the Fire-Mountain” in Mordor, “and cast the Ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it, to put it beyond the grasp of the Enemy forever.”
But Frodo responds like a reluctant Moses: “I do really wish to destroy it! Or, well, to have it destroyed. I am not made for perilous quests. I wish I had never seen the Ring! Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?”
“Such questions cannot be answered,” said Gandalf. “You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.”
(JRR Tolkien, Fellowship of the Rings, Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past, p. 61)
What could be the significance of Frodo celebrating his thirty-third birthday?
Although modern Christians view heaven as a Platonic spiritual place, in the New Testament, and in early and medieval Christianity, the physical resurrection of the body was not only stressed, it was a core Christian belief.
Peter Lombard is referencing St Augustine’s City of God when he states that when our bodies are resurrected, “each one will receive his own bodily size of his youth, even if he died an old man.” His “age will that which Christ reached, or the youthful one, of about thirty years.” “For the age of Christ at His resurrection was thirty-two years and three months.”
Peter Lombard, The Sentences, Book 4, On the Doctrine of Signs, translated by Giulio Silano (Toronto: Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, 2010, originally 1160’s), Distinction XLIV, Chapter 1, Chapter 251, p.239.
But after Bilbo’s birthday, when Frodo is but thirty-three, Frodo stays in the Hobbit Shire until a few years short of his fiftieth birthday. What is the significance of the number of years spent waiting in the Shire, until he departs on the quest to destroy the Ring in the molten mountain of Mordor?
What is the significance of this seventeen-year gap? Is seventeen a biblical number?
But what we do know is that: 1918 + 17 = 1935
The Fellowship of Rings was originally published in 1954, soon after CS Lewis published his Mere Christianity and his Chronicles of Narnia, when the memories of the Great War, the defeat of Nazi Germany, and the nuclear annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were still very vivid and fresh.
The Dark Riders from Mordor ruthlessly searching for the master Ring hanging on Frodo’s neck would have reminded the first readers of the Lord of the Rings of the SS Storm Troopers and Gestapo in their ominous dark uniforms, which were also inspired by pagan Nordic mythology.
Let us review the calendar:
November 1918: End of World War I, Hitler was a corporal.
January 1933: Hitler becomes Chancellor of Germany under Paul Hindenburg, President.
March 1933: Enabling Act, Hitler is now Fuhrer, Dictator of Germany.
Many good men are deceived into trusting Hitler to defend Germany from communism.
July 1934: Night of the Long Knives, the SA leadership and Hitler’s enemies are murdered in cold blood.
And Frodo is nearly killed by the Dark Riders when he crosses the stream that overflows its banks at the end of Book 1.
August 1936: Berlin Summer Olympics, the calm before the storm.
March 1938: Anschluss, German Annexation of Austria.
September 1938: Munich Agreement, clearing the way for German Annexation of Czechoslovakia.
November 1938: Kristallnacht, Night of Broken Glass, SS Storm Troopers and the Gestapo initiate the looting and burning of Jewish synagogues, stores, and homes, while ordinary Germans look the other way.
The second watershed event when the dark character of Nazi Germany is revealed.
September 1939: Nazi Germany invades Poland, formal beginning of World War II.
Explanation of Peter Lombard's Sentences, which I quoted from:From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_L...
“Peter Lombard, c. 1096 – 21/22 August 1160, was an Italian scholastic theologian, Bishop of Paris, and author of Four Books of Sentences which became the standard textbook of theology, for which he earned the accolade Magister Sententiarum.”
“The Four Books of Sentences formed the framework upon which four centuries of scholastic interpretation of Western Christian dogma was based; however, rather than being a dialectical work itself, the Four Books of Sentences is a compilation of biblical texts, together with relevant passages from the Church Fathers and many medieval thinkers. It covered virtually the entire field of Christian theology as it was understood at the time. Peter Lombard's magnum opus stands squarely within the pre-scholastic exegesis of biblical passages, in the tradition of Anselm of Laon who taught through quotations from authorities. It stands out as the first major effort to bring together commentaries on the full range of theological issues, arrange the material in a systematic order, and attempt to reconcile them where they appeared to defend different viewpoints.”
Many theology students were required to comment on the Sentences, and many medieval theologians also published commentaries. St Thomas Aquinas’ commentaries on the Sentences were so highly regarded that the study of the Sentences was deprecated, but many modern scholars, including Dorsey Armstrong of the Great Courses Plus, posit that you would benefit from studying the Sentences before studying the works of St Thomas Aquinas, and they are much easier, and less boring, to read.
Great Minds of the Medieval World, Audible Audiobook, by Dorsey Armstrong, The Great Courses Plus
https://amzn.to/3SdHPIh
And you can have a one-month trial subscription for free from:
https://www.thegreatcoursesplus.com
The Sentences, Book 4: On the Doctrine of Signs, by Peter Lombard, Giulio Silano, Translator
https://amzn.to/4f8YrKT
The Sentences Book 1: The Mystery of the Trinity, by Peter Lombard, Giulio Silano, Translator
https://amzn.to/3Y7Lmvq
The Sentences Book 2: On Creation, by Peter Lombard, Giulio Silano, Translator
https://amzn.to/3YaHvxw
The Sentences Book 3: On the Incarnation of the Word, by Peter Lombard, Giulio Silano, Translator
https://amzn.to/4bSIRAa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bom...Who is Tom Bombadil?
One character in the Fellowship of the Rings that does not appear to be derived neither from Nordic Myth nor the Old Testament, nor any other tradition such as the Iliad, is the enigmatic Tom Bombadil.
Dr Wikipedia tells us that “Tolkien stated that he invented Tom Bombadil in memory of his children's Dutch doll.” He first appeared in Tolkien's 1934 poem titled “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil." Tolkien commented further that “even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one.”
“Tolkien said little of Tom Bombadil's origins, and the character does not fit neatly into the categories of beings Tolkien created. Bombadil calls himself the ‘Eldest’ and the ‘Master.’ He claims to remember ‘the first raindrop and the first acorn’, and that he ‘knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless—before the Dark Lord came from Outside.’”
“When Frodo asks Goldberry just who Tom Bombadil is, she responds simply by saying ‘He is.’ Some critics have taken this dialogue as a reference to God's statement ‘I Am that I Am’ in the Book of Exodus, an idea which Tolkien denied as an influence.”
Dr Wikipedia continues, “In response to a letter, Tolkien described Tom in The Lord of the Rings as ‘just an invention’ and ‘not an important person to the narrative,’ even if ‘he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function.” Tolkien invented Tom Bombadil simply to add to the adventures experienced by Frodo and his hobbit companions.
Dr Wikipedia includes footnotes for the sources of these comments.
Mod
That's a good question!
It may be to represent the past before the past, the pre-history. Throughout the story we read about ancestries and legacies of one sort or another. The history of a person, who somebody's ancestors are, where a certain people originally came from and why they were forced to settle in a new place long ago. All these things are still being documented and brought to mind as relevant. But there must have been something before known history, and Tom and Goldberry are a remnant of that time.
The value of tradition seems to me another theme in the book.
Mod
What really caught my eye was how you point out that the various languages within the book are based on current languages. Elvish on Latin and Dwarf's languages on Germanic. One intuits this but it's good to have it formally put down to confirm it. The languages should be coming up soon, and I will definitely keep this in mind.
Some of the numerology you pointed out is also interesting. It makes sense.
Mod
The value of tradition seems to me another theme in the book.."
From what I thought I read, the movie did not include Bombadil and Goldberry at all. Skipped them and didn't seem to make a difference.
I'm not sure I see so much tradition in Tom but I do see a historical memory of the past. I think what Kelly brought up is resonating more and more with me: He and Goldberry are the Adam and Eve if humanity had not fallen. They serve as models of an ideal to contrast the rest of humanity against.
Perhaps. Ultimately I don't really know. They are mysterious!
Manny wrote: "Bruce, wow, some good stuff you posted. You should space it out a little bit so as to not overwhelm. Fascinating the connection with the Icelandic myths. That seems to be a real strong connection. ..."The post on the elfen languages was copied straight from another blog that was referenced.
Who is Goldberry? She appeared in Tolkien’s 1934 poem, Adventures of Tom Bombadil, where she drags Tom Bombadil into the river. He escapes, only to capture her as his bride. Marriage by kidnapping was common in the ancient and medieval world, this was forbidden by several church councils, including the Council of Trent.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldberry
Like Tom Bombadil, she doesn’t easily fit into the races of Middle Earth in Tolkien’s trilogy. Obviously, she is patterned after a river goddess, or a water nymph. Most ancient peoples believed that a goddess or god inhabited each river and stream.
This is suggested by this passage, when Frodo cried out to his companions:
“Goldberry! My fair lady, clad all in silver green! We have never said farewell to her, nor seen her since the evening!”
They looked, and “there on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun, it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed from under her feet as she danced.”
Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 8, Fog on the Barrow Downs, p. 135.
Did this echo the flaming hair of Achilles in the Iliad that frightened the Trojans? Perhaps, but the context differs. Tolkien, like all well-educated British schoolchildren, would have read the Iliad.
Homer, in the Iliad, tells us that the goddess Iris brings a message to Achilles that he should dally in camp no longer, that he should march out to battle with this fellow Greeks. Achilles reminds her that he has no armor, he cannot fit into the armor donned by any other Greek, her informs the goddess that his mother Thetis has asked the god Hephaestus to forge him a suit of armor befitting the gods, but this armor will not be ready for him to don until the morning light.
Homer, in the Iliad, sings:
“Quick as the wind the goddess had a plan:
‘We know, we too, they hold your famous armor.
Still, just as you are, go out to the broad trench
and show yourself to the Trojans. Struck with fear
at the sight of you, they might hold off the attack.”
One of the most famous scenes of western literature develops, as Achilles climbed up to the top of the ramparts surrounding the Greek camp,
“the goddess swept a golden cloud to crown his head
and from it she lit a fire to blaze across the field.”
“Achilles rose and loosed an enormous cry
and off in the distance the god Pallas shrieked too
and drove unearthly panic through the Trojans.”
Poets picture the mighty Achilles, larger than life, thundering on the ramparts, hair ablaze, lighting up the dusk of the seashore as the sun sets in the east.
Homer, “The Iliad,” translated by Robert Fagles (New York: Penguin Books, 1990), Book 18, pp. 468-475.
Neither Tom Bombadil nor Goldberry are in the movie, quite likely because the movie could not include everything in the book, and this is a side adventure of the Hobbits.
I find the discussion about Tom and Goldberry fascinating in its echoes and parallels with Christian thought. This blog proposes that, whatever we think Tom and Goldberry are, they have to be understood in their connection to each other:
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-...
Mod
https://thesymbolicworld.com/content/...
The topic is Ireland the Remnant. In it Richard Rohlin talks about how Ireland is at the end or edge of the world when compared to Jerusalem, which is its center. There was one interesting point he made specifically. Generally speaking, when a people moved from one locality to another they took their belief system and gods with them. The people who filled the vacated places brought their own. So at this particular locality the belief system changed. On an island that really isn't possible, so in Ireland there lingers a remnant of these previous myths and beliefs. This is why you have fairies and elves, etc., which were part of a mythological landscape deep in the past, still being present today. Even though he didn't mention Tolkien in this particular context, it did remind me of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry.
It was also interesting that some things Bruce pointed out about Iceland in his above comments Rohlin made in regards to Ireland.
Manny wrote: "So what are we to make of Tom Bombdil and Goldberry? They are definitely mysterious. My first reaction when I came to Goldberry inviting the four hobbits into the house was, oh my gosh, a female ch..."I apologize for being late to the party--I've been recovering from a nasty fall after which I lost the use of my right arm, which fractured just below the shoulder and left me with some deep dark bruises--
I'm still trying to catch up to the housework and other responsibilities during the past few months, though the fracture healed rather nicely (no surgery, and sling instead of cast) I spent three months with physical therapy, and a no-nonsense Nazi therapist who does good work (I offered up my pain for people who needed more help than I did.) I may not be able to catch up to any intelligent commentary, but I remember loving this trilogy 50 years ago and the characters that I liked best were the women, and I focused on the elf/human love story back then. I watched the movie when it came out, and was disappointed. I won't say how behind I am, but I am just now ready to read the comments.
Thank you, Manny for your usual brilliant summaries. I'm glad to be back.
I'm sorry, Madeleine! It's good that your fracture wasn't worse, but it still sounds like you've had a tough time
So glad you’re with us again, Madeleine. You always add insight and depth to every discussion.
Mod
I think I remember you mentioning you have read LOTR. Well then, look over the folders and comments we have made so far and add your thoughts. I'd love to read your perspective.
Thank you all. I've missed being here, but I am being more careful now--just a week or two before my fall, I was in my doc's office for the wellness check and the nurse commented, "Well, you're not a high risk for falls!" The irony. When I read this the first time, I must have skimmed through the hobbit chapters--all I remembered from that was Tom Bombadil, and the song--I don't remember him as larger than life, but I find him and Goldberry fascinating--lots of room for speculation about those two. And they do seem at least preternatural, if not supernatural, figures,
Madeleine wrote: "...Well, you're not a high risk for falls!" The irony..."lol!
Chapter 7: In the House of Tom Bombadil
When the hobbits get to Tom Bombdil’s house, they are greeted by a woman, Goldberry, who mysteriously tells them that she is “daughter of the River.” The hobbits are enchanted by her. They ask her who is Tom, and she replies that he is “the Master of wood, water, and hill.” When Tom walks in, he has the hobbits wash and sit down for supper. Afterwards, all tired they were led to a room with beds and quickly fell asleep.
Three of the hobbits had dreams that night. Frodo dreamt of wolves and an eagle that bore him away. Pippin dreamt of being trapped again in the willow tree. Merry dreamt of a flood overfilling the house. Only Sam did not dream but slept contented.
In the morning they found that it was raining, and they sat around with Tom telling them stories of the Old Forest. The he told them stories of the Great Barrows, followed by ancient tales from pre-memory. At one point, Frodo asked him, who he was? Tom replied that he was here before the Kings and Barrow-wights, and elves, and even the Dark Lord. When the rain ended, they had another supper, even better than the previous night’s.
After supper, Tom asked Frodo to see the ring, and Frodo handed it to him. Tom put it on his finger, and to everyone’s surprise he did not disappear. Tom handed the ring back to Frodo, and Frodo suspicious that it was not the true ring put it on his finger and he disappeared. After laughing about the disappearance, they all went back to the bedrooms for the night.
Chapter 8: Fog on the Barrow-Downs
After breakfast the next morning, the hobbits resumed their journey heading north. Up the first hill, Frodo realized he had not said goodbye to Goldberry and was about to turn around when she appeared toward the top of the hill. She bid farewell and blessed them. They continued, riding over the hills of the Barrow-Downs. Up and down the hills was slow going.
A fog rolled over the hills, and the hobbits felt trapped. The fog was so thick that it had darkened the sky. At one point Frodo realized the other three were not trailing behind him. When he called out to them only a cold, dark voice responded, and it seemed it came from a tall shadow. The shadow touched him and Frodo fainted.
When he came to, he found the other three hobbits lying beside him. The cold voice sang a deathly song, and its shadowy arm stretched toward Frodo. Frodo grabbed a sword and hacked at the arm. He remembered Tom Bombadil’s song and he sang it, and shortly Tom’s voice could be heard in the distance singing back. When Tom arrived, his magical song drove off the dark shadow.
With that, the other three hobbits came out of their stupor. Tom traveled with them for a while, and in the morning after breakfast Tom gave them the advice to head on the road to the town of Bree and get to an old inn called The Prancing Pony.
Chapter 9: At the Sign of the Prancing Pony
The hobbits come to Bree, the chief town of the region of Bree-land, a region of mixed hobbits and men. The Road ran through Bree and at the foot of a hill stood the Inn with the sign of the Prancing Pony. The Inn was run by Barliman Butterbur, a big folk man.
The hobbits did not receive a warm reception at the inn, but were led to a parlor room to rest and eat. After getting refreshed and rested, the hobbits joined the other guests in the big common room. There they got into discussions with the locals, a mix of hobbits, men, and dwarves. While the other hobbits were enjoying their conversation, Frodo noticed a strange looking man in the shadows against the wall listening intently and quietly smoking his pipe. Frodo was told that such men as that who roam about the countryside are called Rangers, and that particular man goes by the name Strider.
At one point, Strider came over to Frodo, who has been going by the name Mr. Underhill, and introduced himself. Strider told Frodo to restrain his fellow hobbits from talking too much. They had gone on about Bilbo Baggins and his disappearance from the Shire. Frodo realizing the danger of the conversations decided to distract by jumping on the table and talking and singing a song. It drew a loud cheer and applause, but Strider found it even worse than the loose talk of the other hobbits. He told “Mr. Baggins”—knowing his proper name—he would like to have a word with him, but Frodo put him off until later.
In the meantime, someone had seen Frodo just vanish, and Frodo reappearing dispelled that notion. It was now time for everyone to go onto bed, and, as they were going off, and Strider again came over to Frodo requesting a word with him.