Left Behind
discussion
its funny how they call this christian fiction...
Danielle wrote: "Kendra wrote: "He doesn't punish us because He wants to. He never has, and He never will. "
Then what is this book - Left Behind? Isn't it about all the terrible things that will happen according ..."
"Left Behind" is a humans researched version of what the end times - when God will allow Satan to take over the Earth for a 7-year period - will be like.
Then what is this book - Left Behind? Isn't it about all the terrible things that will happen according ..."
"Left Behind" is a humans researched version of what the end times - when God will allow Satan to take over the Earth for a 7-year period - will be like.
Molly wrote: "As an agnostic, there are things I enjoy about this book, but I just can't stand the main characters. I like the idea of a story taking place during the rise of the anti-christ, the years of tribul..."
Please. How can you possibly say that "no one was affected"? Of course they were! But that wasn't the main aim of these books. :(
Please. How can you possibly say that "no one was affected"? Of course they were! But that wasn't the main aim of these books. :(
Danielle wrote: "Kendra wrote: "He doesn't punish us because He wants to. He never has, and He never will. "
Then what is this book - Left Behind? Isn't it about all the terrible things that will happen according ..."
God will stop it. GOd does stop it. He only allows Satan SEVEN YEARS for reigning over the earth. Don't ask me why He allows it, but that how it is. Perhaps you can ask Him when you reach Heaven.
Then what is this book - Left Behind? Isn't it about all the terrible things that will happen according ..."
God will stop it. GOd does stop it. He only allows Satan SEVEN YEARS for reigning over the earth. Don't ask me why He allows it, but that how it is. Perhaps you can ask Him when you reach Heaven.
Will wrote: "Kendra wrote: "If you are getting your info. from the Bible, then you know that God is a God of love, and He is a God of Peace, and He loves each of us - in spite of our sins. He doesn't punish us ..."
Well, I can very well turn this right back to you. You're forcusing on ONLY the bad/negative things from the OT. What about all of the promises that occur in BOTH testaments?
Well, I can very well turn this right back to you. You're forcusing on ONLY the bad/negative things from the OT. What about all of the promises that occur in BOTH testaments?
Kendra wrote: "Danielle wrote: "Kendra wrote: "He doesn't punish us because He wants to. He never has, and He never will. "
Then what is this book - Left Behind? Isn't it about all the terrible things that wil..."
Well, Danielle, let me ask you: what do YOU think it is about? In my opinion, it describes what pain and suffering mankind has brought on himself since the beginning - when Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden.
Then what is this book - Left Behind? Isn't it about all the terrible things that wil..."
Well, Danielle, let me ask you: what do YOU think it is about? In my opinion, it describes what pain and suffering mankind has brought on himself since the beginning - when Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden.
Saved By Grace wrote: "Tim LaHaye was just taking much of what is written in Revelations and putting it in such a way as to what he thinks it would all look like/be like.
It doesn't mean it's right, it is only what he ..."
EXACTLY!! WELL-SAID!
It doesn't mean it's right, it is only what he ..."
EXACTLY!! WELL-SAID!
What in the world is with you people? You - and I, sadly, have joined you - are bickering like children!! Let's stop this right now. It's true, what was stated above--> this isn't the place for discussions about political or religious differences. We shouldn't be concerning ourselves so much with what the book is about and agreeing with it. We should be talking about how much the book impacted us. NOT BEING NEGATIVE. WE NEED TO BE POSITIVE.
Kendra wrote: "Xox wrote: "Kendra wrote: "Excuse me, "Will", but GOD doesn't torture us. WE torture us. SATAN tortures us. God? NEVER. He is a loving God, and if we - creatures with free will - DECIDE to go ..."Does God, because it seems like the places that need god the most, aren't really getting any of this goodness. North Korean interment camps where the people are treated as sub-humans. They are beaten, tottered, kept on the brink of starvation. Most of them are crippled from work injuries, frostbite, disease. They get one set of clothes that they wear until the day they die, then those close are given to the next batch of prisoners. They are forced to do dangerous slave labour, and their tortured if they they don't work fast enough. Thousands of people die in these camps a year, even children! You can't even justify that these people did anything all that bad considering there was a group of them that were sent there for trying to escape north Korea, and in some cases simply BEING TOO SHORT. Why doesn't god stop that? What could anyone possibly do to deserve that? What good are these people finding that isn't horribly out-shined by their hellish imprisonment? And most importantly, what lesson is this teaching them or us?
I'm sorry, Molly, it's late here, and I'm getting off line. I will answer this as soon as I can tomorrow. GOOD NIGHT, ALL
Kendra wrote: "Molly wrote: "As an agnostic, there are things I enjoy about this book, but I just can't stand the main characters. I like the idea of a story taking place during the rise of the anti-christ, the y..."I just felt like there should have been more feeling placed in to that. There should have complete total chaos. More people should have been inconsolable. This should have been way more important in the books, because it would have made me feel more for the characters, and it would have given a better sense that we were heading into a very dark time. Instead it's just kind of skimmed over. Airports and news papers are still running, bakeries are still open, colleges are still in session, etc. and al of hat seems really out of place and unrealistic.
I am not intending to get into any religious debate. When these books came out and were extremely popular, I decided to read them myself. I am sorry, but I could not get past the 4th chapter (and I read A LOT and give most books 150+ pages before I give up). I found the writing to be extremely sophomoric and could not get past the poor writing. On another board, we recently had a discussion about what people value most in their books: the quality writing or the story. My response was the story with the caveat that if the writing was bad, I would never make it to the story to find out. So...while the story is paramount, the writing must be adequate or I will never find out if the story is good or not . That was the case with the first book in this series. I could not get past the poor writing.
Karen wrote: "Amen Nancy."
And AMEN Karen.
And AMEN Karen.
Gabers wrote: "but it was written to scare the pants off of anyone that believes in Revelations.
Every generation has a fear of/desire for the Apocalypse. Somehow its implied that death and destruction will g..."
Where does it say that death and destruction will give closure? Pardon me if you think I'm being dense or something, but no where in the Bible does it say that by death does closure come. Death does not determine who you are or what you will decide. Death comes after YOU have decided.....either for or against the Lord.
Every generation has a fear of/desire for the Apocalypse. Somehow its implied that death and destruction will g..."
Where does it say that death and destruction will give closure? Pardon me if you think I'm being dense or something, but no where in the Bible does it say that by death does closure come. Death does not determine who you are or what you will decide. Death comes after YOU have decided.....either for or against the Lord.
god only allows satan 7 years? BUT HE STILL ALLOWS IT!!! Thus he's responsible, its god giving satan permission. Still gods fault. Why give him any time? Why not just say "no, I will not allow this heinous act"?Satan is not as powerful a being in these stories as god is, thus anything that satan does he is doing with gods blessing. Luckily its all fiction.
Oh, and Kendra, being the daughter of a preacher does not give you any more authority, or make you any more right. Just as being a preacher does not give your father any more authority, or any more right.
Hazel, I'd like to know if you have read all of the Left Behind books, or the Bible for that matter. GOd is a great and powerful Being; He doesn't have to explain Himself to us. We're merely here to live our lives for or against Him. We don't choose our lives - Satan wants to mess us up in every way imaginable.
And, I think you should all be aware that I'd be DEAD if not for God's saving grace; His love; the love and care given to me by family and friends who spent the time and money to come to where I live and visit me and my family; even the nurses and doctors. THEIR talents were used BY GOD to keep me alive.
And, I think you should all be aware that I'd be DEAD if not for God's saving grace; His love; the love and care given to me by family and friends who spent the time and money to come to where I live and visit me and my family; even the nurses and doctors. THEIR talents were used BY GOD to keep me alive.
I've read the bible. God is a narccicistic, psychopathic being that actively encourages genocide, slavery, rape sexism, racism and the sacrifice of children. I suspect that it is you who has never read it... or more to the point, only read the nice bits.And I'm disgusted that you attribute the talents of doctors etc to god. How dare you belittle their work in such a way, it makes you appear ungrateful
Kendra wrote: "Hazel, I'd like to know if you have read all of the Left Behind books, or the Bible for that matter. GOd is a great and powerful Being; He doesn't have to explain Himself to us. We're merely here..."Can you explain what you mean by "live our lives for or against [God]" please?
Molly wrote: "Kendra wrote: "Hazel, I'd like to know if you have read all of the Left Behind books, or the Bible for that matter. GOd is a great and powerful Being; He doesn't have to explain Himself to us. We..."
What I mean when I say that, Molly, is just that. We decide if we are going to live for God, or not. When we DO NOT, we're telling him that all of the blessings He wants to give each one of us aren't important enough for us to desert our worldly lives.
And that's just what our lives are, unless we accept Him into our heart. Worldly. Living according to the world, tell me, what has it done for you? how has it helped you? What good has come of it? Will that "good" last? All of the pain and suffering in the world is caused by sin - and Satan brought sin into the world by lying to Eve, who in turn sinned by eating the forbidden fruit. One rule to follow, and like so many children in our day, they couldn't resist.
What I mean when I say that, Molly, is just that. We decide if we are going to live for God, or not. When we DO NOT, we're telling him that all of the blessings He wants to give each one of us aren't important enough for us to desert our worldly lives.
And that's just what our lives are, unless we accept Him into our heart. Worldly. Living according to the world, tell me, what has it done for you? how has it helped you? What good has come of it? Will that "good" last? All of the pain and suffering in the world is caused by sin - and Satan brought sin into the world by lying to Eve, who in turn sinned by eating the forbidden fruit. One rule to follow, and like so many children in our day, they couldn't resist.
Hazel wrote: "I've read the bible. God is a narccicistic, psychopathic being that actively encourages genocide, slavery, rape sexism, racism and the sacrifice of children. I suspect that it is you who has never ..."
Hazel, I am not belittling them in the least. Doctors - using the talents that God gave them (wether knowingly or not) saved my life 9 years ago. I came close to dying, but the doctors used their talents to keep me alive. Over and over again, I might add.
Hazel, I am not belittling them in the least. Doctors - using the talents that God gave them (wether knowingly or not) saved my life 9 years ago. I came close to dying, but the doctors used their talents to keep me alive. Over and over again, I might add.
Prove that god gave them the talent. the doctors saved your life, not god. Thank them, not god.In fact. prove that god exists.
Hazel wrote: "Prove that god gave them the talent. the doctors saved your life, not god. Thank them, not god.
In fact. prove that god exists."
Oh....you want proof? Look around you, Hazel! Everything in Nature proclaims God's glory!! You can't deny that a baby's birth is miraculous (from conception until they come into the world. Something can and many times does happen to harm babies) And what about the microscopic differences in things? Somehow, we are here....no one can truly explain "why", except to say that what they think is "the truth". But in no way can we say that we were there when the earth came into existence. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you do. It's sad, but oh-so-true.
In fact. prove that god exists."
Oh....you want proof? Look around you, Hazel! Everything in Nature proclaims God's glory!! You can't deny that a baby's birth is miraculous (from conception until they come into the world. Something can and many times does happen to harm babies) And what about the microscopic differences in things? Somehow, we are here....no one can truly explain "why", except to say that what they think is "the truth". But in no way can we say that we were there when the earth came into existence. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you do. It's sad, but oh-so-true.
A baby is not miraculous, every ying yang on the planet can produce a baby every 9 months or so.I don't accept saying "look around you" as proof, as we are learning more and more about the world and universe around us everyday, and everything we learn is precluding the need for a creator, or any form of deity.
If god is so caring, and wants us to believe in him, why does he not reveal himself in a more obvious way? unless he wants us to fail when applying reason to the world and not finding him there.
Everything in natuire shows the wonder of physics, chemistry and biology, IO don't see god there, can you show him to me? where is god i all this, where is the evidence that it was made by him?
You claim I don't explain why we're here, but neither do you, you say nature is gods glory, how, how is it? How did god do it? Where is the evidence that god did? saying god did it doesn't make it so, you have to show how god did it and show the evidence of how god did it.
Show me evidence of gods existence, and make it amazing, because everything in nature has a natural explanation that precludes the need for a deity.
Also, why is it that you think you're right? what if you're following the wrong god? what if there is actually a pantheon? What if, like earlier religions believed, that the christian god is actually a demon? what makes your beliefs any more valid than a hindu's or a John Frum cargo cultists?
You don't see God, but you can see/feel the effects of His presence. You don't see the wind, do you? But you can still see the effects it has on everything around you.
I can measure the wind, I can even explain it to you if you want. Theres nothing mysterious about the wind. we have instruments that let us see the wind, hell I only need to light a fire, and watch the smoke, and I see the wind. I've heard that argument so many times, its getting boring.Show me evidence, verifiable, indisputable evidence.
Why doesn't god say "hear I am" if he wants us all to believe in him, why is he hiding?
Hazel wrote: "Prove that god gave them the talent. the doctors saved your life, not god. Thank them, not god.
In fact. prove that god exists."
#1> Xox, please stop swearing. Respecting others is one of the most important rules of maturity, don't you think?
#2> I never said that my being a preacher's daughter made me right. I'm only saying that I was raised hearing about the Bible. I've heard many different religious beliefs before, also. I chose to believe THE BIBLE. Not Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Evolution. I CHOSE to believe in GOD.
#3> Where's the evidence that CREATION is real? Well, let me see. EVERYTHING has a purpose. Trees provide shade, and food. Caves provide shelter. Rain provides nourishment for the plants (not to mention we need water to survive). FOOD> it sustains us, also.Do you need any more proof of God's existence?
In fact. prove that god exists."
#1> Xox, please stop swearing. Respecting others is one of the most important rules of maturity, don't you think?
#2> I never said that my being a preacher's daughter made me right. I'm only saying that I was raised hearing about the Bible. I've heard many different religious beliefs before, also. I chose to believe THE BIBLE. Not Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Evolution. I CHOSE to believe in GOD.
#3> Where's the evidence that CREATION is real? Well, let me see. EVERYTHING has a purpose. Trees provide shade, and food. Caves provide shelter. Rain provides nourishment for the plants (not to mention we need water to survive). FOOD> it sustains us, also.Do you need any more proof of God's existence?
you didn't chose to believe in god, you were indoctrinated from a very young age, and thus cannot see the value in other religions. If you'df been raised in a hindu household, you'd be hindu, if you'd been raised in a buddhist household you'd be buddhist. Are you saying, by the way,that you don't believe in evolution despite there being so much supporting evidence for it, that you could spend the rest of your life reading through it and looking at it, and not get through it all. And I mean real evidence that you can see, touch, and repeat, and verify.yes, I need you to show me god. All these other things, we can show how they evolved and why, and it all precludes the need for a creator. You're still not getting this. real evidence please, not this is beautiful, so god must have done it. Real evidence.
If swearing bothers you, by the way, tough shit, this is the internet, the forum of free expression, and the goodreads management don't care if you swear. If it offends you, thats your problem.
Kendra wrote: "Molly wrote: "Kendra wrote: "Hazel, I'd like to know if you have read all of the Left Behind books, or the Bible for that matter. GOd is a great and powerful Being; He doesn't have to explain Hims..."Can nonchristians live good, loving, unworldly lives without being christians?
I disagree with the idea that Adam and Eve actually did anything wrong. You can't really call them bad or disobedient when they had no knowledge of right and wrong before they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge. They didn't know what they were doing was harmful. As far as they were concerned what the snake told them (or in the older stories what Eve decided to do all on her own) was just as right as listening to what god wanted them to do.
Ah, but they did have a knowledge. God told them NOT to eat of that fruit, but they still did. A parent doesn't always tell their child "why" they should not do something, but they do tell their child not to. If their child chooses to disobey, then they have to face the consequances. You say that Adam and Eve can't be called disobedient because they didn't know. But God told them NOT to eat of that fruit. Because they did, they disobeyed. It's as simple as that.
Yes, I suppose that nonchristians can live good, unworldly lives, but without putting their faith and trust in God, it won't matter. Not a bit. In the end, God's judgment will prevail. The Left Behind series is a way for us to know what God's judgment will be like for all of those who remain on Earth after the rapture.
TEMPTATION......do you know what the definition of that word is?
Yes, I suppose that nonchristians can live good, unworldly lives, but without putting their faith and trust in God, it won't matter. Not a bit. In the end, God's judgment will prevail. The Left Behind series is a way for us to know what God's judgment will be like for all of those who remain on Earth after the rapture.
TEMPTATION......do you know what the definition of that word is?
molly, Kendra and I have been through that already, really its not worth it, she just can't grasp the idea that not having the capacity to understand something makes someone innocent of all charges, or that a god who is omniscient and omnipotent, as well as apparently omnibenevolent, has the ability to know everything that is to happen before it happens, thus things only happen the way that being wants them to, as such, god is malicious for putting the fruit where they could innocently eat it. She doesn't grasp that a child has the capacity to understand that when mummy says they musn't do something that it is wrong to then do it, but that adam and eve, in the story, did not have that capacity, as they didn't get it until they ate the fruit... which god knew they were going to do before he even created them. and even when a child does do something wrong, they are not treated like an adult committing a crime, they are given leniency. Adam and eve, in the story, were less than children in their capacity to understand.
She also can't grasp the idea that if a god would cast anyone into hell for the simple "crime" of not believing in him when there is no evidence for him, no matter how good that person actually is, that that makes the god malicious and evil. My moral outlook is better than the abrahamic god as he is presented in the torah, the bible and the koran.
She seems happier with the idea that a murderer can get into heaven as long as they accept jesus and god, than that someone who is good, but sees no reason to believe in god could do so.
Essentially, Kendra, what you've just said is that no matter what good you do, and no matter what legacy of honesty, charity and philanthropy you leave behind you, if you don't accept a mythical being, then you burn in hell. Thats abhorrent as an idea, and you're sick for thinking it.
If I tell a sparrow not to eat the bread I put out for the blackbirds, and that sparrow eats the bread, i cannot then judge the sparrow and punish it, as it doesn't have the capacity to understand that what I've said means doing it makes it wrong. Its the same thing. God made adam and eve without the capacity to understand that if he says no, that makes it wrong, and then is petty enough to punish them when they do something he said no to. He knew they didn't understand, he knew they were going to do it before he told them no, before he made them, before he made the world, but he didn't try to prevent it , he ensured it happened. It was his plan that it should happen, that malicious and petty god is the bad guy in this story.
Its so lucky really, that its all a fairy story, because if such a being as god existed, we'd all be fucked.
"Yes, I suppose that nonchristians can live good, unworldly lives, but without putting their faith and trust in God, it won't matter. Not a bit. In the end, God's judgment will prevail. The Left Behind series is a way for us to know what God's judgment will be like for all of those who remain on Earth after the rapture." O.K. I was not going to get into the religious bit, but I just do not understand this rationale. I remember speaking about this with my pastor when I was around 9 and about to be baptized. What about children who die as infants or toddlers? They never had a chance to learn about God. What about people who live(d) in countries that were not Christian and they have/had no access to the Bible or believers? I have always felt (ever since I was a child and I am now 53) that the passage that says, "no one gets to the father except through me" means that Christ tells us how to behave. We are supposed to love one another. We are supposed to help the sick, the old, the children, etc. and that when we die, HE will judge whether or not we lived the life he would approve of. Merely believing is not enough. Baptism is not a "get out of jail free card." In James, a passage says, "faith without works is dead." This means that TRUE faith manifests itself in the works Jesus told us to engage in. If we do not engage in these works, then our faith is dead/false. Therefore, one who never had a chance to learn about God or become a Christian or rejects the materialism of organized religion can still go to heaven. As for the "rapture" it was only proposed and popularized in 1827. Therefore, for 1800 years, people did not believe in a rapture. When Paul was writing his epistles, he believed the end of the world was coming in his lifetime. He even told people not to have sexual relations because it was better to be chaste for the coming of Christ, but if they did they needed to marry rather than burn. He felt the dead rising would be those Christians who had already died and then Christ would return and take the living believers. Paul was obviously wrong since here we are 2000 years later and the world is still turning. Christ warned us about legalism. He admonished the Pharisees for it and called them vipers and hypocrites.
Hazel wrote: "molly, Kendra and I have been through that already, really its not worth it, she just can't grasp the idea that not having the capacity to understand something makes someone innocent of all charges..."
I'm sorry you think this way, Hazel. I'm not going to stick around to continue being attacked, either. I regret even entering into this conversation. BTW....no, I don't think we did talk about this. YOU argued, I defended. We DID NOT "talk/discuss" in a civilized manner. So, in essence, we didn't "talk" about it.
I'm sorry you think this way, Hazel. I'm not going to stick around to continue being attacked, either. I regret even entering into this conversation. BTW....no, I don't think we did talk about this. YOU argued, I defended. We DID NOT "talk/discuss" in a civilized manner. So, in essence, we didn't "talk" about it.
He even told people not to have sexual relations because it was better to be chaste for the coming of ChristSnigger... sorry, this sentence just took my brain into wrong directions ;P
Kendra wrote: "Ah, but they did have a knowledge. God told them NOT to eat of that fruit, but they still did. A parent doesn't always tell their child "why" they should not do something, but they do tell their ..."But they had absolutely no concept of right or wrong. That's like saying a baby is selfish for crying during a movie. They didn't know disobeying god was bad, they had no concept of bad or disobedience, just like a baby or a toddler doesn't. They had to be taught it. The Snake told them to eat the fruit, so they ate it. He put up as compelling of an argument about why they should eat as god did about why they shouldn't.
Also, the whole judgement against nonchristians is one of my biggest issues with a lot of forms of christianity. I was raised in a very liberal Catholic Church and house hold. In my church we were taught that all the good people went to heaven, and all bad people went to hell. You had to actively be malicious and hateful and want to hurt people to get to hell. When I learned that there were other sects that said all nonchristians would go to hell I was flabbergasted. Why would something that is loving punish good people just because they don't believe in him? I wouldn't condemn someone to a eternity of torment when the only thing they really did wrong was not worship me or not believe in me. That seems so cruel and petty. Especially when there are people who do believe in god who have done so much worse.
Kendra wrote: "Hazel wrote: "molly, Kendra and I have been through that already, really its not worth it, she just can't grasp the idea that not having the capacity to understand something makes someone innocent ..."well, i tried to talk and then you ranted. Lets get this right, I said nothing that was an attack on your person, but you did tell everyone else that they were wrong. I'm willing to change my mind if you provide evidence for your position, you get uppity and avoid the issue. I've asked you over and over to change my mind, instead, once again, you're leaving. Don't be sorry for me thinking this way, my mind is free of religious indoctrination, and anti-intellectual constraints. Have a nice day now, won't ya.
Mary wrote: ""Yes, I suppose that nonchristians can live good, unworldly lives, but without putting their faith and trust in God, it won't matter. Not a bit. In the end, God's judgment will prevail. The Left Be..."
Look, I don't pretend to understand all of God's reasoning. All I really know is that He does what He does for a reason. From what I have been taught by people who know - who have spent years and years learning about the Bible and God and all of those things - that children below a certain age - who cannot possibly comprehend about Salvation - will automatically go to Heaven. I'm not suer what that age is, and it really doesn't matter, because we need to be teaching ALL of the children about God. That's why we have Sunday schools.
Look, I don't pretend to understand all of God's reasoning. All I really know is that He does what He does for a reason. From what I have been taught by people who know - who have spent years and years learning about the Bible and God and all of those things - that children below a certain age - who cannot possibly comprehend about Salvation - will automatically go to Heaven. I'm not suer what that age is, and it really doesn't matter, because we need to be teaching ALL of the children about God. That's why we have Sunday schools.
How do they know? The only source they have is the bible, and thats a dubious source at best. see thats the problem with religion, is that it claims to know, and then refuses to hear any evidence to the contrary, of which there is a vast plethora.kendra, do all of the prophecies in the bible come true?
Kendar wrote: "SATAN tortures us." Ah, could I just point out that according to the actual words of the bible (not what some people merely *think* are the words of the bible), Satan is not ruler of hell, he is *imprisoned* in it.
After all, why would God reward the leader of the rebellion by giving him kingdom of his own to rule?
SO... if Satan is being blamed on the ills that befall mankind, that leaves us only 3 possibilities:
1) God, supposedly omnipotent, can't build a secure prison
or
2) That Satan is more powerful that God, and thus god cannot succesfully imprison him.
or
3) That God could have successfully imprisoned Satan, but deliberately gives him enough free range to torture humanity.
I would be intrigued to know your thoughts on this, Kendra, if you are still here.
Kendra wrote: "Where's the evidence that CREATION is real? Well, let me see. EVERYTHING has a purpose. Trees provide shade, and food. Caves provide shelter. Rain provides nourishment for the plants (not to mention we need water to survive). FOOD> it sustains us, also.Do you need any more proof of God's existence?"My word! You are right! It is so clear now. The world is so perfectly created for us that it is painstaking obvious that it was, in fact, created by the most divine Brahma, acting upon the commands of Lord Vishnu, when awoken from his slumber in the coils of the mighty serpent by the throbbing energetic Aum.
Or is that not what you meant?
Also, the whole judgement against nonchristians is one of my biggest issues with a lot of forms of christianity. I was raised in a very liberal Catholic Church and house hold. In my church we were taught that all the good people went to heaven, and all bad people went to hell. You had to actively be malicious and hateful and want to hurt people to get to hell. When I learned that there were other sects that said all nonchristians would go to hell I was flabbergasted. Why would something that is loving punish good people just because they don't believe in him? I wouldn't condemn someone to a eternity of torment when the only thing they really did wrong was not worship me or not believe in me. That seems so cruel and petty. Especially when there are people who do believe in god who have done so much worse." As I stated in an earlier post...this thinking is akin to the Pharisees who judged Christ for letting his disciples gather food on the Sabbath. He was against such legalistic thinking and railed against the Pharisees who clung to it.
As for Adam and Eve, the tree they got the fruit from was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. How could they know what they were doing if they had not eaten from the tree and gotten the knowledge it imparted? The story of Adam and Eve is just that...a demonstrative story. The Gnostics had a very different version of Adam and Eve. That tradition has Adam declaring that they knowledge they gained made them more powerful than the creator, but they lost that knowledge when a "sub-creator" separated Adam from Eve. Another tradition says that Adam and Eve were created to defeat Satan. Many also believe that the story of Adam and Eve is derived from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh.
Kendra wrote: "Mary wrote: ""Yes, I suppose that nonchristians can live good, unworldly lives, but without putting their faith and trust in God, it won't matter. Not a bit. In the end, God's judgment will prevail..."If God is all powerful NO ONE understands, so how can you be sure what you were taught is correct? We all see through that glass darkly. We also do not need to go to some Sunday School to learn about God. The Bible says that "church" is wherever two or more gather in his name. I have done quite a bit of study during my 53 years on this earth and one thing I have learned: Anyone who claims they KNOW what God wants is automatically dismissed by me. I do not know the mind of the creator and no one else does either.
Hazel wrote: "How do they know? The only source they have is the bible, and thats a dubious source at best. see thats the problem with religion, is that it claims to know, and then refuses to hear any evidence t..."Plus the Bible was canonized as a purely political book. The Roman emperor Constantine (who was ironically a pagan) convened the Council of Nicea in the 4th century to unite all Romans under a common religion. Bishops came from all over and VOTED on which books would be included. Revelations almost did not make it because it was considered too apocalyptic. Many books that were in circulation at that time were destroyed so they would not compete with the new canon. The Gospel of Mary of Magdala was most definitely not included since it elevated Mary to the position of Christ's highest apostle. Those men could not let THAT stand.
Kendra wrote: "Where's the evidence that CREATION is real? Well, let me see. EVERYTHING has a purpose. Trees provide shade, and food. Caves provide shelter. Rain provides nourishment for the plants (not to mention we need water to survive). FOOD> it sustains us, also.Do you need any more proof of God's existence?""My word! You are right! It is so clear now. The world is so perfectly created for us that it is painstaking obvious that it was, in fact, created when the black winged Nyx laid her golden egg, from which Eros was born, dividing the shell of which half became the sky, and half become the earth. It is why Eros made the sky, which he called Uranus, to fall in love with the earth, which he called Gaia, so that they could produce many children who were also gods, it was they who bore Zeus, who then set Prometheus to work creating mankind so that they could populate this world that they had created for them.
Or is that not what you meant?
Mary wrote: "Hazel wrote: "How do they know? The only source they have is the bible, and thats a dubious source at best. see thats the problem with religion, is that it claims to know, and then refuses to hear ..."Yeah, I know the council of nicaea, its a fun one, isn't it. I love that Christianity as it stands was initially created at the whim of man who was a follower of Sol Invictus until he died. and why? He wanted to be able to control the spread of this new religion.
Lol at thinking Evolution and religion are mutually exclusive. While I think Evolution--which is a proven scientific fact based on the scientific Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection--is another piece of evidence that a supernatural entity is not necessary for life, it is not mutually exclusive from religion. In fact, one of the leading witnesses for evolution in the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial, Dr. Ken Miller, is a Christian. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK0CYZ...Your denial of the fact of evolution is a testament to your ignorance. I'm surprised you can deny it openly and not be ashamed.
Kendra wrote: "Well, let me see. EVERYTHING has a purpose. Trees provide shade, and food. Caves provide shelter. Rain provides nourishment for the plants (not to mention we need water to survive). FOOD> it sustains us, also.Do you need any more proof of God's existence? "
How is any of this proof of a creator? What about the food that doesn't sustain, but can poison? What about those millions of children who die every year from starvation? How are they being sustained? A pretty pitiful attempt to provide evidence of a creator. If this is your evidence, then your creator is a capricious, malevolent, and, most importantly, incompetent being.
If this is all you can come up with, then please, for all of our sake, admit what this really is: faith. Believing without evidence, and believing in spite of the evidence to the contrary.
Mary wrote: "Kendra wrote: "Mary wrote: ""Yes, I suppose that nonchristians can live good, unworldly lives, but without putting their faith and trust in God, it won't matter. Not a bit. In the end, God's judgme..."
You are right about one thing. NO ONE knows what our Creator is thinking. NO ONE knows what He knows. It's all a matter of faith, really. Some people have accused me of having blind faith because I don't know everything. But they don't know everything either, and yet they do not believe in God. In my opinion, it's the same principle. I don't know everything, but neither do they.
You are right about one thing. NO ONE knows what our Creator is thinking. NO ONE knows what He knows. It's all a matter of faith, really. Some people have accused me of having blind faith because I don't know everything. But they don't know everything either, and yet they do not believe in God. In my opinion, it's the same principle. I don't know everything, but neither do they.
Yes, we don't know everything, but what we don;'t then do is fill our ignorance with stories of a mythical being. We are happy with "I don't know, but maybe one day we will", rather than"I don't know, so it must be god".
Kendra wrote: "You are right about one thing. NO ONE knows what our Creator is thinking. NO ONE knows what He knows. It's all a matter of faith, really. Some people have accused me of having blind faith because I don't know everything. But they don't know everything either, and yet they do not believe in God. In my opinion, it's the same principle. I don't know everything, but neither do they."So how can you make declarations that non-Christians will not go to heaven?
Hazel, you accuse me of not choosing to believe in God - something I didn't do until I was 12 years old. 12 years growing up in a preacher's home seems like a long time to me, don't you agree?
And if I didn't choose to believe of my own free will, then I'd say it goes the same way for you, as well. Is it YOUR choice NOT to believe in God? Or is it because you have not been taught the things of God and you were "trained" to ignore Him? If I've been "trained" to follow Christ, then you've been "trained" to NOT follow Christ.
And if I didn't choose to believe of my own free will, then I'd say it goes the same way for you, as well. Is it YOUR choice NOT to believe in God? Or is it because you have not been taught the things of God and you were "trained" to ignore Him? If I've been "trained" to follow Christ, then you've been "trained" to NOT follow Christ.
I can't get over the fact that the Bible is supposedly the divinely inspired word of God, you would think a book written by God would be, I dunno, maybe a little wiser? Less ridiculous? Something?
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
The Magic of Reality: How We Know What's Really True (other topics)
In His Image (other topics)
Birth of an Age (other topics)
Acts of God (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence, and Power (other topics)The Magic of Reality: How We Know What's Really True (other topics)
In His Image (other topics)
Birth of an Age (other topics)
Acts of God (other topics)
More...
Also, something that really really bugged me while reading these books: How come no one reacted to the billions of people that disappeared. Every child on the planet just vanished, and no one seems to be that effected!