Left Behind
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its funny how they call this christian fiction...
message 1451:
by
Will
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rated it 2 stars
Sep 18, 2014 12:38PM
Yeah, it's dogma that I find perverse.
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Glynda wrote: "I strongly believe that God wants all of us to have the freedom to decide what we believe. Although, I do feel sorry for the ones that do not explore their options."First of all: WE CANNOT DECIDE WHAT WE BELIEVE IN. Belief is not volitional. If your faith is an act of your will try and stop believing in God for 5 minutes. Can you?
Second of all: If you are a Christian how can you believe God wants you to decide anything? If you are a Christian you must believe it is all decided for you from the start. God is omniscient. He knew whether you would go to heaven or hell even before you were born.
Maria, I like your comment on god's fan club that drives you crazy. If I was god, I would have made everything right in the first place and there would be no such thing as sin. I would want my creation to worship, not out of fear, but out of joy because they were wonderfully and beautifully made! I would not make a tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden and command them to NOT eat of it! Why would I do that? If I did not want my created beings to eat of it, I WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THAT TREE!
Giansar said: "WE CANNOT DECIDE WHAT WE BELIEVE IN."Wait, what? Of course you can. Sorry, but I think that is the silliest comment I've seen on any thread on Goodreads...!
Maria wrote: "Giansar said: "WE CANNOT DECIDE WHAT WE BELIEVE IN."Wait, what? Of course you can. Sorry, but I think that is the silliest comment I've seen on any thread on Goodreads...!"
Really? It's quite accurate and consistent with science/neuroscience. Can you choose to believe that Zeus exists right now? You can choose to make an effort, but belief isn't a light switch you can flip or clothes you can change on a whim.
Maria wrote: "Wait, what? Of course you can."I assume you conducted the little experiment I proposed and succeeded - i.e. you just of your god-given free will stopped believing in God for 5 minutes.
Well, I guess I am silly then.
I used to believe in the Trinity - was raised Catholic. Then did some research and now don't believe it. I DECIDED not to believe it. My DECISION. True or not - doesn't matter. I DECIDED what I believed in and that wasn't it.
Maria wrote: "I used to believe in the Trinity - was raised Catholic. Then did some research and now don't believe it. I DECIDED not to believe it. My DECISION. True or not - doesn't matter. I DECIDED what ..."You chose to assess the evidence and do the research, yes. This doesn't refute the fact that you can't believe on a whim. Now that you don't believe in the Trinity, could you choose to really and truly believe in it again for just say 5 minutes? You could choose to reassess the evidence again, but unless that evidence changes your mind, you aren't going to be able to just choose to believe in it again.
If I asked you to think of a city, do you choose which ones pop into your head? What about the ones that didn't appear in your mind? Did you consciously discard the options that you didn't even consider? This thought experiment is to show you that we are our thought processes which just happen based on a causal chain. You cannot decide what your next thought is going to be any more than you can decide to believe in Zeus for a day.
I understand your theory. I don't agree with it - I don't BELIEVE what you say is fact. You speak as if it is, but at the end of the day it's your opinion. Opinions are like a@#holes, everybody's got one.
Maria wrote: "I understand your theory. I don't agree with it - I don't BELIEVE what you say is fact. You speak as if it is, but at the end of the day it's your opinion. Opinions are like a@#holes, everybody's..."Not an opinion, it's based on evidence in the real world and in neuroscience and in experimentation. Can you believe in Zeus for 5 minutes? That's a real experiment you can make.
People don't believe without reason, just like you didn't just decide to stop believing in the trinity. You researched and came to a conclusion based on what your brain reasoned must be true. Have you ever heard the answer "I don't know" to the question "why do you believe in 'X'?" Nope, people always give reasons (even if it's bad reasons) because that's what a brain requires, some type of reason whether it's based on bad evidence or not.
Here's an experiment to prove me wrong: Tonight, I want you to believe, truly believe, in Allah. And tomorrow, switch it up with Vishnu. Pray to them and really feel their presence in your life (shouldn't be hard to do if you can really choose to believe). Then go back to believing whatever it is you believed before and tell me how it went.
Can you believe in something that you can't make sense of? And then can you force yourself to make sense of it in order to believe it?
Will wrote: "Can you believe in something that you can't make sense of? And then can you force yourself to make sense of it in order to believe it?"Cool experiment - as I said, I can see what you're saying. But what you said here is key, I think.
There are so many things that people believe in that even to them do not make sense - they force themselves to make sense of it, or tell themselves "this is something that we are not meant to understand" (favorite phrase of Catholics) - and believe it anyway.
Maria wrote: "Will wrote: "There are so many things that people believe in that even to them do not make sense - they force themselves to make sense of it, or tell themselves "this is something that we are not meant to understand" (favorite phrase of Catholics) - and believe it anyway."That doesn't remove reason from their belief, though. In your example, they have made sense of what they don't understand. If someone truly believed it is unreasonable that the sacrament literally turns into Jesus' flesh, they wouldn't believe it. But since it is reasonable to them that God could do such a thing, and they believe in the words of the Bible, then it makes sense to them.
Saying "I don't understand, but I believe in God and he tells me in His book that it is this way" is that person making sense of what they don't understand and further validating their beliefs with reason.
Again, there is no need to flesh out these arguments, although I'm perfectly willing to. More simply, you can try my experiment.
There are other interesting experiments done in the actual lab where they hook up a brain to EEG, MRI, fMRI, PET, etc. machines, and it's been shown that the brain knows a decision you are making up to 7 seconds before you even realize it.
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/...
I can provide more resources because this is a subject I'm very fascinated in and have researched heavily.
Maria wrote: "I used to believe in the Trinity - was raised Catholic. Then did some research and now don't believe it. I DECIDED not to believe it."No you didn't decide. You discovered evidence which made you stop believing. Forced you to stop believing. After you discovered the evidence that had convinced you to stop believing you couldn't possibly make yourself start believing in the Trinity again, no matter how you tried.
I hope I'm expressing myself at least somewhat comprehensively - English is not my native tongue.
Anyway Maria... what about my "Second of all". Could you please address that? Because for me it is the real deal breaker here.
Ok, Giansar. You said: "Second of all: If you are a Christian how can you believe God wants you to decide anything? If you are a Christian you must believe it is all decided for you from the start. God is omniscient. He knew whether you would go to heaven or hell even before you were born."Yes, that is a deal breaker. I don't know. If God knew the person he was creating was going to be Jack the Ripper, killing and maiming many people...why create this creature in the first place?
Either (1) the omnicient theory is bunk and free will came in to play or (2) God is a horrible creature who didn't care that he was creating a monster, even took delight in it.
Ok, Christians, which is/was it?
I guess this throws the theory of this being a BOOK club out the window, huh? :-) But while you are on the subject, yes, Maria, I totally agree with you. If god was all-knowing and omniscient, why make man knowing he is going to sin anyway? Doesn't make sense to me! That is how deep religion has brainwashed people. I get mocked because I read the bible as fiction, and that's all. There is way too many errors and impossible stories in that book to be true! I mean, a talking serpent and talking ass? Even Paul said when I grew up, I put away childish things...things meaning imaginary things(like when you had an imaginary friend when you were a child) like spirits and gods, etc. Come on people, grow up and get facts.
I personally have no problems with people's beliefs ad long as they don't hurt other people in order to proliferate them. The problem with Christians is that instead of embracing their faith as it is, paradoxical and illogical, they often try to apply logic and common sense to it going so far as to invent pseudoscience. If people want to believe in creation instead of evolution then let them. But for the love of God let them not call it scientific creationism (because it has nothing to do with science) and let them not impose it on school children, especially as a viable alternative to evolution.
Maria wrote: "Jeffery - I don't know if you're crazy or not, but that's how I read Robert's comment!I don't know if humans in general will ever "grow out" of religion. Some people need validation - the feelin..."
Belief can be something people grow in but is not the way that you are expressing. And if anyone should blame God for anything wrong that has happened in their life needs to grow a little in their faith.
Also to know that there are tough things in life but that God is in control is a real comfort. That while we may not understand there is a way to get through and to be guided through all He wants is to help us on the journey in life. Also that we do not know for the moment why things are happening, sometimes we see how God does things and always works them for good even when the world seems to not make sense.
Maria wrote: "I understand your theory. I don't agree with it - I don't BELIEVE what you say is fact. You speak as if it is, but at the end of the day it's your opinion. Opinions are like a@#holes, everybody's..."Will is correct. It isn't opinion. It's actually scientific based.
CJ wrote: "Also to know that there are tough things in life but that God is in control is a real comfort."You don't know. You believe.
CJ wrote: "And if anyone should blame God for anything wrong that has happened in their life needs to grow a little in their faith."
In the "Left Behind" series God sends all these horrible tribulations upon mankind. Who's to blame for that then?
Anthony said: "Will is correct. It isn't opinion. It's actually scientific based."I don't believe everything a scientist tells me any more than I believe everything a religious zealot tells me.
This "theory" is subjective at best.
You can actually look up the evidence, though :)I'm just repeating what experiments have shown, not a personal opinion or the opinion of one scientist.
A religious zealot will not provide evidence of their claims.
Maria wrote: "This "theory" is subjective at best."Have you tried the simple thought experiment I proposed?
Have you tried to will yourself into believing in something you don't or the other way around? If believing in something is your decision, expression of your free will, you should succeed without a problem. It's as simple as that.
Maria wrote: "Anthony said: "Will is correct. It isn't opinion. It's actually scientific based."I don't believe everything a scientist tells me any more than I believe everything a religious zealot tells me. ..."
Proceed as you will. Be well.
Giansar wrote: "In the "Left Behind" series God sends all these horrible tribulations upon mankind. Who's to blame for that then?"God has given man a long time to believe in Him. He will provide safety and comfort to those in need but the world has rejected Him and He holds back before sending His judgment or wrath on mankind. This series gives a fictional but interesting view on that span of time. Why shouldn't we believe a God that gives us the choice to believe but then shows such grace, mercy, and things hard to describe that are amazing once we do?
We need to give up our silly ways and realize we still need Him. And God is using this series to wake up people. We deserve to just perish though he gives us time, a few years, to see our days are numbered and that we need Him.
It seems silly to believe in a imaginary "pie in the sky". It seems odd that a "loving" god kills millions in his name, either through war, or pestilence, and our ways are silly?
CJ wrote: "God has given man a long time to believe in Him. He will provide safety and comfort to those in need but the world has rejected Him and He holds back before sending His judgment or wrath on mankind. This series gives a fictional but interesting view on that span of time. Why shouldn't we believe a God that gives us the choice to believe but then shows such grace, mercy, and things hard to describe that are amazing once we do?We need to give up our silly ways and realize we still need Him. And God is using this series to wake up people. We deserve to just perish though he gives us time, a few years, to see our days are numbered and that we need Him. ..."
I know you mean well CJ, but this post almost made me gag. We need God? Well, if there is a Christian God, then I would expect he needs us too. Not much point in being a deity without people to worship you. Grace and mercy? Where was the mercy when 6 million Jews and 9 million political and sociological undesirables perished in the Holocaust? Where was the grace in Jericho? In the crusades? The history of the Christian God is one filled with murder and destruction. When you boil the religion down to its most basic level, the religion is one based on fear. Believe or go to hell. When you base your entire belief system on a political document that is basically a series of compromises in the decision of what to include and what to exclude, that seems to be a rather tenuous foundation. Fear doesn't work with me. If you can convince me without resorting to circular logic, have at it.
I used to feel like CJ - thinking that God was allowing wickedness and suffering for his own reasons - such as proving his sovereignty - and that if we stayed strong and worshipped him we would be blessed by him.I now agree more with Mary. I realize that if there is a God, then he deserves to be worshipped by his creation, namely humans - but why allow his creation to suffer so horribly just to prove a point?....that you are the Supreme of the Universe and you will make sure everyone knows it.
It's egomaniacal and cruel.
Maria wrote: "I used to feel like CJ - thinking that God was allowing wickedness and suffering for his own reasons - such as proving his sovereignty - and that if we stayed strong and worshipped him we would be..."I just have a very hard time with the concept of "love me or die."
Maria wrote: "I now agree more with Mary. I realize that if there is a God, then he deserves to be worshipped by his creation, namely humans - but why allow his creation to suffer so horribly just to prove a point?....that you are the Supreme of the Universe and you will make sure everyone knows it."I like to mirror the attitude of this quote:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
I'm unsure of who said it, although it's often misattributed to Marcus Aurelius. I like it regardless.
Will wrote: "Maria wrote: "I now agree more with Mary. I realize that if there is a God, then he deserves to be worshipped by his creation, namely humans - but why allow his creation to suffer so horribly just ..."Great quote Will.
Me too. I understand that a creator would want his creation to obey, love and worship him. I was always taught that he wanted them to choose to do it vs. just being a robot and doing it because they were programmed to - a conscious choice when there are other choices available.The problem I have with that is - we were created with a rebellious streak, with free will, with vulnerabilities....almost like we are being set up to fail - with a propensity for doing the wrong thing - then being punished when we do it.
Maria wrote: "Me too. I understand that a creator would want his creation to obey, love and worship him. I was always taught that he wanted them to choose to do it vs. just being a robot and doing it because they were programmed to - a conscious choice when there are other choices available...."And yet, most of us WERE programmed to believe from the beginning of our lives. How hard it is to actually exercise free will when indoctrination is the norm.
No problem! I really like it too. I wish I could locate who said it, but any search I try just says it's misattributed to Marcus Aurelius. Oh well the words ring true to me regardless of who may have first said it.
CJ wrote: "Why shouldn't we believe a God that gives us the choice to believe"God does not give us a CHOICE to believe. Belief is a result of cognitive process not an act of volition.
You cannot freely decide to or make yourself, if you will, believe in something.
That is why the whole concept of salvation depending on faith is so preposterous.
CJ wrote: "God has given man a long time to believe in Him. He will provide safety and comfort to those in need but the world has rejected Him and He holds back before sending His judgment or wrath on mankind."
He would had had to be a petty deity indeed to be laying his wrath even on children too small to grasp the concept of god and faith.
Thank you Mary for your feedback. I felt that I was the only atheist here or at least someone who thinks believing in an "imaginary being" is silly!
"Many are called, but few are chosen." Most here are either not wanted by a tripartite God or refuse to answer His beckonings. They are denied salvation. Those of us who follow the Lord are admonished to witness to unbelievers, but the lion's share of our work will be fruitless. As the Left Behind book indicates, the initial Rapture will whisk away the believing church, leaving many to answer the question "Why?". THEN, as the book series also indicates, the REALLY hard decisions begin. Though it will be gruesome, I'm eagerly looking forward to this seminal time frame, either from my temporaty mortal form, or from an ethereal perch.
Jeffery wrote: "Thank you Mary for your feedback. I felt that I was the only atheist here or at least someone who thinks believing in an "imaginary being" is silly!"Sorry Jeffrey, but I am not an atheist. I believe there is something beyond this world, I just do not think it has any reality to what is depicted by organized religion.
Robert wrote: ""Many are called, but few are chosen." Most here are either not wanted by a tripartite God or refuse to answer His beckonings. They are denied salvation. Those of us who follow the Lord are admonis..."If there is a rapture, then let it happen soon.
Robert wrote: ""Many are called, but few are chosen." Most here are either not wanted by a tripartite God or refuse to answer His beckonings. They are denied salvation. Those of us who follow the Lord are admonis..."Let me guess Robert...You are a recent convert. You had some type of crisis in your life (addiction, divorce, death, etc.) that brought you to your lowest point. You "found" religion and because it "cured you" you feel the need to tell everyone about it.
Robert wrote: "As the Left Behind book indicates, the initial Rapture will whisk away the believing church, leaving many to answer the question "Why?"."
If there is God and he is indeed the entity described in books such as Left Behind or Underground Zealot then maybe following Satan is not such a bad idea. Seeing how this loving and merciful God treats mankind in Left Behind and Underground Zealot I'm not quite looking forward to being entertained in his heaven.
Robert wrote: "Those of us who follow the Lord are admonished to witness to unbelievers, but the lion's share of our work will be fruitless."
But it is not the fault of unbelievers that the believers are unable to convince them to believe. Yet they are the ones that will be denied salvation. There's another piece of God's justice for you.
Robert said: ....Those of us who follow the Lord are admonished to witness to unbelievers,...."The only religions I know of that actually evangelize from door to door are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Which one of those are you, Robert, because if you're not either, then you are not following the command to "go therefore and make disciples" (Matt. 28:19).
And I'm curious, Robert, about your opinion on Matt 6:9-11 - the Lord's Prayer where it says about God "your will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven". Also on Psalm 37:29 "the righteous themselves will possess the EARTH and they will reside forever UPON IT."
Doesn't sound like we're going to heaven to me.
And if you believe John 5:28-29, then you believe in a resurrection - where are we resurrected to if we are already at our heavenly destination as soon as we die?
I thought this topic concerned the Left Behind series - that's what I was discussing and, of course, that has religious overtomes being based on the Book of Revelation in Scripture. Funny how all you nonbelievers tell me how I have to behave as a Christian. All I'm aware of is that I must earnestly believe Jesus is the Son of God and was killed and resurrected so that my soul may be saved. Everything else is pure gravy.
Robert wrote: "I thought this topic concerned the Left Behind series - that's what I was discussing and, of course, that has religious overtomes being based on the Book of Revelation in Scripture. Funny how all y..."Nice attempt at backpedaling.
Robert wrote: "I thought this topic concerned the Left Behind series - that's what I was discussing and, of course, that has religious overtomes being based on the Book of Revelation in Scripture. Funny how all y..."I know what the topic is - but you professed your religious beliefs and as a formerly religious person, I'm curious as to your beliefs on certain concepts that I had a hard time with.
You yourself said that "those of us who follow the Lord are admonished to witness to unbelievers" - so is that gravy?
Believing is not enough - the Bible says that the demons believe - faith without works is dead - also in the Bible.
You mention that Jesus is the Son of God. Does that mean you don't believe in the Trinity - i.e. that Jesus is God himself?
Also the concept of "once saved, always saved" doesn't really make sense to me either. So if you earnestly believe the Jesus story and become "saved", you're good to pretty much live and do as you want..."?
Robert, I'm not picking on you at all, I just wanted to discuss some religious teachings with someone who professes to be religious, particularly Christian.
Your thoughts and opinions on the topics I brought up are welcomed, as are anyone else's.
Thanks.
My take on the whole debate. I refuse to use the words impossible, fairy tales, insane ramblings, etc. etc. in regard to religion. The universe is estimated to be over 13 billion years old and we as a species have only been around for about 200,000 years of that give or take because we can't even determine an exact age on that yet. To assume that I myself or anyone else on this planet has the absolute knowledge that there can be with 100% certainty no intelligent design involved with the creation of not just life on our planet, but any life anywhere is simply arrogant. In my mind that is like an ant suddenly declaring it knows how to build a nuclear bomb. While organized religion may have come about more because of politics than an actual belief, I think that somewhere, someone (or many someones) had similar thoughts and told them around the campfire until they were eventually written down. Is any of it true? Does anything I said make sense? How the hell should I know. I'm just a guy who likes a good story.
Yes, Maria, admonishments are gravy, not necessities for salvation. But, as you mentioned, faith without works is dead so the Lord puts missions on your shoulders according to your individual spiritual gifts. I'll gladly answer anything you ask, but one at a time, please.
K.L. - as you correctly surmissed, we don't KNOW whether we were created by a Supreme Power or evolved from primordial cells. With pure reason absent, faith takes over. My faith favors a divinity; obviously many others prefer atheistic faith.
Glansar - the easy part about following Satan is you don't have to think about it or do anything away from your natural inclinations. Just follow-up on the tempatations Satan tosses your way and you'll be worshipping him thoroughly.
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