its funny how they call this christian fiction... Showing 1,351-1,400 of 1,587

[Robert]

You stand by you have no faith in anything, or you stand by all faith is irrational, or both?

[Will]

Neither, you have created a false dichotomy. I was clearly talking about religious faith when I said faith was irrational. That's the subject we are talking about here. The common usage of faith is synonymous with the word trust. Everyone has this type of faith. As you so gracefully mentioned, basic sanity relies on some type of trust. Why am I repeating myself or are you purposefully trying to avoid the real questions?

[Robert]

Wiil, you want to skip a step. Faith in a Supreme Being is a prerequisite to discussing the attributes that "deity" should possess. Your dictionary might distinguish between faiths for definitional purposes, but I don't. It's merely an orderly way of thinking where one realizes how puny he is in the scheme of the universe and grants full authority by faith to a sovereign entity that knows what's going on. If you can't muster this faith, there's no reason for me to discuss theological particulars with you - you're not ready for them.

[Paul]

Hi Mary I don't agree with much Robert says but I agree with his works statement you can be a horrible person all your life but if you confess your sins on you death bed and believe in Jesus you can go to heaven according to Christianity I think that is the Last Rights but please correct me if I am wrong. Robert I think Will is trying to point out that there are 2 definitions of the word faith.



1.


complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"


synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence; More
optimism, hopefulness, hope, expectation

"he completely justified his boss's faith in him"



antonyms: mistrust




2.


strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
"bereaved people who have shown supreme faith"


synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, persuasion, religious persuasion, religious belief, belief, code of belief, ideology, creed, teaching, dogma, doctrine More

[Paul]

I agree with Will all Religions are irrational as you must disregard everything you can see, touch and all evidence put forward to the contrary and still believe this is by definition irrational.

[Will]

Robert, you expect me to ditch the definition of a word because you don't like it? That's not the way it works. You've also spat in the face of all logic by saying I must suspend my reasoning in order to even discuss a possible deity. What makes you think you are more qualified just because you believe? Can you prove these qualities and attributes of your god? Belief in them doesn't make them true. It also doesn't matter what the definition of faith is, if you can convince me with evidence or logic, I'll believe.

When I read your last sentence, I read: if you can't muster this irrationality, you aren't qualified to discuss it. Not only does this make no sense, but seems like a convenient way for you dismiss all of my previous points without ever even trying to answer them.

[Robert]

Will - what makes you believe you're so rational? Could it be another influence, Satan at work, that deceives you? You're so into the magnitude of your human experience you can't see it as a gift from God, but with a frail temperament easily swayed by temptation. Anyway neither you nor Paul are ready for the Kingdom, a pity. Maybe after God swats you in the head a few times you'll get the message. I'll answer your questions later today when I get the chance but, because you're not much of a conversion candidate, without a lot of the detail I would put into an answer to a worthy servant of the King.

[Will]

Ah I am not worthy of consideration for being a follower of Christ nor am I worthy of any sort of effort at giving me detailed answers? How is it from your pedestal? I never claimed I'm always rational. That has never been my position. Can't wait to actually get some answers instead of condescension.

[Robert]

On my pedestal? That's a good one. My current position is a blessing - I am unworthy of it and grateful for my reprieve from sin. You don't get it but, while I care about your soul, I can't dwell with the scoffers for fear of once again losing my own. Temptation hasn't disappeared and I'm hardly immune from it. It's hard to escape the siren song of the culture and follow a new Master as He's a tough taskmaster. I'm up to the demands, but can't forget that many of the behaviors I previously engaged in were a lot of fun, but anathema to God.

[Robert]

Paul - those deathbed confessions are more a Hollywood construct than Biblical reality. The Lord gives you "the Call" to join His flock only so many times. If one persists in evil, then He hardens your heart against Him and you are forever excluded from the Book Of Life.

[Will]

Oh I definitely get it. While you converted later, I was indoctrinated into it. I understand more than you probably realize. Christianity was my life for the majority of it so far. The Bible has always been the most important book in my family and I grew up studying its words. I still keep it by my bedside. After critically reading it, I cannot get past the inconsistencies that I noted previously. This is not from lack of trying but from posing these question to people like you and either getting no answer like I am now, or one which isn't satisfactory or able to waylay my doubts.

[Robert]

Patience, my man, I'm waiting for a phone call that will whisk me away quick. I don't want to be interrupted while answering your questions. There, does that sound like condescension?

[Will]

Take your time. I've waited for an answer for years. It's only been 24 hours since I posed my first one to you after we decided to "start over" so I can wait all the time you need.

[Robert]

Ok, Will, I'll give you one Christian's thoughts on human sacrifice. It doesn't work. If the natives threw both of us down the volcano, it wouldn't rain (or whatever was the desired effect). Me, however, being a born again virgin might coax it to sprinkle a bit! But Christ is far more than human, He is deity in human form. Nevertheless, this isn't the crucial part anyway. The RESURRECTION is paramount. Without death, burial, and resurection you have just another ho-hum cruxifiction. That miracle and the resulting reappearance of Christ to some of the Apostles with the spike holes in His hands completes the narrative. Eyewitnesses are present from birth, through all of his miracle workings and teachings, to death and beyond. Sure you can remain incredulous - I'll admit it's a challenge to swallow, but the Lord didn't want coming to Him to be the easiest pathway.

[Will]

Unfortunately, that doesn't address my question. I'm asking what was sacrificed other than pain. Jesus wasn't the only resurrection in the Bible. That's not the focus in any of the symbolism or direct references throughout the Bible. Jesus didn't rise from the dead for our sins, he died for our sins. Directly from Luke or Paul, forgive me I forget which one, said Jesus died for our sins. Jesus never actually sacrificed himself, he ascended to heaven and reigns as Lord. So God sent the human version of himself Earth to die and then resurrected Jesus back to a deity and this somehow absolves us of the sin that we are born into because of a talking snake that God knew would deceive his flawed creation... but only if we accept it.

Sounds like a lot of content I'm throwing at you but it really isn't. It's all one idea that doesn't make any sense. Jesus doesn't have a purpose if it isn't for sin. We are all born sinners because an imperfect creation was deceived. God knew his imperfect creation would be deceived. Literally no part of this makes a lick of sense to me.

[Robert]

Ah, I get it know. God made an imperfect creation because He gave us a brain with which to make decisions. What did you expect, a robot? The serpent isn't a snake story, it's an iteration of Satan. Probably the most interesting thing in the whole story is the delineation of Satan's powers after the apple incident. He was confined to residing in the dust, in other words, earthbound; probably he could fly or use other supernatural means of transportation until then; and he would bite man's heel and man would whack him over the head meaning Satan would tempt, but righteous man would resist. Fascinating stuff, don't you think Will? Too bad you're fascinated by comic books rather than forgetting which Biblical author your misinformation comes from.

[Robert]

Hey were'd all the lurkers on this Christian oriented thread go - run off to the child porn site where they're right at home? Soon I'll actually review this marvellous series - my original purpose in visiting, now that the garbage has been cleaned out.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

He's a troll.

[Paul]

I'm still here Robert it's just I have learned over the years not to argue with people like you because you have no logic or rationality. I have just one thing to say to you PROVE IT!

[Robert]

Diagramtically:

Certitude (decimal) + Faith (decimal) = Belief (1.0)

Now an idiot, which this board is not lacking in, will think everything his little mind conjures up is a Proven (Paul) fact. As one gets more wisdom, the opposite becomes apparent - almost nothing is the unvarnished, certifiable truth. The intellectual who becomes aware of this sad fact sometimes leads a reclusive existence because he can't deal with the fact that his cherished beliefs are largely unsupportable. Those of us who wish to deal with the rest of the world, then, must have faith in suitable people, places, and things in order to have any belief in life at all.
I contend religious faith in this equation is no different than secular faith. I believe in a Divine Power (1.0); what I actually know factually about Him is pitifully small (0.01); so the rest (0.99) must be accomplished through faith. That's the way the world works, and that's the way Religious piety works.

[Robert]

April - wasn't that an old Marvelette's tune:
He's a troll; He's a troll; He takes her love but treats her cruel?

[Paul]

+ Will is wiping the floor with you anyway

[Paul]

Where is the wisdom in self delusion have you ever heard of Occam's Razor I will explain it for you The Hypothesis, Theory, Belief with the least assumptions should be selected. So as I said PROVE IT.

[Robert]

I'm surprrised you know about Occam's Razor, Paul; you read at a higher level than your logic indicates.

[Robert]

Extensive vocabulary here:
April - troll;
Paul - PROVE IT
Impressive!

[Glenn]

Why are you all wasting your time? Neither side is going to convince the other, and both are showing growing signs of polarisation. The horse is dead, people, why continue to beat it?

And as for the inanity of "he's a troll", well at least that makes me laugh. That really adds to the upliftment of the argument...lol.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

[Paul]

There is just no reasoning with you Robert you were nearly correct in your previous statement about you being a Dinosaur you are a Caveman with no reason or logic so you resort to personal attacks you have become tedious and predictable I am bored with you now.

[Glenn]

aPriL meows 'n growls graphomanically wrote: "Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument"

Pot calling the kettle black?

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I haven't come close to calling people here personally denigrating names. I have honestly argued my position.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Glenn, a troll says things to get you mad, hoping you'll freak out.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Eventually, trolls get to the subject of Hitler and the holocaust, no matter the argument. They absolutely start putting people down. I was waiting for Robert to get there, because he was giving signs. He finally did name calling. I was hoping to wait long enough to see if he started in with Hitler references.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Trolls often don't even believe the things they are posting. That's not true of Robert. He believes in what he's saying. That's why, given the things he's saying, all argument is useless. I wanted to see, at this point, where he would go. He got wild when everyone stopped typing, trying to provoke rage. That's when I stopped my guessing that he was a troll, and I knew he was.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

For the record, I like reading troll fights. My bad. But I do no knowingly start them. But I like to lurk when they start. Robert got two of you definitely. I was trying to warn you guys. You are not in an honest argument, but in a mild brawl. But you guys kept pulling back.

: (

Lots of people hate trolls, take it very hard.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

However, I COULD point out google is great on looking up message board slang, problems and issues. That's not the same as saying 'look it up' real mean toned, is it? OR TALKING LIKE THIS THROUGHOUT MY MESSAGE,,,this is called flaming, when you do all caps. It's one thing that seems to REALLY upset people! I usually only do that when I'm kidding.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I guess you could call me a troll hag, meaning I enjoy lurking around troll-caused fights. I had a gay friend and he said straight women who hung out with male gays were called gay hags.

I've seen some great troll-caused flaming on GR, but maybe Amazon gets stricter on it, now. I don't know.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

However, Glenn, I think you felt my odd seeming digressions were breaking up the rhythm of your comments. I didn't realize that, but I caught on after one of your comments. Women multitask and can do odd digressions without losing their train of thought. But maybe I'm actually a dingy bubble brain, too. I don't mind that. I've been married for almost four decades, and I grew up with a brother.

Mostly, though, it's because I saw a few days ago that this thread had become sterile due to Robert's emphasis on faith as the answer to rebut every single hard fact you came up with. Basically he is arguing the equivalent of someone who says he wants to believe that there are four suns circling the earth, because it's in the bible and he has faith that the bible is god's word, so no matter what evidence you have that there is one sun and the earth is circling it doesn't matter.

However, despite this dead end of thought, he kept poking you guys. That is a troll.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

As far as this book and the series, way way way way back in various places I stated many many many many times that I've read the complete first series of 12 books, and I thought the series was not only silly, but I thought the plots were derivative, repetitive and the characters were stupid. I've stated I read the Bible four times, since I've been accused more times than I can count that I've never read it because if I had I'd be a Christian now, though I cannot figure out that logic at all. The more I read it, the more inconsistencies, fallacies and silliness are apparent to me. The next thing I get asked is why do you insist on bugging Christians? Because they come after me all of the time. Whenever I'm with people, some of them ask me what church I go to. I say I'm an atheist. The next thing is usually constant invitations, witnessing, pressing of pamphlets on me. Some never stop. Others start shunning me and start a campaign of of ostracizing me. My relatives are fundamentalists. They never stop pressing me to accept Jesus, yet shun me too. I get sent religious cards. At family dinners, I'm told to stop my nonsense of not praying, or it'll no longer be welcome.

Mind you, I kept my mouth shut for years, and said, 'I didn't say anything!' Finally, I decided to say things, since being quietly obedient and polite wasn't working. So I read these books, read the bible and I hang out on these boards, so that I know what to say and I know what religious people say. Religious people never think they press and press and press to convert, and even if they do, they cannot understand why people get mad about it. So I've developed a thicker skin and a hardened position, and I stopped being politely quiet.

[Paul]

That's a pretty damming review I have only read the first 4 not sure if I should carry on with them as I also feel they are getting a bit repetitive. good premise though decently structured but some of the name choices have a whiff of the Stilton about them.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Should I spoil?

(view spoiler)[ The 'heroes' constantly pray for pages and pages. And pages. And more pages. Always on their knees and crying. They almost get killed by following, lurking and moving around from hiding place to hiding place, but they never DO anything. They look, see, run, hide, look, see, run hide. Nicholas really starts torturing and murdering and maiming. In the last one, a huge giant Jesus, (100 feet?) starts stomping and burning and blowing up thousands of people, chasing them down. There is a LOT of blood, gore and body parts, vividly described. Nicholas is destroyed last. I think. (hide spoiler)]

[Paul]

Please do.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

More spoiling?

(view spoiler)[ The books progressively detail how the fundamentalist evangelical prophecies come true - about Israel, Jews, earthquakes, floods, disease, four horseman, death dealing clouds, languages going weird, Nicholas taking over the USA, the Banks, the Trilateral Commission, the United Nations, etc. At first, Nicholas does it through corruption, then he gets tougher and just kills kills kills tortures tortures tortures, all vividly described. (hide spoiler)]

[Paul]

Think I will give the rest a miss then but I do think the first 2 maybe even 3 books were ok.

[Robert]

Ha! Ha! April, thanks for the troll definition. Ok, I guess I'm guilty as charged. Most Christians in the Good Cop, Bad Cop scenario are only capable of the Good Cop. That gets old in it's sameness so I go the other route. Neither tactic is particularly successful in bringing people to the Lord immediately, but maybe we plant some seeds. You needn't worry about my getting around to Hitler, my sole purpose was to return the thread to the book and yes, do a little proselytizing if required (it was). I'm not sure why you need to spoil the book, April when anyone can go straight to the book of Revelation in the Bible and get it firsthand.

[Will]

Robert wrote: "God made an imperfect creation because He gave us a brain with which to make decisions. What did you expect, a robot?"

Still missing the point, I see. I never said anything about the imperfection being the issue. It's the fact that the whole system was rigged from the start.

"The serpent isn't a snake story, it's an iteration of Satan."

Yes, we all know the story. Satan in serpent form. Deceiving the flawed creation and then God punishing that creation for his own setup and possibly for his own amusement? I'm not sure why because it makes no sense.

[Robert]

Will - let me see if I have this straight. Because you are not able to see into the mind of God, you feel HIS whole universe makes no sense. You hold one card, which you can't decipher, in a game in which you're not privy to the rules, and decide you can't play. What about a God who gives you the functional ability to follow His moral authority or not, and then punishs those who don't, do you not understand? Maybe you're a flawed creation (I can certainly see why you think that way), but I'm not - I'm precisely what God intended, sins and all, and I'm doing a damn good job of showing my gratitude for that opportunity by glorifying his name.

[Glenn]

aPriL meows 'n growls graphomanically wrote: "I guess you could call me a troll hag, meaning I enjoy lurking around troll-caused fights. I had a gay friend and he said straight women who hung out with male gays were called gay hags.

I've seen..."

Drag hags, I believe. In South Africa anyway.

[Glenn]

aPriL meows 'n growls graphomanically wrote: "However, Glenn, I think you felt my odd seeming digressions were breaking up the rhythm of your comments. I didn't realize that, but I caught on after one of your comments. Women multitask and can ..."

I have to admit, April, this little thing between these guys has got totally boring. So add some spice, please.

[Robert]

April - debates between atheists and Believers aren't like other debates in that there is no way to judge a clear winner since there are no "facts" to fall back upon. I'm merely doing what my Lord commands me, they are trying to defend a lifestyle which allows them to immerse themselves in sin up to their eyeballs without repercussion.

[Robert]

Yep, April, exploring the Truth is boring, add some vicious lies to the mix as dog food for the brutes.