its funny how they call this christian fiction... Showing 1,301-1,350 of 1,587

[Robert]

Paul - no, being a good person has nothing to do with it in Christianity. Works are not part of the equation. Belief that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins is the only way to eternal life. As far as our earthly existence, all of us suffer the outrageous slings and arrows of existence. Some prefer to be victims; some rise above it and make a positive influence in some manner. I'm not sure religion plays much of a role in this - it's more about conscienciousness and character.

[Paul]

That says it all really you can be the worst of the worst but believe Jesus was the son of god and your ok for heaven but if your a gay humanitarian philanthropist your doomed to hell who wants a religion like that certainly not me.

[Paul]

Anyhow back to the books I think thy are well written and very interesting.

[mark]

Paul - no, being a good person has nothing to do with it in Christianity.

this is such an important point. it is the magic key to truly understanding the belief system of many hardcore Christians. acceptance of Jesus as the son of God is a genuine get-out-of-jail-free card. as long as that eventually happens, the works or deeds of any individual man or woman don't matter a bit in terms of heaven/eternal life. scary! but hey that's hardcore religious belief for you. and Christianity is far from the only religion that has such an ace in the hole. uh oh, I'm mixing up my metaphors. anyway, that's why I can't help but view hardcore-any-religion with a combination of bemusement and anthropological interest. and this is coming from a God-lover. hardcore religious types are really fascinating. hardcore atheists are often equally fascinating.

[Paul]

I have to say it is mainly bemusement for me I am fairly certain that IF Jesus did exist this kind of thing was not the point he was trying to get across. All religions work this way except maybe for Buddhism.

[Glenn]

As a fence sitter, what I have noticed is that believers in whatever religion expound their beliefs and attempt to convince non-believers that their way is the right way. They attempt to convert. Please accept that I am generalising here. Most of the atheists here don't so much try to convince the religious believers that it is more logical to not accept there supernatural beliefs, but rather they choose to denigrate and accuse them of all sorts of despicable and unnatural acts. I accept that in every group you have individuals who display these characteristics, but to blanketly accuse all believers of these actions is patently either ignorance or self-serving dishonesty. For goodness sake, people, learn to accept those who believe differently from you! (Feel free to substitute any deity you choose for the word "goodness" in my previous sentence."

[Will]

I don't mind beliefs. It's faith and the appeal to unquestionable, unassailable dogma that bothers me. It's when those beliefs are informed by appealing to an authority who is interpreting that unquestionable dogma that bothers me. Indoctrination bothers me.

This is a very poor foundation that often leads to the atrocities mentioned.

[Mary]

Robert wrote: "Paul - no, being a good person has nothing to do with it in Christianity. Works are not part of the equation. Belief that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins is the only way to eternal l..."

Then I guess you never read the Book of James then. "Faith without works is dead/death." Christianity most certainly requires faith and faith that does not contain good works is not true faith.

[Robert]

What an odd assortment of lost souls we have here! How do I come off as a hardcore Christian? I just came here to promote the Left Behind series as thoughtful reading and encountered diversion. The Bible is my moral authority and God it's author, period. Now, all of you have your own moral authorities, substitute Gods, and idols, they're just scattered, small, and largely rubbish, so don't accuse me of exhibiting Belief in he supernatural when your beliefs aren't real concrete either. If you want to place value on petty wordly baubles, fine, be a secular materialist. My God, through His son, commands me to witness to unbelievers. That's works, Mary, by itself, and I do much for other Christians (and select "others"), and have written a book glorifying God. I look forward to the Rapture - if you don't dread that day in your current unrepentant state, then you're whistling past the graveyard.

[Paul]

I am fairly certain God did not write the Bible that would be People. My moral authority comes from an evolved sense of right and wrong not a book. I do not have any Gods or Idols the only things I put real value on are Family and Friends I am not Money or Material driven I give back to my community and to charity so I guess I am going straight to hell Robert which I am quite happy to accept if the alternative is wasting my life away fantasizing about an omnipotent being that watches over me and wants to punish me at every turn.

[Paul]

Anyhoo back to the books I first picked them up out of curiosity in the rapture and apocalypse and I learned quite a lot I like LeHaye's writing style and his character building however some of his choices for names are a bit cheesy.

[Robert]

Wrong again, Paul - God put His message upon the authors of the 2 testaments and guided them in their writings. You have no evolved sense of much of anthing as you are merely the product of a creative God and exist at His whim. God wants you to be obedient to His Word, and grateful for the spiritual gifts He has bestowed upon you. The punishment you recieve in this life is totally attributable to bad decisions, but alienation from the Lord will take your afterlife pain to a whole new level (hope you're a masochist!).

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I smell troll.

[Paul]

Are these books going to be talked about or are we just going to be reading sermons from the great prophet Robert

[Will]

Wow, it's one of those special believer that thinks anything bad is god invoking punishment on you for doing something wrong. So insulting to those that have a life of struggles.

[Mary]

Robert wrote: "What an odd assortment of lost souls we have here! How do I come off as a hardcore Christian? I just came here to promote the Left Behind series as thoughtful reading and encountered diversion. The..."

Jesus commanded you to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help the sick, widows, children, etc. The best witnesses are those who walk the walk Jesus set out for them rather than merely "talking the talk" of proselytizing. It is easy to tell other people what to do. It is much more difficult to actually carry out the actions that place the needs of others above your own.

[Robert]

Mary - What do you think my church does? We can help the needy (admittedly mostly Christians) better as a group than I can individually.

[Robert]

Paul - you weren't talking about the book when I dropped in, now you're on fire for it?

[Robert]

Will - we all struggle, Christianity doesn't set up a shield from life's vicissitudes. An honest assessment would reveal that most of our struggles are brought about by our own ill-conceived decision making apparatus. God doesn't heap melodrama on you, you're the dysfunctional one.

[Robert]

aPriL - what's a Troll in the modern vernacular - I'm a bit of a dinosaur and need some updating.

[Will]

If you think most people bring about their own troubles you must live in a vacuum. Just being born means starving to death for literally millions of children a year (2.5 million to hunger related deaths a year).

Sure there are problems that people bring on themselves, but you said it is "totally attributable to bad decisions."

[Robert]

Will - your quotation is correct; the aggregate collection of mankind's bad decisions are responsible for human suffering, starting with Adam.

[Mary]

Robert wrote: "Mary - What do you think my church does? We can help the needy (admittedly mostly Christians) better as a group than I can individually."

Those are works.

[Will]

One, that wasn't what you said. You said anything bad is directly related to THAT person's decisions. Not someone else's. Two, is a talking snake and a forbidden fruit all set up by god who knew beforehand what was going to happen really your case? Would you like to set about the monumental task of trying to make any sense of "original sin" or find any logic in sending your own son to forgive the flawed creation you created? How about logically explaining how inheriting the sins of your father is just? Can you really tell me that the best system of justice in place is merely believing and accepting Christ? This means a lifetime of despicable acts can be forgiven in one deathbed conversion while a lifetime of good deeds is met with eternal torture and punishment if the person simply doesn't believe. I find the entirety of Christianity to be immoral.

[Robert]

Mary - yes, WORKS! Sorry I haven't dropped everything and gone to Darfur to care for the displaced, but my God seems OK with what I do stateside.

[Robert]

Will - read Msg. 1339 again. It's directed to both individual malfeasance and long-term managerial oversight. As a Biblical scholar, it's not particularly difficult to make sense of any uf the objections you've raised. However, I can only address 1 at a time as the answers can be complex. May I suggest you go through the Bible as an intelligent researcher rather than a knee-jerk naysayer.

[Will]

If you had a new argument I haven't heard before I would be impressed. I grew up reading the Bible.

[Will]

What is special about message 1339 and how is it relevant? It was just assumptions, none of which address my points.

[Robert]

Will - put down the joint and try to focus. You stated in msg 1351 a point one. I referred you to msg 1339 to clarify it. Of course I hadn't addressed your points yet in 1339 - I'm not clairvoyant. Wake up boy, and at least get your time line straight.

[Robert]

Will - I don't have any new arguments for you, but that wouldn't be productive as you've completely whiffed on the old ones. Read the Bible again from an adult perspective, that is, if you have an adult perspective.

[Will]

You're just too humble of a guy, Robert. I'm sorry you aren't able to address any of my points. I'm patient, though, so I'll skirt by the blatant insults and wait for substance.

[Will]

As if it's unreasonable to reference to someone a previous message which might address a later point? How about you stop trying to put me down and we can go point by point. You bring my age into question, yet the immature responses? I don't get it but I'm willing to put up with it if it leads to any sort of constructive conversation.

[Robert]

Fair enough, Will, we'll hit the restart button. Which Biblical topic REALLY concerns you (enough that you cast aspersions on the whole package) and I'll try to address it.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Will, I think he's a troll.

[mark]

^+1

[Robert]

If you'll define troll for me, I'll tell you if I am one, but if it involves anything more sinister than stumbling upon a post for a major eschatological achievement in literature, by two highly acclaimed academic theologians which had turned into a whiny, lachrymose cesspool of godless humanistic nonsense, then you are apt to be sorely disappointed.

[mark]

you sound fun. a real soldier for God! no doubt you have proven to be quite an inspiration to many. I assume sales of your book have reflected your ability to inspire people?

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

mark wrote: "you sound fun. a real soldier for God! no doubt you have proven to be quite an inspiration to many. I assume sales of your book have reflected your ability to inspire people?"

^+1

; D

[Paul]

I dont think Robert is a Troll I think he genuinely believes everything he says however Robert attacking people personally is not the way to go to get your point across. The problem that most people have with Christianity is the do as I say or burn in hell aspect of it, it just seems a little bit fascist. There is also the bigotry towards people who do not conform to there way of thinking, like I have said before IF Jesus did exist I am fairly certain this kind of thing was not his message.

[mark]

Paul wrote: "problem that most people have with Christianity is the do as I say or burn in hell aspect of it..."

the majority of Christians I've met are the opposite. it seems I mainly encounter these cartoonish types on tv, in the news, or sometimes online. oh, zealots. but they are only a part, not the whole. wish the non-zealots had more exposure. there are plenty of awesome believers out there who understand that being a Christian actually means following the teachings of the Christ i.e. the New Testament. and not simply using the Old Testament as a way to project your own insecurities and ignorance onto others and the world around you. oh, zealots. they lack true understanding.

[Glenn]

Disagreeing with someone and making your point is fair.
Insulting them and/or calling them names just proves that you are incapable of making a rational argument and well, stupid. I hope nobody will consider this insulting or name-calling!

[Robert]

It is a shame that merely reading posts, assimilating the contents, and then confronting the perpetrators with the inanity of their own words is considered insulting. You know what insults me: is that this seminal work, a masterpiece of end times deliberation, is sullied by atheistic garbage from self-centered post-modernists whose purpose is to hijack the board.

[Robert]

Mark - thanks for the kind words. The book is doing alright, but I haven't managed to get it in the right hands yet. It's at the nexus of science and religion and fundamentalists from both sides don't want to be confronted by it. I need some cool, rational intellects to read it - those are hard to come by.

[Will]

Faith is by definition irrational. And your pretend ignorance on your insulting posts is not convincing.

I can start with an easy one. Since it all boils down to Jesus, what is the point of a human sacrifice when nothing was actually sacrificed but a few hours of pain? According to the church I was baptized into, after dying and then battling Satan for 3 days, Jesus ascended to heaven where he reigns as Lord. Add to that the fact we are a flawed creation (according to scripture) who was completely set up for failure, and it makes zero sense. Created sick - commanded to be well. This system is completely rigged and requires an alternative meaning to the word justice.

[Robert]

Hi Will - still way too much content, but let's start with Faith. It is not by definition irrational unless you're talking blind faith. I only came to the Lord in my forties - until then I had PLENTY of fun (which I continue to have by writing insulting posts, Ha!), but managed a fair degree of scholarship. All of my education was based on faith that my predecessors knew what the hell they were talking about. Sadly, experience taught me that was not the case. All dominos of human make-believe wisdom fell in a similar manner when exposed to the acid test of reality. So, I turned to Scripture expecting similar disappointment. It took me a year of intense research and questioning to see the light. The Truth was in the gospels. I can't convince anyone without an open mind of this and my failure rate for conversion is abysmal, but I remain undeterred. You can't go through your day, Will, without a certain amount of faith that drivers drive straight, planes get off the ground, no one pushes the nuclear button, etc. Once again, reread Scripture with an adult, unfetered mind.

[Will]

You are confusing the everyday definition of faith, which is essentially trust, and religious faith, which is belief for reasons other than evidence. The difference are noted in any standard dictionary, the former being the main entry, religious faith usually being the secondary definition.

The question I posed to you is the important part. I don't care about squabbling over semantics.

[Mary]

Robert wrote: "Mary - yes, WORKS! Sorry I haven't dropped everything and gone to Darfur to care for the displaced, but my God seems OK with what I do stateside."

Then don't say that the Bible does not state that you need to do works to attain heaven. It does.

[Robert]

No, it doesn't Mary - show me a Bible quotation supporting your allegation.

[Robert]

No, we're not just discussing semantics, Will, we're hammering out what we have belief in and why. One minute you're calling faith irrational and now you're backing away from it entirely. Well, it's central and can't be glossed over.

[Will]

I didn't back away from it at all. I stand by it.