Left Behind
discussion
its funny how they call this christian fiction...
well, if god has aplan, then praying wil not change that plan, because his plan was made in the beginning. So praying is a futile occupation, it is essentially asking god to change his divine plan, which is a somewhat presumptuous ask of your god, don't you think? If your survival was part of the divine plan, you would have survived without prayer, if your death was part of the divine plan, you would have died no matter how many people prayed for you, nor matter how much.And even within these bounds, there is no miracle, because if your survival was part of his divine plan, then it was always going to happen, and theres nothing miraculous about a foregone conclusion.
And honestly, if we don't question these things, who will?
Kendra wrote: "One question - for all concerned with this discussion: WHERE WOULD WE BE IF: God does not exist; had not created us; did not love us...."Well, obviously, as an atheist I believe we would exactly where we are now.
Kendra wrote: Sorry. I edited my original post. IF......God didn't exist; if He hadn't created us; if He didn't love us; if He didn't forgive us. "Where are we now?
@Shaun: it's no surprise that you say this. I have heard of atheists - over and over again. I have seen what they are doing in the world, and I have to tell you, Shaun, I feel a quite sorry for you.
If you truly want to know why, I'd rather not say in "public".
If you truly want to know why, I'd rather not say in "public".
Kendra, atheism is a response to a claim, its no what people are, its not a belief system.Atheism is simply a rejection of the claim that any god exists. It goes no further than that.
Mary wrote: "Kendra wrote: Sorry. I edited my original post. IF......God didn't exist; if He hadn't created us; if He didn't love us; if He didn't forgive us. "
Where are we now?"
Trying to back me into the proverbial corner? It isn't going to work, Mary, because no matter what you believe (or don't we are here. Believing or not believing in God won't change that.
Where are we now?"
Trying to back me into the proverbial corner? It isn't going to work, Mary, because no matter what you believe (or don't we are here. Believing or not believing in God won't change that.
Well I will give Kendra huge bonus points for persistence. However one does not bring a knife to a fight with not only guns, but guided missiles where the wielders are also draped in Kevlar. One more point. If going to heaven means I must be ignorant, bigoted, and dismissive of other faiths, why would I want to go there? Because spending eternity in the company of people like that would be HELL for one such as myself. As Billy Joel sang, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. The sinners are much more fun."
Believing or not believing in God won't change that. Exactly.
Hazel wrote: "Kendra, atheism is a response to a claim, its no what people are, its not a belief system.
Atheism is simply a rejection of the claim that any god exists. It goes no further than that."
Not a belief system? Actually, it is. Not believing is just the opposite of believing -> subtraction vs. addition
Atheism is simply a rejection of the claim that any god exists. It goes no further than that."
Not a belief system? Actually, it is. Not believing is just the opposite of believing -> subtraction vs. addition
Mary wrote: "Well I will give Kendra huge bonus points for persistence. However one does not bring a knife to a fight with not only gums, but guided missiles where the wielders are also draped in Kevlar. On..."
this should amuse you Mary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzfCtG...
Kendra wrote: "@Shaun: it's no surprise that you say this. I have heard of atheists - over and over again. I have seen what they are doing in the world, and I have to tell you, Shaun, I feel a quite sorry for y..."Yes, those evil atheists, going round blowing up their religious rivals. Oh no, wait, that's Christians and Muslims.
Oh, those evil atheists, blowing up abortion clinics and murdering doctors. Oh, damn, sorry, that's Christians too.
Ah, I remember now, those evil atheists, using their globe-spanning ultra-rich organistation to conceal peadophiles, even spiriting them out of countries to protect them. Damn, no, that's Christians again.
Um... those evil atheists, deliberately lying about condoms and thus directly causing the spread of aids in 3rd world countries? Shoot, no, that's Christians again.
Uh... abusing their massive political power to enforce their rules on others? Dang it, no, Christians again.
Oh! Those evil atheists who publicly denounce materialism whilst meeting in huge expensive tax-free buildings decorated with gold ornaments? Oh, wait, no, that's Christians again.
Sorry, you are going to have to help me out here, Kendra. Private message me if you must, but what great evil have atheists ever done that remotely matches the evils done in gods name? I'd really like to know what you think an atheist is/does that is so terrible.
Hazel wrote: "Mary wrote: "Well I will give Kendra huge bonus points for persistence. However one does not bring a knife to a fight with not only gums, but guided missiles where the wielders are also draped in ...this should amuse you Mary:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzfCtGFgR... "
LOL! I love Stephen Fry!
Kendra wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Kendra, atheism is a response to a claim, its no what people are, its not a belief system.Atheism is simply a rejection of the claim that any god exists. It goes no further than t..."
no, its not a belief system, it is a simple rejection of the claim that god exists, and thats where it ends. The idea that it is a system of belief is a common misunderstanding of fundamentalist christians who want to demonise anyone who thinks differently to the way they do. There are no rule sets to follow, there are no strictures, or instructions, or anything that would make it into a system of belief. I hate to tell you this, but you've been lied to if someone told you its a belief system. Believe me, I'm an atheist. When it comes to belief systems, I tend towards being a secular humanist.
I hate to tell you this, but you've been lied to if someone told you its a belief system. Believe me, I'm an atheist. When it comes to belief systems, I tend towards being a secular humanist. "If one adheres to or propagates a fundamentalist view, then lying is an essential element of that view. Otherwise no one with any sense would follow it. Fundamentalist claim to KNOW with absolute certainty what God wants, yet the very Bible they worship (in direct contradiction to the Ten Commandments btw) states that we all "see through a glass darkly" and will only KNOW when we meet face to face.
Shaun wrote: "Kendra wrote: "@Shaun: it's no surprise that you say this. I have heard of atheists - over and over again. I have seen what they are doing in the world, and I have to tell you, Shaun, I feel a qu..."
And I would like to know where you got the idea that Christians do such things> and it is supposedly God's will, too! Why blame everything on Christians? Why is Christianity so bad compared to, say, Hinduism, Buddhism, Catholicism?
And that's just 3 of the dozens of religions in the world! There are so many......it's not like Christians are the only ones who have done wrong, either.
And I would like to know where you got the idea that Christians do such things> and it is supposedly God's will, too! Why blame everything on Christians? Why is Christianity so bad compared to, say, Hinduism, Buddhism, Catholicism?
And that's just 3 of the dozens of religions in the world! There are so many......it's not like Christians are the only ones who have done wrong, either.
Why do people insist on seeing only the terrible things of this world, and blaming them on God?
What is the point of doing so? What is the goal? Why do you persist in trying to convince me? Is it to gain "riches" of some kind? What do you gain from getting a person to believe as you do?
Athism> to me - not because I've "learned it" - that only means that you have turned your back on God. Nothing more, and nothing less.
What is the point of doing so? What is the goal? Why do you persist in trying to convince me? Is it to gain "riches" of some kind? What do you gain from getting a person to believe as you do?
Athism> to me - not because I've "learned it" - that only means that you have turned your back on God. Nothing more, and nothing less.
FAITH> believing in what you cannot see. If you believe in Allah, you have faith that he exists. if you have faith in any other god, you have FAITH first of all.
Kendra, do you even pay attention to the news?To the scandal going on with the catholic church and the child rape cases involving priests and their charges?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic...
the news about the pope claiming that condoms cause aids rather than prevent it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/317...
The doctor, George Tiller, who worked at an abortion clinic, gunned down by christians:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05...
And being an American, I'm sure you recall 9/11 and that it was Muslims acting in the name of Allah... who si the same god as Yahweh, who you worship.
Then we can go back in time, to the crusades for example, Christianity going to rid the holy land of the heathen and the infidel with fire and the sword.
The news is still full of Christians doing hideous things in the name of god.
"And I would like to know where you got the idea that Christians do such things> and it is supposedly God's will, too! Why blame everything on Christians? Why is Christianity so bad compared to, say, Hinduism, Buddhism, Catholicism?And that's just 3 of the dozens of religions in the world! There are so many......it's not like Christians are the only ones who have done wrong, either."
Um...I hate to tell you, but Catholics are Christians. In fact the are the original organized Christian church. Certainly others have committed some as there is no group that has no evil followers, but Hindus tend to be the recipients of persecution rather than the perpetrators, although that sutee was pretty bad. The fact that other religions have committed atrocities does not excuse Christians from the ones they have perpetrated. Deflection doesn't work.
Kendra wrote: "Why do people insist on seeing only the terrible things of this world, and blaming them on God?What is the point of doing so? What is the goal? Why do you persist in trying to convince me? I..."
Why would atheists blame the terrible things in the world on God when they do not believe he exists? The blame is on the religious cults who CLAIM to believe in him.
And you're right, its not just the christians have done wrong, muslims fight for Allah, the first suicide bombers were Hindus, acting for Hinduism, Buddhists are generally peaceful though, it takes a mixing of buddhism with another religion, usually hiduism, islam or christianity before they start being violent. The liost of religions, and the atrocities they commit for their faith go on and on, but saying "its not just us", doesn't make it better, or excuse the christians in any way. It simply makes them as bad.but you know what, no-one has ever killed or gone to war in the name of atheism, in the name of secularism, or in the name of science.
But those hideous things done by so-called Christians....who says they are ordained by God? God does not condone such things/actions. He doesn't want to see anyone die....it says so in the Bible.
2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
What I should have said was this verse with one phrase in bold. not willing that any should perish - NOT ONE
Ah, "so called Christians", are we going for the "no true scotsman" argument now? Each of them are as much of a christian as you are.And really, the bible is full of passages condoning their behaviour too, so quoting scripture isn't helping.
Kendra wrote: "But those hideous things done by so-called Christians....who says they are ordained by God? God does not condone such things/actions. He doesn't want to see anyone die....it says so in the Bible...."So why does he tell us to stone to DEATH:
adulterers
homosexuals
non-virgins
blasphemers
idolaters
disobedient children
witches
those who gather sticks on the Sabbath
its all there, kendra, most of what Mary has listed is in Leviticus. I've recently read Leviticus, so I can honestly say its definitely there.
Here, you can check, its even the king James versionhttp://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/...
homosexuals is 20:13
adulterers is 20:10
unruly children 20:9, as well as Deuteronomy 21:18
witchcraft 20:27
Mary wrote: "Kendra wrote: "But those hideous things done by so-called Christians....who says they are ordained by God? God does not condone such things/actions. He doesn't want to see anyone die....it says s..."
I'll answer your question as best as I can, but then i want you to answer your own query.
God wants us to follow His commandments. Doesn't every leader? Why is God the only One Who is wrong? It doesn't matter if you are an atheist or not, what matters here is that you are attacking my Christianity by defending all the other religions....and in essence saying that God doesn't exist, nor does He care (which, I might add, He does).
I'll answer your question as best as I can, but then i want you to answer your own query.
God wants us to follow His commandments. Doesn't every leader? Why is God the only One Who is wrong? It doesn't matter if you are an atheist or not, what matters here is that you are attacking my Christianity by defending all the other religions....and in essence saying that God doesn't exist, nor does He care (which, I might add, He does).
Hazel wrote: "its all there, kendra, most of what Mary has listed is in Leviticus. I've recently read Leviticus, so I can honestly say its definitely there."What I do not understand is how someone can place all of the trust and faith in a religion they seem to know nothing about.
Kendra wrote: God wants us to follow His commandments. Doesn't every leader? Why is God the only One Who is wrong? It doesn't matter if you are an atheist or not, what matters here is that you are attacking my Christianity by defending all the other religions....and in essence saying that God doesn't exist, nor does He care (which, I might add, He does). "You have a habit of ignoring anything that you do not want to believe is true. Where has anyone defended any other religion over Christianity? I happen to be an equal opportunity skeptic as far as ANY organized religion is concerned. Religion was invented by man to control the masses with the leaders gaining power (typically financial power) over said masses.
Kendra, I am not attacking your christianity by defending other religions. they are as misled as Christianity. But you're a cristian, so thats what we're discussing.What is your proof for god existing? that you're still alive today? thats not proof of god existing, thats proof that you had good doctors. If god did exist, and he does care, why are their children dying from starvation in africa? Thats not the sign of a omnibenevolent -scient - potent being.
Kendra wrote: " THAT'S IT. I'M LEAVING!"That is probably for the best.
Mary wrote: "Kendra wrote: God wants us to follow His commandments. Doesn't every leader? Why is God the only One Who is wrong? It doesn't matter if you are an atheist or not, what matters here is that you are ..."
And your point is....?
And your point is....?
Kendra, the point is that whenever someone says something you don't want to believe or that goes against what you've been told by your father/other adults in your childhood/any other pastor, you simply stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalala not listening". You won't be objective, you won't stand back and think without your preconditioned prejudices getting in the way. And I doubt you have actually made note of any of the reading material we've recommended, or watched any of the videos we've linked, or actually thought about anything we've said beyond "thats not what I believe, so I'll file that under not worth my attention". We're not asking you to give up your faith here, but what I'm asking you to do is actually looka t what you're putting your faith in, and deciding for yourself if you should. If after reading all the horrific stuff in the bible, and after reading some secular texts you still think that god is there, all well and good, but if you're going to claim he's there, at least try to make absolutely sure that you're right before you claim that you are.
Mary wrote: "Kendra wrote: " THAT'S IT. I'M LEAVING!"
That is probably for the best."
Goodness. Thank you so much!
That is probably for the best."
Goodness. Thank you so much!
Hazel wrote: "Kendra, the point is that whenever someone says something you don't want to believe or that goes against what you've been told by your father/other adults in your childhood/any other pastor, you si..."
I'm sticking my fingers in my ears? Uhm.....I think that if I'm doing that, then you are certainly doing the same. All of you are. Like I've said before, I'm sick and tired of being attacked by people who - though you may know lots of things about all of these religions and such, your lack of faith is the most troubling. :(
Now, I would like to be able to visit goodreads.com without having to be concerned about this. i tried deactivating the notifications in my email, but it refused to work. :(
I'm sticking my fingers in my ears? Uhm.....I think that if I'm doing that, then you are certainly doing the same. All of you are. Like I've said before, I'm sick and tired of being attacked by people who - though you may know lots of things about all of these religions and such, your lack of faith is the most troubling. :(
Now, I would like to be able to visit goodreads.com without having to be concerned about this. i tried deactivating the notifications in my email, but it refused to work. :(
No,. I've listened to everything... well read and taken in everything you've said, the unfortunate thing for you Kendra, si that you're not saying anything that I haven't heard before from other religious apologists. Its hte same stuf that gets spouted all the time, and its never original, and it never makes sense, and it never ever involves rationality or reason fromt he person saying it.All your essentially saying is "God, bible, they're real and true, Don't question it."
Well, sorry, the evidence is against you on this, there is no evidence for the existence of any god (please not, I said ANY), and there is no reason to consider the bible to be the word of god, or the Torah, or the Koran, or any other holy book/scripture, of which there is one hell of a lot. The only evidence that you offer that god is real is that the bible says so, and the only evidence you offer that the bible is the word of god is because god says so... in the bible. Thats like saying god is real because god is real, its a non sequiter, and circular reasoning. We've offered cogent and reasoned arguments, yet you seem to have take none of it in, and simply taken it as an attack on you personally. Well, its not an attack on you personally, if you could only be objective, you'd see that.
Willful ignorance. What can I say? Whether you want to admit it or not Kendra, you began the attacks by stating that people who were not Christians are going to hell. Those are pretty strong words. Unfortunately you do not have the knowledge to advocate for your own religion. I know it makes people feel special to consider themselves one of the chosen people and it alleviates the fear of the unknown and of death, but if there is a God, he gave me a brain and a logical way of thinking. Why would he not want me to use those gifts?
OH...and by the way...you have CHOSEN to engage in a debate you are ill prepared to handle. No one forced you to respond to our posts.
Kendra wrote: "Not a belief system? Actually, it is. Not believing is just the opposite of believing -> subtraction vs. addition "So, you have a belief system about leprichauns and pixies? You have a belief system about Shiva and Brahma? A belief system about Odin and Thor? About Zeus and Hera?
You subscrube to an awful lot of belief sytems, it appears.
Shaun wrote: "Kendra wrote: "Not a belief system? Actually, it is. Not believing is just the opposite of believing -> subtraction vs. addition "
So, you have a belief system about leprichauns and pixies? You h..."
Actually.....I don't. I believe in God - only. All of the others, I am a non-believer of such things.
So, you have a belief system about leprichauns and pixies? You h..."
Actually.....I don't. I believe in God - only. All of the others, I am a non-believer of such things.
ah, so you get it at least, atheism is the lack of belief in such things. I am an atheist about all gods, and about dragons and vampires and fairies. You're an atheist about dragons and vampires and fairies, and about all gods but Yahweh. I just go one god further than you.that is all atheism is, a lack of belief, a rejection of the claim.
The thing is, Hazel, I've picked one god - the true God to believe in. The One Who is.
Kendra wrote: "The thing is, Hazel, I've picked one god - the true God to believe in. The One Who is."So have the Muslims.
What makes you so sure that your god is the true one? Have you read all the other holy books? Have you experienced their religious ceremonies? You are very certain in your assertations, yet you have no point of reference, not really.what if you're wrong, what if you're making Shiva angrier and angrier?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.”
― Mark Twain
Mary wrote: "Kendra wrote: "The thing is, Hazel, I've picked one god - the true God to believe in. The One Who is."So have the Muslims."
so have the john frum cargo cultists, the sikhs, and the mormons...
Kendra wrote: "The thing is, Hazel, I've picked one god - the true God to believe in. The One Who is."And this is the point I raised before - SO HAS EVERY OTHER RELIGIOUS PERSON.
There is not one thing, one thing at all, that you could say about why your faith is so unshakeable, that another genuine believer in another religion cannot equal.
Miracles? Holy Text? A longstanding tradition? If a Muslim (Jew/Budhist/Hindu/Sikh/Mormon/Jehova's Witness/Shaker/Quaker/Rastafarian/Scientologist etc etc) tells you he *knows* his faith his the right one, you would not believe him, yet you expect me, with the exact same level of evidence, to believe you unconditionally.
Do you honestly not see the double standard that sets?
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"
Kendra...show me ONE post where I said God does not exist. I have never said..."
I am sorry. Once again, I spoke out of turn. My fault.
You know, I think I'll leave now. It might be better for everyone. i haven't "deactivated" the notifications to my Hotmail address because I have enjoyed conversing with you - it makes me think, relaly - but I'm pretty sure I've overdone it a few too many times.
So........GOODBYE. AND GOD BLESS YOU.