Ersatz TLS discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Weekly TLS
>
What are we reading? 17/06/2024
Gpfr wrote: "Bill wrote: "For an example of this kind of mutual support between plot and character, I’m thinking of the novels of Robertson Davies. ..."Here's an author we can agree on :)
I re-read The Salterton Trilogy: Tempest-Tost / Leaven of Malice / A Mixture of Frailties not so long ago and will go back to the others, too.
On checking, I see it was 2021 (longer ago than I thought) and Anne and Robert like him too. He came up again about a year later and AB76 expressed an intention of reading him — did you ever do so, AB?."
I'm thinking of reading these myself sometime soon, since I've been reading some other 1950s things the last few years. I'm an admirer of Davies's later books, from Fifth Business onwards, but have never gone back to try this earlier series. Maybe now's the time!
I came across a short, positive review of this book tonight: Aftermath: Life in the Fallout of the Third Reich, 1945–1955. The review was of the French translation (Les Temps des Loups, which sounds closer to the original German title of Wolfszeit than the English version does). I thought a few members here would be interested in the subject and the period it covers. An extract from the review:... à partir d’extraits de livres, de journaux
(intimes), d’émissions radiophoniques, de films,
de réclames, le journaliste Harald Jähner fait feu
de tout bois dans cette sorte d’étude de mœurs
qui porte en particulier sur la bourgeoisie intel-
lectuelle.
I like the idea of using extracts from radio broadcasts, films, advertisements, etc in an effort (I imagine) to create a picture of the time and place as it appeared to or was experienced by those living in that world at that time.
I'd say that Davies found rich sources in the life around him and wove them into his work-- like his father's love of melodramatic theater, which he exposed his son to at an early age, or his time at Oxford and the dons he met there, or his long fascination with Freud and Jung, or his love of Dickens. He certainly drew on all of these for his "Fifth Business," "World of Wonders", and "What's Bred in the Bone."
Yes, it's like Bill was saying a page or two above: almost any fiction writer will make use of their own experiences, including themselves, people they've met, etc - but that in itself isn't enough to make something auto-fiction, unless you want to say all fiction is auto-fiction.Someone like Kerouac, on the other hand, who as I understand it based almost all his characters on people he knew or had met, almost all the scenes and incidents in his novels on things that had actually happened to him or that he had witnessed - this is getting very close to auto-fiction if it isn't the very thing itself.
Mod
Here's the link if anyone wants to check it out. I didn't read all the comments, there might be interesting things there.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
I certainly don't think Joyce wrote auto-fiction and I wouldn't really say that Proust did either, although I see why people might categorise his books like that.
Berkley wrote: "Yes, it's like Bill was saying a page or two above: almost any fiction writer will make use of their own experiences, including themselves, people they've met, etc - but that in itself isn't enough..."re Davies, he is one Canadian author i havent read yet(Martha Ostenso is on my pile for this year) and i should read some of his
re Keroauc, i am interested in his first Massachussets based novel, rather than his later stuff
Gpfr wrote: "When looking up auto-fiction, I saw there was a 10 best books on it in The G. which I must have missed at the time. The article was pretty bad and no real distinction seemed to be being made betwee..."i think autofiction has become a key pillar of modern writing more than historically, my key definition would be when it is abundantly clear that the author is the narrator and i have read numerous modern novels which i liked, where that is the case. so the pretence, if may call it that, of disguising autobigraphical fiction goes out of the window
there is also the modern trend of what i call "faction", where a true story is told with literary embellishments but remains very close to non-fiction. This genre i really like and keeps me reading modern novels more than i would usually, a good example would be Vuillard, or novels about Lee Harvey Oswald(DeLillo) or Molina's novel about MLK's killer
Mod
Zadie Smith in The Fraud does a decent job of explaining what the record does and does not show. Her principal female figure, she reveals, is made to live much longer in the book than she did in real life. This bending of historical truth didn’t bother me, as Mrs Touchet is, you feel, largely a fictional character anyway.
On the other hand, CJ Sansom, in quite a long afterword to Winter in Madrid detailing all his sources, reveals that he changed one significant date in Franco’s campaign, and did it to make the facts fit his plot. I found myself more than a bit aggravated. I know it shouldn’t matter but I felt he was tampering with history.
Mod
I read it a while back (the English translation) and it was excellent. He manages to show how in a shattered society the human spirit can rise from the depths, while also showing how those with a Nazi past quietly slid back into comfortable positions. The reviewer was right to draw attention to the wide range of materials. The many photos were also telling.
A good reading year continues in the shires with the following: Israeli Stories(1965) a collection of stories in a dog eared second hand copy i found of short stories from 1950s and early 60s Israel. So far the standard is very good and its fascinating to read about Israel in the period before 1967 and the Six Day War
In Light of India by Octavio Paz is a collection of essays on the vast land of India by Mexican writer Octavio Paz. He worked in India as a diplomat in the 1950s and early 1960s. His writing is superb and its interesting to get a Central American take on Indiia
Something Of Myself by Rudyard Kipling is a short unfinished sort of auto-biog which he was writing in the 1930s before his death. Its a wonderful read, especially the section i just finished that covered his time in India as a journalist from 1881-1889. Based in Lahore, one can see the imagination he had, mixed with discipline of deadline writing and sub-editing forming the writer we now know so well. He writes of Lahore, the fierce heat of the summer and the pleasent cool autumn and winter(cool by Indian standards_. While he avoids the diseases and death that afflict so many europeans, he admits the return of the Punjab heat always unsettled him. (Interesingtly in the 1881 Gazeteer of Lahore i found reference to something i had never heard of before a thermantodite, which the gazeteer refers to as being used in then Punjab, as opposed to other ways of cooling houses further south in india. Its basically a form of evaporative cooling for the summer weather, modified from the Indian method of cooling khas screens with water and other ways to sit out the heat)
Lastly i intend to start Valerie Luiselli#s english language novel Lost Children Archive which hopefully will continue my rich vein of novels by female south/central american authors. As Trump nears re-election to being President, this was written in anger to his policies in his first term as President.
Mod
Very tempting, AB, thanks.
Mod
I’ve never read any Nin before. I assumed she was French and that the English editions you see around were translations. So I was interested to pick up this battered Livre de Poche – only to discover she was indeed French but wrote in English. No matter. The French is stylish, and fits the locale.
well i really didnt like Luiseli, thats ended a run of good female latin american authors, after 12 pages, i just could not go on, just not my thingso i will read Gelignite one of William Marshalls Hong Kong set crime novels, an Australian take on the city, with strong chinese themes, written in 1976
Berkley wrote: "I came across a short, positive review of this book tonight: Aftermath: Life in the Fallout of the Third Reich, 1945–1955. The review was of the French translation (Les Temps des Lo..."my dad got this for me Xmas 2022, a real suprise as i hadnt noticed it amomg reviews that year and he picked it for me. It was a superb read, so good in so many ways
the last 3-4 years has seen a good number of translated from german books about the end of WW2 and i still havent got further than this one but i aim to read them all. one on my pile is Promise me you'll shoot yourself all set in the town of Demmin, in NE Germany, focusing on the end of WW2
Berkley wrote: "I'm thinking of reading these myself sometime soon, since I've been reading some other 1950s things the last few years. I'm an admirer of Davies's later books, from Fifth Business onwards, but have never gone back to try this earlier series. Maybe now's the time!"Like you, I've enjoyed Davies works from Fifth Business forward, but never went back to The Salterton Trilogy. @Gpfr's post reminded me that I have an omnibus volume of the trilogy and I will definitely get to it this summer.
Mod
I've enjoyed Davies works from Fifth Business forward, but never went back to The Salterton Trilogy.
Funnily enough, The Salterton Trilogy was also the last I read (the first time around).
I started with The Cornish Trilogy: The Rebel Angels / What's Bred in the Bone / The Lyre of Orpheus, then The Deptford Trilogy, and after that Salterton. I've also got Murther and Walking Spirits, but have not read The Cunning Man. Must do that sometime.
Gpfr wrote: "Funnily enough, The Salterton Trilogy was also the last I read (the first time around).I started with The Cornish Trilogy: The Rebel Angels / What's Bred in the Bone / The Lyre of Orpheus, then The Deptford Trilogy, and after that Salterton. I've also got Murther and Walking Spirits, but have not read The Cunning Man. Must do that sometime."
I started with the Deptford series on recommendation of a friend, and then read the Cornish trilogy as they were published (I think What's Bred in the Bone is my favorite single novel of his). I also have Cunning Man and Murther but haven't read them. I anticipate that many delights still await in those unread volumes.
AB76 wrote: "i think autofiction has become a key pillar of modern writing more than historically, my key definition would be when it is abundantly clear that the author is the narrator and i have read numerous modern novels which i liked, where that is the case. so the pretence, if may call it that, of disguising autobigraphical fiction goes out of the window"I think the craze for autofiction has been fueled by social media, where authors are encouraged (if not being outright coerced by publishers) to have a presence on multiple sites, posting updates on their gardens, pets, book tours, and other mundane activities. Such accounts seem very popular and apparently do drive book sales, though, as with so much that appeals to a mass audience, they hold no attraction for me.
For decades my authorial ideal for personal revelations has been Thomas Pynchon, who could be defined as the opposite of autofiction. For the most part, I'm not even sure which parts of his novels might be drawn from personal experience, other than being employed to hunt alligators in the NYC sewers.
Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i think autofiction has become a key pillar of modern writing more than historically, my key definition would be when it is abundantly clear that the author is the narrator and i have ..."i still havent read any Pynchon...
Speaking of writers who are the opposite of autofiction, fans of Charles Portis may enjoy this conversation with Jonathan Lethem, who reviewed the LOA Portis volume in a recent issue of NYRB. There’s a specific reason Portis endeared himself so deeply to science fiction writers, and that’s his fourth novel, Masters of Atlantis. The characters in that book comprise a population not unlike the ufologists, Dianeticists, and hollow-earthers who congregated with the fans and authors of written science fiction through most of the twentieth century. Portis lavishes them with a gentle skepticism, makes them familiar and silly and heartbreaking all at once—it’s an amazing accomplishment.
https://email.nybooks.com/t/y-e-mjygi...
has anyone read Trumps book he wrote? On a theme of premiers being writers we have Disraeli, Sarmiento(Argentina), Saddam Hussein, Mussolini(though cant find his novels anywhere), Hitler,Vladdy Lenin... i guess there have been quite a few others...
AB76 wrote: "has anyone read Trumps book he wrote? On a theme of premiers being writers we have Disraeli, Sarmiento(Argentina), Saddam Hussein, Mussolini(though cant find his novels anywhere), Hitler,Vladdy Len..."Trump did not write the books on which he is named as author, at least in any sense of the word "write" as it is commonly understood (which would include dictating to an amanuensis).
AB76 wrote: "has anyone read Trumps book he wrote? On a theme of premiers being writers we have Disraeli, Sarmiento(Argentina), Saddam Hussein, Mussolini(though cant find his novels anywhere), Hitler,Vladdy Len..."Churchill
Macron wrote a novel in his younger days, didn't he? I remember feeling curious about it at one time, though perhaps less so now after his many years in power.
Bill wrote: "Trump did not write the books on which he is named as author, at least in any sense of the word "write" as it is commonly understood (which would include dictating to an amanuensis)."I believe the actual writer or ghost-writer of Art of the Deal had some quite scathing things to say about him - as does almost everyone who's ever come into contact with him, it seems.
Berkley wrote: "Bill wrote: "Trump did not write the books on which he is named as author, at least in any sense of the word "write" as it is commonly understood (which would include dictating to an amanuensis)."..."
good replies....yes Churchill is right up there and no suprise Trump had it ghost written.
Saddams short stories were apparently rather unhinged but were key pillars of the Iraqi educational system for obvious reasons!
Mad Mao wrote some tripe too, i think Churchill and Disraeli were probably the best writer premiers in history. Churchill easily wrote the most but suprised he never tried a novel or two
Gpfr wrote: "Bill wrote: "Berkley wrote: "I'm an admirer of Davies's later books, from Fifth Business onwards, but have never gone back to try this earlier series...."I've enjoyed Davies works from Fifth Busi..."
Have you been to the Ethnographic Museum, in your home town? https://www.museedelhomme.fr/en/from-...? I have been writing about early modernism and the Cubist history, for my blog. I have resurrected an old essay of mine, and combined it with a review, of a neurobiologist's book, as to how the brain perceives 'Art', by Semir Zeki, a Professor (retired now I think), associated with UCL. I have this example of an image as how/why Picasso was inspired by colonial artefacts, gained throughout the long colonial history of France, from the 'Fang' tribal grouping in the Camaroon https://www.african-arts-gallery.com/...
This is the one I am using https://i.postimg.cc/jSGZTQrL/African.... I would be interested in any thoughts about the actual museum, if you have happened to go there, which I have not been to myself. But it seems that it was a popular stopping off place for many of the artists that were so influential in the early days of the rise of the 'Cubist' art movement, in the early 20th century. Any thoughts welcome...
Berkley wrote: "Macron wrote a novel in his younger days, didn't he? I remember feeling curious about it at one time, though perhaps less so now after his many years in power."i didnt know that. I like Manny Macron but i fear his snap election will backfire on him and he then has a dogfight of a last 3 years as President. Le Pen has created the veneer of a less caustic party than her old daddy led but it still peddles in hate and division, like Farage in the UK
AB76 wrote: "good replies....yes Churchill is right up there and no suprise Trump had it ghost written."Journalist Carlos Lozada, formerly of the Washington Post, now with the NY Times, reads politicians books with an eye to finding unintentional revelations. I recall that he had a long article, possibly more than one, in the WaPo about having read all the books nominally by Trump.
Berkley wrote: "I came across a short, positive review of this book tonight: Aftermath: Life in the Fallout of the Third Reich, 1945–1955. The review was of the French translation (Les Temps des Lo..."There is a French film, The Eye of Vichy, that shows what film lovers saw on the screen during the Occupation. Newsreels of Marshall Petain, short documentaries on changes in male fashion and domestic industry during days of shortages, Heydrich's visit to Vichy, the training of the Milice...
A French-made animated cartoon, showing Mickey, Donald, and Popeye as Allied airman bombing France...
Newsreel footage released after the Normandy landings...
Recommended.
Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Trump quote the Manchurian Candidate, i wonder if he read the book."C'mon @AB76, be fair. Nobody's read the book (well, I have, but I'm a total nerd who's also read [book:Laura|16922..."
True. I tried reading The Manchurian Candidate after seeing the film and gave up-- it felt padded, an odd thing in a short book. The Manchurian Candidate was pulp fiction with one interesting idea; the filmmakers took it and ran with it, helped by a good cast.
Gpfr wrote: "Bill wrote: "Berkley wrote: "I'm an admirer of Davies's later books, from Fifth Business onwards, but have never gone back to try this earlier series...."I've enjoyed Davies works from Fifth Busi..."
The Cunning Man has the rich plot and humor that I enjoy in Davies.
giveusaclue wrote: "Well I did qualify my comment by putting "from which I learn the facts as far as we ever can from a distance of centuries."It is difficult learning the true facts for the times we are living through!."
Fair enough - especially as these days certain bloviators have taken to replacing the truth with their "alternative facts".
Rider Haggard, a friend of Kipling's, mentions the loss of John Kipling in his wartime diaries. John Kipling vanished during a battle. Haggard's daughter, a hospital volunteer, knew two wounded soldiers who had served in Kipling's unit and fought in the same battle. When the two men recovered, Haggard invited them to lunch. After lunch, the novelist spoke to both men about John Kipling and the battle. Neither could tell Haggard anything definitive. Haggard decided that this interview would give no relief to Kipling and did not discuss it with him.
When Haggard's diaries were published decades later, one of the soldiers was still alive. He corroborated Haggard's account.
AB76 wrote: "Logger24 wrote: "Quite pleasant here in the mountains of the northeast, until this last week, when it turned steamy, with temps in the mid 90s (35C). Then thunderstorms came along to break that spe..."San Francisco also has buildings with no A/C-- and no proper insulation either.
I've read your interesting comments on autofiction... they tend to confirm my feeling that the term is somewhat slippery, and used in different ways by different people. I'm sympathetic, in that it seems very difficult to pin down the exact nature of literary genres, since they almost inevitably overlap. I've also been reading online articles about autofiction and the related genres of memoir and autobiography... these descriptions (I hesitate to call them 'definitions' because of overlap) seem useful:
"...what is the difference between memoir and autobiography? Well, they differ in their focus, scope, and style of storytelling.
A memoir is a narrative that focuses on a specific period, event, or theme in the author's life. It often includes reflections, thoughts, and emotions related to that period or event... Memoirs are inherently subjective, as they are based on the author's own memories and interpretations of events.
An autobiography... is a comprehensive account of the author's entire life from birth to the present. Autobiographies typically cover a wider range of topics and periods in the author's life , and tend to be more structured and chronological."
https://theurbanwriters.com/blogs/pub...
So I suppose that an autobiography is at least intended to be factually correct, whereas a memoir can take some liberties. No doubt autobiographies are also 'selective' with the way authors present the 'facts', though!
As for autofiction, these are some versions of what it means:
"autofiction" gets used to cover several different kinds of work. Jacques Lecarme and Eliane Lecarme-Tabon distinguish between "two types of autofictional novels: those which contain true facts presented in the style of a novel, and those which serve to fuse memories with the imaginary"
https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7....
(That is from an academic paper... only the beginning is open access.)
"The label of memoir comes with a promise: that the events described happened to you. Autofiction, on the other hand, promises an exploration of self. It is not just a fictionalized account of the author’s life, but a rendering of true experience in the midst of fictionalization—in which embellishments or deviations from reality may provide a commentary on the author’s journey.
For example, a work of autofiction might include a third-person narrator. It might include scenes for which the author wasn’t present, or even from before the author’s birth. It might take place in another world. It might incorporate elements of magical realism. The purpose behind these embellishments is to provide thematic or symbolic insights into the author's exploration of self, even as the narrative remains grounded in authentic experiences."
(from an interesting article by David Griffin Brown: https://darlingaxe.com/blogs/news/mem...)
Brown considers these well-known books to be examples of autofiction, even though they were published before the term was coined:
'The Bell Jar' (Plath)
'On the Road' (Kerouac)
'Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man' (Joyce)
I've read and enjoyed the last two, and have the Plath but have yet to read it.
I think that's as far as I want to take it... there's a risk of ending up looking like monks arguing about how many angels can dance on a pin! All I'd say is - writers should be free to use whatever style they think will suit the tale they have to tell - and they will do it either well or badly. 'Autoficion' appears to be a fashionable term in the literary world, but I could not care less for fashion. A book is either good (in each individual's opinion) or it isn't. Fashion should not come into it.
Edit: There is also an interesting article by Brooke Warner, who denies that autofiction even exists as a genre:
"The term autofiction serves a purpose when it is applied in its original meaning—to describe a novel that draws from real life—but autofiction is not and has never been a genre. You will not find autofiction as a category on Amazon, nor does it exist as a subject heading in the industry’s BISAC categorization system, which exists to help booksellers know where to shelve books. If an author has written a work of autofiction, the book can only be labeled as a novel, and as such it’s sold in the fiction section with fiction categories and fiction BISACs."
So that's the opinion from the bookseller POV! Here's the link - it's not a dry piece, despite that quote:
https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/b...
Bill wrote: "Speaking of writers who are the opposite of autofiction, fans of Charles Portis may enjoy this conversation with Jonathan Lethem, who reviewed the LOA Portis volume in a recent issue..."Don't know that one. I've enjoyed Portis' True Grit and The Dog of the South. This one sounds like a good read.
Mod
i didnt know that. I like Manny Macron but i fear his snap election will backfire on him ..."
Apparently he wrote 2 novels (unpublished) when he was 16-18 and has continued to write. When he was the presidential candidate in 2016, his book Révolution. C'est notre combat pour la France was published: son histoire personnelle, ses inspirations, sa vision de la France et de son avenir and he has participated in some other books. I haven't read any of them.
I think his failings are outweighing his qualities, although mentally comparing him with recent British leaders has often made him look good.
Dissolving the Assemblée was a stupidly reckless act which I'm afraid is going to backfire spectacularly. The first round of voting is today — not for me as I don't have French nationality.
Robert wrote: "Berkley wrote: "I came across a short, positive review of this book tonight: Aftermath: Life in the Fallout of the Third Reich, 1945–1955. The review was of the French translation (..."sounds good, i loved the Ophuls film The Sorrow and the Pity, which i have on DVD, might see if i can find it on a streaming service
Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Logger24 wrote: "Quite pleasant here in the mountains of the northeast, until this last week, when it turned steamy, with temps in the mid 90s (35C). Then thunderstorms came along to b..."Interesting, i know the SF climate is milder than much of California but does it get real horrible heat consistently?
Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Macron wrote a novel in his younger days, didn't he?"i didnt know that. I like Manny Macron but i fear his snap election will backfire on him ..."
Apparently he wrot..."
he didnt need to do it, as without representation in the assembly he could keep Le Pen chattering from the sidelines but now the danger is they get a significant role in the running of the state or simply the chance to stymie his program and the direction of France. the idea of Bardella as Prime Minister is a real concern.
scarletnoir wrote: "I've read your interesting comments on autofiction... they tend to confirm my feeling that the term is somewhat slippery, and used in different ways by different people. I'm sympathetic, in that it..."thanks for this scarlet, very interesting read
Re the discussion on political leaders as Authors, might Vaclav Havel be worth a mention?
Mod
Churchill did in fact write one novel, in his twenties – Savrola. I haven’t read it, or even seen a copy. Roy Jenkins gives a couple of pages to it in his biography. He calls it a roman-à-clef. The heroine Lucile is clearly modelled on his mother Lady Randolph. She is married to Morala (Lord Randolph?), the ruler-dictator of a Balkan Ruritania. Lucile is more ethereal and more chaste than the real Lady Randolph but even so she forsakes Morala for the young love interest, Savrola, who weirdly is modelled on Churchill himself, “vehement, high, and daring.” It sold respectably, initially in serial form.
Among 19th century PMs, Aberdeen, Derby and Gladstone all published studies or translations of the classics, but no novels.
Francis - Good spot with Havel.
Mod
Oh, yes!
When I was in Prague some years ago, I bought his Letters to Olga, written in prison from June 1979 to September 1982. Remarkable.
Francis wrote: "Re the discussion on political leaders as Authors, might Vaclav Havel be worth a mention?"yes, he published a lot of plays, i have a collection of his on my pile
scarletnoir wrote: "'Autoficion' appears to be a fashionable term in the literary world, but I could not care less for fashion."Thoroughly researched, @scarletnoir. You've looked into the term in more depth than I could muster the energy to do.
My habit with unfamiliar literary terms is to associate them with specific authors or works once I have read several critics apply the term to them. So, in my mind, "autofiction" was identified as "that Annie Ernaux stuff", just like I originally thought of "magic realism" as "that One Hundred Years of Solitude stuff".
Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "'Autoficion' appears to be a fashionable term in the literary world, but I could not care less for fashion."Thoroughly researched, @scarletnoir. You've looked into the term in..."
i like Ernaux and you have reminded me to order some more of her work!
AB76 wrote: "i like Ernaux and you have reminded me to order some more of her work!"I don't recall that I was aware of her before the Nobel prize. Even then she was just a name until I read reviews of The Young Man about her affair with a man 30 years younger.
I've found it fairly odious reading accounts by aging American male authors of affairs with a similar age discrepancy, and didn't think an account by a female in a similar relationship would suit me much better.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Ersatz TLS
Books mentioned in this topic
True Grit (other topics)Masters of Atlantis (other topics)
The Young Man (other topics)
One Hundred Years of Solitude (other topics)
Letters to Olga (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Annie Ernaux (other topics)Charles Portis (other topics)
Charles Portis (other topics)
Thomas Pynchon (other topics)
Robertson Davies (other topics)
I could no..."
Well I did qualify my comment by putting "from which I learn the facts as far as we ever can from a distance of centuries."
It is difficult learning the true facts for the times we are living through!