"This Is How You Lose the Time War" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

Come share all your thoughts about this time travel scifi!

Some questions to get us started:

1. What did you think of the interweaving POVs?
2. What did you think of the plot?
3. What did you think of the prose?
4. What worked or didn't for you?
5. Overall thoughts?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

[DivaDiane]

So I read this a few years ago and loved it. I will wait until some other people start commenting until I join in. I will say that I know Amal El-Mohtar as a particularly evocative speculative poet and have read a lot of her poetry and love it. I could see her style shining through a lot of this book.

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I am sort of looking forward to Allison's rant but I too enjoyed it when I read it. I think I started and finished on a (very)long plane flight and it seemed to fit my mood at the time.

[CJ]

I had this on my TBR list since it came out, finally read it last year and immediately re-read it after reading it in one sitting. I want to reread it again. It's easily one of my fav novels on all time. There is something a bit haunting for me about time-traveling love stories that tends to stay with me, and that this used an experimental narrative approach, one that I felt worked very well for the novel, as well as being the combination work of 2 authors, really made it quite a unique book.

One thing I liked, that I didn't think I liked until I gave it some thought afterward, was how vague the warring factions are. In the end I found that helped focus me as the reader on the 2 main characters and their own need to connect with each other, as their own relative connections to their origins and home faction are vague and unsatisfying, and how that feeds into a kind of subliminal sympathy for the main characters' need to connect.

[WTEK]

When I first started this I was like another book with an overly complicated time travel scenario and a gimmicky back and forth POV. But then I got sucked into it. It was a fast read and the different POVs and the letters wove back and forth, creating the braid of time that they mention later. It actually was a beautiful story and even though I figured out who the seeker was before the reveal, it didn't make any less enjoyable.

The idea of the warring factions being nature and technology, but both were equally destructive and cruel was interesting. The little details of each snippet of time, the flow of the letters, the incomprehensible breadth of time their relationship developed across all created a dreamlike surreality to it. I didn't need to know how they moved. I didn't need to know what the end scenario for either faction looked like. I just needed to see how Red and Blue got through it all.

[Tiny]

I envy those that are reading this book for the first time.
and for those that already read it, I give you an amazing "post credit scene" fan fic:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/202...

(No, I did not write this, but the author herself recommended it somewhere. can't remember where though, so you'd have to trust me :) )

[DivaDiane]

Oh, that is by Scott Lynch, who is a well-known author of Fantasy.

[Kandice]

Tiny wrote: "I envy those that are reading this book for the first time.
and for those that already read it, I give you an amazing "post credit scene" fan fic:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/202...

(No, ..."

Thank you for sharing that! I fell in love with this book when I first read it and somehow missed this.

[Meredith]

Tiny wrote: "I envy those that are reading this book for the first time.
and for those that already read it, I give you an amazing "post credit scene" fan fic:
https://archiveofourown.org/works/202...

(No, ..."

omg, that was awesome! Thank you for sharing.

[Chris]

CJ wrote: "One thing I liked, that I didn't think I liked until I gave it some thought afterward, was how vague the warring factions are."

I thought that almost everything was vague. I didn't feel that I got to know the characters and what they were up to, apart from writing letters. More importantly, I kept thinking that I didn't have a reason to care about them.

I know that I'm not alone in being allergic to romance as the main plot. I don't mind a love interest on the side, but a full blown romance front and center doesn't interest me.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

hear hear Chris

[Elaine]

OK, that fan fiction was The Best! I read this book only in February and am having trouble remembering it. All I recall is being thoroughly confused for about 90 percent of it and then wondering what the actual queer content was that this made so many lists. I did like the characters, eventually.

[CJ]

I suspect one reason people who don't connect with this story feel that way is because, as as a queer person, I find it to be a deeply queer story and sure, that is not going to resonate with some (maybe even some queers since we're not all the same).

But this is much more than romance. It's about identity, connection and existing in worlds where you are perpetually an outsider, an "other," and finding someone who recognizes you, who can find you amid all the other persons, who seeks you out, amid cultures and events that people normally get themselves caught up in and allow to fill their lives and attention spans, often leaving little room to notice anything that falls outside those occupations, to notice anything "queer".

The two protagonists must move through the worlds in which they exist yet don't actually belong--hidden, disguised, not obvious--communicating to each other in ways only they both recognize as meaningful--of possessing something being communicated--while being missed by those "in that time". And as we queer people often find, with just that act alone, that act of connecting with other queers, or recognizing one another, comes consequences. A transgression has been made (I think many people have grow indifferent to how queerness is still very much a transgression in our world) so there is the ever lingering threat of stigma, ostracization and punishment.

The way the novel relates all this is very poetic and metaphorical, and so it not going to as "concrete" in its narrative--but that too speak of queerness, in my view. It's not without reason that queer people in many cultures and eras have gravitated toward the arts, to music, drama, literature and poetry, to express their perspectives and experiences, to transcend ordinary ways of communicating. Ordinary language often excludes our perspectives, it doesn't talk about us or include us. I mean, we queers have had to literally invent words to talk about ourselves and our experiences because the language given to us didn't come with them, well, aside from all the slurs meant to tell us we are bad, disgusting and deserving of violence and exclusion.

So ultimately, I don't find the poetics and vagueness of this novel lacking in something I as a queer person can connect to--rather I find it liberating and transcendent of the ordinary where we queer people often speak without being heard or understood or our words misconstrued, that is, if we are allowed to speak at all.

[Raucous]

I read this 4 years ago and even though I'm a little fuzzy on specific details, I clearly remember being quite taken with it. I loved the lyrical prose. The evolution of the relationship between Red and Blue, as reflected in their letters, was fascinating, as were the increasingly inventive and ludicrous methods that they used to hide it. I appreciated the way that these two unmoored time travelers found each other despite so many obstacles in their way.

This was one of my favorites reads that year. I liked it enough that I made a point of looking for more from both authors.

[Kaia]

Raucous wrote: "I read this 4 years ago and even though I'm a little fuzzy on specific details, I clearly remember being quite taken with it. I loved the lyrical prose. The evolution of the relationship between Re..."

Raucous, I also read this several years back, and your description of what you liked about it really resonates with my own feelings about the story. I liked it so much, in fact, that I actually bought a copy for myself. (I originally borrowed the book from the library, but this was one I thought I would probably re-read and wanted to own.)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Interesting, I find it extremely heteronormative. I can see the queer proxy, but that is not at all how it felt to me. This felt like a seduction and a game among poets, and we are all meant to feel awe at their prowess. I am extremely not interested in these types of games.

That said, I am open to hearing more! This sounds like it will be the VBC for this month, so I welcome those who want to discuss queerness in specfic, co-opting of queerness as virtue signaling, time travel both as a trope and as a concept for self reflection, and other such topics to join us!

[Kaa]

Allison, I've known you for a while so I feel confident of your good intentions here, and maybe there is more context to your invitation that I'm missing. However, while Max Gladstone is to the best of my knowledge a straight cisgender man, Amal El-Mohtar identifies as a bisexual woman so I am having some very strong negative feelings about the suggestion that this work may be "co-opting... queerness as virtue signaling".

I do also disagree with you about the overall queerness of the work, which I would be much more open to discussing. And while this felt like a game to me as well, I thought it was a playful game where the reader is meant to be able to join the writers in their joy of the written world.

[Chris]

I don't see how the text itself has any deep connection to queerness. If memory serves, the fact that the two characters are female is the only queer aspect. We don't know how unusual or stigmatized ff relationships are in that world. Maybe they don't identify as substantially different from other couples in terms of sexuality. It would have been easy to insert LGBQT+ identity into the story, but the authors didn't choose to do it. As it is, we really don't know what ff means to the characters. Perhaps we can extrapolate that ff doesn't mean much to them since neither comments on it.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I apologize for my comment and how I see it can be construed. I meant to convey that a topic I think this novella brings up is what does author choice of character identity do for a story, and whether in this case it is relevant to the world or plot.

Apologies again for my poor choice of words.

[Kaa]

Thanks, Allison. I am thinking about how to explain why this book felt queer to me. It isn't just the gender/sexuality of the protagonists.

[Ryan]

I have no comment on the queerness, or lack thereof.

In order to give Allison more ammo regarding my recent posts in this group, here is my review.

DNF. Even nearly halfway through the book, I had little idea of the overall plot, and I had no idea what each agent was actually trying to accomplish at each time and location. After reading some reviews I realize this was the point, but to me that sounds like poor storytelling. The letters were uninteresting. The prose, also, was not to my taste.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

In this particular case I don't blame you, Dash! haha

[WTEK]

To me, the genders of the two MC didn't have the impact that maybe it did for some other readers. I felt the main thrust of the story was the act of falling for each other and how turning into their own side affected how they interacted with their initial faction. I can see how that can be a classic queer theme, but it also could resonate with anyone who feels apart from a main group in society.

[a.g.e. montagner]

Is anyone familiar with Paper Girls?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

yes, I am

[Artemisia]

Ryan wrote: "I have no comment on the queerness, or lack thereof.

In order to give Allison more ammo regarding my recent posts in this group, here is my review.

DNF. Even nearly halfway through the book, I ha..."

Hi there!

First: sorry for my poor English.

I've tried to read this book a while ago, in English: I'm used to read in English but, in this case, I experienced many difficulties. It's not just how it is written: it's confusing. The plot lacks of coherence, I can't understand and follow both protagonist's behaviour...it's just frustrating. I had to give up. So I completely agree with you.

[Kandice]

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "Is anyone familiar with Paper Girls?"

Yes, I've read the comics and seen the show on Prime.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Artemisia, no apologies necessary! We are a thoroughly global group :)

I don't disagree, I think much of this story is rather confusing.

[a.g.e. montagner]

The concept of a time war reminded me of Paper Girls. But it's becoming common: The Peripheral, William Gibson's perhaps less known graphic novel Archangel, obviously Tenet, the X-Men comics ever since the '90s at least...

[Sarah]

I’m not a fan of epistolary style novels in general (feels like watching reality TV for some reason), so I knew I’d be lukewarm about this one. It’s proving to be more vibes than story, and a lot of tongue in cheek. But I’m not hating it! Still 70% to go…

[Jaylia3]

I finished this today and enjoyed it a lot, but it was a DNF for me when it came out. This time I knew more what to expect, thanks in part to our group discussion, so I was better prepared for the book's style. Love stories and epistolary novels aren't normally my thing, but I was swept up by this story anyway.

Time Wars suits one of my current reading preferences because I'm in a phase where I'm enjoying (rather than being irritated by) books that are so rich or expansive or complicated that I sometimes only have a sense of what's going on, especially the first time through. Ancillary Justice was like that for me back in the day, and more recently The Ministry of Time and The Mars House.

[Sarah]

What did people think of the ending??

[a.g.e. montagner]

Not really surprising?
I mean, what did you expect?

[Jaylia3]

I do wonder how much Red and Blue will enjoy a quiet life in some out of the way downthread haven. Though if they're being hunted fiercer than ever maybe it won't be so quiet.

[a.g.e. montagner]

I might be jumping to postscripts before having rewied the book (though I'm working on that), but... Let's do a bit of casting. Who do you see in the roles?

[Kandice]

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "I might be jumping to postscripts before having rewied the book (though I'm working on that), but... Let's do a bit of casting. Who do you see in the roles?"

I constantly cast books in my mind, but I think the reason I loved this book so much, despite romance not usually being my thing, is that I wasn't really imagining them as people, rather some unimaginable being that changed human faces every time they actually interacted with a thread.

[a.g.e. montagner]

True, and one of the reasons I'm perversely curious about this.

Incidentally I keep thinking of this as a group re-read. Strange that it wasn't a Book of the Month earlier.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

we only recently allowed novellas!

[a.g.e. montagner]

I still don't think of anything above 200 pages as a novella, but this has been awarded as such, so I see the mods' point.

[Tara]

Evocative—wow the imagery!
It’s clear that Sappho mused the stuffing out of Gladstone and El-Mohtar inspiring a brilliant synergy as evidenced by Red and Blue’s splendiferous lyrical journey. I was one maybe two pages into the novel when I rather excitedly realized a nexus between Shusterman’s brills Bruiser and How to Lose a Time War: both are character driven and chock full with poetic literary allusions. There was so much in both novels to twist your brain pretzel like. I readily admit to being so absorbed by both novels that I read/reread hem multiple times in a week.

There were many moments where I wondered if some things were intentional by the authors. I mean there are pages of purple prose and the MCs collectively are a color—purple—that doesn’t even make the spectrum. Did they chose a color that could only exist in our brains and not in nature. Did they consider color psychology as they were crafting Red and Blue’s march to love through their spatio-temporal Plato Esque dialogue? If you think just a bit it about any of that i found it brings up even more to break your brain with wonder.

I have to admit I failed to find anything objectionable or annoying about the novel. The closest I came to something of note is the label sapphic romance. In the strictest sense yes, the label is correct, but I think the world so disregards gender as to render it moot. So accepting of gender as neutral that pronouns seem of no consequence in Blue and Red’s world.

p.s.
As I was collecting thoughts to share I flitted over yesterdays query of the importance of the label timeless and posit this book might just epitomize what it means to be timeless. What could be more profound than two souls impossibly finding each other.

[a.g.e. montagner]

As anticipated, here's my review of the novel. Feedbacks appreciated!

[Sarah]

Tara - great insights!

[a.g.e. montagner]

In retrospect, the performativity that CJ mentioned earlier in the thread is probably the most interesting aspect of the novel.

[Ann]

I really loved this book. I didn’t see Red and Blue as human but as some type of other beings. They were products of two different and opposing factions, the humanness of their story is that they made a connection despite their differences and they were deemed enemies. I think this is a reflection for our current times of so much hate of the otherness that is ingrained in our current culture that we can be reminded that we can connect and love those that we previously have seen as an enemy. I love that a short story can remind me of that lesson and it doesn’t hurt that is written beautifully and set in an interesting world.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

We'll be discussing this in VBC this Sunday! Follow that thread for more details.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Becca]

Listened to this at work today, and while I had to restart a few times to fully immerse myself (work distractions galore) I ultimately enjoyed this. This book gave me SciFi Romeo & Juliet (sans tragic ending) vibes. And yes, I agree with @Ann because I didn't picture Red and Blue as human either, but the connection between them definitely was. I also enjoyed the writing style/prose.