[June 2024] (Trouble On) Triton

[a.g.e. montagner]

This topic is a buddy read for Triton (later retitled Trouble on Triton) by Samuel R. Delany, planned for June 2024, but hopefully useful for future use & reference.

It is also meant to work in conjunction with the discussion for The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin, to which it is in part a response. Everybody is welcome to join.

[a.g.e. montagner]

An article on the book in Reactor magazine (former tor.com):
https://reactormag.com/i-am-a-reasona...

[k.]

are we still on for this?

[a.g.e. montagner]

We surely are!

I probably won't get to this until later in the month, though: I have a line to clear, which incidentally includes Le Guin and also Babel-17. Basically my plan is to go from zero to two Delany in a month.

[a.g.e. montagner]

Anybody is obviously welcome to start without me.
I'd be inclined to use spoiler tags, but htat's just my style.

[Barry]

I'm likely to start reading Triton tomorrow.

@a.g.e. montagner I have read Babel-17 before, and whilst I remember it being okay I really can't remember anything about it. There is my review here if you want to have a look (it's spoiler free) https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... but I'm kind of thinking based on how little I wrote how I didn't have to many take-aways. I find Delany an interesting writer who writes beautifully.

[a.g.e. montagner]

Thanks for the insight.

I've often seen Delany's poetical prose praised and it might be a draw for me. Moreover, I have a keen interest in linguistics, so that's an added bonus, and part of the reason why I jumped at the chance of reading this instead of proceeding chronologically into Delany's bibliography, which was my original intent.

[rrroman]

hi, how book club organized? and how all it works? Is there discussions/assignments/etc? thankx

[Barry]

I don't think there is any organisation other than read the book suggested and discuss it. We've had The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia suggested for May and Trouble on Triton: An Ambiguous Heterotopia suggested for June by a.g.e. montagner. There are only a few of us about so can I suggest if you want to join in just read one or both of the books and comment in the relative threads (tagging spoilers if necessary).

We can keep it nice and loose and if anyone wants to suggest anything relevant to anarchism we can have a thread a month or something.

[a.g.e. montagner]

I'm still new to this group's book club, but I guess it won't differ much from the others.

These are buddy reads: I proposed and people join as and when they like.
Read the novel(s) and tell us what you think. You might do that by chapters or all in one go. I'm a fan of spoiler tags, but really just because I love to see the hidden text pop up. Have I forgotten anything?

[Barry]

So I have started on Triton, having read the first chapter. Some brief thoughts in spoiler tags below (I'm not particularly scholarly or anything but whatever...

(view spoiler)[A chapter in and I know what it is that I both love and struggle with when reading Delany. I imagine one type of reader could take copious notes and read then re-read and continually think about how wonderfully clever and intricate his words are, and how each page is imbued with meaning and hidden signifiers.
Then there is the other reader, like me, who just wants a casual fun read. I don't think Delany is particularly accessible, and when he is hard to get to grips with, the easiest thing to do is just follow him around. Marvel at his words. Share wonder at what he presents and the magic of his remarkable vision. Like watching a film in a different language you can't understand but can still follow. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. The tropes are here.
Overthinking fluid sexuality. Bouncing around hidden languages and linguistics. As a contrast to The Dispossessed we're already presented in the first chapter with an area without law, and choice over habitation arrangements. It already feels more liberated than the austere world of Anarres. Let's see what chapter 2 brings... (hide spoiler)]

[Barry]

Some thoughts now at the end of chapter two. Also here is a trigger warning for (view spoiler)[discussion of adult/child sexual relationships (hide spoiler)] in my spoiler below.

(view spoiler)[ The chapter is mostly about the main character's living arrangements and playing some kind of 3d tactical wargame which whilst it draws on wargames and chess kind of feels like it has a load of D&D / 40K mash-up roleplay elements, showing Delany is a somewhat accurate visionary of how imagination and maths come together in play - maybe. There is also long discussions of sci-fi babble, a lot of discussion of sex, sexuality and gender. I suppose I should flag this, because it appears in Dhalgren to an extent but Delany's fiction often alludes to adult / child sexual relationships. I get it was the 70's but sometimes I think he veers to close to paedophilia apologism in the language of sexual liberation (two characters are introduced, one an adult, one a ten year old boy who walks around naked who the main character assumes are lovers). The casual nods to this are uncomfortable to read to be honest as they seem throwaway and for colour, rather than an important part of the story. This said, Delany's characters often have a fantastical element to them, and are a vehicle for exploring ideas and concepts. You either run with it or you don't I guess (hide spoiler)]

[Barry]

Chapter 3 quick musings (view spoiler)[ This is where we really start to see the response to The Dispossesed and the notion of a benevolent government that cannot be wrong begin to shine. There are also wobbles in the 'government is never wrong' which is similar to the freedom and coordinating structures in The Dispossessed and the thought that it can't be wrong. Even though there are jobs and credit limits and areas without 'law' there is still a degree of relative comfort and freedom. Is it better than Anares? in some respects yes, but it is a different approach on 'people's needs are met' with more time for play, sex, interests and jobs which are not functional for survival. Like in The Dispossessed I don't like the main character Bron much. I expect to see the contrast with the moon utopia with life on Earth. (hide spoiler)]

[a.g.e. montagner]

Hi Barry and everybody, I'll get to this as soon as I can. Babel-17 and Triton are next in my queue!

Meanwhile I posted some thoughts on The Dispossessed.

[Barry]

So I am quite a bit further on, and I really wouldn't recommend clicking the spoiler tag if you are going to read this or The Dispossed because I do share things happening in the book which will spoil things

(view spoiler)[ I could probably write a lot about the last few chapters but in short we have a 'war in the afternoon' that leaves billions dead. Bron has the best dumping ever and changes their gender becoming a woman.

The war is treated almost like a natural disaster, a sabotage on infrastructure or a bomb attack and lots of people on Triton die. This war without soldiers is quite a shock to the utopia of Triton, but we hear at the same time how Mars, Earth and a whole bunch of moons have experienced genocide to the tune of 80-100% of the population. And it is kind of passed over as 'ohh that's a shame' and life continues. It reminds me of Western democracies where the psyche is harmed for generations following terror attacks, whilst they have an almost abstract casual attitude to war at their hands far away. Delany is imagining cyber attacks, drone warfare, economic warfare in the shadow of the bomb. Similar to the analogies of the Cold War in the Dispossessed it's hard not to see the same themes here. That sense of detachment that is present today to the suffering of the other.

Bron's dumping letter by Spike is brilliant. I don't particularly like Bron, and sometimes I think Delany uses him to explore his own mindset related to sexuality and gender. The letter from Spike is brilliant- Delany holds this mirror up to Bron and tells him everything he has missed. it's superb - not only is it a response to Bron's inherent selfishness and self absorption, it is also a critique of the attempted rape in the Dispossessed and the sexual neurosis of humanity more generally. Triton certainly can be read independently, but reading this as a response to another book certainly opens my eyes.

Indeed Bron is infuriating. She changes gender not because she wants to be a woman or feels they are one, but because his logic brain thinks there is a 1 in 5000 chance of meeting a woman she will be sexually and emotionally compatible with, so she decides if she becomes a woman she will even the odds. There is part of me that thinks there is an 'incel' undercurrent here but that's maybe my interpretation. Rather it more exposes Bron for who she is, rather than a critique of 'women'.

Enjoying this, but Delany and Bron are infuriating! Delany at least you have to just run with and explore everything that's going on! (hide spoiler)]

[Barry]

I've put a review up for Triton here. It will have spoilers in it for reader beware

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[a.g.e. montagner]

I've been set back by various mishaps, including the collpase of my e-reader and then of my body (both solved, luckily). In the meantime I've managed to read my first Delany, Babel-17. Like many before me I've found it brilliant; this might not be the proper place to talk about it, but I've proceeded immediately to Triton (pun intended, I'm afraid).