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Mary Barton
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Mary Barton by Elizabeth Gaskell - Group Read (hosted by Claudia) 1st thread
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A sombre atmosphereI have highlighted the references to time and dates in my summary. They seem important, otherwise Mrs Gaskell would not have insisted on such details.
- In her conversation with Will, Mary says that her father is going to Liverpool by train, but does not know which train. John does not answer Will's question either.
- The whole sequence unfolds from late afternoon until 9 pm at the earliest.
- Alice's stroke happened after Will left, but before Margaret arrived at the Wilsons'.
- Jem was not at home when Margaret arrived. Nevertheless, Margaret stayed at the Wilsons' for a relatively long time, but Jem had not returned by the time she left.
This mysterious (and ominous) atmosphere is heightened by John Barton's obviously erratic behaviour and Mary's weird feelings, skillfully and thoroughly described.
A breaking pointThis “let us leave him” indicates a very abrupt break in the narrative voice - who often reminds the reader by addressing him directly. The narrator seems to want to sever all ties with John Barton.
He leaves the scene in the mists of the city, leaving Mary worried without really knowing why. He walks away from us, the readers, leaving us with a dark foreboding already at the end of chapter 16, since we know that the trade unionists, disheartened by the failure of the negotiations and deeply outraged by the caricature, have decided, by drawing lots, to kill someone. But we don't know who drew the lot, nor who exactly was going to be murdered.
This narrative breaking point shifts the plot into a very different genre.
Trains of thoughtsIn 1830, the Liverpool & Manchester Railway opened. It was the first steam passenger train in Britain (and even in Europe) which was locomotive hauled (steam engine) and did not use animal power (horses).
The line had the first timetables for passengers and proper stations with ticketing offices and platforms, and two tracks to allow trains to travel simultaneously back and forth. Previously there had been several short distances served by a railway but only for the transporting of coal from mines.
It allowed to provide faster transport of raw materials, finished goods and passengers between the Port of Liverpool and the cotton mills and factories of Manchester and surrounding towns. Before, good were transported between Liverpool and Manchester via canals or poor-quality roads.
Irish BlessingJohn Barton’s encounter with the lost boy is moving. When he brings him back to his mother, the latter says an Irish blessing, which deeply touches John for many reasons.
This short scene reminds us of the many Irish citizens who came over to England, and most particularly to big industrial cities, during the terrible years of starvation and the “hungry decade” in the 1840ies. They found work for, indeed, “starvation wages”, because they were so desperate that they accepted very low salaries. They were those among the low-wage workers nicknamed “knobsticks” mentioned in this novel, who were hired as a substitute to the strikers. We find them mentioned also in North and South.
Friedrich Engels, not least because of his two Irish wives (or partners), had a fascination for Ireland and reported about Manchester’s Little Ireland in the 1840ies. For those who wish to dig deeper, here is a link to some interesting resources.
https://www.theirishstory.com/2015/08...
Here is the most popular Irish Blessing:
“May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face;
the rains fall soft upon your fields
and until we meet again,
may God hold you in the palm of His hand”
I am holding my breath. Are you too?
Claudia wrote: "I am holding my breath. Are you too?"Yes, I haven't read the next chapter, but I'm fearful of what John Barton and the other Union members are planning. Gaskell has left us with a cliffhanger.
It feels like we’re on the edge of a cliff. So many characters are in precarious situations right now. So much to come…hopefully in the next chapter! Gaskell really captures the emotional sense of everyone in this chapter. The usually upbeat Will is frustrated and sad. Mary doesn’t know what to make of her father’s behavior and has difficulty even being polite while Job remains in the house talking. John is acting odd even for him but shows his underlying goodness helping the lost child. Even Margaret is sad and very worried about Alice now. There are no positives in her life now. And Jem isn’t around so Mary can’t even be glad that he’s providing support at home where he’s needed. Where is he? So much to resolve.
Okay, I’m being a stickler for detail, but I’m wondering why Mary is home from work already. Earlier we were told she works into the evening and has her tea at work.
KathleenOn the other hand we don't know at what time she began working that day and she might as well be back home already.
However we were told in chapter 10 that Miss Simmonds did not give her workers anything to eat, due to her "feeling the effects of bad times". She also had less orders, therefore less work. Miss Simmonds herself did not have her tea until work was done and workers gone.
Re. details: I checked the distance from Manchester Ancoats (Aldi Supermarket) to downtown Liverpool and found approximately 35 miles. It is said by Google maps to be doable in 12 hours. People were walking much more back then - we saw this in Oliver Twist or in Dombey and Son.
Claudia, thanks for the clarification! I had forgotten about the change in her work arrangement. I just like my authors to remember their setups, and have fun when they mess up :-)Thanks for the mileage info. It will take Will all night and then some to get to Liverpool.
It seems that everyone is in turmoil at the moment, except for Job.
I feel exactly the same as Sue has expressed. This is very precarious for all involved but Job! I also wonder where Jem could be? Surely he won’t be getting caught up in this Union nonsense. John seems to know more and maybe that’s why he doesn’t want to talk.I wish Will had spoken to Margaret before leaving. I think this is another instance of poor communication. What is going to happen next? I’m so anxious.
Are we reading a chapter tomorrow or is it a day off?
Thanks all!Good point Sue and Lori about Job: he seems to be an impartial observer.
We are reading chapter 18 on Friday 10 May.
Chapter 18On Thursday evening, just before 8pm at the Carson family home.
While Mr Carson is asleep in an armchair in the dining room, Mrs Carson is in her room suffering from a headache, and their three daughters are in the drawing room. Helen, the eldest, is tired from the previous evening's ball, while Sophy and Amy, the youngest, are busy discussing songs and their brother's sentimental life. His latest conquest seems to be a Jane Richardson, but no doubt he will find another, prettier one.
Sophy, who seems to have a practical mind, rings for Parker, the servant, to bring tea. Neither of them notices, or even looks at, his white ”terror-stricken face”. A servant enters, called Nurse, in fact the girls’ former nurse, who has had a closer relationship with them. She too is visibly shaken and informs the sisters that their brother Harry has just been brought home dead. He was shot in Turner Street. Nurse wants the sisters to wake up their father and break the news to him. The police are in the house and want to speak to him.
Mr Carson is devastated. We gradually learn how it happened: Harry was found in that "lonely, unfrequented way" by a policeman who was visibly on his rounds. The moon had not yet risen and it was very dark, but the "footsteps of a man running away could still be heard. The policemen are still at the scene. The Superintendent is expected at Carson's any minute.
Harry is taken to his room and is now lying on his bed. Mrs Carson's "hysterical screams" are heard, but she soon questions the truth of it all. Harry is not dead, he is only pretending to sleep, he is even smiling.
While Mrs Carson has visibly lost her senses, and the girls are "startled into the reality of life and death", the Superintendent has a long talk with Mr Carson and informs him that:
- A gun has been found in a neighbouring field.
- One of the policemen has a clue: he saw a young foundry worker arguing and fighting with Harry in the same place, threatening him after Harry told the policeman who was about to arrest the worker to let him go.
Mr Carson is determined to have the perpetrator arrested. He would give his entire fortune "to see the murderer hanged". "Spare no money," he says, when the Chief Constable suggests that he should offer "a handsome reward" of £1000 to anyone who could help find his son's murderer.
It is now Friday. It is very early. Mr Carson wants the killer hanged "next week".
A coroner's inquest is due at 10.00 am.
While the Superintendent stresses the need to respect legal procedures and timetables, Mrs Gaskell spontaneously interrupts the narrative voice to comment on Mr Carson's tone of vengeance.
A few commentsHarry Carson’s unexpected and violent death sheds a completely different light on this family and even on the deceased.
The beginning of the chapter features a wealthy family: different occupations or preoccupations, everyone upstairs is in a different room, while the servants downstairs are taking care of their masters’ material needs. Of course, it is a perfect contrast with all that we have read before.
When Harry is brought home dead, shot in the temple by someone yet unidentified, their world is collapsing as would our world collapse, as has already the Bartons’ and the Wilsons' world, or Mrs Davenport’s world collapsed when loved ones died.
The narrative voice shows how everyone is reacting to this in their own way: Mrs Carson is confused and still denying the reality, Harry’s sisters are devastated as they are most probably facing death for the first time in their sheltered lives, Mr Carson is bereaved but soon overcomes his first reaction and wants to seek the killer and have him hanged right away, the sooner, the better.
Even if Harry was not quite someone I would like to have met, I realised in this chapter that he too was somebody’s son and brother…
Chapters 17 and 18 are interesting in the perspective of storytelling: they are set only at one place (at the Bartons' and at the Carsons'), they are contrasted, and their respective actions takes place approximately at the same time.
Still, there is a grey zone inbetween.
A Coroner’s inquest(very simplified)
Coroner’s inquest aims to determine the cause of a death as soon as a death is deemed questionable, as in this instance. We remember a Coroner’s inquest in Bleak House too.
The Coroner is hearing witnesses with a jury. This leads to conclusions where it is stated that the death was “natural”, or the result of “accident” or caused by “suicide” or “unlawful or lawful killing”.
This provides context surrounding a death and enables a legal procedure to be carried out when it is stated that it was the result of unlawful killing.
I am looking forward to your comments!See you again on Sunday 12 May for chapter 19 on thread two!
To those who have not quite caught up and still want to comment: please comment up to chapter 18 on this thread, and indicate (as you already do) the chapter number you are commenting on.
Chapter 18Even though I didn't like how Harry was treating Mary, the scenes at the Carson home reminded me how he was loved by his family and how he died at such a young age. The Carson family was devastated, and the only way Mr Carson could deal with his feelings was to want the murderer hanged. While this is understandable, his demand that the responsible person must be hanged next week means that the person is not going to get a fair trial. Anyone that the police arrests will be hung in a few days because the wealthy Mr Carson has influence with the police.
Thanks for your summary, Claudia. This chapter showed the love the Carsons had for their family, and their reactions to the death of a child. We've seen so many deaths of the starving children of the mill workers in earlier chapters. I wonder if Mr Carson is capable of realizing that his workers are feeling the same emotions with the death of a loved child.
Connie wrote: "Chapter 18Even though I didn't like how Harry was treating Mary, the scenes at the Carson home reminded me how he was loved by his family and how he died at such a young age. The Carson family wa..."
Great comments!
Indeed Connie, Mr Carson insists much on money. The investigation may be rushed - they are already holding a lead.
Here we are seeing that not only the poor can suffer loss while in a very dramatically different manner. We also see the contrast in how the poor handle deaths of their loved ones versus how the rich and influential handle it. The poor bear the suffering with all that they have (which is not much) and the rich do as well. The difference here is the vengeful nature that Mr. Carson exudes and how he can use his wealth to get results. We know who the police are going to question first after mention of the quarrel between Harry and Jem. But I can’t actually believe that Jem could kill Harry over Mary. I am more inclined to think John Barton is more guilty after his behavior in the last chapter. And then, with the inquest, who will be witnesses? Will Esther have been lurking about and seen something important? We haven’t heard from her for a while so I think it’s time for her to return.
It was interesting to see how the Carson family interacts and we got to meet the sisters and hear the insignificance of their leisurely life. I thought it was strange that the servants told the sisters and then asked one of the sisters to tell their father. Did anyone else think this odd? Seems that someone should have woken Mr. Carson and had the policeman talk to him.
Lori, I had the same feeling about the Nurse waking the teenage girls so they could give the father the terrible news. Normally, the parents would give the news to the children. It reminded me of the old saying, "Don't shoot the messenger." It sounds like the servants are afraid of Mr Carson, and the daughter was told to break the news to her father in small steps. Maybe the servants wanted to give Mr Carson a chance to compose himself, and not break down crying in front of the policeman back in the days when men were not supposed to show their emotions.
The Coroner will most probably hear the doctor who had ascertained Harry's unnatural death, as an expert witness, and of course the policeman who found him first, heard rushed steps, whistled for the others to join and search the area and find the weapon.
Claudia, such a comparison between the two chapters. Both carried issues of loss, with Will’s departure and Alice’s apparent stroke followed by the death of Harry. The main difference is that the Carson family will suffer in no state of want and Mr. Carson can pay to find a killer, even if it should be the wrong person. He just wants revenge not justice. The trades men who made the pledge and drew lots agreed to a killing thinking they are working for justice not vengeance against those who have stolen their livelihood.
Sue wrote: "Claudia, such a comparison between the two chapters. Both carried issues of loss, with Will’s departure and Alice’s apparent stroke followed by the death of Harry. The main difference is that the C..."Yes Sue, there is an interesting time and event synchronisation between the two chapters. Indeed both carried an issue of loss.
Lori wrote: "But I can’t actually believe that Jem could kill Harry over Mary. I am more inclined to think John Barton is more guilty after his behavior in the last chapter..."I agree, Lori. I don't believe Jem would kill Harry. Although John Barton was acting strange and edgy in the last chapter and he was part of the "lottery" the Union had, I don't think he's capable of murder either. I am curious about what has him so edgy.
In regards to the lottery pact to kill a mill owner, I don't think Harry is high enough up the ladder of ownership yet to warrant being included. The murderer would have gone more for his father, I would think. However, I could be wrong because Harry was at the meeting.
Somehow, this murder seems like something different than the Union workers pact to kill. If so, what could Harry have been mixed up in?
Gaskell has written a murder mystery, something that I wasn't expecting when we started reading. Very intriguing.
Poor Jem, though. Guaranteed that he's going to end up in jail for the murder. I hope his alibi is solid and also that someone saw something and comes forward with fresh information.Like Lori, I am also wondering how Esther is doing. She's watching the Bartons carefully. Perhaps (with luck) she did see something of importance.
It's sad that the poor are automatically assumed guilty of a larger crime after being seen in a fairly small altercation with a rich man. Poor Jem.
I did feel for the Carson family. Any sudden death would be devastating. A murder of a loved one would rip one's foundations out from under one.
Being the only son may put the business in a precarious situation, too, now that there are no heirs.
My appreciation for Gaskell as a writer grows with every chapter. I originally was going to comment on three elements of Gaskell's technique that I am admiring. But chapter 18 dropped before I could post and Claudia has thankfully broached one that I feel is important to heed. Gaskell's choice of perspectives in each scene advancing the telling of this story is worth noting. She often picks some interesting and unique way of introducing the scene and/or adding complications. It has me both engaged in the story and enthralled with the writing. I will try and note some of these perspective choices as we come to them in the next half. Before I quit for now, the other two elements I wanted to address were her use of and attention to details and similarly her use of what I would call "business," a term from theater that is defined as "Physical activity used to show character, fill a pause in dialogue, or establish a scene. " I would add that Gaskell uses it often to fill out a scene, sometimes to embellish it, other times advancing the story, but she is so awfully clever about it, that it is often barely noticeable unless we are looking. I added these last two elements to remind myself to elaborate later in the second half. Again, I must applaud Claudia for her great lead on this book and for everyone else in holding a great discussion . I am enjoying the book and everything so very much!
Petra wrote: "Poor Jem, though. Guaranteed that he's going to end up in jail for the murder. I hope his alibi is solid and also that someone saw something and comes forward with fresh information.Like Lori, I ..."
I agree with you on all points, Petra. It is sad indeed that the poor are automatically assumed guilty and this is why the upcoming investigation may be rushed.
After all, as Lori said, I hardly believe either Jem or anyone we know could be guilty. We see, in the conversation between the three sisters, that Harry had a "rich" and possibly agitated sentimental life. Some other young man may be jealous and there may be some motive behind this (love, lust, lucre and loathing, as AD (PD James' detective) us taught)
Sam wrote: "My appreciation for Gaskell as a writer grows with every chapter. I originally was going to comment on three elements of Gaskell's technique that I am admiring. But chapter 18 dropped before I coul..."Great analysis, Sam! I am looking forward to further comments on Elizabeth Gaskell's technique.
I found your mention on "business" interesting. Indeed these two chapters, 17 and 18, are both introduced with such business elements: Mary, industriously preparing at home for her father's departure to Glasgow in chapter 17. The three Carson sisters, more or less idly sitting in their parlour, discussing Harry while waiting for him.
Indeed both chapters look like scenes from drama.
I was taught at school about unity of time and place in theatre. We do have this here: at Barton's between, say, late afternoon until 9 to 10 pm and at Carson's, shortly before 8 pm until dawn.
Other chapters were very dynamic: Mary going here or there, meeting various persons. There was no unity of place, nor any unity of time as we remember that chapter 3 covered roughly three or four years, while chapter 10 covered an indefinite number of months.
Chapter 16 already covered one day and two meetings. Time seems to have frozen since the beginning of chapter 16 and more significantly in chapters 17 and 18. Focusing on time and details helps create this impression and introduces a taste of suspense.
Here the action is concentrated at one place with characters turning up: Will, John, Job and then Margaret//Police bringing Harry home, a doctor, the superintendant.
Petra wrote "Being the only son may put the business in a precarious situation, too, now that there are no heirs."Exactly: from a very material point of view, Harry was to inherit the company one day and carry forth his father's name. Now it seems to be more complicated at first sight. The Married Woman Property Act was passed only in 1882. Until then, if, for instance, one Carson daughter inherited the firm, it will be her husband's property. The loss of a male heir may indeed put the business Mr Carson has built in a precarious situation.
From a father's and mother's point of view, it was their only son. The loss of an only son is what the Reverend and Mrs Gaskell experienced when little William died. Elizabeth Gaskell knew how hard it is. Mrs Carson's incredulous reaction was perhaps partly mirroring her own reaction.
Last, the cliffhanger at the end of chapter 16, in its biblical tonality, may also remind us in a way of the Only Son, and of those drawing lots on his clothes. Harry is certainly no angel, no white lamb, but his parents, first of all his mother, view him like this. His flaws are erased by this brutal death.
Some things occurred to me. One is that even if Esther happened to be in the area and to have seen something happen to Harry, who in a position of power would believe her. She would have less credibility than the tradesmen themselves. But she might be believed by the tradesmen, especially if Mary testified for her. As for why would the tradesmen have chosen Harry as a target. Well, perhaps because he was so outwardly condescending toward them or possibly to hurt his father as badly as so many of them had been hurt, losing children to disease and malnutrition.
Chapter 18Sam wrote: "My appreciation for Gaskell as a writer grows with every chapter."
I completely agree. The story is much more complicated than I expected after reading the first many chapters. For awhile I thought we were reading a romance novel, in the setting of the social ills in Manchester. With the lottery and now a murder we have a much more serious and nuanced book.
Claudia:I appreciate the pace you have set with a break every third day as I don’t always have a chance to read every day for this group. You’ve provided tremendous background which is extremely helpful in understanding the time and place.
Kathleen wrote: "Claudia:I appreciate the pace you have set with a break every third day as I don’t always have a chance to read every day for this group. You’ve provided tremendous background which is extremely ..."
Thank you Kathleen! I am trying to, but I know that there would be much more to say!
Thanks all for your comments, let's move on to thread two!
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Those who are a few steps behind and wish to comment on earlier chapters may do so here on thread one - taking care of mentioning the relevant chapter number.
@Chapter 16. Things are getting very contentious between the masters and the workers, and the workers are fired up. I think there is a lot of Steinbeck and Dickens in this novel with the angle of the social commentary about the working class and their fight for decent wages, personal necessities to live, etc. I'm also feeling like Gaskell is doing a good job of the revolving subplot threads and balancing out specific episodes, which reminds me of how Dickens can juggle so many different subplots and weave them together.
As I head into chapter 17, I feel like things are at a breaking point...
Franky wrote: "@Chapter 16. Things are getting very contentious between the masters and the workers, and the workers are fired up. I think there is a lot of Steinbeck and Dickens in this novel with the angle of t..."Indeed Franky!
I am seeing your comment a bit late but I agree with you. I have only a very thin experience of Steinbeck but I remember an excerpt from The Grapes of Wrath at school.
The social background as depicted by Mrs Gaskell is a successful job. When I first read Mary Barton I understood more about the plight of cotton mill workers in the 19th century than I did before.
It is perhaps because of Elizabeth Gaskell's own underlying sensitivity when she wrote it but also her skilful depicting through plot and characters the effects of superstructure (to borrow a Marxist notion) and conflicting economic challenges on the proletariat - here even the Lumpenproletariat - ragged battalions (Lumpen means rags) of starving price workers who even cannot afford to buy new clothes.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Grapes of Wrath (other topics)Mary Barton (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Oliver Twist (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
William Shakespeare (other topics)Charles M. Relyea (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Elizabeth Gaskell (other topics)
George Eliot (other topics)
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Thursday afternoon at Barton's.
We learn that the trade unionists met on last Tuesday and that John is to go to Glasgow via Liverpool. The unnamed "gentleman from London" has given them money and John has been given a sovereign for his expenses. He has given his daughter some coins to buy food.
Mary is ironing his shirts when Will Wilson calls to say goodbye. He has received a letter from Jack Harris, a shipmate, informing him that their ship is about to leave Liverpool. Will is going to visit his maternal uncle on the Isle of Man. He is to walk to Liverpool the same day as he cannot afford to take the train. Mary tells him that her father is also going to Liverpool that evening and that they could travel together.
Will tells Mary that he loves Margaret, but that he has not yet dared to tell her, that it would be like "asking an angel from heaven" if he did. He intends to propose when he returns from this voyage, as his captain intends to appoint him second mate. In the meantime, he asks Mary to speak of him to Margaret, in case he “should meet with any mischance". He has bought an accordion as a present for Margaret and asks Mary to give it to her on his behalf.
Mary tells Will that life now is very hard, that if she were a boy she would go to sea with him. Those who cross the threshold always bring sad and unhappy news. She fears that her father will never find work and that the trade will never recover.
Will movingly praises Alice, her courage, her industrious life and selfless attitude, her knowledge and experience of plants and birds, her herbal tea, which is better than all the teas in the world, even better than the Chinese tea Will once drank in China.
John Barton's footsteps can be heard as he arrives, a "haggard and wildly anxious-looking man". Will's gregarious and friendly humour falls dead on John Barton's mood. He shakes Mary's hand and goes out. Will is to sail next Tuesday.
While John Barton refuses to eat his dinner, Job Legh arrives, enthusiastic as ever, and wants to know about John's mission to Glasgow. He is leaving tonight, but he does not say which train. He goes upstairs. "Passionate, violent, restless motions" can be heard from upstairs where he is staying, "stamping and banging about", while Mary tries to keep up appearances and listens to Job, who says that he is "a sleeping member for peace" in the union, where he is "forced to be wise according to their notions".
Meanwhile, John comes down and leaves, barely civil, without dinner, more depressed and desperate than ever. Once outside, however, he retraced his steps and turned to Mary: "God bless you, poor child!"
In the street he heard the cry of a little child who had lost his way. Thinking of his dead little Tom, John led the child home and carried him. The mother is grateful and says an Irish blessing to John, who is touched.
"Let us leave him,says the narrator.
Mary offers her dinner to Job and tries in vain to eat herself. She feels "a leaden weight", "a sort of presentiment of evil".
Margaret, who had visited Alice at the Ancoats to cheer her up after Will's departure, returns home and then to the Bartons', where she finds Job. She is devastated: Alice has had a stroke and one side of her is now paralysed.
This happened after Will left. Jem was not at home and had not yet returned when Margaret left. Margaret has asked Mrs Davenport to go and help Jane Wilson to take care of Alice.
Job Legh and his granddaughter go home.