Far From the Madding Crowd 3rd Thread Chapter 21 - 29

[Werner]

No worries, Kathleen, my PC has operated just fine since the restart!

[Connie]

Hardy sets the scene with sensuous descriptions of nature, and the light of the sunset glinting off the sword. Bathsheba is totally at Troy's mercy--she cannot move in a very Freudian scene. Troy has not actually touched her until the kiss at the end, but the sword has whipped over every part of her body. Is this swordplay or foreplay?

This scene shows Troy as a romantic villain or a "bad boy" that some women fall for. He's very skillful, but he's also very irresponsible. Bathsheba could have moved or he could have misjudged his swordplay with tragic results. Troy is a very smooth character, and Bathsheba has not had experience with that type of man.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

So far the scores are:

Computer becoming sentient and exercising stringent parental control option: 1 (I think this counts as a "spoiled vote"!)

Thomas Hardy deliberately teasing and provoking his readers with deliberate ambiguity: 1
Thomas Hardy skilfully using symbolism to enhance a literal episode: 1

Just joking of course ... all reactions to this shocking chapter are very welcome!😊I personally loved the lyricism of it, and think so much calls out to be quoted.

[Pamela]

What a scene of seduction — even if nothing other than the kiss happened. It does feel very sensual and indeed, as if sexual intercourse happened. And yet, I kept thinking of Fanny and if Troy did the same with her, or was it a simpler capture of her heart.

Hardy definitely used all of his talents in writing something that led us to read all sorts of things into this chapter!

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

I do fear for Fanny, Pam. I know Thomas Hardy added the scene in the church later, but she was so desperate to wed her beau that we surely cannot have seen the last of her.

Bathsheba seemed (and said) she felt an employer's concern for Fanny when she first left, but that seems to have evaporated to nothing.

[Werner]

I'm among those who definitely do not interpret this chapter as presenting a coded depiction of sexual intercourse, for several reasons. First, while Victorian authors did not write explicit descriptions of sex acts, they were not coy about making it clear that sex acts had occurred. (Numerous examples come to mind.) Hardy gives no indication here that his description of events is anything less than straightforward, and it stops well short of suggesting a sex act. Second, I believe it would be out of character for Bathsheba; she's impulsive, but not so much so that she'd impulsively violate an actual ingrained moral standard. (It would also be out of character for an experienced rake like Troy to overplay his hand by trying to initiate sex too quickly.) Third, Hardy tells us twice that between Troy's saying "I must leave you" and his disappearance, only a minute elapsed. That's not enough time for a sex act, no matter how aroused the couple are (and especially not if the female is wearing Victorian woman's garb!). And fourth, the way Hardy emphasizes Bathsheba's strong guilt reaction to the kiss (and is quite clear that it is a kiss that's the stimulus, not something more) highlights a contrast between the intensity of the reaction and the relative slightness of the cause, an artistic move that would be negated if the cause was actual sacrifice of her virginity.

It's not unlikely, though not proven, that Hardy had heard "The Bonny Black Hare" (and/or any of the large number of bawdy folk songs that would have existed in 19th-century Dorset). But the dissimilarities between that song and this chapter are far more marked than the similarities. There's no commonality of language or imagery; the setting of the one is a woods and of the other a hollow in a treeless expanse; the male in one is packing a flintlock musket and in the other a sword. Even the time of year is different (mid-May vs. late June). The only obvious similarity is a man and a woman meeting out of doors (though the circumstances are considerably different). To my mind, nothing here suggests the song as a model for the chapter.

[Lee]

I agree with Werner that the sword display was not a code for actual sexual intercourse. But its symbolism is unmistakable and I do believe it is foreshadowing a sexual interaction that is to perhaps take place in the future.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

Thanks Werner and Lee. I think this is such an interesting chapter, and the theories will doubtless run and run.😊

It would be much easier if it were an 18th century novel, where bawdiness was par for the course, although The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman for instance, can be confoundedly ambiguous. But in the 19th century there were far more allusions, and sometimes even deliberate obfuscation so as not to shock.

As with all the other topics initiated, please do share your thoughts so far at any point, although we do have to stick to our timetable and move on.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

Chapter 29: Particulars of a Twilight Walk

“Bathsheba, though she had too much understanding to be entirely governed by her womanliness, had too much womanliness to use her understanding to the best advantage.”

The narrator tells us that Bathsheba now loved Troy in the way that self-reliant women did when they lost their self-reliance, making them weaker than anyone. Though she was a woman of the world, she still knew little of society or of self-indulgence: her love was like a child’s. But she made no effort to control her own feelings, and was happily unaware of Troy’s own faults, unlike Gabriel’s, whose faults were all on show and easy to see.

Gabriel recognised this love and it pained him. He decided to speak to Bathsheba, hoping to use her treatment of Boldwood as an excuse. He came across her one evening walking through the corn fields. As they talked, he awkwardly brought up Boldwood, so that he could mention the wedding likely to take place between them, so people said. She hotly denied that this was the case. Gabriel said that it was obvious Boldwood had been courting her.

Bathsheba insisted that she must clear up any mistake. She had not promised Boldwood anything: she respected but had never loved him, and as soon as he returned from travelling her answer to him would be no. Abandoning pretence and feeling he must say something, Gabriel said he wished she had never met Sergeant Troy:

“He is not good enough for ’ee.”
Bathsheba stonily defended him, saying that he was educated, well-born, and worthy of a woman: besides, she could not see what this had to do with their conversation. But Gabriel begged her not to trust Troy: he did not like him, and asked her to consider being more cool towards him.

Red and angry, Bathsheba stammered that he had no right to say such things. Troy’s goodness was just hidden—he went in privately by the old tower door at church, she said, so that no one would see him. Gabriel was incredulous, and sad to see how much she trusted Troy. He declared that he knew she was lost to himself, but only begged her to be more discreet towards Troy, and to consider how safe she would be in his hands.

Pale, Bathsheba told him to leave the farm. Gabriel calmly said this was the second time she had pretended to dismiss him. He could not go unless she hired a bailiff. If he left, it would go to ruin, since it would only be led by a woman. He may be interfering, but would remain grimly faithful. Privately, Bathsheba was grateful for this, and she asked for him to leave her alone, but as a woman, not a mistress. He stood still and allowed her to get ahead of him, but then saw a figure rise in the distance—Troy’s. Gabriel turned back and went home by the churchyard. He climbed to the tower door, and found a strand of ivy growing across it. It was clear that it had not been used in a long time.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

So far we have seen Bathsheba being independent and self-sufficient, but here she seems to be deceiving herself. While Gabriel isn’t portrayed as perfect either, Hardy is showing his straightforward honesty to be better than Troy’s duplicitous nature.

Gabriel has kept quiet while watching Bathsheba make what he believes are moral errors, but now he believes that she’s gone too far. He is willing to risk breaching the social gulf that has cropped up between him and Bathsheba, although it must be because he still has feelings for her.

This scene between Bathsheba and Gabriel is notably similar to another scene between them, when Bathsheba had asked Gabriel for his opinion regarding Boldwood and she had flared up at him. Now, once again, Bathsheba changes in a flash from friend to mistress and back again, depending on whether or not Gabriel says something she wants to hear. At one level, then, Bathsheba seems to understand that she may be making a mistake with Troy; yet she insists on painting him as a grand, even noble figure, creating her own reality so that she can best defend her own actions.

Yet again, Gabriel angers Bathsheba so much that she acts on her position of authority over him in order to banish him. But this time Gabriel holds his own. In one way this is a blatant disruption of authority, and one that suggests that Gabriel, too, is sceptical of a woman’s role in charge of a farm; but the novel also portrays his declaration as a noble sign of faithfulness to Bathsheba.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

And a little more …

the “lymph” on Cupid’s arrow is not the lymph we know but a mythical fluid supposed to spread through the body of whoever is hit by the arrow, to produce symptoms of love.

The “tything” – An old governmental organisation whereby in England 10 householders were responsible for everyone’s conduct.

“reck’d not her own rede” – did not take her own advice (archaic). The whole speech alludes to Ophelia’s speech to Laertes in Hamlet Act I Sc. 3: 46-51

“the ruck o’ soldiers” - the majority/general run of soldiers (dialect)

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

This is the end of installment 6, and we are now half way through the novel! So in honour of changing the baton, we will now have two days free and return on Monday in a new thread, with chapter 30 and installment 7 LINK HERE.

From now on, Bridget will lead, (YAY!) and take us through the increasingly exciting drama of the second half, to the end.

I look forward to a few more voices commenting on what we have read so far, and thank everyone who has already made this such an interesting first half. 😊

[Kathleen]

Thank you so much, Jean, for leading us through this first half. I'd never have made it without your knowledge and insights! And I look forward to all I know Bridget will bring. Thank you both!

I am wondering about this phrase "Bathsheba loved Troy in the way that only self-reliant women love when they abandon their self-reliance." What way is that? Stronger? Stupider? :-) I like Jean's interpretation that this makes her even weaker than anyone, but I don't know if I buy Hardy's premise. Are they weaker, or do they just seem weaker because it's not like them? Not sure why I'm obsessing over this--guess I'm trying to figure out what he's getting at.

[Pamela]

Thank you so much, Jean, for your masterful leadership in covering this book. I've truly learned so much more through the details you have brought to light.

I feel very much as you do, Kathleen, about this chapter. Readingit, I felt as if Hardy has gotten a "bee in his bonnet" about women in general. He presents Bathsheba as a weak woman in mind and heart, and has done so throughout the book but not with such force as in this chapter.

I didn't like the beginning of this chapter and felt strongly that Hardy's whole tone had changed. Instead of showing the story, he was editorializing. He does sound almost as though he hates Bathsheba, and he created her!

And we as readers have to remember that while we can see the machinations of Sgt. Troy, we and Hardy are a step removed. Indeed, as the author of this story, Hardy knows where he wants her to go. She is a rural gal and despite being in charge of a farm — a situation that can be seen as coming more naturally to her — she is still an innocent when it comes to having to deal with all the swashbuckling antics of a soldier.

And Gabriel can see that Troy has already gotten deeply into Bathsheba's heart. I don't know who would have a chance to show her the way at this point.

[Lee]

Thank you, Jean! Great work as always, and we all benefit.

[Connie]

Thank you for all your insights, Jean, in taking us through the first half of the book.

[Erich C]

I appreciated the point in the previous chapter that Troy is described as an object or a color rather than in a specific way. In that chapter, Bathsheba sees "a dim spot of artificial red." We've discussed the artifice in his seduction of Bathsheba and also how his gold watch contrasts with Gabriel's connection to nature's time. The red of his uniform contrasts with the green of the bower as well.

When Bathsheba first sees Troy during the haymaking (end of Ch 25), he is also described as "a bright scarlet spot." In today's chapter, he is simply "A figure" and "The shape" and he "rose from the earth."

[Bridget, Moderator]

Kathleen wrote: "I am wondering about this phrase "Bathsheba loved Troy in the way that only self-reliant women love when they abandon their self-reliance." What way is that? Stronger? Stupider?..."

I stumbled over that sentence too, Kathleen. I'm not sure I have a good answer to what it means either, but what I finally settled on was thinking that once Bathsheba gives up her self-reliance to Troy, she's an empty vessel. Which makes it easier for Troy to pour into her any thoughts he wants. A woman without self-reliance, would be able to hang onto her values and virtues because they wouldn't prohibit her (necessarily) from falling in love.

I think Hardy is implying that a woman in love (or married) becomes subservient to her lover/husband. Which is not something self-reliance allows. It's hard for my modern brain to agree with Hardy on this point. But likely a Victorian audience would have agreed easily.

[Bridget, Moderator]

Regarding Chapter 28 (The Hollows amid the Ferns), I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thought Troy's "sword" was symbolic of something else!

When Troy kills the caterpillar that landed on Bathsheba's bodice, that felt symbolic and foreboding to me. Caterpillars being worm like creatures that of course transform into beautiful butterflies, and Troy putting an end to all that transformation and beauty with a flick of his sword. Might the same be in store for Bathsheba?

[Greg]

It took me a long time to catch up to the group because of my trip and visitors, and it's a pity that I only caught up at the end of your part Jean!

For my part, I don't dislike Bathsheba. Like Bridget, despite being frustrated with her, I do feel for her position. It's clear that nothing is set up for her - everyone expects her to have a bailiff to run things, but she doesn't want that sort of paternalistic care. She's the only woman at the corn market; it takes daring to go her own way like that. Yet, . . .

As everyone has said, Bathsheba is so ambivalent on every topic. Way back in chapter 4 when she talked about marriage, it was hilarious when she said, "Well, what I mean is that I shouldn't mind being a bride at a wedding, if I could be one without having a husband." It's almost a sort of thing you'd expect from an Oscar Wilde character. But then, she follows that up with the disturbingly old-fashioned view, "I want someone to tame me." That second statement strikes me as a bit chilling, especially when I put the character of Sergeant Troy in mind.

Kathleen and Bridget, about that phrase, "Bathsheba loved Troy in the way that only self-reliant women love when they abandon their self-reliance,": Perhaps if Bathsheba considered herself incompetent, she would surround herself with more supports and she would seek second opinions? But because she considers herself competent, she feels confident to go her own way, such as with her refusal to hire a bailiff. That confidence is a good thing in many cases, but maybe in cases of inadvisable romantic entanglements where personal judgement becomes faulty, that accustomed confidence might make her more vulnerable somehow? I think about my work for example. Sometimes the smartest people at my job make the most colossal mistakes because they are so confident in their own capabilities that they don't their review changes with anyone else before submitting them. A person who knows they might make mistakes will take steps to try to prevent problems, like reviewing their changes with colleagues. Maybe that's the sort of thing Hardy means? Bathsheba is used to relying on her own capabilities, and in this specific situation, she's a bit out of her depth. Later in that paragraph, Hardy writes, "She has never had practice in making the best of such a condition." I guess Hardy is implying that a less self-reliant woman would have more supports in place to prevent a rogue like Sergeant Troy from having his way? A lot of Hardy's authorial commentary is definitely a bit off-putting, when looked at from a modern angle. And that paragraph you're citing strikes me as paternalistic as a whole.

Despite that, I'm loving the book, even if I don't like it quite as much as Tess of the D’Urbervilles.

[Kathleen]

Bridget wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "I am wondering about this phrase "Bathsheba loved Troy in the way that only self-reliant women love when they abandon their self-reliance." What way is that? Stronger? Stupider?......"

Both of your points here are great and helpful. Yes, I can see that self-reliance is Bathsheba’s thing, when she gives it up there is nothing there, and in Hardy’s mind (understandably for the time), a self-reliant woman does not make for an ideal wife. Thank you, Bridget!

[Kathleen]

Greg wrote: "It took me a long time to catch up to the group because of my trip and visitors, and it's a pity that I only caught up at the end of your part Jean!

For my part, I don't dislike Bathsheba. Like B..."

So good to see you, Greg! I too like Bathsheba’s daring. And that’s a fascinating idea about her confidence making her more vulnerable. Your work examples are convincing, and make me think of a few of my own. I hadn't thought of what you say, that "a less self-reliant woman would have more supports in place." I think my own lack of confidence gave me a blind spot!

And this point about her experience and personality is a great thing to keep in mind as we go on in the story. Thanks!

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

First of all, thanks Kathleen, Pamela, Lee and Connie for your extremely kind comments; it is a pleasure 😊

Greg - I am delighted that you have managed to join us! I had thought that perhaps after all your travel and work etc., you found you were not able to after all, but it really is never too late!

I do like everyone's further thoughts about Bathsheba. To me the first two paragraphs of this chapter (29) are one of the least successful parts of the book, not because I didn't agree with what the author is saying, (we do not expect to, with many classic books) but because Thomas Hardy is obfuscating and almost musing aloud. Perhaps he knew his own reasoning, but he certainly does not present his thoughts in a clear way. Several sound like syllogisms ... but are not. 😟 Well done all, for trying to clarify this part. His later novels have much less of this unexpressed reasoning.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

Erich - I particularly like your further examples about the impressionistic descriptions of Troy.

Bridget - "Caterpillars ... transform into beautiful butterflies, and Troy put ... an end to all that transformation and beauty with a flick of his sword."

I love this! It's a wonderful doom-laden image provided by Thomas Hardy and the sort of thing which makes up for the muddy waters of his interjected "instructions for the reader". 🙄Thank you so much for pinpointing it for us.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

Far From the Madding Crowd feels so much like a novel of two parts to me. When writing it, Thomas Hardy said to Leslie Stephen that he was sure there would be errors of construction, and was not really thinking about writing a novel, but just wanted to be "a good hand at a serial".

I think we'll find we could not ask for more tension, excitement, cliff-hangers and sheer drama from now on! I'm really looking forward to discovering the second half anew with you all! 😊

Happily handing over to Bridget for tomorrow (Monday).

[Ann]

Bridget wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "I am wondering about this phrase "Bathsheba loved Troy in the way that only self-reliant women love when they abandon their self-reliance." What way is that? Stronger? Stupider?......"

Bathsheba is young, immature, and has never been in love. Young women sometimes make mistakes about their initial attachments. I am reminded of Dorothea Brooke in Middlemarch and her epic mistake in her projecting misplaced greatness on Reverand Casaubon.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

Interesting thought Ann, since Thomas Hardy's novels are considered more similar to George Eliot's than to anyone else's. And the first installment (i.e. 5 chapters) of Far From the Madding Crowd was announced by "The Spectator" to be definitely by her!

[Bridget, Moderator]

Greg wrote: "It took me a long time to catch up to the group because of my trip and visitors, and it's a pity that I only caught up at the end of your part Jean!

For my part, I don't dislike Bathsheba. Like B..."

Greg, its great to see you joining us! Like Kathleen, I really enjoyed your interpretation of self-reliant people not having support people around them. That rings very true in my life too!

[Lori]

Chapter 26, Scene on the Verge of the Hay-Mead

Jean: I very much liked your idea of “men’s wiles”!

I am really enjoying all the comments, everyone has so much insight!
I’m probably the odd one out here, but the exchange between Bathsheba and Troy actually made my thoughts turn to Fanny Robin.
Poor thing! As a servant girl she would have had no defense for Troy’s seductive manner. I find myself pitying her more than ever.
Another thought,(I apologize if I missed this in previous posts) I had was Fanny’s last name of Robin. Here in central Ohio, robins are industrious birds in the spring and quite eager to prepare their nests. Upon reflection there is almost a desperate feel to Fanny’s desire to be married to Troy but I agree with Jean, she has been abandoned by him. I’m hoping Bathsheba doesn’t suffer a similar fate if Troy becomes bored with her as a plaything. Fanny was surely blindsided by Troy’s behavior.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

Oh yes, "nesting" is a good thought Lori! Fanny Robin has a name from Nature, like most of the country folk but you have found an extra depth 😊

[Lori]

Chapter 28, The Hollow Amid The Ferns

Jean: You’ve certainly given me much to think about. My goodness! I’m sure I would never have thought that something physical had actually taken place.
At present, I still agree with Werner.

My thoughts were that Troy has been testing Bathsheba all along to see whether she is a pushover or not. I marked this quote:
“Now just to learn whether you have pluck enough to let me do what I wish, I’ll give you a preliminary test.”
I read a lot more into his statement than just taking it at face value. What I mean to say is this sword demonstration is the test, a way for him to gauge her new boundaries. As has already been mentioned, Troy is very skilled at the art of seduction. I think he’s been enjoying the thrill of adventure with Bathsheba being more of a challenge than an ordinary servant girl.
At any rate Troy has successfully bent her to his will here. He has lured Bathsheba into this very intimate place without Liddy as a chaperone. I took this entire episode as a way for the reader to be left in no doubt as to what Troy has in mind.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

It's so good to hear your views, Lori. 😊

[Lori]

Jean: I want to send a word of thanks here at the halfway point of the book for leading us in conversation and sharing so much insight. I really appreciate all that you do, you really are an amazing person.

Chapter 29: My thoughts at this point mainly centered on how fortunate Bathsheba is to have won the heart of such a loyal man as Gabriel.

I had unexpected company over the weekend and of course that interrupted my reading but I’m going to keep chugging along.

[Werner]

lori wrote: "Jean: I want to send a word of thanks here at the halfway point of the book for leading us in conversation and sharing so much insight. I really appreciate all that you do, you really are an amazing person."

Lori, I believe you speak for all of us!

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

Aw thank you so much Lori (and Werner)! And I heartily agree about Gabriel Oak 😊

I'm so pleased that you are catching us up, as the second half of this book is a real thrill!

[Brian]

Hardy deftly compares Oak to Troy: "... Troy's deformities lay deep down from a woman's vision, whilst his embellishments were upon the very surface; thus contrasting with homely Oak, whose defects were patent to the blindest, and whose virtues were as metals in a mine."

At some point pretty early on, Gabriel becomes something of a moral compass for Bathsheba.

[Bionic Jean, Moderator]

I really like that comparison of Troy and Gabriel Oak too; thanks for the reminder Brian!

[Brian]

:)