Ersatz TLS discussion
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Weekly TLS
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What are we reading? 25/03/2024
Russell wrote: "I’ve read it in English. After failing to get far in the original I started again with the Scott-Moncrieff translation (which I found perfectly wonderful, though much critiqued since)."It seems that you at least had some French language instruction or experience under your belt before starting it, and have been to France.
How much were you conversant with French culture and history (particularly that of the period covered by Proust) before starting on your reading the first time?
The few excerpts I've read of the Scott Moncrieff seemed pretty Henry James-ish to me, which helped to discourage me from undertaking a reading. I was surprised on reading the NYRB review that he did not live to finish his translation, as I never see any other name mentioned in relation to that version.
Bill wrote: "Russell wrote: "I’ve read it in English. After failing to get far in the original I started again with the Scott-Moncrieff translation (which I found perfectly wonderful, though much critiqued sinc..."i think there are a few new translations in the mix now, kudos to you Russell for having an elephantine 50 yo memory!
I have a Poe quote for you on music Bill, from an old copy of his i found dogsitting at my parents place. its mostly stories but with about 150 pages of his journalism too:
" music when combined with a pleasurable idea, is poetry, music without the idea is simply music , the idea without the music is prose from its very definitiveness"
he has led me to explore the writing of Augustus Longstreet, just ordered a short Cornell UNi Press version of Longstreets prose.
Bill wrote: "...It seems that you at least had some French language instruction or experience under your belt before starting it, and have been to France.
How much were you conversant with French culture and history (particularly that of the period covered by Proust) before starting on your reading the first time?..."
I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French. The French was a mixture of language and literature (Racine, Molière, Constant, all brilliant; Daudet very apposite with memorable stories of the Franco-Prussian War; and the ghastly Duhamel). The History was English 1714-1939 and European 1715-1939, with France central to the latter, so I knew all about, e.g. Napoleon III, the F-P War, the Commune, the Third Republic, the Dreyfus Affair, and French politics leading up to WWI and the War itself).
I also visited France every year from age 14 onwards, including two French exchanges with families in and around Paris, and I had a major Francophile for a father, and a fashion-lecturer mother very much orientated to French fashion houses. As a student I must have watched a ton of French movies.
Even so my French wasn’t good enough to understand Proust in the original. While I could read the words, I was conscious I was missing most of the meaning and the nuances, which after all is the point.
I believe that native French speakers find Scott-Moncrieff rather flowery compared with the original, maybe even Jamesian. But as things stand I’m in no position to judge.
The last volume of the S-M version was translated by Andreas Mayor, whose name you ought to see if you are looking at the classic Chatto edition (the only one you could get in the UK 50 years ago). I understood later that AM’s work was thought unsatisfactory (though I never found it so myself), and this led to e.g. the Kilmartin re-translation of the 1980s, which I also have but don’t very much like, what I’ve read of it, as it seems to me to be deliberately anti-floriate, to coin an exoression, and so lacking the full expression I was used to.
As a rule I never bother with introductions myself, just go to the text, but if you’re undecided on whether to give Proust a try, you might appreciate the colour and intensity of the Czapski, all done from memory in a WWII prison camp.
How much were you conversant with French culture and history (particularly that of the period covered by Proust) before starting on your reading the first time?..."
I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French. The French was a mixture of language and literature (Racine, Molière, Constant, all brilliant; Daudet very apposite with memorable stories of the Franco-Prussian War; and the ghastly Duhamel). The History was English 1714-1939 and European 1715-1939, with France central to the latter, so I knew all about, e.g. Napoleon III, the F-P War, the Commune, the Third Republic, the Dreyfus Affair, and French politics leading up to WWI and the War itself).
I also visited France every year from age 14 onwards, including two French exchanges with families in and around Paris, and I had a major Francophile for a father, and a fashion-lecturer mother very much orientated to French fashion houses. As a student I must have watched a ton of French movies.
Even so my French wasn’t good enough to understand Proust in the original. While I could read the words, I was conscious I was missing most of the meaning and the nuances, which after all is the point.
I believe that native French speakers find Scott-Moncrieff rather flowery compared with the original, maybe even Jamesian. But as things stand I’m in no position to judge.
The last volume of the S-M version was translated by Andreas Mayor, whose name you ought to see if you are looking at the classic Chatto edition (the only one you could get in the UK 50 years ago). I understood later that AM’s work was thought unsatisfactory (though I never found it so myself), and this led to e.g. the Kilmartin re-translation of the 1980s, which I also have but don’t very much like, what I’ve read of it, as it seems to me to be deliberately anti-floriate, to coin an exoression, and so lacking the full expression I was used to.
As a rule I never bother with introductions myself, just go to the text, but if you’re undecided on whether to give Proust a try, you might appreciate the colour and intensity of the Czapski, all done from memory in a WWII prison camp.
Russell wrote: "Bill wrote: "...It seems that you at least had some French language instruction or experience under your belt before starting it, and have been to France.How much were you conversant with French ..."
you're from UK originally arent you Russell? trying to remember, i think we had a where we were when JFK was shot(which excludes me, too young)) and you were in UK? or was that robert?
AB76 wrote: "you're from UK originally arent you Russell? trying to remember, i think we had a where we were when JFK was shot(which excludes me, too young)) and you were in UK? or was that robert?"
That was me, sitting doing my maths homework and listening to Radio Luxembourg.
That was me, sitting doing my maths homework and listening to Radio Luxembourg.
Russell wrote: "I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French."Wow. To the extent any Anglophone can be, your life seems to have engineered, if not predestined you to be a reader of Proust.
AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Finished The Last Days of the Spanish Republic 
, while it was brilliant in detail over a small ..."The 1930s Japanese army dabbles in terrorism.
Bill wrote: "Russell wrote: "I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French...."
Wow. To the extent any Anglophone can be, your life seems to have engineered, if not predestined you to be a reader of Proust."
Well, I call myself very fortunate. Also, having a book in view is one thing, getting the impetus to read it is another. I had two friends who raved about it, one a close friend in college, the other a fellow volunteer on a remote kibbutz who was French and who in our time off would pore over his copy of the first volume and every now and then throw it down and shout at the top of his voice, “Qu’il est fantastique!” That beaten up copy he handed to me as a parting gift, and I still have it.
One more piece of encouragement - which AB’s musical quote from Poe reminds me of. There are famous passages in Proust which you will surely know of – the dipping of the madeleine into the tisane; the patch of yellow in Vermeer’s View of Delft, maybe the paving stone that rocks underfoot. There are also some passages which are the most exquisite descriptions of music, and the narrator’s passionate response to it, that I have ever, ever read. The pieces are a violin sonata and a septet, broadly identifiable, most agree, with pieces by Saint-Saëns and Franck, but whether they are or not hardly matters, as the composer Vinteuil is imagined, and what Proust is interested in is the process of creation itself. Pls don’t be tempted to find the relevant excerpts! It is the context that makes them fabulous.
Wow. To the extent any Anglophone can be, your life seems to have engineered, if not predestined you to be a reader of Proust."
Well, I call myself very fortunate. Also, having a book in view is one thing, getting the impetus to read it is another. I had two friends who raved about it, one a close friend in college, the other a fellow volunteer on a remote kibbutz who was French and who in our time off would pore over his copy of the first volume and every now and then throw it down and shout at the top of his voice, “Qu’il est fantastique!” That beaten up copy he handed to me as a parting gift, and I still have it.
One more piece of encouragement - which AB’s musical quote from Poe reminds me of. There are famous passages in Proust which you will surely know of – the dipping of the madeleine into the tisane; the patch of yellow in Vermeer’s View of Delft, maybe the paving stone that rocks underfoot. There are also some passages which are the most exquisite descriptions of music, and the narrator’s passionate response to it, that I have ever, ever read. The pieces are a violin sonata and a septet, broadly identifiable, most agree, with pieces by Saint-Saëns and Franck, but whether they are or not hardly matters, as the composer Vinteuil is imagined, and what Proust is interested in is the process of creation itself. Pls don’t be tempted to find the relevant excerpts! It is the context that makes them fabulous.
Russell wrote: "AB76 wrote: "you're from UK originally arent you Russell? trying to remember, i think we had a where we were when JFK was shot(which excludes me, too young)) and you were in UK? or was that robert?..."thanks russ....my memory is getting wobbly on who's who!
Russell wrote: "Bill wrote: "Russell wrote: "I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French...."Wow. To the extent any Anglopho..."
i think i must read the first Proust volume this year, these comments and discussions are stimulating my interest, which Ersatz TLS excels in. I did google the church in the first book after my uncle discussed Proust with me (in his last year as he battled terminal cancer in 2020, Proust was the book he was reading)
Russell wrote α I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French.My first reaction was to think ‘Oh dear, poor you’ missing so much but thinking about it maybe you mean the time in sixth form (16-18)- the 15 reference threw me! Three subjects is the norm.
Not a fan of Sunak but do believe he is right in wishing pupils to study math until 18.
Yes I know that not popular, certainly not enough teachers. A poor maths teacher does pupils a disservice. It’s not a popular subject, so many get scared of the subject when young and don’t get over that fear.
Yes it’s an ideal scenario but with this technological age the importance grows every year.
Most go on reading and improving language skills throughout lives but not in math only at a very basic level about end of primary school level. Such a proud boast not to be good at math…
Sorry rant over
CCCubbon wrote: "Russell wrote α I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French.
My first reaction was to think ‘Oh dear, poor you..."
CC – It’s true that maths can be abandoned by most people too early. But no need to feel badly in my case. I loved it and explored every corner (and did well in the old O Level). I continue to do mental arithmetic in every situation rather than use a calculator. Not long ago you recommended Mathematician’s Delight, which I found engrossing.
American colleges, on the other hand, seem to me to go too far the other way, by requiring (everywhere? I’m not sure) a math component in the four-year undergraduate degree, when by that stage you ought to be concentrating on your major.
The reference to 15 to 17 arose because our school, a local grammar with excellent teaching staff, pushed us to do O Levels a year early, which meant we started on our A Levels a year early.
I’ve remembered that during those two years I also did a Latin O Level, which I loved as well and was quite good at – thought the standard translation we were given for The Aeneid Book VIII was terrible and felt confident enough to do my own. That Latin is still useful today.
My first reaction was to think ‘Oh dear, poor you..."
CC – It’s true that maths can be abandoned by most people too early. But no need to feel badly in my case. I loved it and explored every corner (and did well in the old O Level). I continue to do mental arithmetic in every situation rather than use a calculator. Not long ago you recommended Mathematician’s Delight, which I found engrossing.
American colleges, on the other hand, seem to me to go too far the other way, by requiring (everywhere? I’m not sure) a math component in the four-year undergraduate degree, when by that stage you ought to be concentrating on your major.
The reference to 15 to 17 arose because our school, a local grammar with excellent teaching staff, pushed us to do O Levels a year early, which meant we started on our A Levels a year early.
I’ve remembered that during those two years I also did a Latin O Level, which I loved as well and was quite good at – thought the standard translation we were given for The Aeneid Book VIII was terrible and felt confident enough to do my own. That Latin is still useful today.
AB76 wrote: "I have a Poe quote for you on music Bill, from an old copy of his i found dogsitting at my parents place. its mostly stories but with about 150 pages of his journalism too:" music when combined with a pleasurable idea, is poetry, music without the idea is simply music , the idea without the music is prose from its very definitiveness"
he has led me to explore the writing of Augustus Longstreet, just ordered a short Cornell UNi Press version of Longstreets prose"
I have a copy of the LOA edition of Poe's essays and criticism. Is the music quote from his writing about Longstreet?
I have no idea what Poe's musical experience would have been, beyond his probable exposure to folk music and popular dances and songs. Or whether his phrase "a pleasurable idea" is simply a way of saying "a nice melody", though his suggestion that the "idea" can be expressed in prose indicates something beyond that.
The concept of "musical ideas" has been a thorny one throughout the history of music criticism.
Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I have a Poe quote for you on music Bill, from an old copy of his i found dogsitting at my parents place. its mostly stories but with about 150 pages of his journalism too:" music wh..."
the quote comes from "letter to b", a revised update of a preface to a collection of poems in 1831, that was published in the southern literary messenger in 1836
i picked the book off my parents shelves as i was looking for something to read when dogsitting in Feb but ended up being more interested in the small selection of non-fiction included, so borrowed it and am reading the 150 pages with interest. Bit of a bonus really, the joy of bookshelves...
Russell wrote: "I’ve remembered that during those two years I also did a Latin O Level, which I loved as well and was quite good at – thought the standard translation we were given for The Aeneid Book VIII was terrible and felt confident enough to do my own. That Latin is still useful today."Oh Russell, a man after my own heart. Latin, my best result at O level and, as you say, still useful today. I think it is a great basis for learning other languages.
Having read the first book in this serieshttps://www.fantasticfiction.com/w/ju...
I was interested to watch the adaption of the first book on TV last night. I wasn't madly impressed but will persevere with another episode to see if it improves.
Russell wrote: "the composer Vinteuil is imagined"I first encountered the name when I heard a composition by American composer Joseph Fennimore, “Quartet (After Vinteuil) for Clarinet, Viola, Violoncello and Piano”.
I’ve recently seen several recordings programmed around Proust; in addition to Saint-Saëns and Franck, Hahn and Fauré are often included.
Did you see the Schlöndorff film Swann in Love? I don’t remember the film at all well, but do recall thinking that the music of Hans Werner Henze was a very inappropriate choice to represent a piano sonata from the time and place of the film's setting, supposed to be by Vinteuil.
Another Proust-related film by a German director, Céleste , features a performance of the Franck String Quartet supervised by Proust, where he rearranges it into non-chronological sections, which someone told me is the way his novel unfolds.
Bill wrote: "Russell wrote: "the composer Vinteuil is imagined"
I first encountered the name when I heard a composition by American composer Joseph Fennimore..."
I did see the movie Swann in Love, and enjoyed it (which I believe I was not supposed to, as it was derided by austere Proustians), especially the sumptuousness of the scene-setting. I don’t recall how the music was treated, to tell the truth. My attention may have been concentrated on Ornella Muti.
I don’t know Céleste the movie, as distinct from the very readable book by Céleste Albaret. I would say the only major thing non-chronological about the novel is that the second half of the opening volume steps a generation back and the whole of the closing volume steps a generation forward. Does this mean the second movement of the quartet was played first, I wonder?
I first encountered the name when I heard a composition by American composer Joseph Fennimore..."
I did see the movie Swann in Love, and enjoyed it (which I believe I was not supposed to, as it was derided by austere Proustians), especially the sumptuousness of the scene-setting. I don’t recall how the music was treated, to tell the truth. My attention may have been concentrated on Ornella Muti.
I don’t know Céleste the movie, as distinct from the very readable book by Céleste Albaret. I would say the only major thing non-chronological about the novel is that the second half of the opening volume steps a generation back and the whole of the closing volume steps a generation forward. Does this mean the second movement of the quartet was played first, I wonder?
Russell wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "Russell wrote α I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French.My first reaction was to think ‘..."
I’d forgotten the book for the moment.
I had to leave school at fifteen butthe school arranged for me to goback to sit O levels so I had to do everything the hard way. I used to envy those who had a more conventional learning experience but I have dabbled in many disciplines throughout my life maybe because of that.
My mother said it wasn’t worth educating a girl.
CCCubbon wrote: "... I had to leave school at fifteen...My mother said it wasn’t worth educating a girl."
Looking back I think my generation in the UK got the jam in the sandwich – weren’t affected by the war and shortages like those before us, and weren’t subject to fees and cutbacks like those after us. Not that we were grateful for getting everything free from a functioning welfare state – we conceived ourselves oppressed by society, and entitled to complain and rebel.
My mother was strongly committed to getting girls qualifications and careers. Her own experience in her teens (in the 1930s) was awful – described by the theatre critic in her local paper as "a young actress of quite exceptional promise," she got a place at RADA, but her father refused to seek financial assistance from the local authority, who would have paid, because it meant disclosing his reduced income (while the family got the money together to send her brother to university). So she went to work as a clerk.
Looking back I think my generation in the UK got the jam in the sandwich – weren’t affected by the war and shortages like those before us, and weren’t subject to fees and cutbacks like those after us. Not that we were grateful for getting everything free from a functioning welfare state – we conceived ourselves oppressed by society, and entitled to complain and rebel.
My mother was strongly committed to getting girls qualifications and careers. Her own experience in her teens (in the 1930s) was awful – described by the theatre critic in her local paper as "a young actress of quite exceptional promise," she got a place at RADA, but her father refused to seek financial assistance from the local authority, who would have paid, because it meant disclosing his reduced income (while the family got the money together to send her brother to university). So she went to work as a clerk.
CCCubbon wrote: "Russell wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "Russell wrote α I suppose quite a lot for a non-French person. From age 15 to 17 I did just three subjects in school – English, History and French.My first reactio..."
gosh CCC, that quote from your mum, wow!
in my family, my grandmother in the 1930s had a similar experience, her father didnt want her to study science as it wasnt for "girls". But she stuck at her studies and did chemistry at university, where she met my Grandfather in 1935. But though she graduated, she was 2 years behind him, despite same age due to delays with her fathers stance on studying science a levels
My granddmother died when i was only 3, so i barely remember her, she was fluent in italian and i think french too. In retirement my grandparents travelled all over europe and the world, he, like her , was a scientist but a voracious reader of litterature, a member of the Hardy Society and a lover of Fox Terriers. Thankfully i was in my 30s when he died and spent lots of quality time with him
Russell wrote: "Does this mean the second movement of the quartet was played first, I wonder?"My recollection of the film is that only pieces of movements of the Quartet were played.
As I recall the scene, Proust hires a quartet to come and play for him in a private concert, with only him and Céleste as audience.
The quartet has brought the Franck quartet to play, but rather than playing anything straight through, Proust directs them in fragments of the piece, such as "Play the middle section of the Larghetto", "Now play the close of the first movement exposition," and so on.
AB76 wrote: "the quote comes from "letter to b", a revised update of a preface to a collection of poems in 1831, that was published in the southern literary messenger in 1836"That's the first essay in the LOA collection. Reading the quote in context, I believe that, by "music", Poe means the musical elements of poetry - sound and rhythm - and not music as such.
A poem, in my opinion, is opposed to a work of science by having, for its immediate object, pleasure, not truth; to romance, by having for its object an indefinite instead of a definite pleasure, being a poem only so far as this object is attained; romance presenting perceptible images with definite, poetry with indefinite sensations, to which end music is an essential, since the comprehension of sweet sound is our most indefinite conception. Music, when combined with a pleasurable idea, is poetry; music without the idea is simply music; the idea without the music is prose from its very definitiveness.Poe would seem to consider something that is "simply music" as inferior to poetry. (Compare Hoffmann in Beethoven's Instrumental Music: "The ever-increasing magic power of music rends asunder the bonds of the other arts. ")
What was meant by the invective against him who had no music in his soul?
Here's the entire Poe essay for those interested:
https://www.eapoe.org/works/essays/bl...
scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "Given that Stalin made his deal with Hitler shortly after the Spanish Civil War wound up, Stalin himself may have written the Communist contingent off as premature...."This makes z..."
PM was 1940s New York's Popular Front paper. This supports the theory that the buzz phrase came from the left.
Russell, ABThese attitudes were common still in the fifties. I was offered a uni place at 18 by a well known firm with funding but I needed written permission from my mother who refused point blank - the maturity age was 21 then so I could not go.
Started again in my 20s after having my children as an unqualified teacher.
Bill wrote: "This got me to wondering how many readers here have read Proust..."I have only read a very short extract - Swann in Love - many years ago, and before I went to live in France for several years. At that time, my French would have been far too poor to read it in the original.
I enjoyed that book, but somehow haven't - yet - been moved to read more Proust, though the thought does tempt me a little. I suppose there are other French authors I'd rather read first, and as it's more of an effort to read in French than in English it hasn't happened to date.
Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the quote comes from "letter to b", a revised update of a preface to a collection of poems in 1831, that was published in the southern literary messenger in 1836"That's the first ess..."
does the LOA include all his non-fiction then?
Russell wrote: "I also have the Pléiade edition, but that has a vast quantity of notes and variations, so you often get just three lines of text on a page, and everything else is footnotes, a ludicrous and distracting way to present a magnum opus of the human spirit. So I’m assembling copies of the Folio Classique, which has selected notes in the back if you want to look at them."That's worth knowing - thanks.
If I was to write notes on Désérable's books, then they'd end up looking like the Pléiade edition - they are that dense!
CCCubbon wrote: "Russell, ABThese attitudes were common still in the fifties. I was offered a uni place at 18 by a well known firm with funding but I needed written permission from my mother who refused point blan..."
very interesting. my mother was a speech therapist, graduated in 1967 but she tells me that it was common knowledge that men doing the same role in her first job, were paid more than her, despite the same qualifications. shocking and thats 31 years after my grandmother
Mod
Bad RelationsI greatly enjoyed Cressida Connolly's After the Party and liked this one a lot, too.
Family history ... we begin with William Gale in the Crimean War where he was one of the first to be awarded a Victoria Cross. We then follow his descendants — and the medal — to 1977 and finally 2015-16.
Well-written, absorbing, not a long book — an Observer reviewer wrote "I don't often wish a book were longer, but this one I did", and so did I.
Russell wrote: "The reference to 15 to 17 arose because our school, a local grammar with excellent teaching staff, pushed us to do O Levels a year early, which meant we started on our A Levels a year early..."I did 'A' levels from 15-17 as well, though because I got into primary school a 'year' early (a matter of a couple of months in reality). Plus, since stronger pupils were encouraged to tackle a couple of 'O' levels early, I did Maths and Welsh language at 14...
Mod
stronger pupils were encouraged to tackle a couple of 'O' levels early"
I did A Levels at 16-18. We could do up to 4 O Levels a year early. I did English Language, Latin and Physics with Chemistry. The other possibility was Maths, but I was in the 2nd stream for that so didn't get put forward for it — which is a bit ironic, because although not great at maths, I think I was definitely better there than at physics and chemistry.
I agree with Russell when he says "I think my generation in the UK got the jam in the sandwich".
As far as attitudes are concerned, by the second half of the sixties, things were changing, but although my father was pro my going to university, and my mother never said as much (to me anyway), I think she probably shared her own mother's view that it was a waste of time. I had a cousin of exactly the same age with whom my grandmother frequently compared me to my detriment. She left school as soon as possible and went to work in Woolworth's and I think this was seen as a much more practical and sensible step.
Gpfr wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Russell wrote: "The reference to 15 to 17 arose because our school, ... pushed us to do O Levels a year early, which meant we started on our A Levels a ye..."stronger pupils w..."
much later, my GCSE and A levels were done at the standard ages like you GP...16-18, in the early 1990s
my parents would agree with Russell about that generation, they may be a bit older(born 1945) but things were good, both were grammar school educated and went to unversity, got good jobs etc. (grammar school through parental choice not financial as well, simply the best local schools were grammar and that was that for my grandparents considering education for my parents)
On the subject of equal pay, when I first worked in a bank in 1966 the men got paid more but within a few years it changed to equal pay.
Bill wrote: "...The quartet has brought the Franck quartet to play, but rather than playing anything straight through, Proust directs them in fragments of the piece, such as "Play the middle section of the Larghetto", "Now play the close of the first movement exposition," and so on."
Ah, now I get it. Painter describes how on one occasion Proust got a quartet to come and play for him in the ”superlative acoustics” of the cork-lined bedroom in Boulevard Haussmann, at one in the morning, in 1917. And when they had finished, he asked if they would do him the immense kindnesss of playing the whole work again. He paid them there and then with a Chinese casket stuffed with 50 franc notes. (He and his brother had each inherited from their parents the sum of £3.5 million, and an income of £10,000 a month.)
On other evenings they played the Fauré Piano quartet and quartets by Mozart, Ravel, Schumann, the late Beethoven quartets, and the Franck violin sonata, “of which Proust insisted on hearing the third movement again and again.”
Ah, now I get it. Painter describes how on one occasion Proust got a quartet to come and play for him in the ”superlative acoustics” of the cork-lined bedroom in Boulevard Haussmann, at one in the morning, in 1917. And when they had finished, he asked if they would do him the immense kindnesss of playing the whole work again. He paid them there and then with a Chinese casket stuffed with 50 franc notes. (He and his brother had each inherited from their parents the sum of £3.5 million, and an income of £10,000 a month.)
On other evenings they played the Fauré Piano quartet and quartets by Mozart, Ravel, Schumann, the late Beethoven quartets, and the Franck violin sonata, “of which Proust insisted on hearing the third movement again and again.”
scarletnoir wrote: "Russell wrote: "The reference to 15 to 17 arose..." I did Maths and Welsh language at 14..."
Is there a word in Welsh for “Crikey”?
Is there a word in Welsh for “Crikey”?
giveusaclue wrote: "...Latin, my best result at O level and, as you say, still useful today. I think it is a great basis for learning other languages."
Isn’t it just? When I was working I occasionally needed to read documents in Spanish and Italian. With the foundation in Latin, and a dictionary, I could manage quite well.
Isn’t it just? When I was working I occasionally needed to read documents in Spanish and Italian. With the foundation in Latin, and a dictionary, I could manage quite well.
AB76 wrote: "does the LOA include all his non-fiction then?"I'm not entirely sure, but it may well be complete. There are 1472 pages of text, the last 150+ of which are devoted to marginalia.
Poe's long speculative essay on the formation of the solar system, "Eureka: A Prose Poem" is included in the other LOA volume, devoted to his poems and tales.
Russell wrote: "On other evenings they played the Fauré Piano quartet and quartets by Mozart, Ravel, Schumann, the late Beethoven quartets, and the Franck violin sonata, “of which Proust insisted on hearing the third movement again and again.”"I've seen this recording:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical...
which supposedly re-creates a concert from 1 July 1907.
The Wagner selection reminds me that last year I read Colette's The Complete Claudine from this period because I'd read that a section of the third book takes place at the Bayreuth festival.
"Les baricades mistérieuses" is mentioned in the prologue to The Worm Ouroboros. That was one of the first literary references to classical music that I recall recognizing.
Robert wrote: "PM was 1940s New York's Popular Front paper. This supports the theory that the buzz phrase came from the left..."Again, I don't buy your argument - who would invent a 'self-derogatory' phrase?
'First reported by' ... perhaps. 'Coined by'? makes no sense.
Let me edit - once again - the textual evidence:
"According to Leo J. Margolin, the author of the story, a group of concerned OCS commanders traveled to Washington in the fall of 1942 to determine why these candidates, who were well-regarded by both their commanding officers and their colleagues, were being denied commissions. [They] were told little except perhaps this: ‘He was prematurely anti-Fascist.’ (Spanish War veteran).”
This makes it clear that the phrase was being used 'against' the Spanish civil war veterans by the 'powers that be'. It was not created, devised or introduced by the veterans themselves, except as reported speech.
But I see you are not to be persuaded on this despite the evidence, so we shall have to 'agree to disagree'.
Not literature, but having read a book about the American Civil war fairly recently, and remarked on how much of a shambles the Union army seemed to be in a lot of the time, I have just finished watching a series on PBS America Lincoln: Divided We Stand. I found it really interesting. I never knew anything about his poverty stricken background, or how self-taught he was. It did confirm what an arrogant waste of space McClelland was when it came to making decisions in battle, and the difference in that attitude between McClelland and Grant.
It also led me to dwell on the current (and not totally unjustified) attitude to the British and slavery. The current practice seems to ignore the fact that there were providers, black African tribes, British trade slavers, and American slave buyers. It also overlooks the fact that we passed an Act abolishing the slave trade in 1807 and abolishing slavery itself in 1833, decades before the US. It also ignores the fact that Between 1808 and 1860, the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans. Around 2,000 British sailors died on their mission of freeing slaves with the West Africa Squadron. It took a 4 year civil war and around 800,000 deaths before it was abolished in the US.
Food for thought?
WRT mothers and education following from previous comments... my own mother was a fairly early female graduate (B.Sc.) in around 1942 or '43. Her own mother had little education (left school at 12 or so) but har father had a BA and a PhD, and as a teacher valued education. She was also an only child, and my grandparents supported women's suffrage etc. So, off to uni. she went. She was a great help to me during my schooldays, at least until her own knowledge of the subjects I studied was insufficient to be of any use (at A level).
Darktown by Thomas MullenThis is an exceptionally good 'crime' novel, which is much more than just that. It is set in Atlanta in 1948, and is set around the historically factual enlistment of eight black police officers in 1948.
These black officers were not treated as equals to the whites - oh, no. They were restricted to patrolling their 'own' area; they were not permitted to arrest whites; they were not permitted inside the police station, but were housed in the basement of a YMCA... etc. Mullen builds a narrative which both manages to reveal the many indignities and the hostility faced by these officers, as well as building a good story based on the murder of a coloured girl. Somehow, the (fictional) Officers Biggs and Smith (black) and Rakestraw (white) become interested in the same case, and gradually move to a position of mutual assistance, despite a degree of mistrust.
This is definitely not a 'whodunit', even though the identity of the killer isn't completely clear until towards the end. It is much more of a historical novel, recreating the race tensions of that time and the degrees of racism felt by different characters: many of the white cops hate the fact that 'negroes' have been allowed to wear the same uniform (although without the same privileges or use of squad cars etc.). Even Rakestraw, who is not overtly racist, isn't keen on 'blacks' moving into his part of town, though he would not break the law to prevent them. The book manages very well, through its protagonists, to personify the various degrees of feeling of both white and black residents. It is also a rattling good yarn.
I have also bought and just started the next book in the series: Lightning Men. Here, we also get historical development - an area which was previously 'white' is now mixed, as I assume really came to pass. I look forward to more education on the history of race relations in Atlanta and Georgia, through the lens of the Atlanta PD.
This is a link to a recent news story on the 75th anniversary:
https://www.atlantanewsfirst.com/2023...
Turnpike Books have been a good source of great literature from Northern Ireland in last 4-5 years, novels written up to the 1960s from all religious backgrounds, based in, or written by, natives of Northern IrelandThe Wayward Man by St John Ervine(1927) has been excellent so far, set in a Presbyterian suburb of Belfast, so far it follows a family, widowed matriach and her children, as they mature in what i think is roughly late victorian times. The Ulster humour and religious fervour is present but without any sectarian bent as yet)
The main character is beaten up by "papishe" youths as he nicks through the Short Strand to get home quicker, tended to by a girl he knows, he has no religious hatred for the lads who beat him up "ah they are nothing worse than us" he says.
The novel is fairly traditional, laced with Belfast slang, it also is full of the hard working society values of the Presbyterian Scots who form about half of the Protestant population. References to Salvation Army halls, Temperance Cafe's give it a flavour of the times, this vibrant, bustling city, growing so quickly....
Robert wrote: "PM was 1940s New York's Popular Front paper. This supports the theory that the buzz phrase came from the left."I'm curious: given that you feel this phrase, "premature anti-fascist" came from the left, what conclusions are you drawing from this premise? There seems to be some point you're trying to make or hint at that I'm not quite seeing.
scarletnoir wrote: "Robert wrote: "PM was 1940s New York's Popular Front paper. This supports the theory that the buzz phrase came from the left..."Again, I don't buy your argument - who would invent a 'self-derogat..."
I wonder if at some point this became a phrase that was "taken over" by some members of the group it was aimed at in a derogatory way, or at least if there was an attempt along those lines.
You know - the way "queer", in its sense of an insulting epithet aimed at homosexuals, was "taken back" (I believe this was how they put it, but "taken over" would have been more accurate) by some homosexual groups themselves as a gesture of - defiance, I suppose?
If this also happened with "premature anti-fascist" it might account for some of the confusion in the historical record, if there is any.
Also, I suspect that after WWII, the kind of people who originally used "premature anti-fascist" in a disparaging way would have been careful not to continue doing so, since it was now accepted dogma that fighting fascism was a great idea and was what WWII had been all about.
As a rule, nothing is more destructive to civilized discourse than conversation about children and how to bring them up. - Lionel Trilling, introduction to The Immediate Experience: Movies, Comics, Theatre, and Other Aspects of Popular Culture.
Proust has been a long-deferred reading project for e. I have almost all the Scott-Moncrief volumes and with therefore start with those, sometime within the next year or two, I hope.
Berkley wrote: "Proust has been a long-deferred reading project"Though I’ve read a good deal of praise for Proust without particularly seeking it out (not always, I admit, from critics I admire), I somehow doubt my own ability to carry through with a reading.
I am curious about what inspires other readers to undertake it.
Do you want to read the novel because of its general status a modern classic? Or is it as a French classic in particular that it interests you? Have the reports of specific readers or critics had an influence?
As I asked @Russell of his situation before his first reading: How much are you conversant with French culture and history (particularly that of the period covered by Proust)? Do you have any knowledge of the French language?
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Shining (other topics)Danse Macabre (other topics)
On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft (other topics)
11/22/63 (other topics)
The Thieves' Opera (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Stanley Elkin (other topics)John O'Hara (other topics)
Me. I read it in French..."
I’ve read it in English. After failing to get far in the original I started again with the Scott-Moncrieff translation (which I found perfectly wonderful, though much critiqued since). It took me six months. A year or so later I was still in a profound Proustian trance, and I read the whole thing again, with the same transcendent result. That was 50+ years ago. Despite the years, it has remained just about my most emotional and inspiring reading experience, a great mountain peak in my mental landscape.
Each time, like GP, I found The Sweet Cheat Gone (Albertine Disparue) a terrible trial. But if you can drag yourself through the quicksand you arrive at the magnificent resolution of Time Regained.
I devoured the two-volume Painter biography, to me almost as marvellous as the novel itself. I read that twice too. Of the many Proust-related books I have read, it would be at the top of my list.
Close behind would be the slim and evocative Czapski (partly for the circumstances of its conception). I also really liked the short biography by Edmund White, which lays much more emphasis than Painter on the homosexuality, without squeezing out everything else.
Now that (in retirement) my reading French has become more or less fluent I’m planning a third visit, though lately I’ve been wondering whether I should place a limit on my ambition and just read Le Temps Retrouvé, and only if that goes OK start at the beginning.
I have got a complete set of the old Livre de Poche, but that has zero notes. I also have the Pléiade edition, but that has a vast quantity of notes and variations, so you often get just three lines of text on a page, and everything else is footnotes, a ludicrous and distracting way to present a magnum opus of the human spirit. So I’m assembling copies of the Folio Classique, which has selected notes in the back if you want to look at them.
I had the good fortune once to visit the house in Illiers-Combray, and stood in the bedroom and the kitchen and the garden, all on a perfect summer afternoon. The best moment was going out the garden gate to walk down to the water gardens, and being surprised to hear over my head the charming tinkle of la petite sonnette. Was it the original? Doesn’t matter.
GP - Lovely picture of the Comtesse, thank you.