Classics and the Western Canon discussion
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Independent People
Laxness, Independent People
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Week 1: Kolumkilli - Dry Weather
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I think the encomium on the bucolic life was meant (by Laxness) to be ironic. Judging from Bjartur's experience, farm life in Iceland means hardship, isolation, ignorance, and a diet of porridge and fish three meals a day.
It's probably worth noting that from the 16th century onwards, a seventh son (or, more rarely, seventh daughter) was widely thought to have psychic powers, usually as a healer, but sometimes as a dowser or fortune-teller.
Donnally wrote: "It's probably worth noting that from the 16th century onwards, a seventh son (or, more rarely, seventh daughter) was widely thought to have psychic powers, usually as a healer, but sometimes as a d..."That's interesting. It helps to explain why Rosa insisted on throwing a stone at the cairn. She brings it up, again, later--which annoys Bjartur. It could be because she believes in the old superstition or maybe because she has insight into the future.
From what I’ve read so far it seems that any price is not too high for Bjartur’s independent. I am curious to see if this idea is tested through out the book (first time reading this). I am also curious if Bjartur felt he needed to marry someone or if his marriage is part of his idea of independence.
The bailiff's wife seems to be either willfully ignorant of the hardships and inequality of life and it's ironic how she stresses the equality ('Equally bright. Equally warm. This power is the true socialism') or oddly, the inequality of how the poor have better lives than the rich, saying the poor have 'smaller expenses' and that they are 'happy practically without exception'.She seems to have successfully self-deluded herself into ignoring the dismal state of the peasants living standards or inequality and even glorifies it to the point of blessing it. On the other hand, the psalmist Einar of Undirhlith seems to be honest with the problem but still ignores it by despising the world and only concerns himself with the so-called advantage in the peasants' afterlife. The peasants have no choice but to hope for 'tolerable days that are only fulfilled in heaven'. I think I saw 'only fulfilled in heaven' about 3 times in the wedding. Was Christianity a way to appease the people's misery and dissatisfaction against the social system as much as the gruesome and foreboding folklore and superstition a way to keep people under fear and submission against cruel nature?
I've also seen a bunch of 'independence' and 'world war' in Bjartur and Rosa's life. At first it seemed to be heroic at first, but it grew old pretty fast and I saw that it was only Bjatur's war and none concerning Rosa's. 'Such was this world war.....soon the victory would be won, but she was not glad; no one that wins a victory in a world war is ever glad; she was utterly exhausted.'
This made me wonder about the historical background of this novel. Was it written around the time of the great war?
Borum wrote: "This made me wonder about the historical background of this novel. Was it written around the time of the great war?.."The novel was originally published in two volumes in 1934 and 1935. It is set in the early 20th century around the time of the great war although the specific dates are a little hazy.
I'm curious, has anyone read A House for Mr Biswas? It's quite similar in many ways to my impression of Independent People so far.
Mike wrote: "From what I’ve read so far it seems that any price is not too high for Bjartur’s independent. I am curious to see if this idea is tested through out the book (first time reading this). I am also cu..."Good point. How high (or low) will he go to fight for his independence? It seems like his obsession with independence haunts him like the spectres do over the place.. He won't say the lord's prayers but he sure seems to religiously adhere to his independence.
Viktor wrote: "I'm curious, has anyone read A House for Mr Biswas? It's quite similar in many ways to my impression of Independent People so far."I haven't read it, but the blurb on it sounds interesting.
Bjartur seems to be riddled with contradictions. On the one hand, he spits at Gunnvor's cairn, saying, "Damn the stone you'll ever get from me, you old bitch." Later, he won't allow Rosa to give her a stone, declaring, "I will have no truck with superstition. She can lie where she is, the old bitch."So, which is it? Does Bjartur believe in the existence of Gunnvor or not? His tone is very defiant when addressing her. It's almost as if he challenges her. If he doesn't believe in her or her power to hurt, why does he bother to talk to her? And if he does believe in her, why not let Rosa give her a stone to appease her spirit?
Is this seemingly contradictory behavior another illustration of Bjartur's determination to be independent?
Why does Rosa marry Bjartur? It doesn't seem like a very good match, and she seems to have little idea what she's getting into.
Roger wrote: "Why does Rosa marry Bjartur? It doesn't seem like a very good match, and she seems to have little idea what she's getting into."Bjartur and Rosa knew each other because they both worked for the bailiff, so he is not a stranger to her. Bjartur suspects she has had sex with the bailiff's son and is pregnant with his baby:
"You love those who are fine enough gentlemen to kick you out when they're sick of you, then you go off and marry someone you despise."
And later:
" . . . and for this swine that you stood the bailiff's sarcasms when he thought you didn't water the homefield proudly enough with the pots from under their beds. And now they even ask me to rear their bastards in my own house."
(Secrets chapter)
Rosa is twenty-six years old, comes from a poor family, works as a maid in the bailiff's home, and is carrying Ingolfur's baby. What option is available to her other than to marry Bjartur?
Tamara wrote: "Bjartur seems to be riddled with contradictions. On the one hand, he spits at Gunnvor's cairn, saying, "Damn the stone you'll ever get from me, you old bitch." Later, he won't allow Rosa to give he..."I agree with you, Tamara, it seems a contradiction. But only if we think of it in a very rational way and it seems that Bjartur has some very strong emotions about his independence. So, he is strongly reacting to what he sees as a threat to his dream of independence and he does that by strongly affirming by acts and words that Gunnvor will not take his dream from him. It is one aspect of him that we can relate to, this passionate side. I confess that so far he does not seem to me like a very likeable character.
Monica wrote: "So, he is strongly reacting to what he sees as a threat to his dream of independence and he does that by strongly affirming by acts and words that Gunnvor will not take his dream from him. It is one aspect of him that we can relate to, this passionate side."Great point, Monica.
He perceives Gunnvor as threatening his independence, but he won’t bow down to her. He aims to succeed without relying on anyone for help. He won’t even rely on supernatural powers. He tells Rosa he will say an occasional prayer but only if it rhymes. And he certainly will not appease Gunnvor even though she can ostensibly cause harm. He sees acquiescence to Gunnvor as tacit acknowledgement that she has power over him. And that simply won’t do. He will not relinquish his power or be indebted to anyone unless he knows he can pay back the debt.
As he says to Rosa:
“I won’t take the begging road to anyone for anything, unless life depends on it and I can pay to the last penny.”
As you said, he is passionate about his independence. He is also excessively proud and foolish to think he can succeed without help because none of us can succeed without a network of support from others. But at the same time, I can’t help feeling there is something endearing about an individual so fiercely determined and so utterly convinced he can succeed exclusively through his own efforts.
I've also been curious about such emphasis on food.I can see that she misses the meat and milk at Rauthsmyri but her craving seems to be somewhat excessive.
Is she really pregnant or is it some kind of supernatural phenomenon?
Also, why does Bjartur feel such disgust at the eel? I don't know much about Icelandic cuisine but I thought the British people eat jellied eels and there seems to be an Icelandic dish with smoked eel.
Tamara wrote: "Roger wrote: "Why does Rosa marry Bjartur? It doesn't seem like a very good match, and she seems to have little idea what she's getting into."Bjartur and Rosa knew each other because they both wo..."
It's certainly plausible that she did it out of desperation, but I don't recall any indication of that in the text.
Monica wrote: " I confess that so far he does not seem to me like a very likeable character. "I rather like him. And Rosa seems, well, peculiar; her own brand of "independence."
Borum wrote: "Also, why does Bjartur feel such disgust at the eel?"They seem to exist on a diet of bread, fish, and coffee. I don't know why Bjartur is so disgusted at the eel other than the fact it doesn't sound appetizing.
"the fact it doesn't sound appetizing." Whereas the bread and catfish does?
Sam wrote: "And Rosa seems, well, peculiar; her own brand of "independence.""Rosa is a mixture of weakness and defiance.
On the one hand, she won't throw a stone at Gunnvor's cairn because Bjartur won't allow it. But her failure to placate Gunnvor continues to haunt her. On the other hand, she sneaks out of the croft with a package of wool that she intends to offer to the Mistress of Myri in exchange for a bottle of milk. Bjartur finds her and has to carry her home because she is too weak to walk. So Rosa doesn't get her milk. The only thing she gets is a promise from Bjartur that he will set aside some ewes for milking next summer.
Sam wrote: ""the fact it doesn't sound appetizing." Whereas the bread and catfish does?"That doesn't sound appetizing, either, especially since the fish is either dried or boiled. But I think that is all that's available to them. I don't think I saw any mention of fruits and vegetables other than the "expensive raisins" in the Christmas cake at Bjartur and Rosa's wedding.
Tamara wrote: "So, which is it? Does Bjartur believe in the existence of Gunnvor or not? His tone is very defiant when addressing her. It's almost as if he challenges her. If he doesn't believe in her or her power to hurt, why does he bother to talk to her? And if he does believe in her, why not let Rosa give her a stone to appease her spirit?"This is what I see as the foundation of the title's meaning in that even if Gunnvor were alive, in some sense, it was more important for him to be independent of her, just as with everything. It is the very image of refusing to believe in something because it would create a bond.
Bjartur is not afraid of contradictions, or even inconsistencies, but he is afraid of losing his independence.
Rhonda wrote: "This is what I see as the foundation of the title's meaning in that even if Gunnvor were alive, in some sense, it was more important for him to be independent of her, just as with everything. It is the very image of refusing to believe in something because it would create a bond...."I'm wondering if this also extends to his relationship with Rosa. He isn't sensitive to her needs and doesn't seem connected to her. Does he perceive all bonds--even a bond with his wife--as a threat to his independence?
Tamara wrote: "I'm wondering if this also extends to his relationship with Rosa. He isn't sensitive to her needs and doesn't seem connected to her. Does he perceive all bonds--even a bond with his wife--as a threat to his independence?"The author wrote, The history of the centuries in this valley is the history of an independent man who grapples barehanded with a spectre which bears a new and ever newer name.
He also writes about how the issue of freedom is a relatively new one and, especially in this case, I think an illusory one. From the beginning, one sees that Bjartur as a man insistent on a delusion which makes him feel less about pretty much everything, including his wife. It is significant that the first word that we hear him say is, No. It seems to be a revelation of his character.
Santayana said, The truth is cruel, but it can be loved, and it makes free those who have loved it. It appears to me that Bjartur is unwilling to love anything beyond what he believes is his freedom. He says that his name is supposed to mean bright, but perhaps his odyssey is always ironic.
Their (the whole cast) subsistence seems based on coffee. They drink a lot of coffee. Where is it coming from? I mean, Iceland!
I just got my copy on Fri and have read up to Shepherd's Meet. I hope that is the proper stop for this part of the discussion.Freedom (independence) may be illusionary for us all but to have the opportunity to be responsible for our own lives is something that most people aspire to, wouldn't you say? And to have the dignity of work and for centuries, having one's own land has seemed to be very important in establishing oneself. If I had been a "slave" for someone else for 18 years, I would be very determined to find my independence! Does his independence border on stubbornness at times, you bet. I admire that person who is bound & determined to eke out a living in the only way they know how. I this instance raising sheep and working the land.
I see Rosa as someone who looks backward, someone who hangs on to the superstitions of the culture, Bjartur looks forward, eschewing those superstitions. He is organized (the building of his croft). He has plans on how to grow his sheep farm. His war isn't with spirits, but with nature, such as the vagaries of the weather & what is available to live off the land. The two are definitely a mismatched couple!
As to the Bailiff's wife oration at the wedding. She may be insensitive to those who toil in poverty but oh, I have to say, the writing of this soliloquy was luscious. I could visualize the beauty of the country.
Sam wrote: Their (the whole cast) subsistence seems based on coffee. They drink a lot of coffee. Where is it coming from? I mean, Iceland! I wondered about that too. What are they making the coffee from?
Chris wrote: "I just got my copy on Fri and have read up to Shepherd's Meet. I hope that is the proper stop for this part of the discussion.Freedom (independence) may be illusionary for us all but to have the ..."
Chris, you're a couple of chapters ahead of us, but that's no problem because we will catch up next week.
Here's the link for the reading schedule:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Chris wrote: "As to the Bailiff's wife oration at the wedding. She may be insensitive to those who toil in poverty but oh, I have to say, the writing of this soliloquy was luscious. I could visualize the beauty of the country...."Chris brings up an aspect we haven't really touched on: Laxness’ use of language. I think the language is, at times, poetic, rhythmic, beautiful in its simplicity, and uplifting. One such breathtaking passage is in “The Holding,” in this week’s selection:
And when the spring breezes blow up in the valley; when the spring sun shines on last year’s withered grass on the river banks; and on the lake; and on the lake’s two white swans; and coaxes the new grass out of the spongy soil in the marshes—who could believe on such a day that this peaceful, grassy valley brooded over the story of our past; and over its spectres? People ride along the river, along the banks where side by side lie many paths, cut one by one, century after century, by the horses of the past—and the fresh spring breeze blows through the valley in the sunshine. On such a day the sun is stronger than the past.
Any passages that stand out for you in this section—or in any other section of this week’s reading?
Sam wrote: "Their (the whole cast) subsistence seems based on coffee. They drink a lot of coffee. Where is it coming from? I mean, Iceland!"Coffee is treated as a precious commodity. I can understand the focus on the various parasites invading their sheep since sheep represent their livelihood. But what I don’t get is all this emphasis on coffee. What’s up with all that coffee-drinking? Tea, I might understand. But coffee??? I have no idea where they're getting their coffee.
I had an oddly unmoored feeling reading this at first, not knowing what era it was set in. It seemed like it could be anywhere from 1400 to 1900. Then I came across allusions to corrugated steel, emigration to America, educational institutions, and similar things that pushed it to the late 1800s. I wonder if this was a deliberate evocation of the isolation and timelessness of rural Icelandic life.
Roger wrote: "I wonder if this was a deliberate evocation of the isolation and timelessness of rural Icelandic life..."The novel is set in the late 19th and early 20th century. But your point is well taken, Roger.
I think Laxness is intentionally evoking the isolation and timelessness of rural Icelandic life. That's why he begins by referring to Iceland's mythic past with its ghosts and sorcerers. It's as if those ancient characters are still around. Their presence is felt in the land and they are very much alive in the daily life and minds of Iceland's rural population. Laxness peppers his writing throughout with a strong sense that the past is never really past. It lives in the present. You can see examples of this even in the paragraph I cited above (#29).
One thing came to mind, reading the comments here. Strangely, it didn't while I read the book. Rosa's complains and actions remind me of Israel in the wilderness. Do you think, that Laxness draws the parallel between Bjartur's quest for independence and biblical escape from captivity or it is too farfetched?
Alexey wrote: "Do you think, that Laxness draws the parallel between Bjartur's quest for independence and biblical escape from captivity or it is too farfetched?."You may be right, Alexey, but I don't see that. I see Bjartur as more of an early pioneer settling the land. I don't get the sense he feels trapped or abused and has the need to flee from injustice. He is strong and confident. He isn't intimidated by anyone or anything. He is consistently himself regardless of his audience. He speaks his mind without fear, even to the bailiff.
I see his war, as Chris describes in #27, as a war with nature. Nature includes not just the harsh climate or the rugged terrain but also the "natural" parasites that invade his sheep and threaten to kill them off. That is a battle he seems to relish. He is ready to take it on and is convinced he can win with hard work, sacrifice, and sheer tenacity.
I see Bjartur as stubborn, incorrigible, and stupid in some ways. But he also has some very admirable qualities.
I quite agree with you about Bjartur's character, and, in any case, it is too early to say definitely if this motive influenced the author or not. But I'll look with interest if the novel has something of it further.
Something curious: in Wikipedia's page for "Independent people", Kolumkilli is referenced as Saint Columba who is described (again in Wikipedia but in his own page) as "an Irish abbot and missionary evangelist credited with spreading Christianity in what is today Scotland". And actually Islandic Saint Columba's page is written as "Kolumkilli". But it was the only place where I have seen this link between Kolumkilli, who cursed Bjartur's lands, and St Columba.
Monica wrote: "Something curious: in Wikipedia's page for "Independent people", Kolumkilli is referenced as Saint Columba who is described (again in Wikipedia but in his own page) as "an Irish abbot and missionar..."That is curious. The opening pages of Independent People refer to Kolumkilli as an Irish "sorcerer of wide repute." There is also a reference to a church he built. So he may very well be Saint Columba. But if that is the case, it is curious why the Icelandic legend transforms him from a saint to "fiend" who haunts the land and makes an evil compact with Gunnvor.
Interestingly, Kolumkilli is mentioned in Irish and Scottish sources as one of Irish missionaries travelled in Scotland with St. Columba.
Alexey wrote: "Interestingly, Kolumkilli is mentioned in Irish and Scottish sources as one of Irish missionaries travelled in Scotland with St. Columba."So he traveled with St. Columba but he is not St. Columba?
So I read, but in Iceland related articles he is St. Columba. It could be a coincidence, just cross my mind, this name is quite suitable for Icelandic rendering of Columba and for the Irish monk. besides, Irish and Icelandic pronunciations are different, I believe.
Alexey wrote: "One thing came to mind, reading the comments here. Strangely, it didn't while I read the book. Rosa's complains and actions remind me of Israel in the wilderness. Do you think, that Laxness draws the parallel between Bjartur's quest for independence and biblical escape from captivity or it is too farfetched?"Rosa reminded me of Rachel in Genesis 31: 22-42 when Rachel persisted in her loyalty to the household gods. It seems to me ancient traditions and relationships to existence are in abrasion here. (Christianity/monotheism was both slow and early to northern Europe -- and even ancient antiquity.) Then, too, we have the setting in time of the narrative. The "Great War", not yet WWI? Laxness receives Nobel in 1955? Independence published ~1934-35? I'll be watching for more.
It strikes me that Bjartur would hardly win "modern" acclaim for what we might refer to as "emotional intelligence" in his treatment of Rosa. Other ways and places, he can be considered shrewd?
Sam wrote: "Their (the whole cast) subsistence seems based on coffee. They drink a lot of coffee. Where is it coming from? I mean, Iceland!"The coffee caught my ear, too. I grew up in the heavily Scandinavian/German Midwest. I knew how coffee was oft on the stove and offered the visitor, albeit weak, "dish-water" weak by standards I discovered once my world broadened. I find the good ole Internet search informative -- you might, too: https://www.verdict.co.uk/world-coffe...
This article claims Iceland and its Scandinavian neighbors have the highest per capita coffee consumption in the world. It links the tradition to the poverty of these countries (coffee import taxes less than liquor?) , association with "coffee klatsches," ...
Also from this article: "Tiú dropar, or ten drops as it translates to from Icelandic, is a tiny cup of coffee designed specifically for somebody who is visiting, perhaps to drop something off, or going door to door. A perfect way to fulfil the usual coffee offering, but without guests needing to stay for a whole mug full!"
(Article has other fun trivia, including re author Stieg Larsson.)
Thanks, Lily. That's a great article. I love the recipe for the alcoholic coffee! And regarding Laxness' late Nobel, I understand that the committee's makeup changed from right to left, and he was a communist. Another laureate awaited that change, Saramago, from Portugal.
Donnally wrote: "It's probably worth noting that from the 16th century onwards, a seventh son (or, more rarely, seventh daughter) was widely thought to have psychic powers, usually as a healer [...]"
The theme is at the centre of Kaj Munk's 1925 play "Ordet" (The Word), which took Denmark and the whole Scandinavian world by storm, was widely discussed in the papers, represented hundreds of times (including a few times in Germany and later in the rest of the continent), was made into a movie in 1943 and eventually entered the [Nordic] canon. It's worth remembering that between 1818-1944 Iceland was united/associated to Denmark.
The play can be read online @ "Internet Archive" > "Five Plays by Kaj Munk".
The theme is at the centre of Kaj Munk's 1925 play "Ordet" (The Word), which took Denmark and the whole Scandinavian world by storm, was widely discussed in the papers, represented hundreds of times (including a few times in Germany and later in the rest of the continent), was made into a movie in 1943 and eventually entered the [Nordic] canon. It's worth remembering that between 1818-1944 Iceland was united/associated to Denmark.
The play can be read online @ "Internet Archive" > "Five Plays by Kaj Munk".
Mike wrote: "From what I’ve read so far it seems that any price is not too high for Bjartur’s independent. I am curious to see if this idea is tested through out the book (first time reading this). I am also cu..."Independence seems to mean that Bjartur does not agree with anyone or expect them to agree with him. And he especially wouldn't agree with a woman, however, he is entwined with myths and legends to an extent that he can't be scoffing at Rose's actual beliefs, but rather his pride scoffing at supporting the beliefs of a lesser being.
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A House for Mr Biswas (other topics)A House for Mr Biswas (other topics)
The narrator then moves on to describe the topography of Albogastathir, now known as Winterhouses. Generations of independent-minded people have settled the land, determined to prosper. This auspicious beginning leads us to Bjartur, a fiercely independent man who values freedom above all else and who dismisses stories of ghosts. He has scraped money for 18 years to purchase Winterhouses, which some believed to be cursed. He proudly surveys his land, renames it Summerhouses, and marries 26-year-old Rosa, the youngest daughter of seven children. Bjartur is known for his skill in reciting traditional Icelandic poetry and for his ability to compose impromptu verse. On the way to her new home, Rosa wants to throw a stone at Gunnvor’s cairn to ward off evil. Bjartur won’t allow it. Disappointed in her reaction when she sees the home he is so proud of, he quarrels with her, accusing her of engaging in sexual relations with the bailiff’s son. Rosa vehemently denies it.
Bjartur works hard, but Rosa shows no interest in his sheep or his work. When she tells him she is tired of eating fish and wants to eat meat, he insists independence is better than meat. She continues to dream of milk and meat. Her health and appearance deteriorate. Bjartur is convinced she suffers from a nervous disorder.
Why does Laxness begin with Iceland’s mythic past? And why does he claim evidence of the legends can be seen, heard, and felt in the actual land?
Our first introduction to Bjartur is when he says the word “No.” He curses Gunnvor’s cairn and refuses to throw a stone to appease her spirit. How does this introduction set the tone for his personality?
What forces does Bjartur think he has to contend with in order to succeed on his land?
The bailiff’s wife, Madam of Myri, feels compelled to make a speech at the wedding of Bjartur and Rosa since bride and groom were employed by her husband. She expresses firm opinions about the benefits of country life. What do you think of her lengthy speech? Does she have a realistic assessment of country life and farm work?