Sci-Fi, fantasy and speculative Indie Authors Review discussion
Suggestions
>
Negative style marketing working better, whats up?
date
newest »
newest »
R.F.G. wrote: "Ads have been in books for a while, and I still shudder."I haven't seen it in an e-book yet, but I have a paperback from the sixties that has a cigarette ad in the middle, so there is nothing new about the idea. I can't say I like the idea of advertising in books very much though.
Rob wrote: "The concept of having a free version and an add-free as we have for Android Apps makes sense."I don't think I can quite agree with that. I don't know how ap writers feel, but financing my work with ads does not sit well with me, especially if I'm not in control of the ads that run. That sounds like a can of worms.
It would also require a shift to the "TV" paradigm, where people got used to "free" entertainment that they paid for by having it interrupted by ads. Maybe people have already done that, maybe not.
For my part, the continuous invasion of every aspect of life by ads, and media of all sorts (especially interactive media), is a very unhealthy thing. I would like to see people draw a line and say "enough is enough" and ads in books seems like a good place for that.
Rob wrote: "I think it should not be up to content providers to choose for readers and to draw such lines."But aps are not books. I'm dubious that is a valid comparison. Now if an author wishes to support his or her work with ads, I might personally sigh, but that is his or her business. I have no say.
Which is the point. We do and we should, as authors, make such choices for readers. It is our work -- we created it. We retain the right to sell it as we see fit, where we see fit, for a price we consider reasonable, and in a form that we choose.
So if I say, "No ads in my book!" the reader does not get to impose on me. He does not get to dictate the price to me (which if I'm being paid with ads, he by his behavior, will). He pays for the book or he goes elsewhere. That is the reader's choice. How we sell our work is our choice.
PS: I don't mean to veer off into a philosophical discussion on property rights. As fun and edifying as that could no doubt be, this is not the place for it.
I'm okay with ads to help fund my books if the readers are. I'm an unrepentant laissez-faire Capitalist, with nothing to repent for. But I couldn't read such a book, and I'm afraid it will become as excessive as it has become on TV and certain websites. If it comes to pass, I'll probably go back to hardcovers and paperbacks exclusively, all available at my local library.
Owen wrote: "If that is the cover that aforementioned had a problem with... good lord. Oh yes, the kiddies must be protected from that. Much better they watch the mayhem on the evening news. :-P "That is the cover in question.
This is the Plain Brown Wrapper version that passed the prude-review.
http://www.lulu.com/shop/rfg-cameron/...
This will not be done to the print version.
Mod
If I want to offer a book for free, I am doing ao with the knowledge that I will gain no revenue from the free book. I do this simply to generate interest in my work. If someone pays for the next book, then my free offering did its job.
With apps, I've taken to avoiding those with too many ads as they bog down my devices. And when it comes to apps, I might have a dozen at best. Books, I have hundreds. Would I even be able to crack open the book at that point or will too many of my resources be allocated to the ads?
Even if the ads are static, they will be distracting and could inadvertently lead to lower ratings because readers will not be as engaged in the story if their eyes are constantly straying to the 'one weird trick' or whatever the clickbait du jour is.
That is, aside from the overbalance of one star reviews that will come simply because of the existence of the ads. Don't think that just because your book is clearly marked as free & w/ads that someone won't complain. I see it all the time on free apps.
Another consideration to factor in is crapware / bloatware, such as has afflicted many computers and other devices.When the ad-app programmers hook up with businesses that pay for their content to be included, that content can include viruses, trojans, and a host of other things you don't want.
R.F.G: Somehow that makes me feels like I'm having a Rip Van Winkle moment. Back in the days of my misspent youth (when there were lots a mildly racy book covers), we tended to think the future would be more open and less uptight. (Blink-blink)Christina: They still do that, I believe, and I have no problem with it anymore than I do with us putting "ads" (links) to all our books at the front and back of our ebooks. We should be able to promote our own work in our own product and the same goes for a publishers. And Amazon puts book ads on my Kindle, in exchange for a discount. But they are (for now) book ads and from a publisher, so I figure that falls into the same category.
But as you say, dynamic content ads (like that 12 pages of porn) are entirely different, and as you and R.F.G. both point out, could have all sorts of nasty fallout.
I'm hoping the public will start to resist this -- there was another thread previously about deploying what amounts to JavaScript in the ePub format to allow your eBook to do all kinds of really heinous things. Put that together with ads (what it's designed for) and you have a true nightmare.
Owen wrote: "R.F.G: Somehow that makes me feels like I'm having a Rip Van Winkle moment. Back in the days of my misspent youth (when there were lots a mildly racy book covers), we tended to think the future would be more open and less uptight. (Blink-blink)"I did the PBW as a mild protest. It was suggested that I ask the cover artist to blur out the nipples, which are shadowy at best. To me that would be equivalent to letting some fidiot take a portable grinder into a museum to censor something like Michelangelo's "David", or similar works. Instead they got the cheesy Plain Brown Wrapper with enough of a glimpse at the original art to (hopefully) look for the uncensored version.
Regarding ads in my e-versions, it won't happen by my hand. I think the distribution agreement Lulu has prohibits live links, though you can show web addresses or promote whatever you want (within reason) in the back matter after the story.
R.F.G. wrote: "I did the PBW as a mild protest. "I figured the cover was a "bit" more than actually called for. We would have done the same thing in your place, rather than just employ the "odious blur". My comment was more directed at the whole situation, not just the PBW.
We actually have a nice cover (we think) for an upcoming book that features a bare-breasted woman, because that's the key to the whole thing. We haven't quite figured out how to deal with that yet. (Since the book won't be finished anytime soon, we have a long time.) I do find it interesting that Amazon is apparently more liberal on this issue.
When we published our first book, it wasn't at all clear if Amazon allowed live links in Kindle editions, beyond what gets automatically inserted with the back matter (rate this book etc). So we left them out, having just the URL but not making it active. But it appears that they do allow links, at least to an Amazon product page (and why wouldn't they -- they want to sell books) or a blog. So we updated all our editions with active links in the "Also by" list.
I would guess Lulu does not allow that since the eBook is going to different outlets and Apple would not like a link to B&N. We are exclusive to Amazon, so that problem does not arise. If we weren't, I don't know what their policy would be.
Owen wrote: "I figured the cover was a "bit" more than actually called for. We would have done the same thing in your place, rather than just employ the "odiou..."I originally considered just doing a brown band across the 'objectionable' area, and then decided if I was going to do that, I might as well make it look more like a vintage-censored cover.
I checked with GR after I first learned Apple was so strict, and the cover is fine. Amazon basically wants to move product, so it's fine as e-book and print there as well. On the e-version it's Apple, Kobo, and B&N Nook that are strict, going back to the issue of adults too lazy to set parental controls before handing a device to kids.
With print versions of your book, if they were distributed beyond Amazon you wouldn't really have an issue, as the print version of that very same book I showed you is available on the B&N website.
To be honest, apart from a few spots that aren't PG-13, the two books I have out aren't all that explicit -- I was reading stuff a lot more eye-opening when I was 14 or 15; my eyes didn't pop out and my head didn't explode.
My new negative advert might include: "Tainted by the tiny demonic hand of a creature unborn when it was writ, this book will not make your eyes bulge, your head explode, or cause you to lock yourself in the bathroom for hours of very intense meditation. It will cause you to become entertained in the most perverted of manners, by means of a decently crafted tale."
R.F.G. wrote: "I was reading stuff a lot more eye-opening when I was 14 or 15 ..."I was reading things and viewing art in my teens that would seem to require (in the view of some) a "content warning" or "advisory" these days. No one blinked an eye then. At 14 or 15, you were assumed to be mature enough to handle it.
Now, we do have a "content warning" on our first book, but that's because people weren't paying attention and getting the idea it was YA. That was causing problems with returns, so we felt we needed to make it more obvious what the book about.
Owen wrote: "I was reading things and viewing art in my teens that would seem to require (in the view of some) a "content warning" or "advisory" these days. No one blinked an eye then. At 14 or 15, you were assumed to be mature enough to handle it. "Back in the day I was taught you were assumed to be responsible for your actions once you hit the age of 12, and a person who wouldn't assume responsibility for her or his actions was mentally deficient or had some type of psychological disorder.
Other factors might be applicable (like someone being raised to believe rules don't apply to them), but the bottom line was sloughing your personal responsibility off onto someone else wasn't considered admirable.
Oh well, back to our show, "Fast and Oblivious 45"
R.F.G. wrote: "Owen wrote: "I was reading things and viewing art in my teens that would seem to require (in the view of some) a "content warning" or "advisory" these days. No one blinked an eye then. At 14 or 15,..."
For just a brief departure from the subject of the thread, I can recommend a book that explains much of the behavior that we see today, abetted by all-to-willing politicians who pander for votes. At least, I found it enlightening, and gave it four stars, but you may have read it already. The Snowflake Effect: How the Self-Esteem Movement Ruined a Generation. Although government-education policies directly affected only the last couple of generations, I think a lot of this goes back to the Baby Boomers as well. It also explains why people latch onto even the most minor causes and support them rabidly--to boost their own self-esteem.
For just a brief departure from the subject of the thread, I can recommend a book that explains much of the behavior that we see today, abetted by all-to-willing politicians who pander for votes. At least, I found it enlightening, and gave it four stars, but you may have read it already. The Snowflake Effect: How the Self-Esteem Movement Ruined a Generation. Although government-education policies directly affected only the last couple of generations, I think a lot of this goes back to the Baby Boomers as well. It also explains why people latch onto even the most minor causes and support them rabidly--to boost their own self-esteem.
Ken wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "Owen wrote: "I was reading things and viewing art in my teens that would seem to require (in the view of some) a "content warning" or "advisory" these days. No one blinked an eye the..."I haven't, but I'm well aware of the overall thesis. And I love to discuss & or tell stories on this topic, but will not do so here. Anyone who's ever interested (LOL!) may send me a message to get an earful, however. ;-)
R.F.G. wrote: "Owen wrote: "Back in the day I was taught you were assumed to be responsible for your actions once you hit the age of 12, and a person who wouldn't assume responsibility for her or his actions was mentally deficient or had some type of psychological disorder. "Wow I suddenly got nostalgic. :(
I have only come across it in ibooks. That one may be the only one I've seen, in fact, but I agree. It's shuddersome!
A lot of the young adult novels I read have advertisements in the back for other novels in the same genre. I guess that's the publishing company's way of pushing other books under their label. I have found a few new gems that way.I'm squeamish about the idea of ads for, oh say, a girl's toy from the Land of Enforced Gender Roles appearing in my books. Or any other type of ad except for ads for more books. I'm not sure if having a beef with advertisements in your books is considered biting the hand that feeds or not. But I do think that an author can be thankful for the things that help them sell more books, while still being critical of the thornier aspects of the publishing industry. Nothing's perfect, after all.
Mod
Cross promotion of other books has been an industry standard for years. But that's something that publishers do, not distributors. If I want to stick a teaser in for my next book or if I want to plug a friend's latest book, that's my choice.
If Amazon one day decided that they wanted to put an ad for someone else's book in the back of mine, I'm going to have an objection. They already advertise other books on my product page and some kindles are discounted because the feature a dynamic splash page on the device with ads, much like the old AOL browser back in the early dialup days.
If they decided to put an ad for a Samsung television smack in the middle of my book, well... I'm going go a little postal.
Christina wrote: "Cross promotion of other books has been an industry standard for years. But that's something that publishers do, not distributors. If I want to stick a teaser in for my next book or if I want to plug a friend's latest book, that's my choice..."What Christina said!
R.F.G. wrote: "I did the PBW as a mild protest. It was suggested that I ask the cover artist to blur out the nipples, which are shadowy at best..."I would have taken a picture of a real brown paper bag and inserted it over the cover, and then scrawled the title with magic marker along with "Brown Paper Bag Edition!"
I also would have then inserted the actual cover inside the eBook (maybe with the nipples in bright neon pink?) with note explaining why the cover was done that way.
Also...I can't see how it would be legal for a distributor to insert anything in your book.You have exclusive rights to its content and presentation. They can refuse to carry it, but they'd have a lawsuit on their hands if they actually altered the product.
I mean, that would literally be like Amazon opening up the box of something you bought...like maybe a TV set...and plastering ads onto the product.
Oh...and apps that have tons of ads in them get deleted from my tablets. I have a few where it opens an ad when you first launch the app, but once you click out of it they're gone. Some others (like weather apps) tuck them in a sidebar or at the bottom of the screen where nothing else useful is going on and I can ignore them.But some I've seen have ads that basically act like nag screens, popping up every now and then right where you want to see/do things. THAT doesn't fly. That's not an app, it's an ad portal.
Hmm...I should put that in a book: people watching ad channels on TV, and then getting pissed off when they're ads are interrupted by 5 min of programming every 15 min.
I'm also working on a project that will probably get rejected by iBooks. When that happens I'll have a new cover with "BANNED BY APPLE'S IBOOKS!" label on it. Like it's a great selling point.It will have ADULTS ONLY! on the cover anyway. Not that it's porn or anything. I mean, it's going to be graphic in all ways, but not specifically porn/erotica.
Should be fun.
Micah wrote: "Also...I can't see how it would be legal for a distributor to insert anything in your book.You have exclusive rights to its content and presentation. They can refuse to carry it, but they'd have ..."
You would have to (I think) sign an agreement with the distributor to allow that. But I'd worry that some distributor might change their TOS to say: "By using our service, you agree to..." and authors would not read the TOS carefully, and be surprised. I once dealt with a site that invited me to sell my work through them, and on reading their TOS, saw a clause that under unspecified circumstances, they could in return for a token payment (which could be as little as $25), claim all rights to my work, and do as they see fit. I questioned them on this and they responded they never did that, nor did they intended. So I asked why it was in there. They never responded.
It could be that some distributors have already done this. What does the iBooks TOS say? Does it allow them to do this sort of thing? Fiddling with the TOS has a long (and occasionally sordid) history. The legality is sometimes questionable, but it is rarely questioned. If people are not diligent, there can be problems.
Micah wrote: "I'm also working on a project that will probably get rejected by iBooks. When that happens I'll have a new cover with "BANNED BY APPLE'S IBOOKS!" label on it. Like it's a great selling point.It w..."
It might be. My co-author's fantasy novel finally got it's first shocked, SHOCKED! review by someone who didn't bother to read the first few pages. We foresee a sales increase now. (The dash of "protect the children!" outrage will probably also help.)
Vivienne wrote: "I have only come across it in ibooks. That one may be the only one I've seen, in fact, but I agree. It's shuddersome!"These ads were for books, but erotic books. Fine in other erotic books, but not in a howto book, nor any other non-erotic book for that matter. The publishers really should consider other people's sensibilities.
Owen wrote: "My co-author's fantasy novel finally got it's first shocked, SHOCKED! review by someone who didn't bother to read the first few pages..."That would make my year!
Seriously, people freaking out over a few F-bombs or a few naked bodies I find totally hilarious.
I want to write some stuff just to stir things up a bit. I mean, Hunter S. Thompson was right: things have just not gotten strange enough.
Mod
I have one that I can't get rid of because there really isn't a better option and I've outright begged to throw money at them for an ad free version. I noticed on the last update that the app (My Fitness Pal) is now cross branded with Under Armor. Why do I have a feeling only those who purchase their fitness device will have this option?
As for weather, I've all but given up on both apps and websites for the amount of invasive ads. I'll stick to the 'Look out the window and bring a sweater/umbrella/sunglasses' method.
Micah wrote: "Owen wrote: "My co-author's fantasy novel finally got it's first shocked, SHOCKED! review by someone who didn't bother to read the first few pages..."That would make my year!"
It took over a year. (Close to 18 months?) It's not unlike when I was on deviantArt years ago. A lot of my work was nudes, and you knew people were finally noticing you when someone screeched "PORN!" So now we feel her book finally getting somewhere.
BTW: it's an awesome review this person left. They said their "palette" was "tainted" and there this bit about "extol[ing] its lasciviousness." Could you buy that kind of negative advertising? :-)
Owen,I am looking at ad for "natures ingriedients for mens health" on the The Erl King's Children page on amazon. Right below it is the shocking review. Gave me a good laugh. People don't want ads they can't control in their books but anything goes on the advertisement page.
Robert wrote: "Owen,I am looking at ad for "natures ingriedients for mens health" on the The Erl King's Children page on amazon. Right below it is the shocking review. Gave me a good laugh..."
Hmmm.... "natures ingredients for mens health"? I keep getting "standout dresses." In these days of "all knowing ads" I hope that doesn't say something about me.
It definitely tracking things I look at. I have seen amazon gift card ads, bought some, aromatic therapy device ads, guilty by trying to find the cheapest how to knock out mold machines, and natures ingredients seems to have come from looking at sci fi books, microbes have inherited the earth, the meek shall inherit the earth, and space ship engines, and something else I can't remember. Now it's trying to sell me a pickup truck that can tow a bulldozer. Sounds like it back on to nature's ingredients again. Physically exceeded it's worth sounds worthy of ram truck. In the top right corner of the truck ad it says LEGAL, must be referring to the book :}
Robert wrote: "It definitely tracking things I look at. I have seen amazon gift card ads, bought some, aromatic therapy device ads, guilty by trying to find the cheapest how to knock out mold machines, and nature..."OK, I gotta do some recon here. Dresses and cleaning products is what keeps popping up. Given my browsing heavily involves history, literature and mil-sci-fi, not sure how that works.
I also use the browser as a spell checker which is probably like adding random thoughts to the mix.
Mod
I've also learned my lesson when it comes to clicking something for the 'fun' reviews. Amazon now emails me about ginormous televisions and sugar free snack foods. Thanks George Takei!
Rob wrote: "I thought I try out a little add campaign with Goodreads for one of my short stories just to see how this kind of thing works. Given that I had a few quite negative reactions to the story, After ha..."Organized religion and organized atheist offend them as much you possibly can lol. Kidding aside, I am going to say no I have not experienced that in regards to sales of any writing I have done. If you look at it from a business psychology point of view. That negative feedback might be the 'honey' that lures in the curious bear!
Details: I heard this from a marketing professional, that told me negative feedback will attract more people than positive. Long story short, she means people will want to know what makes this work so 'damn' bad?
In your case my friend, that negative feedback you got from that person you pissed off. You should thank him, his post will attract Christians, atheist, spiritual people and curious people to your short story. Hopefully ask you about writing more stories like it.
Hell my friend,my 2 cents. Keep the experiment going!
Christina wrote: "K.B. wrote: "A lot of the young adult novels I read have advertisements in the back for other novels in the same genre. I guess that's the publishing company's way of pushing other books under thei..."I hope this theoretical rampage involves a lot of broken televisions. ;-)
I hope I don't come across as a total Pollyanna--Amazon ended up giving me a pretty hard lesson in that. When I published my book, I imagined having links to other fractured fairy tales underneath my book. Instead, the first ad I had was for a sticker that said: WARNING: DRINKING ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES BEFORE PREGNANCY MAY CAUSE PREGNANCY.
I was not pleased, and less so when I clicked on that sticker and saw the suggested items list for it. I don't think crudeness is a substitute for wit, so I complained to the company and asked if they would take it down. I was informed that they didn't have the power to do that. It was apparently based of the algorithms of the browsing history of people who were searching for my book (at this stage, my friends and family). So I got the double-whammy of 1) worrying that I'd scare off potential readers because of a stupid ad and 2) being appalled by my friends' taste.
Mercifully, it's changed since then.
Mod
http://www.amazon.com/Avoiding-Sex-Fr...
Christina wrote: "I've also learned my lesson when it comes to clicking something for the 'fun' reviews. Amazon now emails me about ..."You can delete searched items in Amazon, but you have to do it one at a time. I think this stops things popping up you don't want. I browse a lot of books I'll never buy and have no interest in genre-wise because I'm doing research on books I find in the Top 100 lists. Afterward, I have to remember to go and delete them from my search history or else I end up getting recommended a lot of por...I mean erotica and other stuff I have no interest in.
Mod
All Amazon emails me about are these great Sci-Fi books I might be interested in, by Micah R. Sisk...hey, wait a minute...
If that is the cover that aforementioned had a problem with... good lord. Oh yes, the kiddies must be protected from that. Much better they watch the mayhem on the evening news. :-P