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Weekly TLS > What are we reading? 26/02/2024

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message 51: by AB76 (last edited Feb 29, 2024 12:46PM) (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments Of the series of revolutions and putschs that befell Germany in the wake of November 1918, the Munich revolution was an event i knew little about and the brilliant Munich 1919 by Victor Klemperer, a collection of his journalism from 1918-19 and his memories written in 1942 is a brilliant early work by the great diarist.

Into the Bavarian capital in late 1918, flooded various left minded demobbed soldiers and sailors, the working classes of the city were then regaled by a small group of non-Bavarian leftist leaders, who Klemperer describes as intellectuals leading a working class revolution. Over the next six months or so, the Bavarian Soviet bungled and mumbled its way to an inevitable showdown with the German Social Democratic government and its para-military Freikorps units.

In the last 2 months of the Bavarian Soviet, as the Frekorps battled the "Reds", the seeds of future polarisation of German politics were sown. It was not a right wing government brutally putting down the Reds but under their orders the sinister right wing Freikorps were stacked with future Nazi's. current and future Nazi hitmen and Von Epp, the commander of the Bavarian Freikorps, who later cleansed Bavaria of its Jews and Roma under Hitler Klemperer observes a strong thread of anti-semitism and the fact that most of rural conservative Bavaria loathed the left wing and were happy to see the "Republic" fall.

Klemperer observes events in a wry, witty way in his pieces for a Leipzig newspaper but his recollections in 1942 are sadder and more measured. By then the many faces and voices of the fighting right-wing in 1919, were ruling Germany and murdering their opponents with relish.

A curious footnote is that at the funeral of the first leader of the Republic, Kurt Eisner(killed by a right wing student),. Adolf Hitler was present with a badge on his arm showing sympathy for the Reds. This was a few months before the Republic fell, rumour has it that when Hitler saw the wind change, he switched towards the right....i must explore the facts a bit more..


message 52: by giveusaclue (last edited Feb 29, 2024 02:18PM) (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments MK wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Back at the hospital today and delighted to say that I am now able to drive again. That means there will probably be less reading going o..."

Absolutely. The surgeon politely said the the hip should "see me out!"


message 53: by [deleted user] (new)

The Dud Avocado – Elaine Dundy (1958)

This was fairly amusing, the rattling tale of a bright, breathless, American ex-college girl who thanks to a monthly allowance from a generous uncle is on the loose in 1950s Paris, the cosmopolitan Paris of foreign visitors, hotel bars, galleries and nightclubs. She takes minor acting roles, and in her love life gets into one tangle after another. The middle section in St Jean de Luz is done as a journal, and that is how the whole thing feels, like a juiced-up but still insubstantial journal – until you come to the final part, which has the most splendid hook and twist.


message 54: by [deleted user] (new)

Tam wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Tam wrote: "Some artists evolved a late style because their eye sight was failing, Monet, Turner, with cataracts, I'm not quite sure how much the artists were aware of the change in their perception..."

I don’t recall ever being aware that Constable had a late style, but today I happened to come across a reference to that in an old NYRB:

“There had always been an elegiac quality in Constable’s work, a nostalgic longing for the orderly world he remembered. But there’s a more palpable sense of loss in his later paintings, and a gothic turn in the mood as trees and clouds (always Constable’s true subjects) increasingly overwhelm the human presence….”

In his case it sounds more like an evolution of attitude than a deterioration of eyesight.

There also seems to have been a recent exhibition on Late Constable at the Royal Academy, as what looks like a catalogue with that title is one of the books reviewed.


message 55: by Gpfr (last edited Feb 29, 2024 11:53PM) (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
Russell wrote: " 'a gothic turn in the mood as trees and clouds (always Constable’s true subjects) increasingly overwhelm the human presence' ….” ..."

Constable Entre ciel et terre by Pierre Wat I've got a book by Pierre Wat Constable: Entre ciel et terre, where there are reproductions of paintings with marvellous skies. Between 1821 and 1822 there are over 100 studies of the sky and in later paintings there are splendid skies and clouds.
One of the works reproduced is a watercolour from the Victoria & Albert, "View at Hapstead, looking towards London:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1...


message 56: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
Russell wrote: "The Dud Avocado – Elaine Dundy (1958)..."

I finally read this some time ago, having heard of it for years and prompted by a Backlisted podcast, but was rather disappointed. I don't really have anything to add to your summing-up :)


message 57: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
Absent Friends. This is the 8th book in Gillian Linscott's Nell Bray series — and the 1st one I've read.

It's the end of 1918 and the first general election where women were able to vote. 17 women were candidates and in this book, Nell Bray, suffragette, is an 18th. She has difficulty in finding a constituency until a newly widowed woman offers to fund her in return for her investigating her husband's death.

This was an enjoyable read. Those who like Frances Brody's Kate Shackleton books should enjoy it too.


message 58: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments Gpfr wrote: "Absent Friends. This is the 8th book in Gillian Linscott's Nell Bray series — and the 1st one I've read.

It's the end of 1918 and the first general election where women were able to ..."


are you on a crime spree Gp?


message 59: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
AB76 wrote: "are you on a crime spree Gp? ..."

I wouldn't exactly say that — I always read a lot of crime novels + lots of other types of books :)


message 60: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "are you on a crime spree Gp? ..."

I wouldn't exactly say that — I always read a lot of crime novels + lots of other types of books :)"


ah ok. i have a Ross Macdonald from that new penguin range lined up for later in 2024, i enjoyed his wife's crime novel last year set in wintry Michigan


message 61: by Tam (new)

Tam Dougan (tamdougan) | 1107 comments Russell wrote: "Tam wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Tam wrote: "Some artists evolved a late style because their eye sight was failing, Monet, Turner, with cataracts, I'm not quite sure how much the artists were aware ..."

The Constables persevered in Brighton for five years to aid Maria’s health, but to no avail.[51] After the birth of their seventh child in January 1828, they returned to Hampstead where Maria died on 23 November at the age of 41.[52] Intensely saddened, Constable wrote to his brother Golding, "hourly do I feel the loss of my departed Angel—God only knows how my children will be brought up...the face of the World is totally changed to me".[53]

If there was a change it probably had more to do with having lived in Brighton, which he hated, in order to benefit his tubercular wife, (he called it Piccadilly!) to no avail, she died 12 years before him and he felt the loss severely. So he possibly turned back to emphasising nature as a form of solace?...

Thereafter, he dressed in black and was, according to Leslie, "a prey to melancholy and anxious thoughts". He cared for his seven children alone for the rest of his life.


message 62: by [deleted user] (new)

Gpfr wrote: "Russell wrote: " 'a gothic turn in the mood...'” I've got a book by Pierre Wat Constable: Entre ciel et terre, ..."

That book does sound very enticing, and the View at Hampstead is dramatic – all sky, no humans.


message 63: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments AB76 wrote: "the Bavarian Soviet bungled and mumbled its way to an inevitable showdown with the German Social Democratic government and its para-military Freikorps units...."

As you know, I am not a historian - my knowledge of the Freikorps is very limited, and just about all I knew was that they were a right wing group who were eventually destroyed by Hitler following the assassination of Röhm, as he saw them as in competition with his own Nazi groups which he controlled more directly.

What I didn't know, or realise, was that 'Freikorps' had a much longer history than the Nazi party, apparently being a loose name for many paramilitary or mercenary groups from the 18th C onwards - and they were not just Germans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freikorps

(I expect you - and others here - knew all this, but I didn't. It sounds a bit like the worrying paramilitary groups they have in the USA nowadays - the 'Proud Boys' etc. - which seem to me to be linked to the notion that citizens can bear arms in order to oppose the federal government, if 'necessary'....).

Liz Truss's bonkers claim that her period as PM failed because of a plot by the 'deep state' and other well-known Marxist cells such as the Financial Times and the Bank of England makes me wonder how far behind the UK is in this insanity...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/...


message 64: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments giveusaclue wrote: ".The surgeon politely said the the hip should "see me out!"

How nice to have such a tactful specialist!


message 65: by [deleted user] (new)

Tam wrote: "The Constables persevered in Brighton for five years to aid Maria’s health, but to no avail...Thereafter, he dressed in black and was, according to Leslie, "a prey to melancholy and anxious thoughts". He cared for his seven children alone for the rest of his life"

Thanks, Tam. That explains a lot. I was taking a look at Leslie as well (I have a copy in the lovely old Phaidon paperback series) and I found this sad passage in a letter of 16th August 1833: “I can hardly write for looking at the silvery clouds; how I sigh for that peace (to paint them) which this world cannot give (to me at least).” In another letter, of 15th December 1834, he says: “Every gleam of sunshine is withdrawn from me, in the art, at least. Can it wondered at, then, that I paint continual storms.” But in another letter, of 8th April 1835, he speaks with pleasure of his painting Willy Lott’s House: “I have got my picture in a very beautiful state; I have kept my brightness without my spottiness, and I have preserved God Almighty’s daylight, which is enjoyed by all mankind…”


message 66: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments AB76 wrote: "i have a Ross Macdonald from that new penguin range lined up..."

As you may have noticed, I've been binge reading Macdonald recently - as well as a biography. I was not aware of a 'new penguin range', but he certainly deserves it, being as good as Chandler and better than Hammett - IMO, of course. More on him later.


message 67: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments Somewhere in the morning's reading, I came across the term 'coffin dodger', and it came to me in a flash that maybe 'codger' - a term I sarcastically apply to myself - might be a contraction of this.

So I looked it up... as this is strictly a 'words' issue, I'll post my discoveries in that section!


message 68: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i have a Ross Macdonald from that new penguin range lined up..."

I was not aware of a 'new penguin range'..."


Penguin Modern Classics - Crime & Espionage:
https://www.penguin.co.uk/series/PNGC...

I've posted about 2 of them, Game Without Rules and Sleeping Dog.


message 69: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the Bavarian Soviet bungled and mumbled its way to an inevitable showdown with the German Social Democratic government and its para-military Freikorps units...."

As you know, I am not..."


its amazing how popular the right wing military themed groups were after the collapse of Germany in WW1. the seeds of this were already germinating in the military culture of Wilhlemine Germany but without the cruelty and racism of the Nazi period.

I guess it depends on the difference between people who are right wing conservative military men and people were right wing rabble rousers intent on eliminating things they disliked, which two threads in some ways merged into becoming the Nazi party in 1933.

I do wonder what the hundreds of cruel Nazi functionaries would have done with their lives if the whole Nazi thing hadnt happened, i would like to have said a life of crime but the alarming thing is very few led criminal lives before 1933, even a lot of the camp thugs were conventional people before the abyss, which is a very worrying thing


message 70: by scarletnoir (last edited Mar 01, 2024 08:16AM) (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments Gpfr wrote: "I've posted about 2 of them, Game Without Rules and Sleeping Dog."

Thanks - I misunderstood the post to mean that ALL the Macdonald/Archer books were being reprinted. In fact, the two listed in this Penguin series were the first I read - in 2022 - and are not among his best (plot wise - his style is always good) so that I hesitated to read more until seeing praise in another forum where I lurk and occasionally comment.

As for the two you've read - I recently saw the blurb for 'Game without rules' (I was undecided) but hadn't seen the one for 'Sleeping dog' - I wonder if that in any way influenced/inspired Mark Haddon's The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, or if both derived directly from Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes story The Adventure of Silver Blaze, where the notion of something that didn't happen (no barking) was a crucial clue.


message 71: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments AB76 wrote: " (1) people were right wing rabble rousers intent on eliminating things they disliked, which two threads in some ways merged into becoming the Nazi party in 1933....

(2) I do wonder what the hundreds of cruel Nazi functionaries would have done with their lives if the whole Nazi thing hadnt happened... even a lot of the camp thugs were conventional people before the abyss, which is a very worrying thing."


1. Indeed - things like peaceful protest and votes they don't agree with, nowadays.

2. Reminds me of that psychology experiment where one lot were 'prisoners' and the others were 'warders', and what the warders were willing to do if 'they were only obeying orders'.
https://exhibits.stanford.edu/spe


message 72: by AB76 (last edited Mar 01, 2024 09:12AM) (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: " (1) people were right wing rabble rousers intent on eliminating things they disliked, which two threads in some ways merged into becoming the Nazi party in 1933....

(2) I do wonder w..."


i think on a very basic level, removing the quite reasonably emotive nazi link and there is an unpleasent part of human nature where maladjusted people abuse people who they see as "below" them. a family pet maybe, a servant, an employee, at various levels of severity

i havent been able to read anything comprehensive on concentration camp staff but it does seem they were picked from mostly working class backgrounds and were not voluntarily applying for their tasks, the de-humanising normality of ritual abuse and killing probably comes from behaviour breeding behaviour, lack of self esteem, boredom etc, normalisation of extreme violence

i tried to do some cross analysis of camp guards records on a website, it was very slow and didnt tell me much except a sizeable number of camp staff were "volksdeutsch" from areas where Germans had been outside the Reich since WW1. Prior jobs as stated before employment in the camps was pretty normal, reliable, respctable professions accross the spectrum

a detailed study of the camp guards, male and female, objective and fair, would be good to read


message 73: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments For the first time, i am going to subscribe to the TLS and see how it goes. I occasionally pick up a copy but in last 6 months, there is never a copy in my local WH Smiths

I started subbing to the NYRB in 2007 and LRB about a decade later, with flirtations with n+1 on and off. I find the LRB can barely cover a fortnight of reading for me which is a shame and the NYRB has been shrinking but both are very good

The TLS is a Murdoch stable paper though and that is a negative, the LRB formed from ex-TLS staff when the foul Aussie took over The Times with help from Thatcher, Lets see how it goes...


message 74: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: ".The surgeon politely said the the hip should "see me out!"

How nice to have such a tactful specialist!"


He is the one who say padding rather than fat!!


message 75: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments AB76 wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the Bavarian Soviet bungled and mumbled its way to an inevitable showdown with the German Social Democratic government and its para-military Freikorps units...."

A..."


I wonder how much difference there is between left and right wing militants?


message 76: by AB76 (last edited Mar 01, 2024 12:59PM) (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the Bavarian Soviet bungled and mumbled its way to an inevitable showdown with the German Social Democratic government and its para-military Freikorps ..."

not a lot in my opinion, ideology might be stronger on the left but if killing people is part of any idealogy, its bankrupt at birth

the troubles in northern ireland highlighted to me a distinct difference though between the Protestant militants and the catholic ones. On the catholic side, working class young men were drawn into the movement by despair and arguably a majority believed in a cause On the protestant side, it was working class young men again but there seemed a psychotic sadism to their violence and their cause always seemed a kind of defensive lashing out, based on fear.


message 77: by Tam (new)

Tam Dougan (tamdougan) | 1107 comments This is for AB and for Paul, for when he occasionally visits. As both of them were discussing, a few weeks back, whether they would read 'The Catcher in the Rye' again, as it was a formative book from their teenage years. Well it was for me also. So, I have been there, and done that, and this is what I found... Anyone else is welcome to take a look as well, but, warning it might contain spoilers, so not for anyone who still wants to read it afresh, I think https://jediperson.wordpress.com/2024...


message 78: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments Tam wrote: "This is for AB and for Paul, for when he occasionally visits. As both of them were discussing, a few weeks back, whether they would read 'The Catcher in the Rye' again, as it was a formative book f..."

thanks Tam

i remember it being a favourite of two very straight laced friends of my parents and it made me wonder how rebellious they may have been as teenagers, werent we all..lol


message 79: by Robert (new)

Robert Rudolph | 466 comments Gpfr wrote: "Some cheering spring flowers.
The photographer, Robert Doisneau, lived in the building on the left in the background. The little park is called Square Robert Doisneau.

"

Very nice. Thanks.


message 80: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments AB76 wrote: "i think on a very basic level... there is an unpleasant part of human nature where maladjusted people abuse people who they see as "below" them. a family pet maybe, a servant, an employee, at various levels of severity"

I completely agree: the big boss criticises the middle manager, who criticises a minion, who goes home and either beats his wife or children, or kicks the dog...

IMO, exactly the same basic - or base - impulse lies behind racism and many other irrationally held positions such as misogyny - that 'you' are superior to 'them', not because of any positive character trait or higher intelligence, but just 'because'.

It's a nasty and stupid way to be. There are too many people like that.


message 81: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments giveusaclue wrote: "I wonder how much difference there is between left and right wing militants?"

Not a lot.

What is worrying is when supposedly mainstream politicians start spouting crazy conspiracy theories to stir up the mob. Trump's 'stolen election' is the most extreme and obvious recent example, but Truss and her 'deep state... including the Bank of England and Financial Times' is certainly no further behind in its extremism and absurdity.


message 82: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments AB76 wrote: "the troubles in northern ireland highlighted to me a distinct difference though between the Protestant militants and the catholic ones."

I don't think that's a defensible position.

I lived in Northern Ireland during the most murderous years (1971-74) and don't believe you could fit a piece of paper between the obnoxious 'behaviours' of the various branches of the IRA and the paramilitary protestant groups (UVF, UFF, UDA etc.)in terms of bombing innocent civilians, and murder of suspected informants. Judge people by what they do, not what they say they are trying to achieve.

The pity is - the whole business kicked off after the wholly justified Civil Rights marches of the late '60s - where a small number of left-wing Protestants joined Catholics - were attacked and violently suppressed by 'traditional' Protestant groups (no doubt inspired by the Orange Order). This led to a polarisation, so you 'had to be' either a Protestant or a Catholic - apart from the small, non-sectarian Alliance Party.

The worst example of all, though, occurred in Derry/Londonderry on 30 January 1972, when the British Army shot and killed 26 unarmed civilians. I went to the demonstration in Derry which followed... the flats in the tower blocks were all flying black flags - a memorable and eerie sight. I doubt anyone would have refused to fly a flag even if they didn't support the IRA (or its methods).

Things went rapidly downhill after that...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of....


message 83: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the troubles in northern ireland highlighted to me a distinct difference though between the Protestant militants and the catholic ones."

I don't think that's a defensible position.

I..."


From this side of the Irish Sea and in a position of not knowing as much about it as you did, I used to wonder how often many of the extremists on either side went to church or what they thought Christ would have thought about it.


message 84: by AB76 (last edited Mar 02, 2024 07:54AM) (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments Am enjoying The Amur River by Colin Thubron, i read all of his Russia related travel books about 15 years ago and then lost interest in the rest of his work. As i'm interested in the middle east, i started his book on Lebanon last year but was bored within a few pages, as he wittered on about long dead civilisations and i wanted to know about 1960s Lebanon

This book is far better and focused on past and present, currently he is amid the Buriats of Eastern Mongolia he recalls the violent Stalinist repressions of those people and Mongolias position as a soviet satellite. He also finds that the Mongols have no problems with the Russians but loathe the chinese and suspect the Chinese of having designs on Mongolia. A historal emnity of 300 years i suppose is hard to shrug off

Poor Thubron has had a nightmare with his health in the books so far, he was his 80th year, a few falls, damaged ribs, ankle issues and lots of pain


message 85: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
AB76 wrote: "Am enjoying The Amur River by Colin Thubron ..."

I enjoyed it too — read it last year.


message 86: by Gpfr (last edited Mar 02, 2024 10:48AM) (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
Further to the talk of Ireland and the Troubles, I've just read an article in the latest issue of Slightly Foxed about a book called Prenez Garde by Terence de Vere White (1961).

It's narrated by a 9-year-old boy from an Anglo-Irish family living near Dublin. As the book begins, their community "has yet to experience the Troubles at first hand but views the future with foreboding".

"There are obvious parallels here with ... The Go-Between though (its) political dimension makes it far more than an imitation."

Apparently there is tension but also humour. It sounds as if it might be a good read.


message 87: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments Gpfr wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Am enjoying The Amur River by Colin Thubron ..."

I enjoyed it too — read it last year."


i know a girl from that region, so its always been of interest to me, she was from Blagovenschensk (City of the Annunciation), lives in UK now


message 88: by AB76 (last edited Mar 02, 2024 12:45PM) (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments Its very sad for me to contemplate what has happened to twoex-colonial cities where western writers brought its heyday to life

Alexandria in the 1930s and early 1940s was vividly captured by Larry Durrell in his Alexandria Quartet. This city of around 680,000 people of which roughly 20% were non Arab and non Muslim was a beacon of culture on the fringes of the African coast, one of many quite large colonial ports, all cosmopoliton and fascinating. Now it languishes as a dirty, overpopulated backwater with barely 0.5% of its non-arab population remaining

Tangiers in the late 1940s to 1950s inspired the writing of Paul Bowles, he wrote three novels of Morrocco with Let It Come Down as the key Tangiers setpiece. This international zone city was smaller but probably more cosmpolitan than Alexandria even. Bowles lived there beyond the heyday and wrote some sad late pieces of journalism on the religious police, the silent streets and the corruption that followed Morroccon rule.

While colonialism is not a good thing, one looks at so many great colonial cities, mixing points for races and culture and what they have become, tired, poverty stricken, homogenous monuments to chauvinism...very sad


message 89: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments giveusaclue wrote: ".I used to wonder how often many of the extremists on either side went to church or what they thought Christ would have thought about it."

I doubt that the activists were that bothered, and of course there were religious leaders on both sides who actually stirred things up - or even participated in violence - as well as others who attempted to calm the waters.

The Catholic/Protestant divide was more historical and cultural than anything, I think.... (pauses for quick check on Wikipedia)... I had thought that the concentration of Protestants in N. Ireland was down to the 'Plantations':

The Plantation of Ulster (Irish: Plandáil Uladh; Ulster Scots: Plantin o Ulstèr[1]) was the organised colonisation (plantation) of Ulster – a province of Ireland – by people from Great Britain during the reign of King James VI and I. Most of the settlers (or planters) came from southern Scotland and northern England; their culture differed from that of the native Irish. Small privately funded plantations by wealthy landowners began in 1606,[2][3][4] while the official plantation began in 1609. Most of the land had been confiscated from the native Gaelic chiefs, several of whom had fled Ireland for mainland Europe in 1607 following the Nine Years' War against English rule. The official plantation comprised an estimated half a million acres (2,000 km2) of arable land in counties Armagh, Cavan, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Donegal, and Londonderry.[5] Land in counties Antrim, Down, and Monaghan was privately colonised with the king's support.[2][3][4]

but history is rarely simple or straightforward, which is why we need to be careful with a single historian's view of anything. This 'fact' is disputed:

The legacy of the Plantation remains disputed. According to one interpretation, it created a society segregated between native Catholics and settler Protestants in Ulster and created a Protestant and British concentration in north-east Ireland. This argument therefore sees the Plantation as one of the long-term causes of the Partition of Ireland in 1921, as the north-east remained as part of the United Kingdom in Northern Ireland.[76]

The densest Protestant settlement took place in the eastern counties of Antrim and Down, which were not part of the Plantation, whereas Donegal, in the west, was planted but did not become part of Northern Ireland.[77]

Therefore, it is also argued that the Plantation itself was less important in the distinctiveness of the north-east of Ireland than natural population flow between Ulster and Scotland. A. T. Q. Stewart, a protestant from Belfast, concluded: "The distinctive Ulster-Scottish culture, isolated from the mainstream of Catholic and Gaelic culture, would appear to have been created not by the specific and artificial plantation of the early seventeenth century, but by the continuous natural influx of Scottish settlers both before and after that episode ...."[78]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantat...

So as usual, you can choose whichever version of 'history' you prefer!


message 90: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
Further to talk of Ireland, Scottish settlers etc :
In S.G. / Shona MacLean's excellent Alexander Seaton series, mostly set in Scotland in the early 17th century, there's one book where the hero goes to Ulster, sent for by his dead mother's family.
Just reminded myself of the title: A Game of Sorrows. It's the second in the series of 4.


message 91: by AB76 (last edited Mar 03, 2024 01:38AM) (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: ".I used to wonder how often many of the extremists on either side went to church or what they thought Christ would have thought about it."

I doubt that the activists were that ..."


i read a very good book on the plantations that made the point that the Ulster culture even before and during the plantations and the Norman invasions, was distinct from the rest of Ireland. Not religiously but in behaviour and culture

the book did cover the plantation system you mention scarlet, it was very specific on two different elements of plantation which i now forget but it might have been a difference between the "guilds" which supported and funded plantation, one was based around the city of london for funds i think, which may explain the querying of plantation outside Antrim and Down

Fermanagh is a very interesting oddity in that it is the only county in Ulster that was majority Church of Ireland , rather than Presbyterian and remains so among Fermanagh Protestants to this day. Even more interesting is that apparently a lot of these settlers were orginally Border Reivers from Scotland from a godless area where the reformation had not penetrated. It seems in the early 17thc, barely a church or temple was erected in Fermanagh by the Reivers. As it became politically expedient to adhere to the state church, they became Church of Ireland, a political decision more than a religious one

For clarity Presbyterians were scottish protestants, with a non-comformist approach to worship, without a episcopal hierarchy and a system of lay elders to administer the faith. Church of Ireland were Anglican and apart from the Fermanagh Scots, were English or Welsh in origin in Ulster


message 92: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
For those who liked Peter May's Lewis trilogy, a 4th book is coming out later this year: The Black Loch.


message 93: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments scarletnoir wrote: "So as usual, you can choose whichever version of 'history' you prefer!"

Nail on head. And people have a tendency to believe what they want to believe


message 94: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments Gpfr wrote: "For those who liked Peter May's Lewis trilogy, a 4th book is coming out later this year: The Black Loch."

Goody


message 95: by [deleted user] (new)

Thanks for the discussion on the history of plantation. I knew about it but not in that detail.

What's up with The G? The WWR for Feb came out on Thursday and already today it's closed for comments.


message 96: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments Russell wrote: "Thanks for the discussion on the history of plantation. I knew about it but not in that detail.

What's up with The G? The WWR for Feb came out on Thursday and already today it's closed for comments."


How long have you got?


message 97: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6957 comments I have just finished The Backstreets by Perhat Tursun The Backstreets by Perhat Tursun,a novel by a Uygher who has been in detention at the hands of the chinese for a few years now

Its a short 135page novel but it took me a while to read it due to the precise mix of an introspective, expressionist style.Without much of a plot,alienation and the big city are strong themes,alongside being a Uygher in a Han Chinese city. His other characters are almost like sickly ghouls around which the narrator must navigate

i recommend this is a work of literature by a people who are being "corrected" by the Han Chinese and slowly beaten down to conform.Xinjang, where the Uyghers live is the only Chinese province without a Han Chinese majority but it can only be a matter of time,with so many Uyghers removed from normal life


message 98: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6692 comments Mod
Russell wrote: "What's up with The G? The WWR for Feb came out on Thursday and already today it's closed for comments."

And what's even stranger is that comments are still open under last month's.


message 99: by Tam (new)

Tam Dougan (tamdougan) | 1107 comments scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: ".I used to wonder how often many of the extremists on either side went to church or what they thought Christ would have thought about it."

I doubt that the activists were that ..."


There is still a large connection, and toing and froing between N Ireland and Scotland. My large protestant family, who originally 'settled' near Banbridge, and live mostly around Co Down, came from Ayrshire, in the 'plantation' era. Many of those from my generation are now living in Scotland, and quite a few of them are now back in Ayrshire.

The other factor of course, across all of Ireland, and both religions, is that many immigrated, generations ago, across the 'British Empire' and so I have numerous distant cousins living in Canada, the US, New Zealand, and Australia. And a few got to more exotic places, like China... and Norway!.. Perhaps reclaiming some 'Viking' heritage?...


message 100: by [deleted user] (new)

Gpfr wrote: "Russell wrote: "What's up with The G? The WWR for Feb came out on Thursday and already today it's closed for comments."

And what's even stranger is that comments are still open under last month's."


Good spot. I bet they closed the wrong one by mistake. Let's see if Feb's reopens.


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