With No Crying by Celia Fremlin (May 2024)

[Susan]

Some of us are continuing to read the backlog of Celia Fremin's novels and the dates for those books remaining are:

1980 – With No Crying (May)
1982 – The Parasite Person (August)
1990 – Listening in the Dusk (November)
1991 – Dangerous Thoughts (Feb 25)
1993 – The Echoing Stones (May 25)
1994 – King of the World (Aug 25)

Our May 24 read is the first in this list. Celia Fremlin's With No Crying was first published in 1980.

With No Crying (1980), Celia Fremlin's eleventh novel, tells of Miranda, a daydreaming fifteen-year-old schoolgirl who has encouraged a boy to seduce her and is glad to find herself pregnant, but then bitterly resentful when her parents talk her into an abortion. She pads up her stomach, runs away from home, and finds refuge in a squat where her new housemates await the newborn keenly. How, though, can Miranda save face?

[Roman Clodia]

Thanks for setting up the thread, Susan - I've added this to our bookshelf - just look at this glorious cover, so much better than the dull Faber:

[Susan_MG]

I’m looking forward to continuing with Celia Fremlin. My online used bookseller will be happy too.

[Susan]

Thanks, both. I was at school in 1980 and I remember lots of press coverage about teenage pregnancies at the time. It was a big news story at the time, so Fremlin was writing on a very contemporary theme.

[Susan]

I intend to start this, this weekend. Have been really busy, so little reading time, but I am looking forward to another Fremlin.

[Roman Clodia]

Susan wrote: "I intend to start this, this weekend. Have been really busy, so little reading time, but I am looking forward to another Fremlin."

My exact thoughts, Susan!

[Susan]

This was published in 1980 and the story reminds me so much of my time in school (I left school in 1982). Everything in the news and in day to day gossip seemed at the time to revolve around teenage pregnancy. I think it was around then that girls at my school were openly saying they wanted to get pregnant in order to get a council flat, which didn't seem particularly appealing to me, to be honest! I also recall vividly being at college to do my A Levels and running into two girls from my school who had prams. They were shocking encounters, one girl even commenting, 'Isn't it ugly?' about her own baby. I also remember reading a book of short stories about teens, one of which was about a teenage pregnancy, comparing the baby to a jellybean, which Miranda - the teen in this book - also does. This really has a sense of those confused, strange times. I am unsure, just yet, what I think of it, but I definitely think it would have been very relevant at the time when it was published.

[Roman Clodia]

Not the 1980s but I also remember my shock at a girl getting pregnant in my year when we must have only been about 14 - as a late developer I was still pretty childlike both mentally and physically and just couldn't get my head around this.

I'm going to Kew this morning so hope to make a start this afternoon.

[Susan]

Lovely, RC. Will be beautiful in the Spring sunshine :) Enjoy.

[Hester]

Much to Young by the Specials could be the beginning of a playlist to listen to while reading ? It did catch the mood of the times .

[Nigeyb]

Too Much Too Young 🤠


#pedantic

[Susan]

Definitely. I never really liked Eighties music at the time, being utterly obsessed with the Beatles, but I do recall the Specials, Madness and all the other bands at the time.

Billy Bragg too -
I was twenty-one years when I wrote this song
I'm twenty-two now, but I won't be for long
People ask when will you grow up to be a man
But all the girls I loved at school are already pushing prams

[Roman Clodia]

Susan wrote: "Lovely, RC. Will be beautiful in the Spring sunshine :) Enjoy."

Gorgeous indeed with the tulip field and the new sculptures.

On teenage pregnancy, I guess even in the 1980s it was perhaps harder to get contraception as a teenager?

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Susan wrote: "Definitely. I never really liked Eighties music at the time, being utterly obsessed with the Beatles, but I do recall the Specials, Madness and all the other bands at the time.

Billy Bragg too - ..."

Several things interesting abut that post.
This is from Paul Simon in 1965
"Leaves That Are Green"

I was twenty-one years when I wrote this song.
Im twenty-two now but I wont be for long
Time hurries on.
And the leaves that are green turn to brown,
And they wither with the wind,
And they crumble in your hand.


Not so much about teen pregnancies, but it was certainly a major topic of the 80's. In the US much tied to debates about both making contraceptives more available, and the teaching of Sex Ed.

Does it help any that Paul Simon and the various members of the Beatles were making music, throughout the 80's and among the living, still are making music?

[Susan]

You could get contraceptives in the 1980's easily, RC. I met my husband in 1982 when I was 16 but my mother did ban me going to school discos, and reading the beginning of this novel I can see why!

Yes, the Bragg song was obviously a nod to Paul Simon.

[SueLucie]

I could get the pill easily in 1974 when I had turned 18 and made a doctor appointment on my own.

[Jill]

There were plenty of Family Planning Clinics about

The 1974 reorganisation of the NHS formally incorporated family planning services into the NHS and from 1 April, all contraceptive advice and supplies provided by the NHS were free of charge regardless of age or marital status.

[Susan]

Yes, I went to a clinic and was given advice and free contraceptives. I didn't want to go on the pill and they were very good about suggesting alternatives.

I have finished this now. I worked out the twist early on, but overall thought it was very readable and very evocative of the time.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

This is now a very minor point and I am going to grant I was depending on a memory that tends to blur decades.
Worth a quick look:
The American Experience A Timeline of Contraception
Such that they are, my comments only spoke to the US.

[Roman Clodia]

Thanks, everyone for the information on 1980s contraception, especially Jill's about free advice and supplies regardless of age.

[Susan]

You are making us feel old, RC!

[Roman Clodia]

Haha, no! As usual, I'm showcasing my own ignorance 🤭

[Susan]

Not at all. The names also made me remember how many Sharon's, Sandra's and, indeed, Susan's, we had in my class at school then.

[Jill]

I finished and didn't think it was one of Fremlin's better books. I couldn't believe the housemates were so gullible, especially the trainee doctor.

[Roman Clodia]

*What* an interesting start - Fremlin always knows how to intrigue!

[Roman Clodia]

Interesting about Miranda's 'upper school' privileges: we didn't get coffee and private study periods till 6th form, two years later than Miranda who's working for O levels.

That might contribute to her feeling older than she is, having more freedom and self-responsibility at school. I can remember the excitement of not having to wear uniform in 6th form and having a common-room to ourselves.

[SueLucie]

Just beginning this now. Sounds intriguing.

[Roman Clodia]

I'm loving this - it brings back all the excruciating behavior of teenagers. The scene at the school disco? That was me!

[Roman Clodia]

Susan wrote: "I met my husband in 1982 when I was 16"

Aw, so were you together from then? That's lovely! 💕

[Roman Clodia]

Roman Clodia wrote: "The scene at the school disco? That was me!"

Er... I meant the scene where she's face to face with the boy and is completely tongue-tied - NOT what happens after! 😳

[Susan]

Ha ha! Yes, the second half of that scene was just SO believable though. I knew many girls who had similar experiences.

[Roman Clodia]

Jill wrote: "I finished and didn't think it was one of Fremlin's better books. I couldn't believe the housemates were so gullible, especially the trainee doctor."

Hmm, yes, I'm also finding Tim hard to credit. Miranda's parents were portrayed in an interesting way. I can see Miranda wanting to be the centre of attention but the plot is losing credibility for me at the moment and I can't get over the fact she's still only 14.

[Susan]

I totally see what Jill means, but I did find this one just galloped along, despite the flaws.

[Roman Clodia]

I agree that Fremlin's writing carries us along... but once my inner critic has raised its head, it's hard to ignore. (view spoiler)[I've got a suspicious eye on that Iris... (hide spoiler)]

[Roman Clodia]

I would have loved more of Miranda at school - and the nostalgia of adolescence.

[Brian E]

Favorite character - Janine, the 'helpful' neighbor.
My review - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Roman Clodia]

Finished - and 3-stars from me. There's so much good stuff here but I didn't feel like Fremlin manages to unify it all in a coherent way. I believed in Miranda at school but less so in the squat - and had a harder time with Tim and Iris.

Then 'Miss X', the attempts at misdirection and the ending failed to land for me.

It's a shame as there's good stuff here: the observations on the Fields and Janine were so good but I felt like the parts were better than the whole.

[SueLucie]

I agree, RC. I didn’t feel the sinister tension I have come to expect from Fremlin in this one. School scenes great, the squat not so much.

[Roman Clodia]

Is anyone still reading or planning to read this? If not, we can talk spoilers.

[Susan]

Happy for spoilers, but willing to wait if people haven't finished.

[Nigeyb]

It looks as though everyone has finished


I'd say you're safe RC - go for it



Spoilers from here on

[Roman Clodia]

Spoilers below

I felt like Fremlin was having to shoehorn in a sinister plot here where usually the creepiness seems to emerge naturally.

We've mentioned Tim already, almost a doctor and can't tell the difference between a nine-month pregnancy and a cushion... which sometimes shifts around! Also, Iris' thoughts on how she saw through the fake pregnancy (Miranda not moving, walking, standing, sitting like a pregnant woman) make it even more unbelievable.

What did everyone think about the 'Miss X' technique and Mrs Field? It all seemed quite clumsy to me and didn't make much sense: stealing a baby because your teenager is in a strop?

And the end felt like things were far too easily resolved.

I can see how this picks up on previous themes including the hopeless father but this might have worked better if Miranda hadn't run away.

[Susan]

After realising, pretty quickly, that Miranda had not stolen the baby I immediately guessed it was her mother. I don't think it was because her daughter was in a strop, but because she was mourning both the loss of her daughter and her possible grandchild. Even though she knew she was doing the right thing for her daughter, which proved to be the case, her son had run off travelling, she had lost that relationship with her daughter, she was lost and upset. Remember that Fremlin's own daughter killed herself and I was thinking more of that, than the storyline. It's like reading Frankenstein and knowing Mary Shelley is being dragged around Europe, losing her children, and knowing what the book is really about.

However, mainly, I felt it was just a novel which was inspired by the news stories of the time, which seemed to be full of fear of teenage pregnancy, unmarried mothers and snatched babies.

[Roman Clodia]

That's an excellent point about Fremlin's own daughter, Susan, and yes, I can see how that feeds into this story. Appreciate your perspective which helps me make more sense of this book!

[SueLucie]

Thanks so much both of you. This group is great for me, encouraging me to look below the surface. I realise I am a very superficial reader.

I am no anti-abortionist, but my overwhelming feeling on finishing this book was sadness for the trauma caused by deliberate loss of a child. Would the guilt lessen as the years went by and ‘unencumbered’ life progressed? I found the ending unsatisfactory somehow, so neatly wrapped up with jokey outcomes for Iris and Merve. Every character appears to be thriving at the end - even the hopeless Edwin removes his glasses for a hug - or am I missing the point?

[Roman Clodia]

I think it's only recently that women have started talking publicly about the sense of loss even when abortion is consensual and the right decision for them. Fremlin is writing against a tide.

I felt the same, Sue Lucie, about the 'easy' ending where all the problems are swept away and everyone moves on.

Well done, Susan - it never occurred to me that it was Mrs Field. It's usually a younger, childless woman in narratives of child-snatching.

[G]

This was my first Fremlin, and to be honest, when I got to the end I concluded it is likely to be my last. There were some good bits but my gosh, Tim, the squat, and Norah getting off scot-free after stealing a baby were all too much weight for the willing suspension of disbelief. My own bridge collapsed under it and dropped me right down into the chasm wondering if reading it was time well spent.

[Roman Clodia]

If it helps, I thought this wasn't a typical Fremlin and almost all the others worked better. I can understand not being keen after this one. Her Uncle Paulshows off her definite talents to greater effect.

Then again, she may not be an author for you.

[G]

Roman Clodia wrote: "If it helps, I thought this wasn't a typical Fremlin and almost all the others worked better. I can understand not being keen after this one. Her Uncle Paulshows off her definite ta..."

Good to know. I may not need to decide. My library has only one other of her books, and I am not in a position to be purchasing books at the moment.

[Brian E]

G wrote: "Norah getting off scot-free after stealing a baby were all too much weight for the willing suspension of disbelief..."

I completely agree on that. That's why I said in my review: "Unusual with Fremlin, I had questions left and some skepticism about the ending."

Roman Clodia wrote: "If it helps, I thought this wasn't a typical Fremlin and almost all the others worked better. I can understand not being keen after this one. Her Uncle Paulshows off her definite ta..."

Definitely Agree!! That's why in my review I said "Unusual for Fremlin..." This is the first one that I thought ended irrationally with Norah suffering no repercussions.

You should try another. I am not as fond of Uncle Paul as others here. Besides, I think the best way to get a feel for Fremlin's domestic suspense novels is to first read one with a 1960sh housewife as the protagonist and centered at her home.
It might be best to just start with her first The Hours Before Dawn and get a better grasp of the domestic suspense setting and then follow with either The Jealous One and The Long Shadow both of which also fit the bill of a housewife protagonist in a home setting. After one or two domestic setting books then you should try Uncle Paul. It would make for a great "vacation read" or "beach read."


MY RATINGS FOR FREMLINS
4.3 - The Long Shadow
4.3 – The Spider Orchid
4.3 – The Jealous One
4.3 – The Hours Before Dawn
4.0 - Prisoner’s Base
4.0 – The Trouble Makers
3.7 - Uncle Paul
3.7 – With No Crying
3.7 – Ghostly Stories
3.3 – Seven Lean Years
3.3 – Appointment With Yesterday