Works of Thomas Hardy discussion
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Far From The Madding Crowd
Far from the Madding Crowd
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Far From the Madding Crowd 1st Thread: Chapter 1 - 8
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Except for Venus, I needed all of your explanation of terms, Jean. Thank you! I'm not too keen on Bathsheba right now. Maybe it's a long-standing prejudice I have about girls who can so easily forget someone that was madly in love with them! At this point I'm rooting for the new girl, but then like Gabriel, I'm not moderating my impressions. :-)
Sorry, I just finished reading this chapter and was surprised at its shortness. I think the reader was expecting a longer conversation between Bathsheba and Gabriel, yet there is very little of anything at all. There is definitely more going on between the new young woman and Gabriel. Almost as if there will be more between these two in the future.
I'm not quite sure what I think of the situation based on this chapter.
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I’m so glad Gabriel has found some work finally. He is a very kind hearted man, giving a shilling to the girl by the tree, when we know Gabriel has very little himself. There was a nice contrast between him and the bailiff who “showed his nervous dread of loving his neighbor” by not helping Gabriel find a place to sleep (and after Gabriel just saved the farm!!).
Thanks for the extra information Jean. Interesting that Buck’s Head was a real Inn. Usually Hardy changes the name, but not always, I guess.
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In his very early works, I'm not sure he gets the tone right but in Far From the Madding Crowd I feel a real affection coming from the author toward the rural workers, and of course this is where he came from himself. So I hope everyone else feels that too 😊
Kathleen - I don't like Bathsheba much either - or not yet anyway. That bit of internal gloating at Gabriel's position was horrid - I hope she grows up a bit!
Bridget - Oh yes, Gabriel is so kind and intuitive in this chapter isn't he? Whatever happens to him, he's a real hero in my book. I wish he could see Bathsheba as we do, though.
So make sure you're comfortable for today's marathon chapter, and off we go!
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As Gabriel approached the Malthouse, he heard voices inside. The room was lit only from the kiln, which cast a glow on to the owner, the maltster, an elderly man with white hair who was sitting by the fire. The conversation stopped, and everyone looked up at Gabriel, recognising him as the hero from the fire. The owner, learning his name, cried out that he knew both Gabriel’s grandparents. His son, Jacob, said that his own son Billy might have known Gabriel, but Billy said it was Andrew, and Gabriel agreed. He had just been talking about the Oaks with his youngest daughter Liddy, Billy said.
Jacob handed some cider to Gabriel in a huge mug they called the “God-forgive-me”, which all the regulars drank from, (so-called in Weatherbury because it was so tall that anyone drinking it right to the bottom, might well feel ashamed of himself!) He wiped the base of the “God-forgive-me” out of politeness, and Gabriel assured them all that he didn’t need a clean mug. Mark Clark who agreed with everything, approved of this. Jan Coggan gave an older man, Henry Fray, some of his own cup to drink. Henry always signed his name “Henery,” insisting that since that was how the name was said at his christening, that was his name.
Coggan encouraged Mark Clark to join the drinking and then called over to Joseph Poorgrass, saying that he hadn’t drunk anything. They all joked with Joseph, who told the group that he now blushed every time he saw the new mistress, although he had always been shy. The maltster said to Gabriel that such shyness was awkward for a man, and Jacob agreed, adding that it would be alright for a woman. Gabriel agreed with the general view. The others chimed in with more stories about Joseph Poorgrass’s bashfulness, much to Joseph’s evident embarrassment.
Gabriel asked what kind of place this farm was and what the mistress was like, but it appeared that she had only been there a few days. Jan Coggan said he used to court his first wife Charlotte, a dairy maid, at Farmer Everdene’s, and he was kind and generous, plying him with ale. He would eat salt beforehand so he could drink as much as possible, joking that it was only polite when the farmer was so generous. Jan Coggan began to mourn Charlotte’s death, for all she would not have any swearing, like Farmer Everdene.
Gabriel tried to keep the conversation on track, and asked about Miss Everdene’s parents. They were town folk, Jacob said, and gentlemanly—but the husband lost hundreds of pounds in gold. He was a fickle husband, Jan Coggan chimed in, whose will to be good wasn’t strong enough. Henery Fray remarked that Bathsheba was never that pretty then, and Jan Coggan remarked that he hoped that her temper now was as nice as her face. The conversation moved to Farmer Everdene’s flirtatious ways with other women, and dark hints about Bailiff Pennyways, but Gabriel thought it would be best to change the subject.
Gabriel remarked that the maltster must be very old to have such aged sons. Jacob said his father was so old that he no longer “minded” (remembered) his age. The maltster said he couldn’t recall the year he was born, but that he had lived in various places, mentioning each while nodding in its direction. After listing them all, he asked how many years that accounted for—whereupon another witty old man said a hundred and seventeen—so the maltster concluded that was the age he must be. And the mug they were drinking out of, he added, was 3 years older than himself.
Henery suddenly said to Gabriel that he was sure he had seen him playing his flute at Casterbridge. Gabriel blushed, and said that he didn’t used to be so poor, but now he was struggling to get by. Jan Coggan asked Gabriel to play for them, and he did. A young man, Laban Tall (known mostly as “Susan Tall’s husband”), remarked that he could play well. Joseph Poorgrass remarked that he was a clever man, and that they should be grateful to have such a man for a shepherd, especially for their wives’ and daughters’ sakes, since he could have played bawdy songs. Even more so given how handsome he was, they all agreed. Gabriel thanked them modestly, but decided to himself that he would never let Bathsheba see him playing his flute, since they had said how contorted his face became when he did.
Laban Tall was the first to leave, followed by Henery Fray. Gabriel left with Coggan, who had offered him lodging. Then Henery returned, out of breath, to remark that Bathsheba had caught Bailiff Pennyways stealing some barley. Miss Everdene had flown at him in a rage, he said, and the Bailiff ran away.
Then Laban Tall returned, with more horrific news. Fanny Robin, “Miss Everdene’s youngest servant” could not be found. Maryann feared the worst as Fanny had been in low spirits recently. Their mistress wanted to speak to them, so they all hastened up to the main house, except the maltster, who remained inside as he always did, gazing in to the furnace.
From the bedroom window Bathsheba called down to ask some of the men to make inquiries in the village the next day, about Fanny. Jacob Smallbury asked if any young man in the parish had been courting her, but no one thought that was the case: Bathsheba said that any respectable lover would have come to the house. But she was concerned, because Maryann had told her that Fanny was last seen outside the house with only an indoor working gown on, and Maryann had also said she had a bundle with her.
Then Maryann said Fanny did have a young man: a soldier in Casterbridge. Billy Smallbury offered to go the next day to find him, and Bathsheba agreed, saying:
“I feel more responsible than I should if she had had any friends or relations alive. I do hope she has come to no harm through a man of that kind…. And then there’s this disgraceful affair of the bailiff …”
Uneasily, she dismissed everyone. Meanwhile, Gabriel was content at seeing Bathsheba in the flesh, to add to all the hours he had spent at night thinking about her. And he made plans to have his things and books sent over from Norcombe. It was a small selection, but all were important for his needs:
The Young Man's Best Companion, “The Farrier’s Sure Guide”, “The Veterinary Surgeon”, Paradise Lost, The Pilgrim's Progress, Robinson Crusoe, The new and complete dictionary of the English language : To which is prefixed, a comprehensive grammar / By John Ash. Volume v.2 1775 Leather Bound , and Walkingame's improved arithmetic; for the use of schools. Put into a more easy, useful, concise, and methodical form, than any extant. The first edition.
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Although Gabriel is new in Weatherbury, he fits in well in this jovial, friendly group. He has a friendly manner, and no airs like a person from a town or city might. He takes care to fade into his surroundings to allow the others, who are more talkative, to continue to hold court at the malt-house. This is a group of people that knows each other well enough to identify and acknowledge each small attribute of each farm hand. Gabriel is simply expected to nod and acquiesce to the general opinions expressed by the group.
We see that he still holds Bathsheba to be very dear to him, as: “the inner-most subject of his heart”. He shows more social dexterity than we might have thought, from the Norbury chapters, in managing to steer the conversation round to discussing her.
Gabriel has to be insistent in order to keep the conversation on track and learn what interests him, as the group does certainly possess a great deal of knowledge about Bathsheba’s family. The hands often tend to judge women’s appearances casually. I particularly like how he did not indulge in the gossip though, expressing slight disapproval when it became too salacious about Bathsheba’s father, or the Bailiff’s dodgy goings-on. We can see that Gabriel Oak keeps his own counsel. And I liked his books: a mixture of classics and those useful to him.
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Gabriel had taken up his flute to make a few shillings, and, as is typical in Weatherbury, he cannot escape scrutiny or comment from one person or another. But although they are candid, they are also encouraging. Gabriel is slowly establishing trust among the other farm hands, which will prove important as he attempts to establish himself in Weatherbury.
The teasing of Joseph Poorgrass, Gabriel's facial contortions and the fact that the maltster never leaves the tavern are all comical details that lighten the mood of the novel, which is structured around stable, unchanging elements that remain fixed even as the circumstances of other characters we follow are in flux. Fanny Robin’s private life is discussed at length here. It is perhaps surprising that no one has yet admitted to knowing something more about her disappearance, given how difficult it is for secrets to remain so in Weatherbury.
Maryann undoes some of the mystery by suggesting that Fanny does, in fact, have a lover. In fiction from this era, this is a potentially dangerous sign of vulnerability for a woman.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
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Anyone having read Bleak House might remember that Esther Summerson was jokily called “Dame Durden” by Mr. Jarndyce. We investigated this in another group, and discovered that it was a popular folk song:
(Here it is, under a spoiler tag just to save space)
(view spoiler)
“Dame Durden” became a name for a housewife, but since Gabriel has chosen to play this ballad about bringing couples together, I wonder if this can have any significance.
Interestingly, Esther Summerson is also referred to as “Minerva” - just as Gabriel Oak is here! That reference is obvious when you know the story, as in classical mythology, Minerva was the goddess of wisdom and the arts. She was said to have invented the flute, but then threw it away because blowing it contorted her features (whereas Gabriel will continue to play his flute, but decides not to play it in front of Bathsheba. LOL! I wonder if he will be able to stick to this.)
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“louvre boards” near the thatched roof of the malthouse - This is an arrangement of loose boards, overlapping so as to exclude rain but with spaces in between so as to allow for circulation of air and for the escape of vapours from the drying malt.
“Elymas-the-Sorceror pattern” - i.e. Gabriel was groping his way. In Acts 13: 4-11 Elymas was struck blind and “went about seeking someone to lead him by the hand.”
“bobbin” - a rounded piece of wood attached to the leather strap that Gabriel pulled to lift the latch of the malthouse door.
“milestone in a bank” We came across these in Tess of the D’Urbervilles: a carved stone set by the side of the road to indicate the number of miles from a town. The “young man of 65” had but a single tooth, so it stood out prominently just as a milestone set in an embankment would have.
“Purification Day … when the use-money is gied [given]away to the second best poor folk”. February 2nd, the Feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary. In the C of E Calendar to commemorate the events described in Luke 2: 22-35. The money annually derived from the interest on invested funds to endow charities - in this case a class of paupers judged by Billy Smallbury to be not as poor as some.
“gape and swaller … a drap of summit” - open the mouth wide and swallow (in this case) a drop of the cider in the enormous, shared “God-forgive-me” mug. (dialect)
“Saint -Simonian notions” -Ideas about communal sharing of property such as were held by the French Socialist Claude Henri, Comte de Saint-Simon (1760-1825).
“They went to Greenhill Fair, and into a great gay jerry-go-nimble show” - “Greenhill” in real life is WOODBURY HILL, a hill near Bere Regis in Dorset, which is the site of an Iron Age hillfort. An annual fair was held there each September, as mentioned here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodbur...
a “jerry-go-nimble show” is a circus.
“Skittles” - is this just an English game? It’s a type of ninepins, like in bowling. A wooden disc or ball is thrown to knock down pins set in a frame at the end of an “alley”. In the 19th century there were special alleys reserved for women, and these gained a reputation for attracting disreputable or “ba’dy” (bawdy) customers.
“Keeper Day’s Metheglin” - Metheglin is a kind of mead, made from fermented honey and spices. In Under the Greenwood Tree, Geoffrey Day was the keeper of Yalbury Wood (YELLOWHAM WOOD).
The “Belief” is the Apostles Creed, and there are further references to parts of an Anglican service to do with a general exhortation to confess sins.
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“Farmer Everdene’s Kitchen” - Interestingly, Farmer Everdene, as well as being Bathsheba’s father in FFMC, will also crop up in chapter 7 and 31 of The Mayor of Casterbridge.
“Whit(e) Monday” - You may also remember this Feast Day from Tess of the D’Urbervilles. It follows Whit Sunday, the second Sunday after Ascension day, when traditionally white is worn.
“wet” drink: “pretty tipple” nice drink (dialect)
The passage about Farmer Everdene:
“score and long-hundreds” - measurements. A “score” is twenty and a “long hundred” is 120 i.e. 6 score.
“committing the seventh” - i.e. breaking the 7th Commandment:” Thou shalt not commit adultery.
“the money-plate” - a plate for money collections at church. “Let Your Light so Shine” is from Matthew 5: 16, recited during Communion Services.
“come-by-chance children” - illegitimate children
“chiel” - child (dialect)
“Parson Thirdly” - Another interesting connection, this time with a poem we have read called “Channel Firing”, led by John. LINK HERE to read the poem and our discussion. Parson Thirdly is mentioned in that poem.
“like the devil’s head in a cowl” - not Dorset dialect but a witticism by Thomas Hardy. He explained:
“This phrase is a conjectural emendation of the unintelligible expression ”as the Devil said to the Owl“ used by the natives.”
“three-double” - here said of an old man - means bent or doubled over in three parts.
“Upper Longpuddle” is in real life a village slightly north of Puddletown, called PIDDLETRENTHIDE (Yes, honestly! I know these actual names sound more fictitious than Thomas Hardy’s invented ones …)
“I’d lief as not” - I’d rather not (archaic)
Bailey Pennyways has been tuned out “neck and crop” i.e. bodily and completely (dialect)
Superstitions quoted by Joseph Poorgrass:
ringing in the ears - portends bad news and
a solitary magpie| - portends coming sorrow, as in the traditional children’s nursery rhyme “One for sorrow, two for joy” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_for...
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Do ask if there’s something you’re curious about, and if it’s Dorset dialect or knowledge of the local area/history, I’ll do my best, and anyone with a Bible concordance (or good knowledge of it) might be able to help there. 😊
We now have a day free (badly needed in my case! 😂) Installment 3 will start with Chapter 9, in a new thread on Wednesday.
I look forward to your thoughts on this chapter!
Great summary! The comical conversations in the Malthouse are priceless. I love Jan Coggan's retelling the tale of Joseph Poorgrass lost in Yalbury Wood. “Man-a’-lost!” called Joseph and he heard the Owl say,”Whoo, Whoo.” “Joseph Poorgrass of Weatherbury, Sir!” as he answered the Owl.
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Thanks. It's so good to see you joining in 😊
Thanks for that marathon primer/analysis, Jean. I too thought of the Jarndyce household’s description of Esther as “Dame Durden” as soon as it occurred in Hardy’s narrative. I guess it was just the passage of time between my reading of FFTMC and much more recent subsequent readings of Bleak House that didn’t cause me to make the reverse link between Hardy’s and Dickens’s use of the term.
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You know another strange connection I made, was with Gabriel Oak's selection of classic novels. Not only was Robinson Crusoe one of Charles Dickens's personal favourites, but his "&" (and friend) Wilkie Collins had created an unforgettable comic character 5 years earlier in The Moonstone (1868), also called Gabriel - Betteredge, who had been the family bailiff (and was now a sort of butler) who swore that whenever he needed any life advice, he turned to ... Robinson Crusoe! I wonder if anyone else's mind strayed that way.
Somehow I can't believe that this is all coincidence.
And thanks David, Yes it certainly felt like a marathon yesterday LOL - and I've checked that the upcoming chapters are nowhere near as long 😌!
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As you said, its easy enough to follow the dialect Hardy is using, but I was still grateful for your summary to confirm that I read it properly.
Am I right that the old man who is the "maltster" (and Jacob's father) does not have a name?
I knew the name "Dame Durden" sounded familiar, but I couldn't place it, thank you for the "Bleak House" reference.
When the men comment about being thankful on behalf of their wives and daughters that Gabriel is not a player of lewd songs, it made me think of The Fiddler of the Reels - where Hardy paints a picture of what musicians of skill can do to impressionable girls.
One last thought, like Ann and Jean have mentioned, there are so many humorous moments in this chapter. One of my favorites was:
"Nature requires her swearing at the regular times, or she's not herself; and unholy exclamations is a necessity of life"
I've found that to be very true!! LOL
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Oh my goodness yes, The Fiddler of the Reels - I remember you led that one for us 😊
As you say, the maltster is Jacob Smallbury's father, and Billy Smallbury's father too. In the next chapter we will meet Billy's daughter Liddy, who was mentioned.
So the maltster is the patriarch of the Smallbury family. Did anyone notice his first name? (I didn't.) I expect he likes to be called by his profession, and takes it as a term of respect.
I loved the conversation in the malthouse and the delineation of all of the characters, some of whom were mentioned during the fire as well. Only two years after Under the Greenwood Tree, Hardy has learned to tone down the clownishness of his rural characters. He gives them idiosyncrasies and foibles, but he has done away with the outright farce, which I appreciate.During the conversation in the malthouse, the men relate how Levi Everdene "admired [Bathesheba's mother] so much that he used to light the candle three times a night to look at her." They also describe his adulterous impulses and his spectacular bankruptcy. I wonder how this family background has affected Bathsheba.
Gabriel has encountered Fanny Robin with her bundle in Weatherbury in the previous chapter and has given her a shilling, so we know that (at least at that point) she hasn't committed suicide as the men speculated. We also know that she doesn't have any money and has fled without proper clothes. A mystery!
A couple of chapters ago (Ch 6), I was struck by the comment about Gabriel when he isn't taken on as a bailiff at hiring fair in Casterbridge. Hardy writes that "Gabriel, like his dog, was too good to be trustworthy." Bridget's point about the contrast between Gabriel's charity and the bailiff's lack of charity reminded me of that. We know now that the same bailiff - Pennyways - has been dismissed for theft, but I wonder if Gabriel will have to compromise himself in some way to achieve success in the world of the novel.
Jean, I'd say you've outdone yourself with your helpful extra info, but it seems you're always outdoing yourself! I particularly appreciated learning about Elymas-the-Sorceror and Purification Day. Thank you, and hope you're taking a good rest today!I loved getting to know the locals through the revealing Malthouse conversation. I got a kick out of how we meet Mark Clark: "... whom to meet anywhere in your travels was to know, to know was to drink with, and to drink with was, unfortunately, to pay for." And I loved the last bit about Oak's books! It is a satisfying mix.
Yay! I started my reread yesterday.This time, I'm reading the novel in the 1986 Norton "Critical Edition," which (as is the case with all of this publisher's "critical editions") has a vast amount of supplemental material. (The novel itself has 301 pages in this printing, but the whole book has 472.) These features include a textual appendix, maps, Hardy's 1872-74 correspondence with his editor Leslie Stephen while the novel was being serialized, 14 contemporary and 20th-century critical articles/reviews, and more. (Besides these, the text is studded with explanatory footnotes.)
I don't actually expect to read much, if any, of this supplemental content (and I'm definitely not really much interested in the text criticism part; when I read a work of fiction, I prefer for the publishers to just give me the most accurate text they can, and then let me read straightforwardly). But I thought that having the background material on hand might provide a worthwhile resource for our discussions at some points, depending on what questions come up!
Bridget wrote: "Oh my goodness, Jean, thank you so much for all the summaries and extra information. Wow, what a lot of work!As you said, its easy enough to follow the dialect Hardy is using, but I was still gra..."
I echo all that you have said about Jean's wonderful comments. I so appreciate that you have gone to such effort, Jean.
This was indeed a long chapter but in reading it, it didn't seem so long. I loved the group and the discussions in the malt house —and found much to smile and chuckle about. Jean, comparing it to a Greek chorus was terrific and so true.
Erich C wrote: "I loved the conversation in the malthouse and the delineation of all of the characters, some of whom were mentioned during the fire as well. Only two years after [book:Under the Greenwood Tree|8259..."I noticed all that you did, Erich, especially the removal of the wedding ring by Levi Everdene's wife. Its very clever and humorous too.
And I'm so glad that you mentioned that Fanny was in the previous chapter — I had forgotten that. It will be interesting if that comes out in the next chapter and how it will be received.
Does anyone know more about the phrases "Devil's head in a cowl" and "as the Devil said to the owl"?I took the cowl reference to mean that the person was only a pretend Christian or only one on Sundays, And I assume that the man they are talking about is the bailey, who is shown later to be a scoundrel.
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I took the cowl reference to mean that the person was only a pretend Christian or only one on S..."
I think your interpretation is correct, Pamela. They are talking about Bailiff Pennyways, and we already know he's a dodgy sort of Christian because he couldn't be bothered to help Gabriel find a place to sleep. Like you said, he's a "pretend" Christian and a scoundrel.
I don't know any more about where "the devil said of the owl" comes from, though I like that phrase. An owl, being a fierce predatory bird, would indeed make a queer sort of Christian.
I don't know if this is of interest, but the notes in my edition say that phrase was used in the 1874 Cornhill serialized version of FFTMC.
Apparently in 1912, Hardy edited some of this story for a Macmillan publication called "Wessex Edition". He was trying to make the "Wessex" references - across all the novels - consistent (that's what I gather from my very limited research, maybe others know more). In the 1912 edition the line became "like the Devil's head in a cowl" with Hardy's footnote about "used by the natives" that Jean quoted in message 163.
I have finally gotten to this read, my first time reading the novel and enjoying it. I love Hardy's luscious writing. All the comments have been illuminating and have to admit, I haven't thought too deeply thus far in my effort to catch up. Although Bathsheba seems aloof and insensitive to others, I think it must be a difficult road for any woman much less a young woman to make their own way in the world in this era without a man or personal wealth; so I do admire her wanting some independence and making a life for herself with this opportunity to be a successful farmer.Like many others, I am a fan of Gabriel Oak. I already thought he was an honest hard worker but his effort to save life & property of people he didn't know; sealed the deal regarding his character for me.
Pamela wrote: "Does anyone know more about the phrases "Devil's head in a cowl" and "as the Devil said to the owl"?I took the cowl reference to mean that the person was only a pretend Christian or only one on S..."
Pamela, monks wear cowls so a devil's head in a cowl would refer to someone who is hypocritical, just pretending to be religious. You and Bridget have the right idea.
Wikipedia has some pictures of monks in a cowl ( a type of hood):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowl
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and something for us to bear in mind as we are tempted to "judge" Bathsheba: "I wonder how this family background has affected Bathsheba."
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Your interpretation of Thomas Hardy's joke, as suggested by Pam, is of course spot on. Thanks for the image Connie.
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Obviously it's up to each individual how much extra material to read. I gave an overview of some of it in my introductory comments, and regularly include some information from the footnotes which might be useful to everyone, as well as local information I happen to know or find in other books of the area.
If you do decide to read any of the essays, the best are by Michael Millgate, who is not only Thomas Hardy's most respected biographer, but also has written several critical works (tomes!) on his writing. The essays here are extracts from these, rather than specially written pieces.
It is not as comprehensive an edition as many of the Norton editions, and I consider the correspondence between Thomas Hardy and Leslie Stephens to be, frankly, a filler.
However it is good on the detail of different editions. I know your preference is to accept one editor's choices "I prefer for the publishers to just give me the most accurate text they can," and can understand this. Indeed, at the start of our read I suggested that everyone choose the edition they wished, as we can then discuss any specific changes as we go, as we usually do. That way we will be aware of the variations, whereas if we all read the same one, we are not!
With Victorian serial fiction, this is often more pronounced, and arguably interesting, because which after all is the most accurate version? What an author wrote in the original serial? What an author made as their final edits? Somewhere in the middle? Since we never know what their final thoughts may have been if they had lived longer, it is probably impossible to decide.
Additionally with Thomas Hardy, at various stages of his writing, the county he invented covered an increasingly extended area. So his later thoughts would also expand to encompass something he had not originally conceived, and his edits could reflect that.
It's not a simple task, but the editor of this edition, Robert C. Schweik, does explain in detail his own selections.
Personally I'm using 3 editions: mainly the one I put on the shelves (a Large Print one) plus the Gutenberg one from 1895, (Second Edition, extensively revised by Thomas Hardy - they also offer an 1874, First Edition, and have added the illustrations from the serial) plus the Norton "best composite" edition when needed (though only little bits as the print is difficult). And from a detail Bridget added earlier today, I think she may be using a different annotated edition for the final half of the book. 😊
As for the maps you mention, I've included both the popular Wessex one of the area including information worked out in all his later stories, (by Bertram Windle, 1902, with advice from Hardy himself many years later) and I also photocopied the very much sketchier map, which after is all Thomas Hardy had in mind when he wrote Far From the Madding Crowd. Both are in comment 7 LINK HERE.
(NB. Please note my later comment about the letters!)
Jean, thanks for the tip on Michael Millgate; I'll keep that in mind. (I did recognize his name, from another thread --and that was the only name I recognized in the list of modern critics.)Your points about the significance of different textual versions are valid ones (and I can think of other Victorian authors where those differences are worth noting in places, as well). A plus for the Norton edition, too, is that it puts that material in an appendix. (One of my three reads of The Red Badge of Courage was in a critical edition that inserted all of the textual variants in brackets in the main text, and that greatly interfered with the flow of my reading --hence my disinclination to go too deeply into textual criticism, from that bad experience!)
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Jean, thanks for confirming my thoughts about the "Wessex edition", and for adding that MacMillan were his original book form publishers, I didn't know that.
Your compilation book with the "matte green cover" sounds beautiful. I'm so glad you found a real Thomas Hardy fan to give it to, when you couldn't use it anymore.
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I also enjoy hearing about the differences in various editions we may all be reading. I've experienced that on other reads lead by Jean, and it's always rewarding.
Werner's edition sounds fascinating with all the extra information. I may have to find myself a copy of it. Though, I always stay away from the "extra" essays, etc. in a novel until I've finishet. I've been burned too many times with spoilers. Also, the introductions make more sense to me after I've finished the book, and I can understand the references.
Werner, that edition you mentioned of "Red Badge of Courage" with notes inserted into the text sounds awful. I wouldn't like that either.
Apologies if I'm detouring our conversation from FFTMC. I hoped since we are starting a new thread today, there would be less harm in discussing some of these other tangents.
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Bridget wrote: "Though, I always stay away from the "extra" essays, etc. in a novel until I've finishet. I've been burned too many times with spoilers. Also, the introductions make more sense to me after I've finished the book, and I can understand the references."For the last several years, that's been my practice too, Bridget. I learned my lesson the hard way! :-)
Bionic Jean wrote: "...I suggest that we all look out for the many instances of Thomas Hardy suggesting outright or covertly, the power of determinism and fate (and when you begin this novel again, I hope you will look for possible examples too, Werner.)"In the second paragraph of Chapter 6, setting the stage for the hiring fair at Casterbridge, Hardy refers to "two to three hundred blithe and hearty labourers waiting upon Chance...." Just a few paragraphs further on, speaking of the effects of Gabriel's reversal on his outlook, the author says, "...there was left to him a dignified calm he had never before known, and that indifference to fate [emphasis added] which, though it often makes a villain of a man, is the basis of his sublimity when it does not." I don't think I picked up on either comment in my first reading. But given that they're both in Hardy's own narrative voice, they may supply clues as to his attitude (though at this point, they're still no more than small possible clues).
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Thanks for all the information and insights you share, Jean, and the monumental amount of time and thought that you put into doing it!
Werner wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "...I suggest that we all look out for the many instances of Thomas Hardy suggesting outright or covertly, the power of determinism and fate ."Werner notes, in message 191: In the second paragraph of Chapter 6, setting the stage for the hiring fair at Casterbridge, Hardy refers to "two to three hundred blithe and hearty labourers waiting upon Chance...."
I missed these also, Werner. Thanks. Capitalizing the word "chance" should have caught my attention. Thomas Hardy really wanted to impress this philosophy upon his readers. On the surface to me, it seems such a dark and onerous weight to put upon the characters of his novel....and upon life itself.
For the philosophers in our group, what is the relationship between fate, change and chaos?
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That's very kind Werner; I'm so glad you enjoy it.
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That is a good question for us all to ponder Lee, especially with regard to Thomas Hardy.
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I’m sorry: I meant to write “chance vs chaos”. Not change. Seems to me that “chance” when used as a noun is related to “chaos”.
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I also need to note (to Werner, mainly) that I've changed my mind about the letters between Leslie Stephen and Thomas Hardy, which I rather unfairly described as "filler". In fact they give a good insight into the early changes made by Hardy, and do not take up as much of the book as a glance at the contents makes them appear! Instead of listing them all by date, it might have been better to put "correspondence between (and the dates)" since most take up less than a page. Some reviews are also quite short, but the critical essays have more meat in them.
However I'm pretty sure that Werner and I both agree that ideally none of these should be read by someone who does not already know the story!
Bionic Jean wrote: "However I'm pretty sure that Werner and I both agree that ideally none of these should be read by someone who does not already know the story!"Yes, absolutely! I haven't read any of this added material yet myself (including the Foreword by Robert C. Schweik), but I think it's a pretty safe bet that it contains spoilers galore --and possibly for other Hardy novels as well as this one.
I have purposefully resisted joining this group because I know I cannot resist Hardy. I will be lurking, and depending on whether I have any time available to me, reading (probably at a much slower pace than the group). I know the story, having read it more than once, and seen two of the mentioned movie adaptations. I am already enjoying the discussion and (of course) the marvelous background information. Just wanted everyone to know I was spying.
Works of Thomas Hardy
Books mentioned in this topic
The Shepherd's Life: A People's History of the Lake District (other topics)The Shepherd's Life: A People's History of the Lake District (other topics)
Far From the Madding Crowd (other topics)
Under the Greenwood Tree (other topics)
The Fiddler of the Reels (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
George Eliot (other topics)Thomas Hardy (other topics)
James Rebanks (other topics)
James Rebanks (other topics)
Helen Paterson Allingham (other topics)
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“This Ashtoreth of strange report” - I Kings 11: 1-5 - Solomon is described as loving “many strange women”, including Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians.
“Venus” - the Roman goddess of love.
“knock in a bit and a drop” - eat a little food and drink (dialect)
“victuals” (dialect)
“Bucks Head Inn” - In the 19th century this was the real name of an inn on the road between Puddletown and Dorchester.
“Warren's Malthouse” -
This is not the same as an inn, (or public house.) In an early 19th century malthouse, dampened grain, usually barley or wheat would be spread on the floor and periodically turned with a shovel until, in from 4-9 days it was nearly ready to sprout. At this point the maltster would roast the grain in a large fire-heated oven called a kiln. The malt that resulted from this process could then be ground and used for such purposes as brewing beer or ale.
Tomorrow we will see inside the malthouse!