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The Shadow of the Gods
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TSotG: Get to the plot
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Haa, cross-board callout! I feel honored.Anyhoo, to add some shading to my shade, to me this is the classic (sometimes forced) "literature vs genre" distinction, where "literature" emphasizes character development while genre is more dedicated to plot.
Several characters go through development arcs in the book. Of course, many others go to a timely or untimely death. Meanwhile, there is no discernable goal or plot structure here. They don't all have to be the Hero's Journey (in fact, please don't) or follow a four-act structure or any of the usual framing methods. Go free form, go nuts! But have a reason for the characters to be doing what they're doing. So far it's all reaction to big evil meanies who kill wantonly or traffic in children. With a gruesome scene at least every 20 pages.
I guess this doesn't follow Ken Follett's rule: "I like the story to turn every 4 to 6 pages. [8-12 minutes]". The book has more description than Gwynne's earlier writing, but a lot less number of characters.
I made it about half way through and I'm afraid I have to agree with John (Taloni). This book is just not holding my interest due to lack of plot and (to me) not very interesting characters. So, I've decided to give up on it.
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I can't see exactly how the 3 storylines are going to merge, but I can make a few educated guesses.
(view spoiler)
John (Taloni) wrote: "Haa, cross-board callout! I feel honored.Anyhoo, to add some shading to my shade, to me this is the classic (sometimes forced) "literature vs genre" distinction, where "literature" emphasizes cha..."
I guess my door is plot. As in I would like some discernible shape to the book. The plot can be a character arc rather than a quest arc and that is OK. Becky Chambers does that brilliantly.
I am 60% through and I am finally beginning to see some plot beginning to form after we have waded across a country through blood. Enough hints have been dropped that some big events that our protagonists will have to fight are happening, but it is taking too long to get to them. There is too much filler on the journey that seems to have no purpose other than displaying fighting prowess. I get it they are good at murder.
The book reminds me of The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant The Unbeliever in its grimdark setting, ambiguously good or maybe not characters, and medieval life. But there, we knew about Lord Foul early and at least the goal was known.Pern, rambled a bit partly because the first part of Dragonflight waso originally its own story. But the threat of Thread was, well, woven throughout.
LOTR, lots of hanging around in the Shire, but then the threat becomes known, if ambiguous until Rivendell.
This one, we still don't know anything about the threat except some ambiguous statements about what's happening up north.
Incidentally, I am waiting for what I think will be a blatantly obvious "reveal," that being (view spoiler)
LotR has a slow start but does introduce key plot elements in the first chapter. Bilbo's magic ring is much more sinister and has more power than was apparent in the Hobbit. This adds a sense of foreboding over the subsequent chapters. Compared to SotG it moves at lightning pace.
Iain wrote: "LotR has a slow start but does introduce key plot elements in the first chapter. "LotR is a good sort of benchmark for the whole genre. There is often someone in the know (like Gandalf) who is available to sum up what's going on, give out the quest and give shape to the story. But the style in TSotGs just feels more organic. Why should Orka run into someone who puts the entire world into perspective and neatly outlines the bad guy's plot? That feels like a fantasy-book contrivance rather than an actual thing that makes sense to happen.
^ Well, feels more organic to you, which I can accept, but doesn't feel that way to me. I feel like we're getting the Fantasy novel version of a Grandpa Simpson story. I'm waiting to hear how Orka wore an onion next to her seax, which was the style at the time...
John (Taloni) wrote: "^ Well, feels more organic to you, which I can accept, but doesn't feel that way to me. "Yeah, I accept your opinions too - this thread wasn't supposed to be bashing your comments or anything - I just thought it was interesting that we came to opposite sides on a pretty specific point of the book.
Long time back I saw something that said a lot of doorstop-fantasy is intended as "Fantasy as Tourism." The point was to provide an enticing world that also had a plot, but the plot wasn't the whole point.And I don't think it's just Fantasy. The Commonwealth books by Peter Hamilton do go on and ON and on...but I'd like to live there so I'm more accepting of it. Even there, tho, I think we knew the goal fairly early on.
Anyway, this series is selling well so the author is clearly doing something right. He can't be all things to all people. Maybe I'll be convinced by the end of the book. Right now I'm twiddling my thumbs thinking about skimming the last 25%. I do recall thinking "when the heck is this thing going to get started" while reading Lord Foul's Bane and that picked up nicely.
John (Taloni) wrote: "^ Well, feels more organic to you, which I can accept, but doesn't feel that way to me. I feel like we're getting the Fantasy novel version of a Grandpa Simpson story. I'm waiting to hear how Orka ..."Laugh reaction 😆
Seth wrote: "Iain wrote: "LotR has a slow start but does introduce key plot elements in the first chapter. "LotR is a good sort of benchmark for the whole genre. There is often someone in the know (like Ganda..."
Its fiction not real life so I am OK with it not being organic. We are in a mystic Viking kingdom where magic works. By hiding everything you do not have any tension in the protagonist's journey. It takes over half the book to start seeing the actual results of what is happening.
The Black Riders show up much earlier in LotR,
Yeah, Iain, I mean we're probably not going to end up agreeing, but here's the tension as I saw it. For Orka, it's pretty clear. Will she find her kid? Who took him, and why? For Elvar, it's her past as a Jarl's daughter. What does she want out of life, how will she get it? And Varg starts out desperate, not making many choices, but soon finds some tension, too, in the balance between finding out about his sister and his new-found comradeship. It didn't bug me that these don't appear related to some larger goal. And it didn't bug me that there were plenty of chapters establishing what each character's normal was before sending them spiraling off.John (Taloni) wrote: "Fantasy as Tourism."
I have never heard this term, but have become enamored by it. Some of my favorite books could be described this way. Some of Kim Stanley Robinson's books are like this, especially 2312, which I really liked. There are frequent diversions in the form of fragments of "in universe" texts and there's lots of travel between planets and descriptions of their differences. I think Katherine Addison's Goblin Emperor spin-offs starting with The Witness for the Dead could be described this way too. There's usually a mystery to solve, but there's lots of diversions through politics, history, calming spirits in a neighboring city, opera, taking tram rides across the city, favorite tea houses. They're absolutely great. Or, if you don't want tourism, maybe they're very bad.
Mod
It depends what type of story you are after. Some like a lot of action and very little world building.
Some like a lot of world building and a little action. I like a bit of both. Not all story has to be driving the plot forward, all the time.
I'm a gamer. When I was young I wanted games to be action all the time.
Now my favourite type of game is one where I get time to breathe. Yes let me go in all guns blazing with Lara Croft, but then when the smoke clears, give me a break to go exploring and just walk around and enjoy the scenery.
Too much action in games now can stress me out. I don't have the reflexes to handle it for more than a few minutes.
I used to laugh at the genre of gaming called "walking simulators", but once I tried a few, I am now a fan. If they're done right.
A good "walking simulator" will have high end graphics to admire and a rich, often highly emotional, narrative that is triggered by the location you are in. They are, essentially, mini novels you walk through.
Aaaand we now have the first inkling of a plot at the 83% mark.Why does this bother me so? Gonna fess up, I am comparing all of this to Walt Simonson's classic, incredible run on Thor. Aka the Surtur Saga, starting with issue 337. He introduces the Big Bad in the first two pages. (It's Surtur, for those unfamiliar with the lore, but Simonson makes that obvious within a few issues.)
Aaand the third. Three pages for the setup!
I stopped reading comics when they got rid of ben day dots and thought bubbles.
Anyway, I'm now done with the book. After 450 pages we're finally where Walt Simonson started. The second book is available. I may eventually read the next two. Not in any hurry. Great vignettes, way too much blood for me, the glacial pace of story grates on me hard.
John (Taloni) wrote: "Anyway, I'm now done with the book. After 450 pages we're finally where Walt Simonson started. The second book is available. I may eventually read the next two. Not in any hurry. Great vignettes, w..."Nearly finished. This would only ever be a library read if it wasn't a club pick.
Simonson Thor was such a run of sustained brilliance.
Larry Correia's Son of the Black Sword (1) (Saga of the Forgotten Warrior) sounds more fast paced, according to Mike's Book Reviews.https://youtu.be/kmwiUMeOt-8?si=sHzOg...
(Mike's internet got broke and he made this episode on his phone lol)
As I learned from a Philip Chase video, an inspiration for the book is the Icelandic Sagas, which were minimalist and smaller scale. Character was explained through action. Maybe that's part of why the beginning seems to pick up slowly. I wonder if anyone here hails from Iceland?
Just a note. Iceland has a tiny population.As a recent addition to the Distribution Finance department at Carolco Pictures, 1990 or so, it was my job to evaluate film profitability statements. Iceland always was within shouting distance of the other Scandinavian countries for minimum guarantees, revenue and costs.
So one day I looked up the population. 250K at the time. Yep, Iceland is a country made up of a small city and a ring road.
If only all ring roads were like that one though…
Tassie Dave wrote: "I'm about 60% and I thought the plot is well defined."I'm in the "plot was well defined" camp.
It's so interesting to see how different peoples' brains work so differently.
I thought there were plenty of breadcrumbs early on. (view spoiler) Yes, there was certainly a lot of meandering towards a meaningful conclusion, but in my mind it was relatively clear what the plot would be.
Some other observations:
- definitely the pace suffers from the "epic fantasy" issues, where world building often takes precedence, and expecting multiple books changes the pace of plotting (e.g. on re-read of the First Law trilogy, it became obvious that a traditional 3 act structure played out over 3 books, which was a bit weird to me). In this book you can see a few things that are clearly setting up chess pieces for later payoff, which contributes to the pacing.
- the more modern story-telling device of fixed perspectives for each chapter means that they needed at least one POV character there for (view spoiler).
- There's a lot of overlap narratively between the Bloodsworn and the Battle-grim. Lots of norse sounding names getting thrown around, lots of descriptions of the same gear and battles, camp life etc. so I think that doesn't help either.
Steve wrote: "If only all ring roads were like that one though…"So...one ring road to rule them all?
This Icelander is hilarious with his TikTok/Instagram reels. In a deadpan humour sort of way. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C27HEO...
Aside from acceptable world-building and decent action writing, this book did little else well. The characters were weak, motivated as they were primarily by a desire for vengeance or “battle-fame.” There was an overwhelming amount of description and minutiae, so there wasn’t much plot for a book this size. This could have been cut to the length of a novella and been stronger for it. The conclusion, at least, was much more engaging than the rest of the book, and almost made up for the weaker lead-up.
Doorways. I'm guessing your doorway is plot. Some people find world-building the most compelling doorway a novel can have. (Okay, no, I'm not one of those people. But still.)
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
2312 (other topics)The Witness for the Dead (other topics)
John (Taloni) wrote: "Meanwhile I have yet to locate a discernable plot. I know that lengthy books are the style now and meandering storylines one of the popular ways to present them. I just don't think I care to stick around to find out. I'll finish this one but as of now have no motivation to continue to the other two books. Maybe it could wow me in the last third. But I'm now thinking, "for the love of God, get to the point!"
I wanted to argue, but figured it would go better in a new thread since it seemed separate from the idea of gore. I have to say I really liked how the plot was working in this book. It seems to me to be borne really well out of the motivations of the characters. Varg is kinda swept along, but the Bloodsworn's leadership has set ideas about what their objectives are. Elvar knows what she wants and has a chance to make a couple choices that shape how her part of the plot goes. Orka's motivations are pretty simple, but pretty clear. All of that makes it feel like there's a lot of plot going on to me - situations arise, characters make choices, new situations arise. And by 50% or so, most of the characters seem to be going in a similar direction.
This makes the plot feel really organic to me in a way that falls down for a lot of fantasy books that too artificially raise a chosen one to deal with a problem. I agree with John that this is pretty clearly a 3-book story, but being a long story isn't the same as being a meandering one.