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The Diary of a Country Priest
Country Priest - Feb 2024
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1. Along the Way
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But emphasis on sin is also a part of Catholic doctrine. After all, contrition of sins and purpose of amendment are two of the conditions for our sins to be forgiven.
Many other authors have written "sad" books. Walter M. Miller Jr. comes to mind, with A Canticle for Leibowitz, which we read in the club. I don't think they can be considered "jansenite."
The only thing that i have said is that he is influenced by the Jansenisme i have never said that he was heretic. In our messages i say that a lot of writers were influenced by Pascal and, perhaps this was the right explanation. The only thing that i want to say is that Hannay did not like the book because he found jansenist influence. He is in his right. Personally for other reasons i am not a fan of this writer.
I think that the spanish Wikipedia said aesthetic janseniste. I know that the french Wikipedia not, but the spanish Wikipedia yes. This thing does not mean that Bernanos was an heretic.
Mod
It is different if "Jansenist" is put among quotes (as Richard did) or qualified (aesthetic Jansenist, as in the Spanish Wikipedia) or just "influenced by" as Fonch said.
So I'm withdrawing my references to heresy in my previous comments. Forgive me, if I have offended you.
One moment who is felt ofended 🤔? Jansen was a dutch who was involved a controversial with the jesuits. He had problems although he got to solve praising the spain politician (in 1628 escaped of the spanish inquisition and he would try a catholic independent Flanders of the spanish monarchy) and striking the Cardinal Richelieu. He was a friend Jean Du Vergier. He was bishop of Ypres and his Agustinus appeared after his death in 1640. He wanted to combat the calvinism employing the calvinism method. He attacked the pelagianism (it is right), he considered the original sin (right) but the problem was the elimination of the free fate and the predestination. In favor of Jansenius he said in his will that his doctrine was condemned by the popes he would give up. His doctrine was condemned by the Pope Inocence in 1653.
Manuel wrote: "Richard wrote: "It does not help that I really don't like Monsieur le Curé and that the book shows, in my opinion a very French, very "jansenite" vision of catholicism that is certainly not mine."..
Could you mention some place in the book we are reading where Jansenism is obvious?"
I have yet to spot anything that could be construed as Jansenism. I would like to see it too.
Because i have read the novel closer to the Janseniste Aesthetic is "Under the sun of Satan " but i have not read it. I can not know it.
I read this book in its entirety in February before the Jansenism claim was made. I did not and still do not see there is anything Jansenist in the novel. I had hoped there would be more discussion here of actual evidence for the claim of Jansenism, if there is any. So ... maybe there's just not.
I really liked this book, even the first part, which most found harder to relate to. When I was a Protestant, I attended seminary and planned to be a church minister; I could identify so much with the priest's concerns for his flock!
And of course the story of the mother's conversion is powerful. Beautiful.
The priest seems to me to undergo a spiritual crisis, a dark night of the soul and/or the senses. He was too introspective ... but I can relate to that! The way that he consistently underestimated the value of what he was doing, how he didn't see his own faithfulness ... I found it all very moving.
He didn't seem to me like a saint -- he was too concerned with himself and his perceived failings for that! -- but like a sincere, faithful, believably flawed and devout priest. It was hard for me not to pray for him for days after I finished this!
Jill wrote: "Why did he reach into the fire??"I thought it was because her love for her dead son was natural and appropriate, and God wouldn't demand (or even want) her to stop loving him. She couldn't then understand the peace that would come from returning to God and accepting her son's loss.
Mod
I thought it was because her love for her dead son was natural and appropriate, and God wouldn't demand (or even want) her to stop loving him. She co..."
That's beautifully put, Kristi. I was struggling to express my feelings on this that were similar; you've nailed it.
John wrote: "Kristi wrote: "Jill wrote: "Why did he reach into the fire??"Thanks, John!
Kristi wrote: "I had hoped there would be more discussion here of actual evidence for the claim of Jansenism, if there is any. So ... maybe there's just not.."I'm only through chapter five and since the comment about Jansenism I've been looking as I'm reading. If the core concept of Jansenism is that God's providence controls all human decisions so that there is no free will, I have not come across this at all. In fact this marvelous chapter five displayed the heart of Madame la Comtesse's character and life, and everything in the chapter seemed an act of free will with no suggestion of determinism. If Bernanos had Jansenism in mind, chapter 5 wold have been the place to bring it up.
I don't think the novel supports anything of Jansenism.
What an extraordinary work of fiction that chapter five is. I wish I understood this novel a little better. On a first read it's impossible. This novel reminds me of William Faulkner.
ladies and gentlemen i am going to read this book i will find the Jansenisme of Bernanos. The only thing that i found is this Page but i will continue looking for https://medicinaycine.blogspot.com/20... I apologize because the Page is into spanish.
Mod
Fonch, the link you give goes to the review of a film based on the book by Bernanos. I suppose you refer to this paragraph, which I am translating into English:
Even so, Bernanos's theses are closer to Jansenism, condemned as heretical by the Catholic Church, due to its beliefs in predestination, human depravity and the denial of free will.
This is the only reference to Jansenism in the review. No examples are given, and in fact, in my opinion, the description of the argument of the film (which is quite similar to the novel) proves exactly the opposite. Therefore, my impression is that the author of this review has mentioned Jansenism, not because he has found any indication of Jansenism in the book or the film, but because he has read somewhere that Bernanos's theses are close to Jansenism and has not researched the question.
I still haven't found any real argument proving this assertion. So my impression is that when you read the book (do it, by all means!) you won't find anything to prove it. I've read it, and I haven't.
It is a book that needs to be savored I listened to it on audible but felt like I was missing too much.
I am going to try with all securely i will find things that i do not like of this book. I do not like very much this writer. I must confess it.
I have Just started the book and the first three pages of the book is poignant is really good the description of acedia and routine but if i had to define with an adjective i would describe with the adjective "poignant" or depressed at this moment Hannay is right "You do not play against God" it looks Pascalian. I was looking for this book in my shelve if i did not find is because this book did not like really much.
In the page 9 the Priest of Torcy compares Saint Sulpice with Saint Cyr which was a focus of Jansenisme with The Abbey of Port Royal.
I'm going on page 53 but what do you want me to tell you give me more St. Francis de Sales with his "Devotion to the Devout Life" and, less Bernanos, as Gimli would say in the movie The Two Towers "there is more joy in a cemetery". In my opinion it is obtained by believing in good faith, doing good works and, possessing divine grace, not in my opinion as the priest of Torcy does, and mind you that I do not dislike an existential Christianity since I have read Mika Waltari, or Pars Lagerkvist, but if we were looking for that we should have read Gabriel Marcel, or our own Miguel de Unamuno. I have seen this type of writing in Shusaku Endo, but the Japanese writer writes better than Bernanos and his books are extraordinary, despite the Pascalian influence of the Japanese. I was talking with my friend Don Andrés Guijarro Aroque and he told me that, with the exception of Leon Bloy, most French writers have a Jansenist aesthetic, although he was critical of Bernanos's Jansenism thanks to the Final quote, which I won't quote because of spoilers. PS. I'm writing down everything relevant in the book, but for now I agree with a criticism I've read that Torcy's priest tells him what's right and the protagonist insists on not following his advice. It reminds me of that grandmother of William Brown who thinks that any fun was a sin. That is why I believe that France, which is certainly not an example of Catholicism since Philip IV the Fair, should return to St. Francis de Sales, despite the criticisms leveled against him by certain writers, and distance itself from Pascal. I see Catholicism from the point of view of G.K. Chesterton or, like a film by Leo McCarey, John Ford or Frank Capra.
Mod
This St.Cyr is not a monastery, but a military school. What Bernanos is saying in that paragraph is this: Saint-Sulpice was, for priests, what Saint-Cyr was for the military: the school of war. So you cannot use this paragraph as a symptom of Jansenism.
Mod
A long digression, Fonch, but the summary is that you don't like Bernanos, but cannot find any symptom of Jansenism in this novel.
Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "I'm going on page 53 but what do you want me to tell you give me more St. Francis de Sales with his "Devotion to the Devout Life" and, less Bernanos, as Gimli would say in the movie T..."Rather than looking for Jansenism, I'm reading the work and writing things down. The atmosphere does seem quite pessimistic to me. A question: Professor: The scene of Chantal and the priest of Ambricourt: Is it all very dark, are we facing an Oedipus syndrome, or is it something worse? It's just that Bernanos' prose is Jansenist because it's obscure ;-).
Mod
The first interview of the priest with Chantal is obscure, but their second interview will make things clearer. Wait until you read that part.
Manuel wrote: "Fonch wrote: "A question: Professor: The scene of Chantal and the priest of Ambricourt: Is it all very dark, are we facing an Oedipus syndrome, or is it something worse?"The first interview of th..."
Ok i continue tomorrow where i think that i will conclude the book. The Professor will be able to say that i am very active in YouTube i have to dedicate time. Perhaps i continue with "Orlando furious" by Ariosto. I have finished a course that i was doing about prevention of laboral risks. Read on. It gives to me, if there is any trouble in the home of the counts. The problem is the Count, but I'd like to hear his side of the story.
When I said: "It does not help that I really don't like Monsieur le Curé and that the book shows, in my opinion a very French, very "jansenite" vision of catholicism that is certainly not mine."
I was not implying, and I believe it's clear from reading what I wrote, that Bernanos or any of his assertions were heretical. That's way, way above my pay grade, would be a sin against charity and would be profoundly wrong. I would not be reading his books if I thought otherwise.
Please note that I speak of a very "jansenite" perception of Catholicism, between commas. A view that places the emphasis on sin instead of redemption and sees life as a long penance. A view I encounter regularly in France, where I live.
Me, I am with Thessalonians 5-16 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray continually, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.