A Memory Called Empire (Teixcalaan #1)[February 3, 2024]

[Jenna, I'd be free if not for Temper & Edgewalker]

About a third of the way through -- no huge plot spoilers, but some general thoughts.

I'm enjoying the world-building aspects of the book a lot more than the actual plot. The combination of Aztec and what I'm guessing to be medieval Chinese culture is unique, but it somehow works. I'm particularly intrigued by the importance of poetry and I'm hoping to see more of that have a greater effect on the plot.

Love the idea of an imago - (view spoiler)[I can't yet decide if that's a sci-fi element I wish we had in real life. Such a fascinating idea and has the ability to pass down important cultural information from the perspective of the memory of a person rather than accounts such as texts which can be open to interpretation that changes over time, but as shown in Memory, it also has the potential to cause a variety of issues with bias. I like how that is explored through the lens of colonialism here. (hide spoiler)]

On plot and POVs - (view spoiler)[ Mahit's character is fairly interesting as she tries to unravel what is going on, but nothing has really happened yet, with seemingly random encounters that give her tidbits about the next person/thing she should look into while narrowly avoiding harm. As she is trying to put together information, it becomes a lot of "tell" rather than "show." While many of the novel's themes would change or disappear with a different POV, I can't help but wish I could read the same story from Yskander's POV. (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Nirkatze wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Chapter 2... I forgot alot about this, but it's slowly coming back as I listen...

Busted out laughing at 36 ATTV tho :D"

Through Chapter 2. 36 ATTV! Hah! That was pretty fun..."

(view spoiler)[36 ATTV makes me think of people that need to buy enormous trucks and install enormous tires on them :D (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Nirkatze wrote: "Tonari no Emily wrote: "yeah there was no way I could pay attention to the awful narration by itself, but pairing it with my hard copy has helped... Through Chapter 1 Enjoying the super Scifi setti..."

(view spoiler)[I think the "pseudo-cloning" of identities with imago, even if the original memory-holder still lives, is what makes this series give slight Imperial Radch vibes to me... that and the fact the blurb of the 2nd book indicates it's on a spaceship/space station... (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Tonari no Emily wrote: "Lol the 36 ATTV was hilarious... the naming convention in general is super fascinating... i wonder if anyone entirely rejects the culture and names their kid something like "Todd" 😂
Although im gat..."

The smart thing would be to choose a l33tsp34k name... coming up with one that works, tho, is hard... the closest I could think of was 24Marigold... call me SAM for short?...2 looks more like Z than S tho... you basically want a 3-4 letter name where the first 2-3 letters have numerical replacements... Elon would work, actually, if you had a word that works that starts with N... 310N-something...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Jenna wrote: "About a third of the way through -- no huge plot spoilers, but some general thoughts.

I'm enjoying the world-building aspects of the book a lot more than the actual plot. The combination of Aztec ..."

I'm actually imagining (view spoiler)[more Matrix-y applications of imagos... like how they upload vehicle knowledge on the fly... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Through the first Interlude (between chapter 6 & 7) and agreeing with what Jenna says, about tell v. show so far--again, this book is reminding me a lot of Foreigner, especially the first book, where you get a sense that there's something big going on but all the MC sees is the ripples and we have no idea what caused them. (view spoiler)[I can also see why Mahit's lack of agency could be annoying to readers who are chomping at the bit, but I'm rather enjoying it... it's like we get the POV of the audience rather than the actors. Bren in Foreigner is in a similar situation--essentially powerless, and trying to put puzzle pieces together with very limited resources.

I loved seeing Mahit compose the "barbaric" messages and send them out... she's not doing too bad playing politics.

Also kind of hoping for a little (just a squeeny bit) of romance between Mahit and her liaison... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

End of Chapter 7 made me laugh so much: (view spoiler)[
“Are you going to finish the drink?” asked Three Seagrass when the noise had died away.

“Yes. Why?”

“Because I am going to have to talk about Fourteen Spire’s use of assonance for the rest of the evening, and you’re going to have to listen, and we should both be slightly more inebriated.”

“Oh,” said Mahit. “When you put it like that.”

Like--"I need to rant on a topic you probably won't enjoy so let's both get drunk first k?"

Though it could also be she has to talk about it and pretend to like it.., I like my interpretation better... (hide spoiler)]

[Alexis]

Okay, I’m curious though. What would everyone here name themselves, if you had to choose?

[Alexis]

Or better idea, let’s make a game of it, your name is the chapter you’re on, followed by whatever’s to your right.

Lol. Six Phone

[Nirkatze]

Alexis wrote: "Okay, I’m curious though. What would everyone here name themselves, if you had to choose?"

Hah! I was just thinking the same question.

Forty-Two Mouse, I think... I'd be out of fashion, choosing a mammal instead of something inanimate, but at least I named myself after a book...

[Nirkatze]

Through Chapter 9--(view spoiler)[Ah, I was thinking the timing of the 90% was pretty suspect... of course, Yskandr promised the Emperor an Imago... and if installed early enough, it seems like the imago personality would have the potential to completely rape and take over the receiver...

Also thinking on the word, "imago"--can be like "image" and "ego" (as in "I", Latin), and can also be "I'm ago"... which in one reference it sounded like the second was the origin of the word...

I also keep thinking about how completely dependent Mahit is on imago, and how completely adrift she is without it--just her knowledge and wits. But she was sent as ambassador with what seems like NO ambassadorial training, NO contacts, NO network... nothing. Just the imago. How much of that was over-reliance on technology that has now failed, and how much of it was deliberate sabotage... it really makes me wonder about the ambassador previous to Yskandir. What of that person's imago? What kind of prep and training did Yskandir have? Must've been decent, if his 5-year imago was already so well developed...

The war isn't a surprise, but I'm curious seems to be taking on Stationer space... when the chapter-open clips are suggesting that the Stationers and Empire are fighting the same thing, an external threat... (hide spoiler)]

[Alexis]

I think I’d go for something like Thirteen Amaranth.
Thirteen was my lucky race number back in high school and (I’m going to show a little agricultural geekdom here) amaranth is a group of plants that are either these beautiful tails of trailing colour, abundant food providers (like quinoa) or, if they’re a weed species like Palmer amaranth, they’re these super dreaded consummate survivors that eat herbicide for breakfast and destroy your yield.
So, a very good friend or a very bad enemy, and I think they just look cool.

[Jenna, I'd be free if not for Temper & Edgewalker]

Alexis wrote: "Or better idea, let’s make a game of it, your name is the chapter you’re on, followed by whatever’s to your right.

Lol. Six Phone"

Hahah call me Twelve Pretzel

[Nirkatze]

LOL If I go by the game version, I'm Twelve Blanket. Or pillow. I could do with either of those, really.

Glad you didn't ask for left. Then I'd be Twelve Tissue.

[Nirkatze]

Started thinking yesterday that Mahit could be (view spoiler)[Two Imago. Or maybe One. Or Three. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Alexis wrote: "I think I’d go for something like Thirteen Amaranth.
Thirteen was my lucky race number back in high school and (I’m going to show a little agricultural geekdom here) amaranth is a group of plants t..."

Super cool choice, Alexis!

[Jenna, I'd be free if not for Temper & Edgewalker]

Finished!! Things really picked up after chapter 16 (view spoiler)[ with the neurosurgery (hide spoiler)], and I ended up reading straight through until 3:30 am..

Going to open spoilers I hadn't gotten around to and organize my thoughts at a more reasonable hour of the day.

[Nirkatze]

Finished as well! I really enjoyed this--I loved the philosophy of memory, and the contrast of culture--(view spoiler)[I really felt for--and with--Mahit, being enamored of a culture not her own, and knowing she could never be one of them, no matter how much she learned or fit in... I think this is something that many students of foreign languages and culture undergo at one point or another... the love of something alien, and knowing that your very heritage marks you as something alien to it, no matter how well you learn...

I was not surprised by the climax--I was expecting Nineteen Adze to become Emperor since it was first introduced that there was a civil war between potentials on the horizon--but I did love the way it folded so well into the hints and history and even her name. I wasn't expecting the Emperor to pass power in a rite of ritual suicide--such an awesome/terrible scene.

I'm so so sad Twelve Azaleas died... I was hopeful that he might still be alive... That death really hurt. I wish we would get to see Three Seagrass's eulogy pass into fame and history. Fingers crossed that it gets an honorary mention in the next one.

I was surprised by, but felt it very right, that Mahit should return home at the end of the book... go back to Lsel, investigate the sedition at home, and set her heart straight...maybe even stay and see through the conflict at home... these shadowy threats that were solution to her short-term problem, but who may end up being larger. I really hope we get that conclusion in the next book. (hide spoiler)]

Which brings me to...

Seriously? We haven't scheduled the next one yet????

Okay, first person to say "yay" I will take as my second and put in a request.

March 3rd, everyone? Or do we need more time (I don't want more time, I want now.)

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

We discussed before, that #2 needed to be scheduled... but nobody did it, I guess...

[Nirkatze]

Okay, that's #2! I'm taking you as my second Iain! I'll give it a day before I request though, just in case anyone else chimes in about the date.

March 3 ??

[RachelG.]

Date doesn't matter to me. I will be there. I already got #2 from the library.

[Jenna, I'd be free if not for Temper & Edgewalker]

March 3rd is good for me :)

[Nirkatze]

Request made!

[Nirkatze]

Book 2 link is live!
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Jenna, I'd be free if not for Temper & Edgewalker]

Nirkatze wrote: "Finished as well! I really enjoyed this--I loved the philosophy of memory, and the contrast of culture--I really felt for--and with--Mahit, being enamored of a culture not her own, and knowing she ..."

On Mahit and culture, building off of @Nirkatze's comment -- (view spoiler)[Although pacing was slow at the beginning, I thought Mahit's character development was really well done.

As an expat living in a homogenous country, it's an experience every foreigner goes through to a different degree. I've seen a lot of people move here because they love Kdramas or Kpop, only to become quickly disillusioned when real life doesn't play out like a scene from their favourite romantic drama. It really reminded me of Mahit's naivety when she first arrived, full of enthusiasm and determination to not stick out by following all the correct cultural practices and using the language without embarrassing herself.

Then you can see Mahit realize later that no matter how long she stays or how hard she tries, she's always going to be treated as "other." She never had a chance to fit in back home because she had set herself on the path to another land and culture for so long (already had one foot out the door, so to speak), but at the same time, she finally realizes she can never fully become the thing she's always dreamed of.

I'm very interested to see how the author explores her identity and self-discovery in the next book, especially since reverse culture shock is often much more difficult than initially moving to a place and discovering new things. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

I really love your analysis, Jenna... (view spoiler)[this book really resonated with me for similar reasons, though I never fully moved to another country, I am a light-haired blue-eyed person who has been studying Japanese since I was six, and lived for three years in China... I knew since the first time I went to Japan, said "arigatou gozaimasu" to someone and had them praise my Japanese--I only said two words, they didn't even get to see me actually try out my language chops, but here they were, praising me... same when I used chopsticks, or bowed... I will always be a barbarian. It's weird how a compliment can almost be a sword to the heart like that. (hide spoiler)]

[Jenna, I'd be free if not for Temper & Edgewalker]

Nirkatze wrote: "I really love your analysis, Jenna... [spoilers removed]"


(view spoiler)[Hahaha I can't even begin to count the amount of times the same thing has happened to me.

I haven't had the chopstick comment for a while, but people freaking out over me speaking even the most basic Korean is constant unless the business owner/worker recognizes me.

It's even more ridiculous when people here are amazed by me being able to read Korean, even after finding out that I've lived here for 8 years. Learning speaking, grammar, etc. is difficult, but the writing system is one of the easiest alphabets to learn and is based on how you pronounce the sounds phonetically. Anyone could learn it in a hour or two, honestly.

There are so many more little things, but other than sometimes being propositioned and fetishized, I do realize that even though I'm a minority here, being white is still a much different experience to other minority groups living here, and I know they have a lot more negative stereotypes to deal with. And in general, I don't have too much to complain about.

There are pros and cons of living anywhere and I have so many things I love about living here, but you're totally right that sometimes, those little moments add up and even though they're framed like a compliment, they often come off as condescending which feels a bit like a sword in the heart after all the effort you've put in. (hide spoiler)]

Lol not really a spoiler for the book, more of a rant about living abroad.

[Nirkatze]

I feel that so much, Jenna--every time... it's been a while since I've lived or traveled to Japan or China, but I hear you in your rant! (view spoiler)[The reading thing happened to me too a lot... and then the times when I would be speaking perfectly good Japanese or Chinese... and they would turn to my Asian-American friend (who did NOT speak Japanese or Chinese) and say "what did that white person just say?"

This video is my spirit animal sometimes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLt5q...

I do agree though--there's so much to love about each country too, and when I got to know people they didn't treat me that way anymore, just took me for granted, like I wanted... but it also made me wonder about the Japanese who come over here--should I be constantly complimenting them on their English and use of forks? Is that what they expect? Am I being rude by accepting their learning and study at face value and not commenting on it? (hide spoiler)]

[Jenna, I'd be free if not for Temper & Edgewalker]

Nirkatze wrote: "I feel that so much, Jenna--every time... it's been a while since I've lived or traveled to Japan or China, but I hear you in your rant! The reading thing happened to me too a lot... and then the t..."

Hahahaha the video is so good! I've definitely had that happen a couple of times before. I once went to a cafe, ordered in Korean and was asked to repeat myself. I did, a bit louder, and then he asked a third time in very broken English. The woman making drinks stopped what she was doing and said to him, "she ordered XX, can't you understand Korean?" Best moment ever lol.

I think compliments, if they are warranted, are lovely, but it really depends on the context and tone. If the conversation was about how long somone spent studying a language and how difficult it was, great time to compliment them on their efforts. If the tone is friendly or impressed without being over-the-top, also fine.

I think it comes down to if it is something they would compliment regardless of language/culture, complimenting you on your progress because they know how much hard work you've put into it.

Friends admiring my Korean calligraphy when I write them a letter feels very different from "Wow, you filled out your name on a form!!!" If someone were to admire my English handwriting, I would also feel appreciative because I put a lot of time into practicing calligraphy. Filling out your name on a form in English is something you learn in kindergarten when you write your name at the top of your spelling test.

I think the shocked and surprised reaction from certain strangers, particularly older people, is sometimes understandable because they remember a time before the globalized world we live in today. From friends of friends, especially those who have had experience living abroad, you just begin to feel like the token "foreigner friend" of a group, only good for being there as a conversation starter and nothing more.

Oops, I forgot to add a meaningless spoiler tag this time.

(view spoiler)[Hello, I am a spoiler. 😊 (hide spoiler)]

[Alexis]

Jenna wrote: "Nirkatze wrote: "Finished as well! I really enjoyed this--I loved the philosophy of memory, and the contrast of culture--I really felt for--and with--Mahit, being enamored of a culture not her own,..."

Lot's of good comments Jenna, and I agree; I'm looking forward to see how all that shakes out when the setting moves away from the City in the next book (or so I surmise from the synopsis).

[Choko]

By Alexis's rules, my name would be Four Protein Shake:))) I love everyone's name choices though!

If I was choosing by Teicalaan rules, it could be 7 Dandelion:) Seven, because that is and has always been my favorite #, and Dandelion because it's ordinary, very pretty in my opinion, could be eaten in soups and salads, but for some reason treated as a weed in the USA, while very appreciated on the Balkans ...

Alexis, I am only through Ch. 4, so I am going through the first comments of the thread, I definitely think that as useful as the Imagos would be to retain knowledge and experience, it would be more of a hindrance to progress and innovation... I don't believe it would squash creativity as such, but it would be less variation in it, since the melding of the old with the new brain is still limiting, by giving an established mental structure to a possible new wave of thinking... I think everything new will be slow and very laborious in coming, because the more you rely on "classical" thinking, as solid and tried and true as it might be, the more complacent you get as a people... Innovation comes with adversity and unburdened from dogma thought... I think this is why it's so important to have historians and classicists in order to not have to reinvent the wheel over and over, while learning from our mistakes, but also artists and scientists, who have a more "virgin" creative environment, for growth and making those mistakes we would be learning from...

Rachel, I haven't yet found out about sunstruck ... Did it turn out to be significant?

36 ATTV:))) Just the whole naming in combination of kanji and letters, has always been fascinating to me!

Love Three Seagrass best so far:)

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

If I was picking a name, I'd probably try to be clever like that one guy, and do something with 3.14 Pi or 6.022 Avogadro's Number... something mathy, overall...

Or something with triskelions and how things like to split fractally...

I don't have a particular name in mind, just ideas...

[Choko]

That sounds awesome:)))! I don't think I am that smart though, hahaha:)

[Nirkatze]

Jenna wrote: "Nirkatze wrote: "I feel that so much, Jenna--every time... it's been a while since I've lived or traveled to Japan or China, but I hear you in your rant! The reading thing happened to me too a lot...."

So true, everything you said... I love that experience you had, in the cafe--that is so great!! The kind of reaction you'd hope to get...

Speaking of cafes, here's another spirit animal video for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TvnT...

[Nirkatze]

Hah! I love how everyone is getting into the naming game!

[Choko]

Just finished. I really, really liked the way this author writes! Yes, there is very little action, but political intrigue and cultural nuance, as well as the emphasis on poetry, are like catnip to me:) I didn't mind the slow pace and (view spoiler)[ the fact that Mahit didn't have agency for the majority of the book didn't really bother me in the context of the book.

The book is a great mirror of the predominant culture of the time bleeding into and reshaping traditional, but smaller and less influential cultures... And the first generation into those cultures never feels accepted... Even longer if you look differently in a homogeneous society... This author has done a great job catching all the feelings that come with it...

Twelve Azaleas death was very sad, I didn't see it coming at all... Thank goodness Three Seagrass is around! Nineteen Adze is scary! I am fascinated by her, but she is one of those characters you can never trust... And yeah, the Emperor passing down the power the way he did was shocking!

I still don't know how I feel about the Imagos, but I think it might be fun, if you have a very strong sense of self, thus you are not in danger of being taken over by the Imago's personality, but have it almost as an AI, kind of a permanent friend in your head... But again, I think you need to have a very stable psyche to take that on... (hide spoiler)]

I am very interested to see what the next book is going to be about...

[Alexis]

100 percent agree.

[Nirkatze]

Love your cultural analysis, Choko, grats on the finish! (view spoiler)[I am also on the fence about Imagos... certainly the way the emperor would have used it is little short of evil, but the Stationers have good guidelines in place to exercise its informative power for good... and it would be kind of nice, to not be alone... but also, you'd never really have the ability to be alone again, would you? Until you completely integrated... (hide spoiler)]

[Alexis]

Further on imagos: (view spoiler)[ I wish we saw a little more of Stationer life, although maybe that's coming in the next book (which in itself could be cool, with the Teixcalaani being the ones suffering a little culture shock).

Because imagine growing up knowing that someday you're going to be sharing headspace with the memory of someone. That one day you won't be just you, you're going to become a blended person who is part you and part someone else, and you're not even sure who that's going to be yet. What would that do to you as you're trying to develop your own sense of self?

That would be so terrifying. And intriguing. And exciting. But I think mostly terrifying. (hide spoiler)]

[Alexis]

Nirkatze wrote: "Love your cultural analysis, Choko, grats on the finish! [spoilers removed]"

I get kind of Asimov-ian vibes from the emperor's attitude.

[Nirkatze]

re: Imagos--(view spoiler)[Also hoping we'll get more on this in the next book... and Stationer life...

The sense I got so far is that people have to apply, train, and test to inherit an imago line... so it's not something that everyone does, or that is ever forced on someone... but @Alexis your comment about growing up thinking about that makes me think of Alia in Dune, and of Alex's grandson in Leviathan Falls... both characters who are inundated with other people's minds and lives at a young age... I don't think either book explored the consequences to my satisfaction... (hide spoiler)]

re: Emperor--thinking Foundation?

[Choko]

Just out of nowhere, I was going to ask the two of you, are you guys watching the new Shogun series? The first two were incredible! Have nothing to do with the miniseries from the 80's... They are trying to make it as automatic and true to the 1600's period, and is inspired by Takagawa and William Adams, and the beginning of the Edo period... They are using the book only as backbone, but are trying to correct the limited and misguided cultural perceptions of James Clavel, who was also quite biased, having been a prisoner there during the war... So, my question is, are they succeeding in your opinion?

[Choko]

*authentic* not automatic! Darn autocorrect!

[Nirkatze]

As far as my limited enthusiastic knowledge goes, yes! I haven't read the book, and all of my historical knowledge is from college textbooks and just fangirl googling... some historical ogling when I've been in Japan... loved walking through Osaka castle and imagining all the history it saw... I especially love the contrast between the Christian ideas of death and that of the Warring States period samurai... people fighting to live, people fighting to die... like (view spoiler)[the man who offers to purge his whole line to remove the dishonor of a single rude outburst, and the local lord who was about to die an honorable death on his sword rather than dishonorably drown... while you have the sailors fighting with every last ounce to live... the Portugese Catholics willing to do murder protect their economic and political interests... and Tokugawa sitting in the middle of it all like a spider in a web... (hide spoiler)]

I also really enjoyed the dialogue, in Japanese and English, with all the translation going back and forth, and the drama of trust in that...

I find it super fascinating to think of how brilliant these people must have been, back then... to go from nothing to uniting an entire country... scary brilliant...

[Choko]

There are two podcasts accompanying the two episodes on YouTube, the FX channel... Very well explained what exactly they are going for. I am glad I saw that, because they really are using the book to bring the historical dynamics of the time period. I strongly recommend them.

Also, I am glad you haven't seen the Richard Chamberlain version from the 80's... It was riddled with misconceptions... Also, I think that the author of the book saw himself in the Blackthorn character, and as I said, he had a very love-hate feelings for the Japanese...

[Alexis]

Nirkatze wrote: "...re: Emperor--thinking Foundation?

reply | flag

..."

Yep, little bit.

[Tonari no Emily]

I think my Game Version name is Ten Earbud 💀
I'd have to think about my chosen name though :D

[Choko]

Haha:))) I think this one is good enough:)

[Tonari no Emily]

Finally finished this! It took me a while to read the first half and then I plowed through the second half yesterday and today because a) I was very much enjoying it, and b) I want to start the next one in time for bonus BR points! lol
I had a really good time with this, loved the exploration of a foreigner who wants so badly to to fit in, but will never get there-- and not because of her, but because of the locals... (view spoiler)[ I appreciated that that was the main theme of the story along with perhaps what makes "you", "you" while there's a literal threat of alien invasion going on in the background AND in the middle of an attempted coup from two factions.
Mahit does seem to have little agency and is being tossed around by politics she doesn't quite have the tools to understand till almost the very end, but I loved seeing her navigate those situations.. She's lucky she had people she could rely on though!
You could never convince me to have a back-alley brain surgery... no matter how advanced a civilization lol

Twelve Azalea's death hit me harder than the Emperor's self-sacrifice (which makes sense considering how much more time we spend with him over Six Direction).. (hide spoiler)]

Very curious about what's coming next! Will see y'all over there even though I'm quite late :)

[Choko]

I agree completely, Emily! And doubly so on the brain surgery! Hahaha!