"Cloud Atlas" by David Mitchell (April/May Fiction Group Read)

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

LauraT wrote: "Terry wrote: "Leslie, the movie was great ! It fit the book perfectly, I thought."

I fell asleep on my couch after about 20 minutes!!!! I should try it again!"

You should definitely try again -
It took me 2 or 3 sittings to finish the movie because I didn't have time to watch the whole thing at once.
I liked the way the movie switched back and forth more often between stories than the book.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Gill wrote: "Chatterjak wrote: "Alannah wrote: "Just finished The Bone Clocks and really enjoyed it. So I'm looking forward to this one."

I also recently read The Bone Clocks, followed (about 3..."
Which book do you think is better, Gill?

[Gill]

Terry wrote: "Gill wrote: "Chatterjak wrote: "Alannah wrote: "Just finished The Bone Clocks and really enjoyed it. So I'm looking forward to this one."

I also recently read The Bone Clocks, foll..."

I don't know yet, Terry. As things stand, Cloud Atlas, but I'm only a quarter of the way through The Bone Clocks.

[Chatterjak]

Hi Gill, yes I found it very confusing to begin with too! It throws a few teasers at you periodically, but all will become clear eventually - it's very satisfying when it gets there - well I thought so anyway! I quite enjoyed puzzling it out & considering the options as I went through, and it ends up being quite a different novel to how it starts out. I love his writing, he's so wordy, I find him a joy to read, blimey I didn't start out intending to be all gushy!! One of those books that you're really excited about & it stays with you, hope you enjoy it too, would love to hear your thoughts when you're finished!

[Shirley]

Leslie wrote: "There is a film? Maybe this would be a good book for the BINGO square "Book made into a movie" then!"

Yes, I've used this book for that square!

[Leslie]

Shirley wrote: "Leslie wrote: "There is a film? Maybe this would be a good book for the BINGO square "Book made into a movie" then!"

Yes, I've used this book for that square!"

:)

I have returned my copy to the library but the Letters from Zedelghem is the Robert Frobisher section, right? Now that you have brought it up, those sections are less like the others... perhaps he is supposed to be representing a man whose (view spoiler)[creativity and personality don't fit in with the mercantile mentality to such an extent he has to die? Even in the Luisa Rey section, his composition was not successful even though it was recognized as being brilliant. (hide spoiler)] I am grasping at straws...

[Shirley]

Leslie wrote: "Shirley wrote: "Leslie wrote: "There is a film? Maybe this would be a good book for the BINGO square "Book made into a movie" then!"

Yes, I've used this book for that square!"

:)

I have returne..."

Yes, you could be right, Leslie. It's a complex story, made all the more so by me, because I was desperately trying to understand what he was trying to achieve by putting them together like that. I don't think I have puzzled over a book so much for a long time! I was trying to describe it to my husband, and he said it sounded a bit contrived, but that may have been my explanation didn't do the book justice. I think (view spoiler)[ the book does speak of hope, but also despair, and maybe for Robert Frobisher, he saw no other way out. I think I'm going to read some other reviews on this book. (hide spoiler)]

[Gill]

Chatter jack I've just read the 2004 section Brilliant brilliant brilliant!

[Leslie]

Shirley, I think that to some extent your husband is correct -- it is a bit contrived. It was clearly written so as to make a point, not to just tell a story, as its structure is not the natural form of a story. That doesn't make it bad though.

[Greg]

I'm quite late to the party here, but I finished my last read quicker than expected; so I've decided to give this one a go, partly because of the vibrant conversation it's generating. Thanks for inspiring me everyone! I just started reading it this morning.

[Shirley]

Leslie wrote: "Shirley, I think that to some extent your husband is correct -- it is a bit contrived. It was clearly written so as to make a point, not to just tell a story, as its structure is not the natural f..."

Yes, contrived, but not in a bad way. I think it made for a very good book overall, better as a whole than each of the separate stories.

Greg, it's great that you are joining us! Although I have finished it, it's the sort of book you could just go on and on discussing.

[Greg]

I'm just a little way into the second story now.

The vocabulary so far was pleasantly bracing! Some of those words I hadn't encountered for a long time and others I had to look up.

The first section held my interest, but I was a little annoyed that (view spoiler)[he broke off the first story mid-sentence. Really, I have to flip back and forth 500 pages to finish a sentence? Not a big deal, but that one thing felt gimmicky. (hide spoiler)] Also, the (view spoiler)[overwhelming racism of the culture of the first section (hide spoiler)] hit me like a sledgehammer! I'm curious where the author is going to go with that - clearly, it's by no means accidental and will play into the themes.

The second section I am thoroughly enjoying so far! I like (view spoiler)[the narrator, a good natured scoundrel. He's made me chuckle quite a few times. I'm intrigued as well by the way he addresses Sixsmith. Looking forward to learning more of the two of them. (hide spoiler)]

[Shirley]

Greg wrote: "I'm just a little way into the second story now.

The vocabulary so far was pleasantly bracing! Some of those words I hadn't encountered for a long time and others I had to look up.

The first sec..."

Glad you are already enjoying it, Greg. I thought the same as you when I got to the end of the first chapter!

[Leslie]

If I recall correctly Greg, you will find something in the second part that is directly related to your first spoiler. It made that a little less annoying to me.

[Greg]

Good to know Leslie! :)

[Greg]

Aaah Leslie, I got to the part you referred to - I do forgive the oddity I complained about earlier. It does make sense - not just a syntactical oddity. The author is quite clever!

I'd had the impression Mitchell was going to be like Thomas Pynchon, brilliant with the mind games perhaps but more for me to appreciate than enjoy. I was totally wrong in my pre-judgement!

The first section, I wasn't sure, but the second and third sections I've thoroughly enjoyed. I wouldn't have dragged my feet in starting this if I'd known it was going to be such fun!

With everything going on with me right now, I just couldn't deal with a The Crying of Lot 49 at the moment. And it looks like I won't have to! :)

[Suzanne]

Tweedledum wrote: "I've just got to the section where Frobisher goes to stay with the blind composer Crommelynk. To me this reads like a complete send up of Eric Fenby's Delius as I Knew Him and the fac..."

Good to know where this comes from. I had not recognized the source, but I do admire Mitchell's ability to relate his different stories in a style of the time and place. To my mind, The First Luisa Rey Mystery reads like a Michael Connolly thriller, which would be appropriate to the time and place.

[Greg]

It's true Suzanne, the different sections have very different styles, vocabulary (even level of vocabulary based on educational background), etc. The First Luisa Rey Mystery definitely reads like a mystery/thriller, and the first two sections don't read like that at all.

[Shirley]

Greg wrote: "It's true Suzanne, the different sections have very different styles, vocabulary (even level of vocabulary based on educational background), etc. The First Luisa Rey Mystery definitely reads like a..."

Wait till you read the next three, all very different again!

[Greg]

The Luisa Rey Mystery section was so gripping .. took all my mind mojo to prevent myself from flipping ahead to see what happens in the next Luisa Rey section!

Now I'm enjoying the Cavendish section too - as you say Shirley, very different again!

Using spoiler tags to hide any key plot points (I'm only on Cavendish after all!), I'm curious to know what everyone's favorite sections were?

So far, for me:

Letters from Zedelghem (favorite)
Half Lives: Luisa Rey Mystery
Ghastly Ordeal of Timothy Cavendish
Pacific Journal of A. E. (least favorite)

As I get further, I'll update the above list.

[Greg]

I've been listening to portions of this on audiobook and reading portions of this as a physical book.

Oh my goodness, the line queue argument in the first Timothy Cavendish section was so funny on the way to work that I laughed to hard it made me choke. The reader's delivery in the audiobook was absolutely priceless!

[Leslie]

Greg wrote: "Using spoiler tags to hide any key plot points (I'm only on Cavendish after all!), I'm curious to know what everyone's favorite sections were? ..."

I think that the Sonmi sections might be my favorite, although I really liked the Luisa Rey parts too (especially the first one -- like you Greg, I had to restrain myself from skipping ahead to the second section).

Timothy Cavendish I think was the funniest part.

[Shirley]

If I have to pick a favourite, I liked the Sonmi sections best, but I couldn't really choose between the other sections as they were all good in their own way. Even the first section turned out to be good by the end of the book, although I hadn't warmed to it initially.

[Greg]

Leslie and Shirley, I did like the Sonmi sections .. so crushing when (view spoiler)[Mitchell describes what goes on in Papa Song's Golden Ark. Of course, I suspected they weren't going into blissful retirement, but the reality was so much darker than I thought. Is it wrong that this made me think of the Mad Cow epidemic partly caused by pigs being fed meat, in some cases ground pig, to fatten them faster? Quite disturbing. Sonmi's society sees her on a similar level, I think. (hide spoiler)]

But mainly, wow, I loved, loved, adored the Timothy Cavendish sections. So hilarious and the (view spoiler)[escape from the nursing home (hide spoiler)] was just priceless! Those parts alone make the book worth it.

I'm just starting the second Luisa Rey Mystery section. Only about a hundred pages to go. I'm really enjoying this, and I wasn't at all expecting to. Double bonus! :)

[Shirley]

Greg wrote: "Leslie and Shirley, I did like the Sonmi sections .. so crushing when [spoilers removed]

But mainly, wow, I loved, loved, adored the Timothy Cavendish sections. So hilarious and the [spoilers remo..."

Yay, so glad you're enjoying this, Greg. Like you, I found it got better and better.

[Alannah]

About to start this, can't wait.

[Greg]

Yay Alannah! :)

[Leslie]

Alannah wrote: "About to start this, can't wait."

I think you will really like this Alannah!

Greg, like you I hadn't expected to like this. I was pleasantly surprised by Mitchell's writing style (styles I should say!) -- overall the book was very readable.

[Laurel]

I have this from the library, but I have some other books to finish first. Glad to hear folks are enjoying it.

[Colleen]

Just finished Mrs. Dalloway, so happy to be able to move on. This one sounds very intriguing. Sounds like the movie needs to be seen too, afterwards. This is my second Booker book of the year (The Luminaries which I loved) so am looking forward to the experience.

[Gill]

Greg wrote: "I've been listening to portions of this on audiobook and reading portions of this as a physical book.

Oh my goodness, the line queue argument in the first Timothy Cavendish section was so funny o..."

Who's the narrator, Greg?

[Greg]

It's great Gill! I've been reading portions of it as a physical book, but I do have the audiobook I've been listening to as well on the way to/from work.

The audiobook doesn't work as well in the Adam Ewing sections since the style is so idiosyncratic with so many unexpected words (found that one easier to read exclusively as a physical book), but the rest of the sections were great!

There are 6 different narrators for the different section headers, one for the Zedelghem sections, one for Cavendish sections, etc. The narrators are all good, especially the Cavendish one. I got it from the library on CDs, and it's not well marked, but I think it's this one (see "features and details" at the link for the list of narrators).

[Greg]

Shirley wrote: "I struggled to get into the first story, then enjoyed the rest of it until I got to the second part of Letters from Zedelghem. I ..."

I'm on the final section now, only 30 pages left. Well, I've been enjoying it as well, but I was heartily annoyed by the ending of the second "Letters to Zedelghem." (view spoiler)[I guess since I was really finding the voice of the rascally, quirky narrator entertaining, I just didn't want that to be his ending. Also, there have been some very strong hints of reincarnation; so I'm trying to align that behavior in my head with Luisa Rey and Sonmi and struggling. (hide spoiler)]

After I finish the whole book, I'm going to sit down and think about this more.

[Gill]

Greg wrote: "It's great Gill! I've been reading portions of it as a physical book, but I do have the audiobook I've been listening to as well on the way to/from work.

The audiobook doesn't work as well in the..."

I've got a copy with Gareth Hagen etc, from Audible, Greg. I read the book some time ago, so I'll listen to it at some stage.

[Suzanne]

I found the book fascinating and have written a brief review but don't know how to link it here.

After finishing the book I watched the film. Although I could follow, my daughter, who has not read the book, was completely lost and didn't enjoy it at all. While I found some parts good, particularly the Timothy Cavendish episodes, others, such as the Somni ones, were very disappointing. Perhaps not surprisingly the whole structure and balance of the book was lost and some liberties taken with the story.

[Colleen]

I'm on the third section and the first Luisa Rey mystery and loving it so far. I wish I could read faster and not fall asleep at night reading it, lol. The individual sections are written well and I want to find out what happens and what it's all about. I see that we come back to a few of the sections so totally curious how this all comes out. The more nonlinear books I read, the more I like them, as long as the writing is excellent.

[Carol]

This is one of my favorite books of all time! Absolutely love it and think the author is brilliant. I couldn't put it down - the writing styles in the different segments are so completely different yet also completely engaging. I also loved the movie. I often dislike movies that jump around in time but this one worked for me (maybe because I read the book first).

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I agree with you, Carol!!

[Shirley]

Carol wrote: "This is one of my favorite books of all time! Absolutely love it and think the author is brilliant. I couldn't put it down - the writing styles in the different segments are so completely different..."

I've just watched the film, now I've finished the book, and thought they did quite a good job, except that in the story in the far future, the words were a bit mumbled and difficult to understand, especially since the language has changed so much - so I felt that could have been done better. My husband (who hasn't read it) found it all a bit boring, which was a shame, as I thought it was a great book, and the film hasn't made him want to read it!

[Greg]

Colleen wrote: "I'm on the third section and the first Luisa Rey mystery and loving it so far. I wish I could read faster and not fall asleep at night reading it, lol. The individual sections are written well and ..."

Glad you're enjoying it Colleen! Curiosity about what it was all about was one of the things that drew me through as well. A fascinating book!

[Greg]

OK, we're nearing the end of the official April/May fiction group read interval, and it looks like several have finished. As with most of the best books, I've been thinking about it a lot since I finished myself. For those who are done reading, I have a question, what do you make of the mysterious comet birthmark? In the spoiler below is my current best guess, but I'd love to hear what others thought.

(view spoiler)[There are numerous references to reincarnation throughout; so I'm thinking the different carriers of the comet birthmark represent different incarnations of the same soul. This comes up in several sections, for instance this quote in the Sloosha's Crossin' section: "I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow?"

So ok, if they're the same soul reincarnated, why in the world does Robert Frobisher behave so contrary to the rest of them? This question really bugged me. Sure the shape can be different but why the key substance? Why would Frobisher throw his life away in such a seemingly callous manner while other carriers of the comet birthmark (such as Luisa Rey and Sonmi) struggle to survive, risking their lives only to struggle for justice?

It's a tricky question to answer, but I think the final section's conclusion gives a clue: "What precipitates acts? Belief. Belief is both prize and battlefield, within the mind and the mind's mirror, the world. ... If we believe humanity is a ladder of tribes, a colosseum of confrontation, exploitation & bestiality, such a humanity is surely brought into being & history's Horroxes, Boerhaaves, and Gooses shall prevail ... If we believe that humanity may transcend tooth & claw, ... if we believe leaders must be just, violence muzzled, ... such a world will come to pass" Belief comes before behavior. What a person believes is a large part of what makes them act the way they do.

So then, what did Robert Frobisher believe?

It was hard for me to acknowledge because truth be told, I found Frobisher rakishly charming. But in Frobisher's own words, he writes, "People are obscenities. Would rather be music than a mass of tubes squeezing semisolids around itself for a few decades...

And what about the others, those who seek justice?

They believe something different, that people (and even fabricants) are precious, not just commodities and certainly not obscenities; so they behave differently.

So what do I make of all this?

Maybe this very difference between Frobisher and the others is the point ... that the same raw material of soul can come to such vastly different ends by just a few differences in belief! How powerful beliefs are then! From beliefs spring behavior, spring actions, spring everything. The nobility of Frobisher's soul comes out in his music, but regardless, he can't demonstrate the selfless determination of Sonmi or Luisa Rey because his beliefs that he's formed by the life he's led (and perhaps even more simply those things he chooses to believe) make him incapable of such nobility of action. (hide spoiler)]

Maybe I've been thinking about this too long, but that's what I make of it right now.

I'm eager to hear what others think. I'm sure a little discussion could help me understand much better!

[Pink]

I like how much thought you've been giving this Greg! I haven't joined in your discussions here, but I did read the book a couple of years ago and afterwards had to do a bit thinking on what it was all about. (view spoiler)[From my memory, I think yes the comet symbol was to show reincarnations of the same soul, but there was also progression of souls throughout the different story lines. This was something that I didn't really pick up until watching the film, where I was able to see the same actors playing various roles and notice how they changed for the better or worse. I'm not sure how intentional this was in the book, but I guess the ideas were there, I just didn't see all the interconnections so clearly. When it comes to Frobisher being different to the others, in not wanting to live, I didn't see it quite like that. I thought by killing himself he was taking control of his own destiny and he seemed to know that it wasn't the end of his story. I also thought Sonmi took control of her own destiny in a similar way, knowing that she would be going to her death in the end. I think Frobisher has the most complex storyline though and I have read other ideas that he was the main character imagining all the other stories. (hide spoiler)]

There are a couple of great character guides that I found after watching the film, which explained things clearer to me. Of course they aren't a definitive account of the book, but they did help me. I'll link them incase anyone is interested.

This one is a picture chart from the film, showing which actors play which characters, so you might want to have seen the film first.
http://www.scene-stealers.com/wp-cont...

This guide also refers to the film, but it nicely explains the characters progression over time.
http://www.vulture.com/2012/10/guide-...

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Hey Greg, maybe the comet shaped birthmark is just to show how the people are connected through the generations, an inherited trait. I am interested to see what your idea is, but I can't read the spoilers on my phone app.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Thanks Pink, for the extra info!

[Greg]

Thanks Pink, I guess my reaction to Frobisher comes from feeling a bit disappointed in him. (view spoiler)[I was a bit taken with him at first because those sections have such an amazingly strong voice, flippant, quirky, funny - totally different in personality but just as strong a voice as the narrator in Nabokov's Pale Fire. I can easily see how Sixsmith was charmed by him, despite knowing he was absolutely going to be trouble. He's one of those guys who have such a vibrant individual spark that you might fall for when you're young because they're just this blazing, bright light, and squinting into the glare, you can't seem to see their faults clearly and you just want to believe in them so, so badly. I think I was charmed by him too. I was so invested in the story that when he killed himself, I guess maybe I felt betrayed myself too! LOL!

Perhaps if he was sick or helping someone else I could understand, but it just feels so very selfish. He's young, maybe thirty and healthy, not a dying, cancer-riddled man. It's obvious to me that he knows how much Sixsmith loves him, adores him, but he doesn't really think much of Sixsmith. He asks for money, he asks for favors, but he doesn't give much in return. He doesn't even give Sixsmith the opportunity to talk to him before his death. Yes, he didn't want to be talked out of it, but still, it feels like a cop-out.

Though Sonmi goes to her death too, she does it to save many others, and she doesn't want to die. She just has no choice because of the broken world in which she lives. Really, she's choosing life - life for the many other fabricants and the down strata purebloods she'll be saving from fates worse than death.

I like what you say about "progression of souls." I'll have to think about that. I definitely do think the same main soul is being shown as better and worse throughout. Interesting that you say other actors are repeated as well. I didn't pick up on clues of that from the book - now I'm very curious to see the movie!!

I like what you say too about Frobisher knowing it wasn't the end of his story. Now that would change things! I had a close friend tell me something like that once - that we would definitely meet and be in each other's lives again as men, as women, in some reconfiguration in future lives, and it wasn't just an attempt to comfort me or himself - he was Buddhist, and I think he really believed that, with all his heart. If Frobisher thought that way, it would change things quite a lot. I don't remember clues in that direction, but it certainly could be. I'm going to go back and re-read those sections to see what I think.

Finally, the part that he was imagining all the other storylines, that didn't occur to me exactly, but I did find myself wondering if some of the storylines weren't strictly real. After all, both the Adam Ewing and Luisa Rey sections comprise books, and the Cavendish sections comprise a movie. I decided to believe they were all real in the end, but that was just a choice of belief. Some of the stories could well be imaginary, stories within a story.

Thanks for the links too! I want to think a bit more first before I look at them though. I often agree with critics about the meaning of a book, but occasionally I strongly disagree. Reading critics too early could kind of crush my ideas in the bud. I want to let them flower first. Then once I'm clear in my own head, I always read the critics' ideas and often adjust my own considerably, but I also often retain something unique that I really believe is true and worth knowing. If I read them too early, they often sound so good that I just go with what they say instead of thinking. I'm too persuadable I guess. :) (hide spoiler)]

[Greg]

Terry wrote: "Hey Greg, maybe the comet shaped birthmark is just to show how the people are connected through the generations, an inherited trait. I am interested to see what your idea is, but I can't read the ..."

Perhaps that's true Terry, maybe not reincarnated souls but different souls with inherited traits as you say.

Hopefully you get a chance to open the spoilers later. Curious to hear more of what you think! :)

[Shirley]

I'm going to have to look again at the Frobisher second section. I too felt let down by Frobisher, but I think too (view spoiler)[ it was his only way out, or his life and music career would have been ruined. I'm not with the reincarnated souls theory. I think it's a symbol of hope, the one prepared to stand up for what is right, even to death. In a way, Frobisher did refuse to accept the status quo, and his death was his stand against what was wrong with the world. (hide spoiler)]

[Pink]

Greg, I agree with all you say! (view spoiler)[I think Frobisher is the best character in the book and he definitely charmed me too, so I was sad about his ending. I personally don't believe the other story lines were imagined by him, but I can see why it's been suggested, as he does seem to be a pivotal character. (hide spoiler)] After you've thought things over some more, I would recommend watching the film next, then looking at the links I posted afterwards, so not to spoil which actors are playing which parts. You'll probably still need clarification after the film too!

[Shirley]

Pink wrote: "Greg, I agree with all you say! [spoilers removed] After you've thought things over some more, I would recommend watching the film next, then looking at the links I posted afterwards, so not to spo..."

Thanks for posting the links, Pink! They've really helped as I have puzzled over this!

[Pink]

Glad they helped Shirley :)