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I am a new author. It seems like the single most important question to everyone is "How are your sales?" and the same people who are bent on asking that question has not bought one book. Anyway I always tell them and everybody else, I have the rest of my life and my grandchildren life to sell my book.if you love to write then write and let the chips fall where they may.
I've read of people who got recognition a few books later (Maybe 5th, or 6th or ??)
If you are not passionate about something then the work becomes boring. if you are then it gives you reason to continue.
Ellen wrote: "I trust you've had a good experience with Wattpad, A.W.? "I have stories on Wattpad. I direct people there who want a free read. I publish short stories and novels and often send out the links for my readers. It's easy to use and free. Is there some subtext to your comment I am missing?
I suggest Wattpad to people who just want to write, and have their stories "out there" for people to read. It's an easy interface and you don't have to worry about the commercial aspects of publishing (like cover art, editing, formatting, advertising etc). If you don't like the Wattpad demographic there is also WriteOn, which is the Amazon operated equivalent and has a slightly older readership.
As I said, sometimes people say they simply want to be read, but when you suggest a free site like Wattpad, it turns out they actually want the sales. I think Moonlight Reader nailed it with the comment "...they don't (openly, at least) care if they make any money (I firmly believe that they are all secretly convinced that they are one book away from riches beyond imagining..."
Its a long road to Rome..Keep on walking..
Another way to approach this subject is 'When do you consider your writing/publishing successful?'Certain things are under the writer's control - mainly the content of their books. Other issues might be more difficult or sometimes impossible, like designing/making a cover, writing blurbs, marketing and promotion.
Sharing your work by publishing the finished book on commercial retail website will get it more eyes than posting it for free on Wattpad, et al.
When I was hungry for feedback on my writing, I posted my work on Thoughtcafe (now sadly gone), where I received the support to find a publisher for my work. When publishers tried to reel me in with low advances, hollow promises and boilerplate contracts, I went into self-publishing.
I know my work can easily match trade published works (or Big Five publishers wouldn't have offered me contracts), so I don't need the validation anymore that my work is commercially viable.
So now I'm an author/publisher. The author part is working out fine, I enjoy the writing/editing/polishing a draft/manuscript until it's publishable. The publishing site requires more effort. I'm not good at self-promoting and marketing, but I'm finding my way while building up my catalogue. I get amazing fanmail and incredibly gratifying blog reviews, so I'm pleased with the part that's under my control and I'm working on getting control on the more elusive publishing part.
I just cherish my minor successes and keep on working.
Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "Another way to approach this subject is 'When do you consider your writing/publishing successful?'Certain things are under the writer's control - mainly the content of their books. Other issues m..."
You make a persuasive case for self publishing, Martyn. However, I doubt if most self-published writers can say they turned down a Big Five contract to be independent. For most writers, that external validation (a publisher's contract) is the only thing that assures us that our writing is not mere self indulgence. Though my publishers didn't really push my books; though I am convinced they made some fatal errors in marketing them, I still feel they sold far more books and got me far more publicity than I could ever have done on my own. Most readers and librarians are more willing to take a chance on an unknown author provided the publisher is well known; not to mention the lower number of e-book readers (in India at least) compared to readers of traditional books.
But I am happy to hear that your books are doing well, you deserve the success! And good luck with the ENT venture!
Shari wrote: "Success is not something that happens overnight for the majority of us. When I stopped focusing on sales and started digging deep into my stories, my sales picked up. I'll sell well over a hundred ..."I forget who said this (maybe Elmore Leonard) but I remember the quote itself: "It took me ten years to become an overnight success."
That said, I think we all have different expectations of success. I know I become discouraged when sales are down, and my writing suffers as a result. I can understand writers who just want to get their stories heard, without regard to earnings, but I'm not one of them. At the moment, my writing brings in beer money, but I'd like to get at least to single-malt Scotch money :)
I chose to launch my self-publishing career writing short stories because I enjoy the short form, but short story collections are less than 1% of the e-book market. I often think I should write something in a "hot" genre to subsidize the niche-market stuff I really enjoy writing, but that requires a different skill set and I don't know if I have what it takes.
A.W. wrote: "Ellen wrote: "I trust you've had a good experience with Wattpad, A.W.? "I have stories on Wattpad. I direct people there who want a free read. I publish short stories and novels and often send ou..."
No subtext; I wanted to know if you've had a good experience with Wattpad - I'd like to try it out for my new work.
Martyn V. (aka Baron Sang-Froid) wrote: "Another way to approach this subject is 'When do you consider your writing/publishing successful?'Certain things are under the writer's control - mainly the content of their books. Other issues m..."
I've seen your books, Martyn, and sampled your writing. You are head and shoulders above 90% of your self-published competition. If you were truly representative of self-published authors, people would take it more seriously. Sadly, you are not. Representative.
Wattpad has a huge readership. If a writer can't find an audience for his/her stories there, I don't think they will find one on amazon where people have to buy the book to read it. It does skew a bit younger, I think, but I actually have a wattpad account and will occasionally read something over there that catches my fancy.
Free downloads =/= to readers. I think that a lot of people with kindles go through a period where they download hundreds of freebies, which then languish unread. If they dive in an read a few, they are astounded - and not in a good way - by a distinct lack of quality possessed by most of them. A very few readers continue to enjoy the thrill of the pursuit, the fun of finding a gem among the slag. Most of them quit downloading freebies and read the books that they've paid to purchase.
Actually, I have found many decent books for free and a few from popular authors as well. They are a diamond in the ruff, but to me, they are worth looking for. I read every book that I download, even if it is just a chapter to decide if I want to read it or not. I've been doing this for years and I think I've read about 50 to 100 free books on amazon. I think I read about 20 a year of them. This year I'll be lucky to read 5, but it's from being busy. They are also from the daily free reads that are usually only live for a limited amount of time.
Ellen wrote: "No subtext; I wanted to know if you've had a good experience with Wattpad - I'd like to try it out for my new work. "Wattpad is an interesting creature. Yes it has a large teen segment who are all writing/reading ID fanfics in all sorts of flavours (some with sparkly vampires). But there is also an older user base looking for better quality reads. If you can gain a following on Wattpad then they will follow you and purchase/review your books (if that's what you want). You need to keep in mind it is still a social media site. If you want millions of reads and thousands of followers you have to work just as hard as you would to sell a book on Amazon.
If you just want to write, put the work up and have a link for friends, family & followers then it's great and easy to use. I also like it has the option that you can put in the work being "social" and increase your reads & followers. I'm releasing one of my novels chapter by chapter just to see what happens.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "I've seen your books, Martyn, and sampled your writing. You are head and shoulders above 90% of your self-published competition. If you were truly representative of self-published authors, people would take it more seriously."You can always hope that one day people follow the right example, instead of the example that screams the loudest.
Thank you for your kind words, though, it brought a smile to my face.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "Wattpad has a huge readership. If a writer can't find an audience for his/her stories there, I don't think they will find one on amazon where people have to buy the book to read it. It does skew a bit younger, I think, but I actually have a wattpad account and will occasionally read something over there that catches my fancy."
I'm a Wattpad author myself and I did a serial publication of Reprobate. My free short stories are also on Wattpad, but I don't think my material is suited for Wattpad's main readership, which is more YA and NA. Still, I did get some fans through Wattpad, and I think that it's a must for YA/NA writers.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "Free downloads =/= to readers. I think that a lot of people with kindles go through a period where they download hundreds of freebies, which then languish unread. If they dive in an read a few, they are astounded - and not in a good way - by a distinct lack of quality possessed by most of them. A very few readers continue to enjoy the thrill of the pursuit, the fun of finding a gem among the slag. Most of them quit downloading freebies and read the books that they've paid to purchase."
From sell-through stats, I figure about 1 in every five downloads of my loss-leaders gets read. However, even the readers who downloaded a bunch of freebies will get a notice if they try to download a freebie again that they already downloaded the freebie.
So.. there's a saying in marketing that people need to see something at least three times before they buy (or something like that), and I think that once someone tries to download a freebie that they downloaded before, they are remembered that something in the story/blurb/cover must have attracted them to download the freebie, and that repetition might actually result in the reader actually sampling the freebie.
Harini wrote: "You make a persuasive case for self publishing, Martyn. However, I doubt if most self-published writers can say they turned down a Big Five contract to be independent. For most writers, that external validation (a publisher's contract) is the only thing that assures us that our writing is not mere self indulgence."I agree, Harini, but once a publisher offers you a contract, that external validation has been extended.
I didn't like the restrictions the contracts posed on me, and the ROI didn't seem all that favorable to me, so I tried to negotiate better terms. However, as a new author, I didn't have the clout to get what I wanted, and I didn't like what I was offered, so I turned down the contracts.
While that decision may be considered subjective (some authors will consider me an idiot for not agreeing to their terms), the validation offered was not subjective. If my work wasn't commercially viable, they wouldn't have offered me a contract.
I had been reading and writing for a long time when they offered me the contract, so their validation was a confirmation of what I suspected, but it also strengthened my desire to share my work with my audience. My nightmare was that the first book would bomb in the first six months, and that a publisher would allow it to go out of print while retaining the right for several years, while I had an incomplete series on my hands.
So, with the validation in my pocket, I turned to self-publishing and I don't regret my decision. I had hopes that it would be easier to get exposure, but I also know that readers enjoy good books, so what I have to do is just add more books to the ones I have, and build up a strong backlist of work, so that once people enjoy one of my books, they will know where to get the other books.
And just hope that satisfied readers will tell their friends about the books so that word-of-mouth will help me to do this for a living.
A.W. wrote: "Ellen wrote: "No subtext; I wanted to know if you've had a good experience with Wattpad - I'd like to try it out for my new work. "Wattpad is an interesting creature. Yes it has a large teen segm..."
I've been niched in literary fiction and historical fiction - one being a harder market than the other, obviously, and would like to offer my latest work, which is a mash-up of both genres. I may try the 'older reader' site you referenced along with Wattpad in your earlier post.
Charmaine,Like you I am a "prolific" writer, publishing around three books a year, unlike you I have never been with publisher and almost certainly never will.
There are some "hard" reasons for this - I keep 70% of all sales, decide how and when to promote and own all the covers. The soft reasons are around control. I also write for business readers and work with clients. I have no control over anything and that drives me crazy.
I write part time and make roughly the US average income from it. If you are thinking of taking the self-publishing route I would be happy to show you the path I took. My books now publish with enough pre-sales to be proftable at launch and if you want to be commercial on e-books I think that should be a target.
Scott
Ellen wrote: "I have a secular job as a paralegal. That supports my family. I've always written, and I've received awards for my writing. What I don't have time for is the marketing and promotion right now. ..."I have to agree with Ellen. Writers want to be read, and sometimes that's
enough. We all know of authors who churn out so many books for financial
gains, but before long those writers stop producing quality. Yes, we all
know who they are, no need to mention them.
Ellen has a following because she wants people to enjoy her writing, and
I'll bet she puts more time into her writing because of that. One day,
hopefully soon more people will discover her work, it will go viral, and
she will not only have the satisfaction of putting out quality work, but
the satisfaction of driving to work in a Maserati.
Randall wrote: "Ellen wrote: "I have a secular job as a paralegal. That supports my family. I've always written, and I've received awards for my writing. What I don't have time for is the marketing and promotio..."Thanks for your kind words, Randall. Truth be told, I'm more of a "Mini Cooper" woman than a Maserati. As it happens, I was reading one of the well-known prolific, well-paid, authors today and found more typos in the chapter than the first draft of the demand letter I was proofreading for one of the attorneys before lunch. The quality of writing was mediocre. But he's getting paid loads of money and in our society that is the hallmark of success. I, however, will not throw in the towel, or in this case, the tablet.
That's what I love to hear. Never give up. Make that towel a beach towel..
Scott wrote: "Charmaine,Like you I am a "prolific" writer, publishing around three books a year, unlike you I have never been with publisher and almost certainly never will.
There are some "hard" reasons fo..."
good for you! Inspirational words and encouraging. Thank you.
I too am an Indie author and learned as I went the many follies of how to do it better.
I wrote four books and happily so, sell every month. Can I buy a cup of coffee on that? No, but knowing my books are enjoyed and the non-ficton, helpful, that is plenty at this time. But a latte paid for will be nice when that day comes.
Hannah wrote: "Actually, I have found many decent books for free and a few from popular authors as well. They are a diamond in the ruff, but to me, they are worth looking for. I read every book that I download, e..."Thats great to hear!
It's been greatly interesting reading your comments on going with a publisher vs self-publishing. All great, in depth comments which I have learned valuable information - thank you. What do you think of trying for an agent? Firstly, wouldn't they only take you on if they thought they'd be able to promote you with success in mind?I'm not all about the profits, either, although I do sound like I am from my original comment. I merely would like to be able to earn more money so that I could pay for the RWA conference I'll be attending. LOL. - and then maybe cut down a day at work so I can spend more time writing - more time spent writing is more time building up books and a portfolio - also I'd be able to arrange my time to suit the kids timetable. That's a long term goal. I absolutely love writing - the whole process. That is the first and foremost thing I'm concerned about.
In the meantime since posting my down-in-the-dumps post, I have had two more books accepted through two different publishers which is a great shot in the arm for me, although they are e-books, which seem the hardest to move and to create cut-through. I'm working on my marketing and to be honest I do that for work - although it's harder marketing yourself as a brand rather then a faceless product or service. I'm still a bit shaky on the whole 'I'm a brand thing' I guess.
As it stands, I have 6 published books and 4 more to come out - one in July. I thought it might be good timing to search for an honest agent and aim for a larger print publisher in the US - Aust is a creative backwater. If you're not in accounting or finance forget it. I can't work that way as I'm a creative person and always have been. At the moment, I still think print outdoes e-books although the gap is closing for sure. As most of the larger print publishers only accept agented submissions, wouldn't it be logical to see if someone is interested?
Is anyone out there working with an agent, or are there any good or bad stories I should hear about before I go down this route?
Charmaine wrote: "What do you think of trying for an agent? Firstly, wouldn't they only take you on if they thought they'd be able to promote you with success in mind?"Seeking an agent is entirely a personal decision but be aware agents don't promote or market your work. They take on what they believe they can sell to a larger publisher. There is a statistic floating around that only approximately 1% of querying writers will go on to receive an offer of representation from an agent. There is also a chance that the agent might not be able to sell your manuscript, or it might sell with a very low advance. Or it could sell to a small e-only press that takes unsolicited submissions anyway.
Charmaine, how much time you can put into sending out queries and knocking on publishing house doors? If you can eke out the time in between the kids' schedules, your work schedule and your personal time, and you're patient, you may want to keep at it. If you'd rather trust an agent with the task, go for it. I toyed with the idea before I was picked up by a traditional publisher years ago, but it was the one thing I never followed through. I wish you success however you go - and good luck with RWA! It's a great organization.
< i>Charmaine wrote: "Hi guys - I know the road to success is hard. I know that and I have been toiling away at the grindstone. I'm trying my best to promote myself, get new books written and promote the books that are ..."I just want to add that although the economy is suppose to be doing better the sales are down across the board. My Book always does better because of book signings. And the online add does not work..... check also that your reviews have not been sabotaged. Some people do everything they can to be in the top 100 even writing bad reviews to edge their success. There was an error in my book before it was corrected somebody wrote a negative review which affected my sales saying nothing about the content. The error is corrected but some damage accord.
A friend of mine also had the same experience....
Ellen wrote: "If you'd rather trust an agent with the task, go for it. I toyed with the idea before I was picked up by a traditional publisher years ago, but it was the one thing I never followed through. I wish you success however you go - and good luck with RWA! It's a great organization. i>
Hi Ellen - thanks for your comment - I had hoped to find an agent that could take me before a big publisher, otherwise how do you present your books to them when the large publishers don't accept unsolicited submissions? - And yes - I LOVE the RWA - they are a fun and clever group of ladies :-)
Charmaine wrote: "thanks for your comment - I had hoped to find an agent that could take me before a big publisher, otherwise how do you present your books to them when the large publishers don't accept unsolicited submissions?"Assuming you receive an offer of rep from an agent there is NO guarantee your book would sell to a Big 5. Personally I'm seeing a number of agented writers end up with their books sold to small imprints, many who take unsolicited submissions anyway. That's the risk you take. Either way, an agent/publisher is unlikely to do any marketing, that responsibility falls on the authors head.
A side point here, I assume you are talking about querying agents with a new, unpublished manuscript, as they will not take previously published books unless you have significant sales (over 20,000 units).
Hi, a good friend of mine has just had a book accepted by a small publishing house. Although he has an agent, it was my friend who had to find the publisher. The agent brought value during the negotiation.That tells me that having an agent is not the end of the story and does not mean automatic access to publishers.
My fifth book just went live on Amazon and I must admit, I cannot imagine working with either an agent or publisher, largely because of royalties: 70% of something is a lot more than 15% of nothing.
I have heard many stories of authors being asked to sign contracts where their royalty is NET of publisher costs, without any definition of what "net" means.
With the big five publishers now being outstripped on both number of books sold, and earnings, it is hard to see why most authors should not stick to self publishing.
I am highly sceptical of almost all marketing promises (I am a marketing person by profession) The spend, or time required to make any impact is huge so I see the barrier to awareness as being too big to tackle easily.
Scott wrote: "Hi, a good friend of mine has just had a book accepted by a small publishing house. Although he has an agent, it was my friend who had to find the publisher. The agent brought value during the nego..."I agree with you, Scott. Why give an agent 15% if you have to do everything yourself. When I looked for an agent, I read about several of them who would only take you on if you were prepared to work your butt off advertising your book. And they rake in 15% , and then you get very little from the publisher. Self publish, do the work and then let word of mouth take over. In the long run you'll feel so much better with 70%, total creative control and no one skimming off your hard work. Just make sure you have an excellent cover and a good editor.
Lots of great answers and things to think about. By what you've said, all the work goes on the authors head anyway so why not self-publish. - and an excellent cover goes a long way. I agree Randall. I've looked at updating my covers but the publisher won't let me - grrr. I suggested I'd even pay for them myself knowing that the current covers don't sell my books very well at all - and I have supplied the covers I want - but they shut me down on that suggestion. Very annoying.
Charmaine wrote: "Lots of great answers and things to think about. By what you've said, all the work goes on the authors head anyway so why not self-publish. - and an excellent cover goes a long way. I agree Randall..."Just think, Charmaine, when your next (self-published) book goes global, you can send them a card and tell them thanks for helping me decide to do it my way.
Charmaine wrote: "Lots of great answers and things to think about. By what you've said, all the work goes on the authors head anyway so why not self-publish. - and an excellent cover goes a long way. I agree Randall..."A couple points to remember if you self-publish:
1. The book market is so badly glutted with books, they have little or no value, and an additional 6 to 8 thousand self-published books enter the market every week.
2. Without a substantial advertising budget, you will not be able to make your book discoverable. This will be your business and you better be prepared to spend time and money on extensive promotion.
Just a couple things to think about.
Not every publisher puts all the work on the author. I do not have an agent. My publisher expects me to spend my time writing.
Christine wrote: "Charmaine wrote: "Lots of great answers and things to think about. By what you've said, all the work goes on the authors head anyway so why not self-publish. - and an excellent cover goes a long wa..."Christine,
Would you tell us the name of your publisher. I think many of us would like to know.
Randall wrote: "Christine wrote: "Charmaine wrote: "Lots of great answers and things to think about. By what you've said, all the work goes on the authors head anyway so why not self-publish. - and an excellent co..."Looking at her book, it appears that she is published by Samhain.
I have a good friend who has been published by Samhain. They are a small, independent press with a good reputation.
Samhain is one of the best from what I've heard, too.
Adverts (the little tgat I do) didnt help me With sales..
I am published by Samhain Publishing, Ltd. Cincinnati, Ohio. I'm very impressed with this publisher - I have one of the top horror editors and an amazing support team of staff and fellow writers. The promotion I do is my choice, and will never take over my writing. They are not alone. I found quite a few reputable publishers in my research. Many have open submissions and do not require agents. Instead of grabbing the first publisher to show interest - research them and send your stuff to people you want to work with. Talk to other writers who are traditionally published and happy. Have them let you know when their publisher is accepting submissions.
I've been in the business world for too long. I never intended to ever self-publish. Money and control never ensure success and the self-published market was a disaster - supply and demand were so far out of wack it was truly scary. I wanted to write and decided the only way I would publish would be traditionally, but it does take patience.
I'm currently published with Escape publishing which is an e-book arm of Harlequin. They tend to like my contemporary romances best. I have just been accepted with Crimson Romance, a e-book arm of Avon and they like my paranormal romances best. Maybe it's just a time thing - work on getting my name out there with each book and chip away at it.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "I think that you are getting a lot of answers to a question that you didn't ask, so I'm going to try to help you answer the question that I think you are actually asking.It used to be that there ..."
Charmaine thanks for starting this thread. Moonlight reader - thanks for your comments. It is a real eye-opener. I'm a lawyer and desperately wish to give up lawyering and become a full time writer. Unfortunately, the sales from my single self-published novel isn't enough to sustain my lifestyle. I have three more completed novels that I haven't published yet. I was seriously toying with giving up my day job and spending my time editing and publishing the rest of my novels. While I maybe able to eke out a living by selling four books, I know it would be a struggle. But the most difficult part with giving a perfectly good well-paying full time job is the risk. Like most Lawyers I'm risk averse. I can't stop writing either, regardless of the money I make. My family has come to accept that I spend all my spare typing away on my laptop like a feverish dervish. None of my friends know why I'm so busy at weekends or evenings. I know I'm not the next J.K.Rowling. I know I would be miserable if I didn't write. I'm happy writing. With a small reader base and book sales going up on a curve rather than a mad jump, I am satisfied that are there readers out there that would pay money to read my book. The money in itself is not important but signifies an appreciation of my writing skills.
Yeah Im a journalist with a local paper and the sale of my two short stories, despite them being in the top 100 of its categories at times, was miniscule compared to what I earned now.
India wrote: " I'm happy writing. With a small reader base and book sales going up on a curve rather than a mad jump, I am satisfied that are there readers out there that would pay money to read my book. The money in itself is not important but signifies an appreciation of my writing skills..."Keep at it, India. I understand from this post that writing for you is a joy and keeps you going. Keep at it!
Yes - it is all about the joy. I find that no-one but other authors really understand why we keep writing day and night - even my husband scratches his head at the hours I spend writing. It is just so fulfilling - getting out that idea, manipulating that plot, developing those characters and the final breath when the book is finished. The sense of complete and utter satisfaction looking at a hundred pages or so in 10% reduction in word, all laid out like that. I could almost say it's an addiction, and by today's standards, it's a healthy one :-)
Spot-on, Charmaine. Truly an addiction. While you are working on a novel it rides you bare-back, relentlessly driving you to the edge of insanity. Typing the words 'the end' then invokes a condition similar to post-partum depression. The only medication for this is to start another one.
I sometimes wonder whether it is a blessing or a curse.
True - I often start the next book on the same day as I finish!
You have to be (fairly) prolific to succeed as a self-publisher. A book every 6-9 months seems to work fine for most authors.I'm branching out into shorter work in a different genre that I'll probably keep Amazon only for a while to get traction on Kindle Unlimited.
Thank you, Harini!