What are we reading? 20/11/2023

[Robert]

Berkley wrote: "Robert wrote: "
I've enjoyed Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy and Michener's The Caine Mutiny as World War II novels; Grossman's Life and Fate, with the Battle of Stalingrad as its hub, is also a go..."

Hmm, a shorter book? Tadeusz Borowski's This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen is a collection of short stories about camps-- Auschwitz, then refugee camps after the war. The title story is short and harrowing. Milosz's The Captive Mind has a chapter, Beta, with insightful discussion of Borowski and his work.

[Robert]

I was able to post in the Guardian book section for the first time in many months. (The system vetoed every user name I suggested.)

[giveusaclue]

AB76 wrote: ".big long novels are not my thing in last 4-5 years but i need to go for a few 600 pagera"

Quality not quantity surely AB.

Are you enjoying the cold? Not so frosty here this morning but quite misty and dank.

[giveusaclue]

Berkley wrote: "What are considered the greatest WWII novels, since the subject has arisen?"

Don't know about the best but I remember reading many decades ago.

The Naked Island

the author was captured by the Japanese and the book is his autobiography of the time he spent in the prison camps. A harrowing book.

Has anyone read any of Max Hastings books about WWII? I haven't but they get good reviews.

[giveusaclue]

Having a change from a diet of crime I have just started reading The Hollow Crown by Eliot A. Cohen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_A...

I am only 28 pages in but the idea of the book is relating Shakespeare's characters, their rise to , development and fall out of, power and how it affects their characters and how these historical characters can be compared with modern day political figures.

I think that is the best way I can describe it at this point in my progress. I will come back to you all when I have finished reading it.

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: ".big long novels are not my thing in last 4-5 years but i need to go for a few 600 pagera"

Quality not quantity surely AB.

Are you enjoying the cold? Not so frosty here this morning..."

its lovely, its always good once the sun is no longer a factor and the days are nice and short

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Robert wrote: "
I've enjoyed Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy and Michener's The Caine Mutiny as World War II novels; Grossman's Life and Fate, with the Battle of Stalingrad as its h..."

Fires on the plain by Shohei Ooka(1951) is an important Japanese WW2 novel, set in the Phillipines as things fall apart for the occupying Japanese. Its haunting and brilliant

[CCCubbon]

I posted this over on WWR yesterday. Maybe it belongs in words but I wondered if anyone had any comments.
I am reading the second Quirke book by John Banville, The Silver Swan , set in Dublin in the fifties, again with Quirke as depressed as usual. I like the way Banville describes people and places.

This short extract caught my attention today;

She was taken by his boyishness, or his pretence of it. He had a repertoire of exclamations—gosh, crikey, crumbs—that she supposed he had got from Billy Bunter books or the like, for these words and his way of tossing them about so casually were the stuff of public-school life, and Leslie White, she felt sure, had never seen the inside, or possibly even the outside, of such an institution.

This zoomed my memory back to the television series called Billy Bunter ( I never read the books) - the fat boy in the school blazer (who was really an adult actor playing a child). I remember finding it rather tainted with nastiness but it was a popular series as were the books.

It was those words - gosh, crikey, crumbs - once heard so frequently that jogged . Others such as Cor blimey or Gordon Bennett seem to have become largely lost today and it seems to me that swear words particularly the f word have taken their place. I don’t think these once common words were particularly in use mainly in public schools, they were generally common.

[[deleted user]]

CCCubbon wrote: "...This zoomed my memory back to the television series called Billy Bunter "

I have to confess that I say gosh, crumbs, and especially crikey, quite often, and not always ironically. I’d forgotten about Billy Bunter, which I suppose is the source, as I was never at public school. At the time I found it hugely funny – the TV version, not the books, which I don’t remember reading. Before long I moved on to the immortal Molesworth.

I also occasionally say Gordon Bennett (a substitute for Gor Blimey?). There’s an episode of The Sweeney when Denis Waterman comes into a room with about a hundred budgerigars in a cage. In the second before he speaks I said to my (American) wife, he’s going to say Gordon Bennett, which he duly did.

[MK]

giveusaclue wrote: "Having a change from a diet of crime I have just started reading The Hollow Crown by Eliot A. Cohen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_A...

I am only 28 pages in but the idea of the book i..."

Clue - I look forward for further news. Both my libraries (aren't reciprocal agreements great) have the book.

[MK]

Robert wrote: "Berkley wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Two american reads i am enjoying. one is The White Album by Joan Didion, which in some ways seems to be a study of the Californian condition from 1968 to 1979. Didion i..."

May I recommend a WW2 favorite? The Kappillan of Malta by Nicholas Monsarrat? I've taken to searching out a few Malta books ever since I visited there in the mid-2000s, Remember, though, that it can be a Kleenex book for some.

And I now have waiting for me at the library - A Death in Malta: An Assassination and a Family's Quest for Justice.

[MK]

AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: ".big long novels are not my thing in last 4-5 years but i need to go for a few 600 pagera"

Quality not quantity surely AB.

Are you enjoying the cold? Not so fros..."

Want to come to Seattle? I have a basement (kinda cool) room waiting for someone who appreciates the sun rising at 7:38 and setting at 4:19 today. It's the 4:19 part that gets to me. It means I'm ready for bed at 7ish!

And we are doing sun today with a high of 50°F so I'll be raking a few more Oak leaves 'tout suite' because it's rain and wind (and probably flooding in some places) the rest of the week.

But fear not as I have Rennie Airth's first John Madden to pass the time with while I rake. Nothing like a good police procedural to keep one company.

[Berkley]

MK wrote: "May I recommend a WW2 favorite? The Kappillan of Malta by Nicholas Monsarrat? I've taken to searching out a few Malta books ever since I visited there in the mid-2000s, Remember, though, that it can be a Kleenex book for some...."

Thanks for the suggestion and to everyone else as well of course. I was considering Monsarrat's earlier book, The Cruel Sea, but will add this one too.

[Berkley]

The discussions about Lewis Carroll and about Simenon and other French writing have me wondering, has anyone here ever tried reading Carroll in French translation? I'm curious because the wordplay, humour, and overall tone of the Alice books seem as if they'd be difficult to transfer to another language. I wonder about this with other English writing too, particularly those with a strongly distinct style or narrative voice - Dickens, for example, I wonder how he would come across in French?

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Robert wrote: "
I've enjoyed Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy and Michener's The Caine Mutiny as World War II novels; Grossman's Life and Fate, with the Battle of Stal..."

I've read Ooka's Fires on the Plain several times. Excellent book that I should have mentioned.

Of course, The Caine Mutiny was written by Herman Wouk.

[Robert]

MK wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: ".big long novels are not my thing in last 4-5 years but i need to go for a few 600 pagera"

Quality not quantity surely AB.

Are you enjoying the cold..."

Here in the wilds of Auburn, we have been enjoying rain and wind, along with a slight rise in temperature.

[giveusaclue]

Robert wrote: ".Here in the wilds of Auburn, we have been enjoying rain and wind, along with a slight rise in temperature."


Here in S. Derbyshire I woke up to a couple of inches of snow. We get very little in our town compared to even just a mile or two away. But rain is forecast so no doubt it will not last. 🤞

[scarletnoir]

Berkley wrote: "I'm reminded that I've been putting off another big American WWII novel for a while now, Norman Mailer's The Naked and the Dead (500+pp).

What are considered the greatest WWII novels, since the subject has arisen?"

I read the Mailer a long time ago (late teens or early 20s) and liked it a lot at the time. Can't comment further than that, especially not about 'American' WW2 novels... I'm not a great one for 'war' books, usually - and besides, what does that mean?

Are we talking about novels which give an individual's eye-view of conflict on the ground? A vast strategic novel setting out some historical campaign? Or a novel setting out the effect on civilian communities? The subject is vast and the perspectives and approaches almost endless...

AB refers to Sartre's 'Roads to Freedom' trilogy, starting with The Age of Reason - that's good on the effect on certain French civilians and intellectuals in the run-up and during the war, though hardly your 'typical' French people iirc (again, ages since I read them). I recently read a whole series giving a Berliner perspective - David Downing's 'station' series starting with Zoo Station - an adopted Berliner of American/English parentage experiences the rise of the Nazis and the war. As a journalist, he starts as a reporter and later is drawn into acts of resistance and espionage. Pretty good - it has the feel of a well-researched series, with (of course) some improbable actions and outcomes. You can say the same about Philip Kerr's excellent Bernie Gunther series, where Berlin cop and closet anti-Nazi Bernie tries to solve murders without becoming too compromised. Later, he meets and 'assists' a number of prominent Nazis, reporting on their war crimes and general behaviour. Good fictionalised accounts on those. March Violets is the first... as with Downing, I felt the series got better as it progressed, overall.

[[deleted user]]

giveusaclue wrote [204]: ".. Has anyone read any of Max Hastings books about WWII? I haven't but they get good reviews."

As it happens, I recently re-read one of his first, Battle of Britain, co-written with Len Deighton. It tells you everything you want to know, and has outstanding graphics. It’s the Spitfire that takes the glory but it was the Hurricane that was the workhorse, accounting for 80% of enemy aircraft destroyed. It includes the historical background, the competing strategies, and the ground defences. The total number of British pilots lost during the Battle was 530, which is grievous enough. During the later bombing offensive Bomber Command could lose that number of air-crew in a single night.

I’ve also read his single-volume history of the whole war, All Hell Let Loose (US title, Inferno). I thought it was excellent – cogent, well-paced, and even-handed in describing the war-aims and strategy of each side. But, as any worthwhile account must be, very grim.

While I have read Winston’s War: Churchill 1940-1945 I have to say it has left no impression, not even when I look at the fulsome UK reviews on the back of the US edition from Anthony Beevor, Andrew Roberts, Piers Brendon, Jonathan Sumption and others. Apparently it is “subtly revisionist.” Who cares, really. When you’ve read Churchill’s own account, especially those first two incomparable volumes, everything else is overshadowed.

[AB76]

MK wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: ".big long novels are not my thing in last 4-5 years but i need to go for a few 600 pagera"

Quality not quantity surely AB.

Are you enjoying the cold..."

sounds heavenly, tho 50f is a little warm..lol

[Gpfr]

scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "What are considered the greatest WWII novels..."

David Downing's 'station' series starting with Zoo Station
Philip Kerr's excellent Bernie Gunther series"

I second both of those.
I posted not long ago about Sarah Gainham's novels:
the trilogy: Night Falls on the City, A Place in the Country and Private Worlds, about an actress and her group of friends in Vienna from 1938 until after the war.

To the Opera Ball, the aftermath of WWII and 25 years later ...

The Cold Dark Night: a young man goes to Berlin to cover the Four Power Conference and gets involved in murder and espionage.

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "Berkley wrote: "Robert wrote: "
I've enjoyed Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy and Michener's The Caine Mutiny as World War II novels; Grossman's Life and Fate, with the B..."

so many incidents are still vivid from that novel at maybe 16 years remove, Natsume Soseki wrote a short novella about the Russo-Japanese War as did Andreyev( if anyone fancies novels of obscure wars, though both sort of deal with the effects of being a combatant after the war with flashbacks.)

[AB76]

Gpfr wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "What are considered the greatest WWII novels..."

David Downing's 'station' series starting with Zoo Station
Philip Kerr's excellent Bernie Gunther series"

I s..."

i'm, wary of the Kerr and downing novels, though they are about an interesting era, neither are German and i wonder if i would truly enjoy them, they also are formulaic crime novels really.

Saying that i did enjoy the Majek Krajewski novels set in Breslau(now Wroclaw). They are very much in that modern trend for formulaic crime but something was better about that.

Scarlet or GP, which is the best Downing or Kerr novels to start with, or just the best? i will order one of them and see how i go

[MK]

giveusaclue wrote: "Robert wrote: ".Here in the wilds of Auburn, we have been enjoying rain and wind, along with a slight rise in temperature."


Here in S. Derbyshire I woke up to a couple of inches of snow. We get v..."

I wish I knew how to imbed a photo here. I was cruising FB and found that Cromford had a little more snow than you - Clue. I've uploaded a photo in the photo section.

[MK]

AB76 wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "What are considered the greatest WWII novels..."

David Downing's 'station' series starting with Zoo Station
Philip Kerr's excellent Bernie Gunther..."

I know I wasn't asked, but that has never stopped me. The David Downing series is more Berlin-centric. Zoo Station is the best one to begin with.

Philip Kerr starts out in Berlin, but heads out over the world later. I've just downloaded March Violets for a re-listen. I remember one of Kerr's that described the massacre in Katyn Forest which I hard to shut because of the horrors described.

I will also put in a plug for Alan Furst's Spies of the Balkans, and pardon me while I look for my copy as it is not where it is supposed to be.

[AB76]

MK wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "Berkley wrote: "What are considered the greatest WWII novels..."

David Downing's 'station' series starting with Zoo Station
Philip Kerr's excellent B..."

thanks MK

[Berkley]

I think every question asked here can be taken as a question open to everyone - can it not?

[MK]

Berkley wrote: "MK wrote: "May I recommend a WW2 favorite? The Kappillan of Malta by Nicholas Monsarrat? I've taken to searching out a few Malta books ever since I visited there in the mid-2000s, Remember, though,..."

Here's a Malta tidbit - the whole country (then a British colony) was the recipient of the George Cross because of the privations of being in the line of fire during WW2.

[giveusaclue]

MK wrote: "I wish I knew how to imbed a photo here. I was cruising FB and found that Cromford had a little more snow than you - Clue. I've uploaded a photo in the photo section."
.

Great photo. Cromford is about 28 miles from me but a lot higher up.

[giveusaclue]

Berkley wrote: "I think every question asked here can be taken as a question open to everyone - can it not?"

Of course, never thought otherwise.

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "Berkley wrote: "I think every question asked here can be taken as a question open to everyone - can it not?"

Of course, never thought otherwise."

same.....everyone welcome to comment

[Robert]

Russell wrote: "giveusaclue wrote [204]: ".. Has anyone read any of Max Hastings books about WWII? I haven't but they get good reviews."

As it happens, I recently re-read one of his first, Battle of Britain, co-w..."

While not a classic, "Sea of thunder : four commanders and the last great naval campaign" is a good narrative of the last (and biggest) clash of surface ships at Leyte Gulf, 1944, and has interesting biographies of four commanders. It's like a play with a prologue and three acts: the Japanese decision to commit almost all of their navy's capital ships to one big battle, the Center Force's ambush by US submarines, and then Act One: battleships versus air power, Act Two battleships fighting before dawn, Act Three pursuit of small aircraft carriers and smaller escort ships by a battle fleet.