What are we reading? 20/11/2023

[[deleted user]]

Berkley wrote: "... I don't think this led to a general falling out between the two and they continued to correspond...So the dispute with Murray over Don Juan can be seen as an aspect of that societal shift.

Very interesting, thanks.

I had a look at Fiona MacCarthy’s life, and the disagreement does seem to have been fairly terminal. Murray already had doubts about the first two cantos, for which sales though not bad were still short of expectations. They lost Byron his female readership: the book could not be left out on a lady’s work-table. The essential problem, as related by FM, was that it showed women “taking the sexual initiative”. That, I must say, I don’t actually remember. When Murray heard the following cantos (read to him by B’s business manager) he wrote to say he found them “so outrageously shocking that I would not publish them.” He pleaded, “For heavens sake revise them.” Byron of course would do not omit or soften a thing. There was some continuing contact – Murray published Werner, and as you say some correspondence was exchanged – but in effect, on FM's version, it was farewell.

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Bill wrote: "

A taste of the discourse engaged in by the American left. Or is this a right-wing troll?"

never really "got" thanksgiving but i see it as primarily religious or secular..."

its sad really....debate and opinion has become a hazardous exercise...i feel like my generation is (just), the last where university culture was open to enquiry, debate and opinions. I would hate to be a university student with opinions now, it would be very fraught with danger, if these opinions did not conform

The Guardian sadly is immersed in this world, hence i am reluctant to comment on anything now, as its such a lottery and toeing the party line is so key. I'm fairly progressive and left wing too, its crazy that probably the only respectable liberal, progressive newspaper in the UK, is silencing so much comment

[scarletnoir]

Bill wrote: "A taste of the discourse engaged in by the American left. Or is this a right-wing troll?"

Whether or not the celebration has been co-opted at some time in the way mentioned in that quote, it's clear (assuming Wikipedia is not complete bollocks) that the festival has many and varied histories, so to disentangle them all and identify the day with one specific 'cause' seems absurd. In particular,

The more familiar Thanksgiving precedent accompanied by feasting is traced to the Pilgrims and Puritans who emigrated from England in the 1620s and 1630s. They brought their previous tradition of Days of Fasting and Days of Thanksgiving with them to New England. The 1621 Plymouth, Massachusetts thanksgiving was prompted by a good harvest. The Pilgrims celebrated this with the Wampanoags, a tribe of Native Americans who, along with the last surviving Patuxet, had helped them get through the previous winter by giving them food in that time of scarcity, in exchange for an alliance and protection against the rival Narragansett tribe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksg...

That the festival is at times claimed to be secular and at others religious confirms its heterogeneous sources - IMO - but I'm no expert on these things.

[scarletnoir]

Gpfr wrote: "Here's a quiz on identifying short stories from their description:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...

I got 5 / 5 — some good guesswork!"

Unfortunately, it seems impossible to tackle this without paying for a subscription!

[scarletnoir]

MK wrote: "Until my local newspaper reminded me, I had forgotten that today was the 60th year since JFK was assassinated in Dallas. I have downloaded Fredrik Logevall's 1910 book:JFK: Coming of Age ..."

To the best of my recollection, I heard the news in the very room I'm sitting in now - the house where I grew up, and whence I returned in my 40s. A TV programme was interrupted... We were all very shocked, especially as JFK was seen (at the time) as something of a white knight... his reputation has been somewhat tarnished since.

I'm disinclined to believe any of the many conspiracy theories which have appeared, and in any case - even if any were true - we'll never know. It feels like a waste of time to sweat it. (Conspiracy theories in more recent times linked to other events have simply reinforced my sceptical tendency.)

I did enjoy - as a piece of fiction - James Ellroy's American Tabloid - which gives a potted history of the USA leading up to and including the assassination, but focusing on a number of criminals and FBI agents. Superbly realised - before Ellroy jumped the shark and started to indulge in self-pardy (stylistically speaking).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America....

[scarletnoir]

MK wrote: "Haven't gotten enough of Mick Herron yet? Here's an NYT gift link - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/19/bo......"

Thanks for that - a lovely interview. (You may also be the person who got me into Herron in the first place - and if so, many thanks!) I mentioned him in passing during lunch with the family today - his 'stand-in' Boris Johnson politician - and later on Bojo himself appears in the series, so it's "not the same person". I was wondering if the appearance of the real-life arsehole was to cover Herron against the possibility of a libel suit... ;-)

[Gpfr]

scarletnoir wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "Here's a quiz on identifying short stories from their description

"it seems impossible to tackle this without paying for a subscription!..."

You can register for free — I have.

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "MK wrote: "Until my local newspaper reminded me, I had forgotten that today was the 60th year since JFK was assassinated in Dallas. I have downloaded Fredrik Logevall's 1910 book:JFK: Coming of Age..."

I purchased both Ellroys and De Lillos novels about JFK at same time about a decade ago and chose De Lillo, never touching Ellroys

Oswalds short life is fascinating, i am not sure about all the conspiracies either but sometimes these things are simply a catalogue of events with human error all over them. Conspiracies offer a security blanket over the natural chaos and chance of human life. Of course SOMEBODY intended to kill JFK but the situation that presented itself in Dallas was a combination of so many un-connected things. If it had been raining, with a roof on the car, would it have happened? Parade cancelled etc etc

[scarletnoir]

Gpfr wrote: "You can register for free — I have"

I'm afraid not. I gave them my email address, as requested - and tried to sign in.

They still wanted my money!

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "I purchased both Ellroys and De Lillos novels about JFK at same time about a decade ago and chose De Lillo, never touching Ellroys".

I don't know what DeLillo's approach was, as I haven't read it - but I don't see how you can "choose" one over the other, since Ellroy's does not purport to be a 'true account'. What it does - brilliantly - is to use history as a framework for a fiction featuring several main characters and many less important ones. After that, Ellroy lost his mojo a bit - IMO, anyway.

There should be no reason to discount either book on historical grounds if one has read the other as far as I can see. I've not read DeLillo because he sounds a bit too long winded for my taste, but I may be wrong about that.

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I purchased both Ellroys and De Lillos novels about JFK at same time about a decade ago and chose De Lillo, never touching Ellroys".

I don't know what DeLillo's approach was, as I hav..."

i guess i tend to avoid crime novelists, so thats why i went for De Lillo as a literary novelist. I had read some Ellroy before and was very dissapointed, crime novels need something special for me to read them

[AB76]

Nuremberg Diary has been a really fascinating read over the last three weeks

I'm about 3/4 of the way through now and every conversation that the author(army psychologist GM Gilbert) had with the Nazi defendants is fascinating. He is a subtle confidant and notices that almost all the Nazi's relish a chance to offload things with him and to talk and discuss politics

They all seem intelligent, that is for sure, i already knew that almost all were graduates and from the middle or upper classes of German society. The only ones who show levels of sub-standard thinking are either due to stupidity(Streicher the anti-semite news editor), mental health issues (hess and ribbentrop) or recent severe ill health (Kaltenbrunner)

Goering dominates the diary but not in the way he would have liked. He is well educated and gregarious, keen to be the centre of attention, shows very little real malice beyond anger at other defendants being slightly flaky or lying. Oddly some of the others feel the trial has galvanised him, instead of the bloated, drug addicted idle head of the Luftwaffe, he is leaner, sharper and more focused.

The "lesser" Nazi's interest me as they have been less quoted or covered. Funk and Fritsche both seem contrite from the early days of the trial, shocked at the holocaust films and aghast at many things. Funk cries a lot while Fritzche is almost like a talking consience of the group after every session in court. Both avoided the death penatly

Frank, the butcher of Poland, was the biggest suprise, converted to Catholicism, he is full of anger and guilt, reading his bible in his cell every day and offering stark, harsh opinions on Nazi folly. He expects to be executed and seems to be lost in a nightmare of faith and penitence.

Conversations are wide ranging, well informed and of some literary merit(Goethe is quoted and discussed). The concept of duty, which Kant wrote a lot on, seems to be a strong moral point, regardless of who the duty obliged the individual to obey, which i think with Kant is always a very tricky idea to put into practice

Its 500 odd pages but well written, Gilbert must have worked on it for a long time , to tie all the loose ends together

[Robert]

MK wrote: "Until my local newspaper reminded me, I had forgotten that today was the 60th year since JFK was assassinated in Dallas. I have downloaded Fredrik Logevall's [book:JFK: Coming of Age ..."

I was in the fifth grade at that time. Our math teacher, Mr. Hein, was leaning against the door, very pale. "The President of the United States has just been shot."

[Robert]

Bill wrote: "Anne wrote: "Did the Alan Lee illustrations ever cross the Atlantic?"

I don't recall seeing them before. They are nice.

Excellent illustration.

After its success with LOTR, Ballantine Books picked up the rights to rep..."

[Berkley]

Russell wrote: "
I had a look at Fiona MacCarthy’s life, and the disagreement does seem to have been fairly terminal. Murray already had doubts about the first two cantos, for which sales though not bad were still short of expectations. They lost Byron his female readership: the book could not be left out on a lady’s work-table. The essential problem, as related by FM, was that it showed women “taking the sexual initiative”. That, I must say, I don’t actually remember. When Murray heard the following cantos (read to him by B’s business manager) he wrote to say he found them “so outrageously shocking that I would not publish them.” He pleaded, “For heavens sake revise them.” Byron of course would do not omit or soften a thing. There was some continuing contact – Murray published Werner, and as you say some correspondence was exchanged – but in effect, on FM's version, it was farewell."

I'm sure you're right. I must have picked up this impression from Moore's book, since that's the last thing about Byron that I've read, but I don't want to blame Moore as it could well be my reading of him that's at fault or my memory of it.

One thing I forgot to mention is that Moore's own words make up only around a third of the book's content, the rest is comprised Byron's own journals and especially his correspondence, plus contributions from other sources.


I'm sure you'll enjoy your re-reading Don Juan as I did mine a few months ago. I'll probably continue to read or re-read a few of his shorter pieces over the coming months, as I did most of the longer ones I wanted to read while I was going through the Moore book. I also have on hand here Medwin's Conversations of Lord Byron, which I should be getting to soon.

[Berkley]

I haven't yet read De Lillo's Cosmopolis or the Ellory book but they're both on my list. One fictional treatment of the era that I found really well done was Norman Mailer's Harlot's Ghost, but it ends with the characters hearing the announcement of the Kennedy assassination on the news, and thus does not cover the assassination itself or its aftermath.

[CCCubbon]

Re Kennedy assassination.

My daughter was six months old, she cried and cried until she could talk and I was walking up and down with her trying to calm her down with the radio on when the news came through.

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "i guess i tend to avoid crime novelists, so thats why i went for De Lillo as a literary novelist."

I'm not sure where or how you draw the line - or make the distinction. As others have pointed out (Bill, probably) 'Crime and Punishment' is a crime story - as is 'Karamazov', come to that. What you mean, I think, is "only" a crime story... and perhaps early Ellroy falls into that category. By the time of the LA Quartet, he was definitely writing also as a 'literary' author... IMHO... and 'American Tabloid' - the first volume of the Underground USA trilogy - was peak Ellroy, since when his style has become more and more extreme to the point of self-parody. His later books are close to incomprehensible.

[[deleted user]]

JFK – I was in the house alone that Friday evening. I was sitting at the dining room table doing my maths homework and enjoying working through the equations. Normally I did all my homework in silence, but that night, perhaps because both my parents were out teaching, I had Radio Luxembourg going in the background. If you were in the UK, this was then the only station anywhere that played pop music. Suddenly, at about 7.40, an announcer came on, cutting into the middle of a song, and said that President Kennedy had been shot and killed in Dallas. I was old enough to know about him and to share in the admiration most British people felt. I was completely shocked. I remember sitting there not moving. I remember the fountain pen in my hand, and the look and feel of the page in my exercise book. After a period of quiet the radio station played Beethoven for the rest of the night.

[Bill]

I remember our 3rd grade teacher coming into class and announcing that the president had been shot and then dismissing school.

I was rather surprised at the shock expressed by the adults around me at the time. I had learned about Lincoln's assassination, and the main square in our town was named after President Garfield (this was before the name might have been confused with that of a comic strip cat), so presidential assassinations seemed to me events that could very well happen.

[giveusaclue]

I was in the kitchen doing the washing up after dinner when I heard. Bit prosaic.

[MK]

scarletnoir wrote: "MK wrote: "Haven't gotten enough of Mick Herron yet? Here's an NYT gift link - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/19/bo......"

Yesterday, I had a appointment that was going to be long with several breaks for me to fill. Since I recently re-read Herron's first Slow Horses, I picked Dead Lions off the shelf. My mind is either a sieve or needs a judicious scrubdown to remove dross, but the only thing I remembered was the death in the beginning that started the caper.

It's amazing (to me anyway) the stuff I missed or elided over the first time around. I won't say any more for fear of spoilers.

However, I do know that nothing like the plot of Dead Lions could have happened in G-Man: J. Edgar Hoover and the Making of the American Century his time. He was only into amassing stuff on his favorite enemies. I remember reading The Burglary: The Discovery of J. Edgar Hoover's Secret FBI - which was darned good - at least a 4-star.

Now that I am thoroughly off track as usual, I also recommend this for a quickish read or listen. https://whyy.org/articles/how-to-brea...

[AB76]

Really interesting to hear where you all were on that day in 1963, when JFK was killed,must remember to ask my parents tonight as we are having a family curry

Sadly i was not in existence in 1963....

[MK]

Recalling the earlier posts about Thanksgiving and after reading the NYT gift link (use 'em or lose 'em) below, I am reminded of all those Confederates who used to line the boulevard in Richmond, VA, (quite a sight) and the individual statues scattered around mostly the South. I make the connection, because they were erected well after the war ended (I won't say 'over' because if doesn't look like it will ever be over).

Here's the link, and with its time gap story included - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/21/us...

[MK]

AB76 wrote: "Really interesting to hear where you all were on that day in 1963, when JFK was killed,must remember to ask my parents tonight as we are having a family curry

Sadly i was not in existence in 1963...."

Consider yourself lucky - just think how much nearer the creaky life stage you would be.

[AB76]

MK wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Really interesting to hear where you all were on that day in 1963, when JFK was killed,must remember to ask my parents tonight as we are having a family curry

Sadly i was not in exist..."

that is a good point MK....i wonder if the Guardian what we are reading average age was younger or older than Ersatz TLS. The Sam era Guardian ofc. I'm really pleased we span birth dates from 1940s to 1970s but do we have any youngsters? Born after 1990?

[MK]

MK wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "MK wrote: "Haven't gotten enough of Mick Herron yet? Here's an NYT gift link - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/19/bo......"

How could I forget - Shirley of 🚕 fame first appears in Dead Lions.

PS - I'm going to see if I can watch the Slow Horse TV season 1 for free. It may take some doing, but it's impossible for me to pay to watch TV - wallet is glued shut.

[MK]

Want a feel-good story? https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23940870...

[MK]

I'm on a roll to use up my gift links.

Interesting take on writing by Nora Roberts (J D Robb) - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/18/bo...

And because we never have enough book recommendations (and only lack the time to read all that we already have waiting), here's what the NY Times says - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...

[MK]

Me again. Don't know if anyone here is into AI in any way - sorry but it's all beyond me - however, here's yet another link for your reading or nail-biting pleasure - https://wapo.st/3utJgJo

[Bill]

MK wrote: "Me again. Don't know if anyone here is into AI in any way - sorry but it's all beyond me - "

I have to say that, after a few desultory attempts at reading the first articles on AI that came to my attention, I now instantly skip any article that has those initials in its headline.

The reports that are trying to get me concerned about AI remind me, in their impenetrability, of earlier stories that tried to convince me of the sound principles underlying cryptocurrency and NFTs as financial investments.

[Robert]

Bill wrote: "I remember our 3rd grade teacher coming into class and announcing that the president had been shot and then dismissing school.

I was rather surprised at the shock expressed by the adults around me..."

We continued school after Mr. Hein told the fifth-grade math class about the JFK assassination. At lunchtime, we boys were already sharing rumors. Hadn't the Vice President been shot, too?

Meanwhile, at the National Guard armory, Dad and the other officers were seriously discussing whether this was an attempted coup d'etat, and what they could do to block the army if a coup was under way. He told me about this years later....

[CCCubbon]

I'm really pleased we span birth dates from 1940s to 1970s but do we have any youngsters? Born after 1990?
Ahem 1930s to…..

[CCCubbon]

I’m reading the first of the Quirke novels Christine Fallsby John Banville - the language is delicious except for the one ‘n’ word which jumped off the page. How haveI missed this before?
It’s like eating a cream cake.

[Berkley]

CCCubbon wrote: "I’m reading the first of the Quirke novels Christine Fallsby John Banville - the language is delicious except for the one ‘n’ word which jumped off the page. How haveI missed this before?
It’s li..."

I had a mixed reaction to the one Banville novel I've read so far, Mefisto, but there was enough there that I still plan to try more. Hadn't thought about the detective series, will keep those in mind.

[CCCubbon]

I read Snow a few years ago, Berkley, liked the writing but story predictable. Didn’t realise that it was part of a series. Then there was a special offer on April in Spain and all made sense.
In Christine Falls there are some lovely descriptions, phrases, that make me think ‘i wish I could write like that’ . Those are the parts I am enjoying. I will try and find an example - here’s where I opened the book today (page 209)

Once outside he turned and made his way down the hill in the direction of the river. The sky was heavy with a seamless weight of putty-coloured cloud that looked to be hardly higher than the rooftops of the houses on either side of the road, and flurries of heavy wet snow scudded before the wind. He turned up his coat collar and pulled low the brim of his hat.

[Berkley]

CCCubbon wrote: "I read Snow a few years ago, Berkley, liked the writing but story predictable. Didn’t realise that it was part of a series. Then there was a special offer on April in Spain and all made sense.
In C..."

I like the passage and feel further encouraged to try the first of the Quirke series. But I'm playing catch-up with detective and crime fiction in general - still in the middle of Ross MacDonald's Archer series that ScarletNoir has been talking about lately, for example - so I will likely read one of Banville's non-genre books first, maybe The Book of Evidence.

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "Bill wrote: "I remember our 3rd grade teacher coming into class and announcing that the president had been shot and then dismissing school.

I was rather surprised at the shock expressed by the adu..."

my parents recalled where they were, mum, then 18, on a phone call to a friend when her mother interrupted to tell her the news. dad, also 18, was going to a unviersity ball and his date met him outside the venue and told him the news. both were totally shocked...

[scarletnoir]

Bill wrote: "I was rather surprised at the shock expressed by the adults around me at the time. I had learned about Lincoln's assassination, and the main square in our town was named after President Garfield..."

I am not certain if I am unusually ignorant of American history, or if this is fairly typical of Brits who never studied history as a subject (beyond the Egyptians) - but although I knew quite a lot about the assassinations of Lincoln and Kennedy, I didn't know anything about Garfield or his death in that manner.

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "Sadly i was not in existence in 1963...."

An 'annus mirabilis' indeed, as Philip Larkin noted... it gave us the Beatles' first no. 1 single and LP, both named 'Please Please Me', both of which I own, natch. A time of enormous excitement... As for the acid-tongued (and older) Larkin:

Annus Mirabilis

Sexual intercourse began
In nineteen sixty-three
(which was rather late for me) -
Between the end of the Chatterley ban
And the Beatles' first LP.

Up to then there'd only been
A sort of bargaining,
A wrangle for the ring,
A shame that started at sixteen
And spread to everything.

Then all at once the quarrel sank:
Everyone felt the same,
And every life became
A brilliant breaking of the bank,
A quite unlosable game.

So life was never better than
In nineteen sixty-three
(Though just too late for me) -
Between the end of the Chatterley ban
And the Beatles' first LP.

[scarletnoir]

CCCubbon wrote: "I’m reading the first of the Quirke novels Christine Fallsby John Banville - the language is delicious except for the one ‘n’ word which jumped off the page. How haveI missed this before?..."

More often than not, we have seen eye to eye on genre books which we've both read... but in this case, my reaction was strongly negative. I wrote this about it in 2022:

"Some time ago, I read the first of the 'Quirke' series - Christine Falls and... hated it. At the time, I commented along these lines:

'A good crime novel needs three elements - decent writing, clear plotting and characters that are more than one-dimensional. Banville scores half a point out of three - he can write grammatically correct sentences, but not interesting ones.'

I went on to point out several absurdities in the plot, and to say that not only would I not read any more by 'Black', but would avoid any novels by 'Banville' as well."

This was in response to a post by Georg, who 'flung with great force' another of Banville/Black's other efforts in the crime genre. As for SydneyH, he said that:
'I believe a writer can't really succeed in a genre they don't respect.'

So, we are the nay-sayers. Banville has many admirers on the Guardian's WWR, though!

Edit: perhaps you can explain to me one of the most puzzling episodes - at one point, Quirke is given a savage beating by two thugs who he recognises. He does not report the incident to the police. Why not? iirc, no explanation was given...

[Gpfr]

In the latest issue of Slightly Foxed, there's an article on Maigret. Fans may be interested to know, if you don't already, that there are fresh translations of all 75(!) Maigret novels available as Penguin paperbacks.

This made me think of you, scarletnoir:

The detail in Simenon's wonderful scene-setting is an important component of the narrative tension. Here is Maigret ascending the stairs towards a fourth-floor apartment, where a woman is about to be found murdered.

The concierge wasn't in her lodge. The stairwell had faux marbled walls and a thick red carpet on the stairs, held in place by brass rods. The building smelled musty, as if it was inhabited by old people who never opened their windows, and it was strangely silent, no hiny of rustling doors as Maigret and Janvier passed. Only on the fourth floor did they hear any noise, and a door opened.

(Maigret at Picratt's)

I don't quite know why, but I've never read any Maigret, and indeed only one book by Simenon, of short stories.

[Bill]

scarletnoir wrote: "I am not certain if I am unusually ignorant of American history, or if this is fairly typical of Brits who never studied history as a subject (beyond the Egyptians) "

Perhaps because I take Americans' ignorance of world history and foreign affairs as a given (not to mention their growing ignorance of American history and affairs as well), I am generally surprised when those in other countries display a more than superficial knowledge of American history and politics.

[Gpfr]

The writer of the article on Maigret writes historical crime novels. I hadn't heard of him or his series before:
Robin Blake, 9 crime mysteries featuring the 18th-century Lancashire coroner, Titus Cragg, and his associate, Dr Luke Fidelis. Does anyone know them?
I'm going to try the first one:

[Paul]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "I am not certain if I am unusually ignorant of American history, or if this is fairly typical of Brits who never studied history as a subject (beyond the Egyptians) "

Perhaps b..."

I've found that Europeans generally don't have much of any idea of American geography or American history. And what little they learn tends to be heavily slanted in their favor (What do you mean that all the slaves were brought over by British/Dutch/Portugese? Why is measles important in settling the colonies? Yeah, I don't know Denver...Chicago....Nashville... they're all kind of in the middle aren't they?). Yeah, they can all find Miami and NYC on the map.

Likewise, at least here in Italy, African history isn't a subject, and it was not a big one for me in the 1980s. What they do know better than Americans is European history, which is a fish in a barrel type situation.

[AB76]

Paul wrote: "Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "I am not certain if I am unusually ignorant of American history, or if this is fairly typical of Brits who never studied history as a subject (beyond the Egyptians)..."

i kinda had a love/hate relationship with the USA as a rebellious teenager, after obviously being heavily influenced by 80s USA film and tv as a kid(though not music which i put down to the strong british music scene), i then turned against everything american from roughly 13 to 19

into my 20s and i started to turn into a slightly more mature person and now in last 15 years, i am deeply into american culture and the difference between the states, especially the history of the development of the great move west etc

Whats remarkable about the USA is how well documented everything is from 1776 onwards and pretty well before too. You can dive deeper into many, maym more state records and documents, maps, censues info about the USA, then you can of the far older UK. (Europe is also very good on this, it seems somewhere the UK either rbinned, torched or sold many of its cultural documents and records)

Free material is what i refer to make it clear,m if you pay, you can read more about the UK. which i dont like at all. State documents should be free and accessible. I could in 5 secs access the USA census of 1861 and find out so much, the UK census of 1861 would involve lots of payment and finding really tiny details and no strategic stuff at all

[MK]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "I am not certain if I am unusually ignorant of American history, or if this is fairly typical of Brits who never studied history as a subject (beyond the Egyptians) "

Perhaps b..."

Don't even think of talking to me about Americans and history. I just get disgusted. I don't know if you have NextDoor (ND) where you are, but it's a full fledged (although I hear they are laying of staff now - somewhere in Silicon Valley, I think). We have rather an active on-line group locally.

Here's my latest eye-roller. Some years ago the electorate here decided to split the city into district representation (many thought the downtown business folks got too much attention). After the last US Census, the districts had to be reshuffled to correct population shifts. Enter the warriors for the 'underserved' which meant targeting the neighborhood I live in - because it's mostly single family with a really expensive area jutting into Puget Sound (a lot more is paid in real estate taxes if you have a view, and you usually have a big house to go with the taxes). The other thing about this neighborhood is that it is a peninsula with three bridge entrances/exits over a railroad marshalling yard. So even though there are a couple more exclusive (landwise) areas, none are so visible as mine. (I don't have a view.)

The redistricting process involved citizens mostly appointed by elected officials. Then - enter the warriors for the underserved. That's where my neighborhood got split between 2 districts. Grrr! This happened last year - in 2022.

Now to my story. I'm checking in on ND the first weekend in November just before the Tuesday election day and find a post where someone has just opened his ballot (we are all-mail in here) and can't understand why he doesn't find the District 7 candidates name listed. After all the local hoo-rah - there was a lot - he didn't even know that the neighborhood had been split, and he had been moved to District 6. I was beside myself. No newspapers, no local TV in that household for sure.

So current events that directly affect some just flow by without recognition. History? Give me break.

[Gpfr]

@Tam

Yesterday my art history class was for you! — L' art du livre illuminé au Moyen Age à Paris.


From the Psautier dit du Saint Louis

The speaker was the Conservateur en chef of manuscripts from the BnF. In his introduction, he said their collections are gigantic and the figures he went on to give showed that this was not an exaggeration. The BnF has 40 million objects — not only books & manuscripts (jewellery, globes, medals & coins, costumes, prints ...), but 400,000 of them are manuscripts.

Lots of interesting information. Something I hadn't thought about, the colours are stable, unlike for paintings, as there is no varnish. The only thing that can alter is silver, it oxidises.

After the renovation of the BnF (the old one of course, Richelieu, not the new site in the 13th), they now have a museum space, and there are some manuscripts on display, changing every 4 months.

There's an exhibition next year, but I didn't note the exact subject.

In Photos, I'm posting a page from the breviary made for the Duke of Bedford when he was Regent of France in the 15th century.

[CCCubbon]

scarletnoir wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "I’m reading the first of the Quirke novels Christine Fallsby John Banville - the language is delicious except for the one ‘n’ word which jumped off the page. How haveI missed this ..."

You’ have guessed then that I don’t read all posts and had not read the ones you mention - sheer laziness I suppose.
I’m still enjoying it for the descriptions. Yes, the plot of Snow was weak but I like this one more.
It’s set in Ireland in the fifties where they seem to drink and smoke excessively and have a lifestyle that bears little similarity to the fifties that I remember, and yet there is something that feels familiar.
It will sound foolish if I describe a sense of loss, of something missing, something intangible, emptiness. Think of times of momentous events, think of when they stop. It’s the quiet after the storm, the something missing. It’s not that one wants whatever it was back but it’s a time to readjust, to take stock, the euphoria of whatever being over then yes, a kind of emptiness. It took a very long time for people to adjust after WW2 .
I am not explaining this very well but Banville’s character has that air of being lost, maybe he doesn’t report the beating because he feels in some way he deserved it. I am only half way through.
As a crime novel I wouldn’t rate it highly - I’ve read many because I like puzzles - but this is something different. I don’t really care for the solution is obvious but it gives something different, an atmosphere of a time.

The next morning;

He knows who was behind the attacks, knows the Catholic Church and his family are involved, his family who rescued him from the orphanage - it’s the fifties he would not report. Surely he would feel that he ‘owed’ his family. Why else would he cover up? Was it the price for being saved as a child? Was he guilty of a lack of gratitude, deserving punishment?His guilt?
Why do you think, even today, much family sexual abuse is unreported. Why not? Perhaps the abuser relies on the feelings of guilt in the one abused and those guilt feelings isolate the abused.

In the fifties all these questions were taboo. Not spoken about. Many would have known of abuses within the Catholic Church, what happened to single mothers then. Why do you think it is only now that some people, men and women are coming forward to tell what happened to them many years ago? Why was nothing said?

This book is very subtle but all these questions are underlying the story. You cannot judge with twentyfirst century eyes how and why people acted in a certain way then but maybe understand a little.

[Robert]

scarletnoir wrote: "Bill wrote: "I was rather surprised at the shock expressed by the adults around me at the time. I had learned about Lincoln's assassination, and the main square in our town was named after Presiden..."

Hmm. President Garfield was a politically ambitious abolitionist who served as a Union Army officer. The high point of his military career came at Chickamauga Creek, on a day of disaster. He rode toward the sound of guns, where part of the army was holding out. This made his reputation and he became the Republican candidate in 1880. (General Thomas, the man who led the defenders and saved a large part of the army, wasn't elected to anything.) He was assassinated by an office seeker named Guiteau a few months after taking office.
Guiteau, a man full of political and religious ideas, had published advice on issues for the 1880 election, saw Garfield elected on a similar platform, and wanted a diplomatic post-- in Paris, for example. Guiteau remained at the scene after the shooting, asked a detective about his political affiliation, and predicted that being a presidential assassin would help him to meet women. He also predicted that General Sherman would rescue him. He was wrong on both counts.
Guiteau pled insanity. In his private writings, he imagined scenes in Heaven, with an angry God denouncing the execution of "my man Guiteau." The jury found him guilty.
On the gallows, Guiteau recited a poem, "I Am Going to the Lordy," which he suggested that hearers imagine being spoken by a tubercular small girl.
After the execution, one of the country's leading alienists told his colleagues: "I thought Guiteau was faking until he recited that poem."
There is a recent biography of Garfield, interesting but sketchy on his military career. Guiteau's story is well told in "The Trial of the Assassin Guiteau."