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The Procrastinators Book Club discussion
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The Song of Achilles
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★Buddy/Group Read Retirement★
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The Song of Achilles (November 2023) Buddy Read Discussion - Jen & Juliane
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Whenever I do a discussion group for a book, I like to google for questions. Here's the first one I found for this book:In the Iliad, Patroclus is a relatively minor character. Why do you think the author chose him to be her narrator? Which other figures in the story might make interesting narrators?
I have the Iliad on my shelf, but I've only read it once, a long time ago. But this is a trend in literature, at least currently: choose a minor character from a classic and explore that person's story. I even read Ransom by David Malouf a few years ago, which takes the story of the donkey cart owner who drives King Priam out to Achilles to negotiate to get Hector's body back.
Now refreshing myself on the plot of the Iliad, it actually should be obvious: Achilles breaks the conventions of war because he's so upset by Patroclus' death. So obviously it's juicy to imagine what made him so upset through a 21st century lens.
As for which other characters might make interesting narrators, well obviously any of them. I think the Iliad is ripe for a retelling from Helen's perspective, and it's probably been done, I just don't know about it. But you can take any minor character and make a rich story out of it: Thetis, the other boys in the dorm, Menoetius.
Hi, how are you doing?I'm a bit behind on the reading schedule but I will try to catch up soon.
I think I only ever read the Iliad in parts and had some discussions in school but that was at least 15-20 years ago. Currently I'm listening to the audiobook and I'm not quite happy with the voice of the narrator of the audiobook yet, though it is practical to at the same time check in with the general genealogy of the main character and brush up on where everyone fits into the wider story.
I like the idea of having the discussion with some mutual questions in mind.
Generally I think that through books or movies quite a few people have at least an abstract idea of some of the main players of the Iliad, Achilles being one of them, even through the various often rather wild interpretations of these characters.
The minor characters tend to be more blank slates, where I think modern authors have more leeway for interpretation, having not been given too much constraint from the Iliad itself.
That probably also makes sure not to upset too many people who believe to know the Iliad by heart and like to rant about every new interpretation.
Only being in chapter 4 I think its interesting that Miller has written Patroclus as such a sensitive child in such a harsh world that supposedly mainly allowed the most brutal to strive.
I'm fine. I never finish books in time. I think I'm up to chapter 6.I have a second question:
What do you think are the reasons behind Thetis’ opposition to Patroclus?
I'm not up to the part where they really interact, but I'll keep this in mind when I get there.
So I'm up to chapter 8 now and so far I feel the author is doing well in developing the relationship between Patroklus and Achilles, especially considering how young they still are. Although of course I understand that in these times children needed to grow up a lot faster but the author has taken quite a bit of time exploring the beginning of their friendship and the deepening of Patroclus feelings.
Like Patroclus I did wonder why Achilles chose him as his companion in front of his father so suddenly when he had never done so before. It does seem like Patroclus does not necessarily behave like the other boys Achilles was used to, for example with the hiding and the way he talked to Achilles before the first music lesson, which might explain Achilles sense of surprise towards Patroclus.
I noticed that question coming up in some discussion points for this book so what do you think about Achilles explanation of finding Patroclus surprising?
Regarding Thetis so far, if I'm not mistaken Miller has written her opposition to the coupling with Peleus in an even harsher way than the Greek mythology suggests already.
On the one hand I I feel completely for Thetis suspicion and dismissal of mortals in general after the ordeal of her year with Peleus. On the other hand I'm a bit surprised just how harsh she is written here. She seems to love her son and he is clearly fond of her but even taking into account that she has ambitions for Achiles and wants to protect him I think her disapproval of Patroclus (even when he is still so young) definitely seems to go deeper than mere loathing of mortal mankind.
Hello everyone! I’m sorry this unrelated but couldn’t find where to ask.. Does anyone using iPhone have problems with the Goodreads app just closing out of nowhere? I close to rage quitting this app!P.s while I was trying to post this question the app closed on my face again!
I did finish this weekend since I really enjoyed the scenes during their years with Chiron, it feels especially Patroclus took away a lot from his time there.Unfortunately to my mind the book lost its way a bit afterwards. Especially the whole part of the battle of Troy didn't really work for me regarding the pacing of the narrative.
What I would have liked to read more about in that part was the relationship/friendship between Patroclus, Briseis and Achilles because I felt there was real space for personal development in that connection.
However some of the characterisation sometimes felt really rushed towards the end.
I'm not sure yet how to put this into words but to me it felt like the author wanted to get to the mostly set ending following the mythology but had sometimes deviated too much for these caracters earlier and now needed to put in certain characters reactions/moments to get to that particular ending.
Which judging from how much the author departs from some of the mythology right from the beginning felt weirdly forced towards the end.
How do you feel about the changes made to the characters compared to the Illiad?
Coming back to the question you posed concerning Thetis, I felt up to the end that her reaction towards Patroclus is not really grounded in the story. I felt her disapproval didn't really develop beyond she wants Achilles to be a god and preferably have an heir which she can form however she wants, which I guess can be enough motivation for some people but for her this whole characterisation felt off. Except for the ending which turned her character slightly around again in the way she grieved.
But then again by that time she had already lost all the people she loved and hoped to raise to gods.
Along that regard I found the following question:
Peleus warns his son that any mortal who visits the sea-nymphs in their caves beneath the sea does not return the same. How is this belief borne out by the character of Pyrrhus, who was raised there? In what way does Pyrrhus confirm or deny Patroclus’ fears about the gods?
To me the characterisation of Pyrrhus shows exactly what Achilles would have become if he hadn't experience various iterations of love throughout his formative years. Not just by Patroclus but also the care his father and for example Chiron gave him.
Also the way Pyrrhus tried to deny his fathers wishes regarding the last resting place together with Patroclus was a demonstration of his cruelty surely influenced by his upbringing thereby playing into Patrolcus (or his afterlife) pain and fears.
I read the Iliad once a long time ago. I've read a couple of books related to it since, Memorial by Alice Oswald and Ransom but David Malouf. So those are likely more in my mind than the original.I have 80 pages left, so Patroclus hasn't met Pyrrhus yet. So I'll go back to my question I didn't answer last time: Why is Thetis so opposed to Patroclus?
She knows the prophecies and presumably that Patroclus is why Achilles will grieve so hard he'll break the laws of war. She knows she can't change his fate, but she doesn't have to like it, or the cause of it.
She's also a mother, though an unusual one. And a lot of mothers don't like their children's partners because no one is good enough for their kid.
What I wonder is, why doesn't Thetis have the same dislike of Briseis? She's also a friend of Achilles who causes the break with Agamemnon, which will lead to Patroclus' death. Yet at least for the first 270 pages, we don't see them interact.
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Each day we will be reading by chapters or page numbers. Page numbers are an approximation based on the hardcover or paperback that is the default on Goodreads. The suggested Buddy Read discussion schedule is as follows:
Week of 11/25
November 25: Chapter 1-6
November 26: Chapter 7-12
Week of 11/27
November 27: Chapter 13-18
November 28: Chapter 19-23
November 29: Chapter 24-28
November 30: Chapter 29-33
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~ Jen
~ Juliane