The Heretic's Apprentice - SPOILER Thread - (Cadfael #16) by Ellis Peters (Nov/Dec 23)

[Susan]

Welcome to our Nov/Dec 23 buddy read of The Heretic's Apprentice the sixteenth book in the Brother Cadfael series, first published in 1989.

Brother Cadfael, 12th-century herbalist, sleuth and sometime cupid, outdoes himself in this, his 16th chronicle, in which Peters imbues the familiar territory of murder, young love and odious villainry with fresh vigor and new subtleties. Elave, young clerk to William of Lythwood, returns from a pilgrimage to the Holy Land with his elderly master's body. His missions are to bury William in his home abbey of St. Peter and St. Paul, and to deliver a dowry to William's adopted daughter Fortunata. But Elave, suspected of harboring views inimical to church doctrine, is held for ecclesiastical trial. And when Aldwin, the Lythwood family clerk hired in Elave's absence, is stabbed to death, Elave is incarcerated not only for heresy, but for murder. Fortunata's dowry, an intricately carved box with mysterious contents, holds the key to the mysteries that spring up around Elave and the Lythwood family. Shrewd and patient, Brother Cadfael is at his best here.

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

[Jill]

I wasn't so keen on this one because it brought religion into the story. I like to read about the descriptions of the monk's way of life, and the every day people in the town, but up until now it has left religion aside. This really showed the dominance of the beliefs of the church, had over both monks and ordinary people. Having said that Cadfael still manages to go his own way, and sort out the problems.

[Susan in NC]

Agreed - maybe because religious conflict is one of the factors in the horrific images we’re all inundated with right now - I just wasn’t in the mood for this right now. I always enjoy these books for the reasons Jill lays out, but I found myself skimming bits, a first.

[Keith]

In the 12th century, the Church was at the centre of everything. On top of that, the Anarchy with the civil war between King Stephen and the Empress Matilda just about covered the whole of life. Read Sharon Penman's 'When Christ and His Saints Slept' which really fleshes out the history of that period. Penman called the Empress 'Maud' in her books to differentiate between the Empress and King Stephen's wife Queen Matilda

[Susan in NC]

Thanks, Keith, I actually picked up a few Penman used paperbacks years ago, haven’t gotten to that one yet!

[Keith]

It's a fairly large book but an easy and interesting read, pretty accurate from a historical basis and brings the real historical individuals to life. I've read it twice as I still have the paperback,
Penman wrote a 5 book series covering the Plantagenets, they don't seem to be on Kindle although many of her other books are

[Susan in NC]

I read The Sunne in Splendour last year, and it helped me finally get a grip on the War of the Roses! Thanks for letting me know her work is pretty accurate - I found “Sunne” really moving and an entertaining, easy yet absorbing read.

[Keith]

The Plantagenet era was a couple of hundred years or so of unpleasantness to say the least.

[Susan in NC]

Classic understatement! ;o)

[Judy]

I quite liked this and enjoyed the lyrical descriptions of the countryside, but yet again we had young lovers who fall for one another at first sight (well, except that they knew each other when she was a child).

I thought the discussions about heresy were quite interesting to start with but then went on and got a bit repetitive. I would have loved to see a picture of the amazing book!

[Sandy]

I found the religious discussions depressing as we don' t seem to have advanced. That said, I enjoyed visiting with Cadfael and his abbey but very glad the visitor left. I've learned to accept, or perhaps ignore, the young lovers and their immediate commitment.

Sorry about the murderer as he seemed a reasonable person caught up by lust for a book, then to find he had killed needlessly. I wonder if the description was based on a real book.

While reading I thought of our earlier discussion of an abridged version. I kept wondering what had been left out; it is a quite short book.

[Susan in NC]

Sandy wrote: "I found the religious discussions depressing as we don' t seem to have advanced. That said, I enjoyed visiting with Cadfael and his abbey but very glad the visitor left. I've learned to accept, or ..."

From the bit I listened to, it seemed the abridged bits were descriptions of scenery, buildings, background on the status of the Stephen/Maud conflict, etc.

[Judy]

Susan in NC wrote: From the bit I listened to, it seemed the abridged bits were descriptions of scenery, buildings, background on the status of the Stephen/Maud conflict, etc...."

It would be a shame to lose those bits, Susan - sounds like it is all the period atmosphere that gets lost. Shame they didn't cut out the lovers instead (only joking! I'll shut up about them now.)

[Susan in NC]

No, I hear you, the lovers rarely add much for me, it just gives Cadfael a chance to rescue one of them from some folly, or clear up some misunderstanding or wrongful accusation keeping them apart!

The nature descriptions, and little sketches of abbey life, are what I love about these books, I’d miss those. I could handle less Stephen & Maud; the toing and froing between the warring factions is rather mind-numbing and confusing.

[Judy]

Yes, must admit I find it hard to keep track of the war between Stephen and Empress Maud, but it's often interesting to look up episodes that are mentioned on the web. I know more about that conflict now than I did before reading the Cadfael books, though I still don't know all that much about it.

[Keith]

As I said before Judy, if you read 'When Christ and His Saints Slept. by Sharon Penman, she fleshes out that history extremely well and brings it to life. There are, 5 books in the series covering the Plantagenet period of English history. I have not read them all yet, just part way through the 2nd, 'Time and Chance'. The other three are 'Devil's Brood''/, 'Lionheart' and 'King's Ransom'.
She wrote several series on the Middle Ages, I think they are all available on Kindle

[Susan in NC]

I have several of those titles, Keith, and do mean to get to them, but they are a reading commitment- several are chunksters! *sigh*, the perennial book lover’s lament, so many books, so little time! ;o)

[Keith]

You're right Susan, all of them are 'big' books and take quite a while to read, that's why I'm only part way through 'Time and Chance', I'm wading through Wentworth, Allingham, Christie, Sayers etc. just now.

[Susan in NC]

Sounds like some lovely authors to wade through!

[Judy]

The Sharon Penman books do look enormous - I'll bear them in mind for a long holiday read. Thank you Keith.

[Keith]

My favourite is our Dorothy. After plodding through a couple of say Miss Silver, I relax with Dorothy's Peter.
Dorothy was a scholar, she passed all the Oxford exams with honours long before women were awarded Degrees by Oxford and eventually got an M.A. Degree. (In a way, she was lucky, Cambridge women had to wait until 1948 to get Degrees from their university). The quality of her writing shows it too. Her syntax is immaculate compared with the others. Her characters are 'real' three dimensional people, most of the other authors leave their characters as two dimensional 'cutouts' - look at Poirot for example. Christie's plots are very clever but are really just like doing a jigsaw and I get bored. Certainly Peter Wimsey begins as a 'silly ass' but quite quickly develops in to a personality and then is completed by the longterm development with Harriet. Both characters are believable people.

[Susan in NC]

That’s what I’ve really come to appreciate about Sayers - the development of Lord Peter from a silly young man about town into a man worthy of a complex, mature, intelligent female character like Harriet Vane.

[Keith]

Jill Paton Walsh did a good job completing Sayers' 'Thrones, Dominations' begun by Sayers who wrote the first six chapters and left notes covering the rest of the plot. Then 'Presumed Dead[ expanded from 'The Wimsey Papers' followed by 'The Attenbury Emeralds' and 'The Late Scholar'
JPW is annoying when she frequently says 'should of' instead of 'should have' or 'should've'.

[Susan in NC]

Keith wrote: "Jill Paton Walsh did a good job completing Sayers' 'Thrones, Dominations' begun by Sayers who wrote the first six chapters and left notes covering the rest of the plot. Then 'Presumed Dead[ expande..."

I read and enjoyed Walsh’s continuation of the Lord Peter series.

[Judy]

Who guessed the right killer in this one? I thought for much of the book that it might be the other young man who wanted to marry Fortunata. I was pleased that I was wrong and there was a more interesting solution.

[Susan in NC]

I didn’t guess until just about the end - I thought it was the other man, also.

[Michaela]

Same here.