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[2024] Poll 14 Voting
Pamela wrote: "We had [strong sense ofplace] a couple years ago, so there should be that listopia...."We had it in 2019, but I can't find a Listopia from that year - did we not create them back then?
Dubhease wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Why do you consider my prompt insulting? ( just for future reference) ..."I think it's a weird grouping to begin with. I'll leave it to someone from Australia or New Zealand to com..."
Well I was not suggesting Australia and New Zealand are the same merely that they are both countries which get less attention than Britain and America so your insinuation that I’m some kind of cultural bigot who can’t tell them apart is itself highly insulting. Maybe I’m wrong about how many of there authors get read but I certainly read far fewer of either than American or Britain ( Canada would be the same if it wasn’t for the Anne books. I am also fully aware that Canada is not geographically near Australia.
Tracy wrote: "@Duhease, re: your disagreement with some of the anti-heroine books on the Listopias I provided — I agree, the Listopias aren’t perfect, I provided them just as a way to get a few suggestions out t..."I realize that our borrowed listopias aren't perfect. The one provided specifically for anti-heroines (the listopia's term, not mine) has Gone with the Wind - I agree Scarlett is an anti-hero(ine). Wuthering Heights, the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Macbeth - I agree about Catherine, Lisbeth, and Lady MacBeth.
But Jane Eyre is there. Jane isn't perfect (who is?). but how can she be anything but the victim in her story. I also disagree with The Yellow Wallpaper and the Bell Jar being on the list.
Maybe this leads into a conversation about what an anti-hero is. I thought it was a protagonist who was not morally on the side of good. I don't think protagonists with mental illnesses are necessarily anti-heroes, unless I'm missing the definition.
Dubhease wrote: "But Jane Eyre is there. Jane isn't perfect (who is?). but how can she be anything but the victim in her story. ..."I'd say Mr Rochester is the anti-hero there.
I actually don't know if I've read a New Zealand author before, but I actually read a lot of Canadian and Australian authors. I'd actually say many of my favorite authors are Australian, so for me this is a very easy prompt. Overall, there isn't much on the list that really excites me off the bat. I'll upvote Masterpiece, pet and anti-hero/heroine.
I don't think Scarlet O'Hara is an anti-hero at all! I mean, she's racist BUT she's white in 1860s Atlanta. It's not a fantasy book. And everything she does is for her family and Tara.
I will say I'm a bit bias as Scarlet is one of my favorite characters of all time. She's not sweet and innocent, she's resourceful, smart, driven, cares about her family, and is a kick-ass businesswoman. Frank Kennedy's business would have been a mess without her, her sisters would have been dead, the family farm lost.
Nadine in NY wrote: "Dubhease wrote: "But Jane Eyre is there. Jane isn't perfect (who is?). but how can she be anything but the victim in her story. ..."I'd say Mr Rochester is the anti-hero there."
I do too. It's just the book was included on a list of anti-heroines. So far every book I read on the list, I was trying to figure out who the female anti-hero was.
I will say, that we come up with better listopias in ATY than most ones I come across.
I particularly liked Michelle Paver's Dark Matter: A Ghost Story and Thin Air: A Ghost Story for sense of place
I think for a strong sense of place a gothic book would be perfect or even a dark academia book. Some fantasies would also work for this. A haunted house story as well. I interpret this as anything where the place is an integral part of the story in that the story or feel of the book would be wildly different without it. I like that this prompt could work as a great seasonal read and fit a lot of different moods.I like the five books list and voted for it last time. I enjoy having an excuse to peruse book lists =). I'm also fond of the anti-hero prompt.
Have to admit a bit of fatigue with the geographical prompts, whether it's author or setting, etc. I'm also not crazy about the spice prompt - I agree that it is too close to the recipe prompt from this year and the one from popsugar in 2019 also was difficult for me. I will also likely downvote insects as I've been personally traumatized by insects the last few years so I don't want to think about them. If this gets through I'll probably choose something with a butterfly on the cover. Book with a pet might be a downvote from me just because it was on Popsugar this year and I've had trouble filling it and don't fancy a repeat.
Mod
1. A book by an author from Canada, Australia or New Zealand
I'm a C..."
About covers (for insects) - some challenge groups require you to only use the cover you actually read. At ATY, we leave it up to you. I have used different covers sometimes than I actually read. With some books like classics, there are literally dozens of covers and searching through them all would be a pain.
Robin P wrote: "About covers (for insects) - some challenge groups require you to only use the cover you actually read. At ATY, we leave it up to you. I have used different covers sometimes than I actually read. With some books like classics, there are literally dozens of covers and searching through them all would be a pain."Not to mention that GR doesn’t always have the same cover as the volume you’ve read. 🫤
Dubhease - I understand your sentiment about suggestion #1 but the truth is that many of us, outside of those countries, don’t read a lot of authors from those countries. Of the top of my head, I could think of 7 Canadian authors (of which I’ve read 2 in the last 3 years) and recognized 14, after pulling up a list. 13 for Australia and 2 for NZ. I’m going to vote for the prompt but plan to go with a new-to-me author, possibly NZ author Janet Frame or Canadian author Leonard Cohen.
Here’s an argument for why the prompt is for an author from Canada, Australia, or New Zealand. By comparing the list of Top Ten English speaking countries with a list showing the rank of those countries for number of books published, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are clearly the ones that would have the most books available to choose from for the challenge.
Top 10 Countries that Speak English as a Primary Language (by total population 2021)
1. United States — 332,915,073
2. United Kingdom — 68,207,116
3. Canada (except for Quebec) — 38,067,903
4. Australia — 25,788,215
5. Liberia — 5,180,203
6. Ireland — 4,982,907
7. New Zealand — 4,860,643
8. Jamaica — 2,973,463
9. Trinidad and Tobago — 1,403,375
10. Guyana — 790,326
Number of book titles published per country per year
United States (#1)
UK (#3)
Canada (#38)
Australia (#21)
Liberia (not on list)
Ireland (#71)
New Zealand (#63)
Jamaica (not on list)
Trinidad (not on list)
Guyana (#123)
https://worldpopulationreview.com/cou...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_p...
Dubhease wrote: "Nadine in NY wrote: "Dubhease wrote: "But Jane Eyre is there. Jane isn't perfect (who is?). but how can she be anything but the victim in her story. ..."I'd say Mr Rochester is the anti-hero the...
I do too. It's just the book was included on a list of anti-heroines."
ohhh!! I missed that it had to be a heroine. Yeah I see your confusion. Either someone had not read Jane Eyre, or they were thinking of Bertha (a reach, since she's barely in the book), OR they ignored/missed the gender restriction and included that book because of Rochester.
Erin wrote: "I think for a strong sense of place a gothic book would be perfect or even a dark academia book. Some fantasies would also work for this. A haunted house story as well. I interpret this as anything..."Yes!! horror and fantasy often have a strong sense of place!! You may not know exactly where the place is, it may not be real, but you feel engulf in the place. Like Mexican Gothic & The Hollow Places, those may or may not be real places (The Hollow Places sure isn't!!) but I still remember what it FELT like to be in those places as I read.
Fantasy novels set in real or imaginary places can have a strong sense of place. Origin is set in a fictional camp in the Amazon, and the jungle leaves an impression.
Noir can have a strong sense of place, too. Chandler's Marlowe & Mosley's Easy Rawlins both inhabit a Los Angeles that is described so well I feel like I've been there. The new neo-noir The Stolen Coast is set in a (real) small town near Cape Cod Mass, and I feel like I've been to that town.
And "women's fiction" like Cocoa Beach and A Hundred Summers and Next Year in Havana and The Lions of Fifth Avenue all have very rich descriptions of the area and can feel atmospheric.
@Dalex I think your numbers also prove why it is important that we read authors from outside the US and UK. That Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have such low numbers on the second list that people are not as exposed to them.I am Canadian and am happy to see Canadian authors on challenges such as ours. We have a small publishing industry beside a giant and our authors get overlooked even by those in our own country. Many Canadians feel that our authors only write bleak stories as that is what we are exposed to in high school. The surprise people have when they find out that not all of our literature is so dark and stuffy warms my heart.
Anastasia wrote: "@Dalex I think your numbers also prove why it is important that we read authors from outside the US and UK. That Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have such low numbers on the second list that peo..."Yes, and it's because people outside of those countries don't buy enough copies but American books glut their markets followed by British ones.
This is a GR listopia for popular books with a strong sense of place. Apologies if someone else posted this previously. I tried to look at all the posts about it and didn't see it anywhere.https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/...
Charlsa wrote: "This is a GR listopia for popular books with a strong sense of place. Apologies if someone else posted this previously. I tried to look at all the posts about it and didn't see it anywhere.https:..."
But I hope people read authors from those places not just book set in them. I thought it was about authors--am I wrong?
If there is one thing I find annoying it's books set in Canada written by outsiders unless they make it obvious in that the POV is an outsider.
There is a show in TV that I would never in a million years watch--it's set in Canada but they have a mountie there working in his dress regalia and it's not set far enough back for the red coat. A mountie is an RCMP officer. The red jackets haven't been worn as a regular uniform by any Canadian police outfit since 1901, which was about 20 years before the formation of the RCMP (merged more than one other policing group.)
Karin wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "This is a GR listopia for popular books with a strong sense of place. Apologies if someone else posted this previously. I tried to look at all the posts about it and didn't see it a...""But I hope people read authors from those places not just book set in them. I thought it was about authors--am I wrong?"
It's two different things.
1. Authors from Canada, Australia, or New Zealand (and I like that category, because while I do read a few authors from Canada and Australia each year, it's usually the same two or three authors so I'd like to discover more, and also that's a small percentage of all the books I read).
2. Books with a strong sense of place (which has nothing to do with being "own voices" - the author can be from anywhere).
Someone said it can be hard to plan for this one, but I do think there are ways to know in advance, other than finding a book on a list and hoping it fits. If you've read a book with a strong sense of place before, odds are good that another book by the same author will have the same style. If the setting is described as being critical to the plot, then odds are good the book will have a strong sense of place. If the book blurb describes the book as "atmospheric" or "lush" or any of those other words, odds are good it will have a strong sense of place.
Nadine in NY wrote: "Karin wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "This is a GR listopia for popular books with a strong sense of place. Apologies if someone else posted this previously. I tried to look at all the posts about it and d..."Yes, I undersood that right away, which is why I said that I hoped people would read authors from those countreis and not just set in them with a strong sense of place.
But if you want to read authors with both, avoid Margaret Atwood since there is no strong sense of Canada in her writing, IMO.
And, of course there are books written by Canadians that don't have a strong sense of place in Canada. But many people are not comfortable with books with a strong sense of place there and I'm not sure why--do they think Canada is more homogenized from East to West and North to South than it is?
Canada has many unique things, such as provincial and even municipal political parties that exist only in one province or municipality. Some didn't even exist when I was a kid, some that existed then are gone--it's always changing.
dalex wrote: "Here’s an argument for why the prompt is for an author from Canada, Australia, or New Zealand. By comparing the list of Top Ten English speaking countries with a list showing the rank of those co..."
That info really puts in it perspective! And, it makes me want to read something from a Liberian author!
As a Canadian myself, the prompt is a “read a book” for me because I make an effort to read local books ( and Australian ones, because I’d move there in a heartbeat if it was feasible to do so).
And to lol at Anastasia’s comment, I don’t come across a lot of stuffy CDN reads, but apparently I gravitate towards the dark ones!
In a rare patriotic moment, I’m feeling obligated to upvote that prompt, even though my first inclination was to not vote up or down on it.
Karin wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "This is a GR listopia for popular books with a strong sense of place. Apologies if someone else posted this previously. I tried to look at all the posts about it and didn't see it a..."You hit on a pet peeve of mine! It drives me nut when I pick up a book and find out I’m reading a book about a country authored by a someone not of that country.
Karin wrote: "Nadine in NY wrote: "Karin wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "This is a GR listopia for popular books with a strong sense of place. Apologies if someone else posted this previously. I tried to look at all the...Yes, I undersood that right away, which is why I said that I hoped people would read authors from those countreis and not just set in them with a strong sense of place."
Oh gotcha! It really isn't a requirement for "strong sense of place" that the author be from that place. I don't want people to think they HAVE to make sure the author is from there. It's personal preference, if it's important to you, seek out authors from those places, of course!
You can read a fantasy or horror novel in a place that doesn't exist and it can still have a strong sense of place.
I'd recommend Three Day Road for a book by a Canadian author, about Canada, and with a strong sense of place. There are 2 other books in the series which I haven't read yet, but I intend to.
@ MJ Rose A Canadian Indigenous author who is not bleak or stuffy is Drew Haydon Taylor. He had me laughing so hard when reading Motorcycles and Sweetgrass.
dalex wrote: "Do "wild animals or endangered species" have to be real? Could we count mythological or fantastical creatures? I know I can do whatever I want with a prompt but I'm wondering if others think this..."
In Seanan McGuire's series about cryptobiologists, the fantastical creatures ARE endangered, so I think would count.
Vicki wrote: "dalex wrote: "Do "wild animals or endangered species" have to be real? Could we count mythological or fantastical creatures? I know I can do whatever I want with a prompt but I'm wondering if oth..."
That’s been on my tbr for a while! I didn’t recognize his name, but I know that title!! Thanks for the reminder!
Mod
A couple of Canadian novels that happen to have a strong sense of place are
Luna (Saskatchewan prairie)
Fall on Your Knees (Cape Breton Island)
The Shipping News is set in Newfoundland and the place is important, though of course author Annie Proulx isn't Canadian.
I actually think there is no reason to overlap the author prompt and the sense of place prompt. Some books with a strong sense of place would include Where the Crawdads Sing, Demon Copperhead, Lillian Boxfish Takes a Walk (New York City), A Gentleman in Moscow (place is of course almost entirely inside the hotel), The Dry, Miss Benson's Beetle: A Novel, and mysteries by Craig Johnson and Tony Hillerman.
First impressions (even before reading the thread):1. A book by an author from Canada, Australia or New Zealand - I wouldn't downvote this, but not very likely to upvote either. It's easy enough for me to fill but not strongly interested.
2. A book that has an X in the title - I prefer the other prompt wording that had been discussed that was "related to" or "involving" an ex (can't remember which), but this is decent too. I might upvote.
3. A book involving a wild animal or endangered species - Downvoted this last time, and probably will again. I just don't think I have many books that fit.
4. A book that is on a Five Books List; reader’s choice of which list - Could live with this if it got in, but not the biggest fan.
5. A book with a pet in the story - Maybe. I have quite a few books where the main characters have dogs or cats, but not sure I want it strongly enough to vote on it.
6. A book adapted by Masterpiece Theatre - Love the idea, but probably a downvote for me. Based on the list I saw, there was very little on it that I was actively interested in reading.
7. A book by an author born between 1965-1980 (Generation X) - I'd need to see options, so neutral for now.
8. A book with a strong sense of place - I like this one a lot in theory, but I have no idea how I'd find books that fit except by choosing from a list.
9. A book with an anti-hero as a main character - This is always an upvote for me. I love anti-hero and villain perspectives.
10. A book over 500 pages - I'd be fine if this gets in, but not sure I want it strongly enough to upvote.
11. A book with the name of a spice in the title - Need to see options. I can't think of very many that fit, but I could be convinced.
12. A book involving Intelligence – AI, espionage or abilities - I like this a lot, probably an upvote.
13. A book with a pronoun in the title - This has been done many times but it's a prompt I always like and it's easy for me to fill. I might upvote, but might not.
14. A book with more than one main character - Prompt fatigue.
15. A book with an insect in the title or on the cover - I'd need to see options to decide, but probably not an upvote.
Anastasia wrote: "@Dalex I think your numbers also prove why it is important that we read authors from outside the US and UK. That Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have such low numbers on the second list that peo..."I wouldn't necessarily say bleak, but I'm Canadian and I sometimes have a hard time with Canadian books. Maybe it's just the ones I've read, but I often feel that they overemphasize the Canadian aspect somehow, almost as if trying to *really show* that they're not American. I can't think of a good example off the top of my head right now, but it's been enough times that I've noticed it that it bothers me.
I don't think any of us are saying we never read Canadian authors when left to our own devices... but they are definitely underrepresented in UK publishing compared to US authors. Most people are going to be reading books published in their own country just due to availability, and library users are often restricted to what is popular/widely published.I had a look at my round up of books published in the UK in September (which only includes books I have a vague interest in reading, so it is not everything, and is skewed towards SFF). Out of 48 books, 29 are from authors residing in the US, 14 are in the UK, 2 are in Canada*. None from Australia or New Zealand that I'm aware.
*Kelley Armstrong and Em X. Liu.
Mod
My go-tos for Canadian authors are Louise Penny and Vicki Delany, and more recently, Emily St. John Mandel. Australian is often harder, as the only one I know easily is Kerry Greenwood
This is my favorite list of prompt choices so far this year! Upvoted 6, downvoted 2.ETA: I love the cats on the poll header!
In the end, this was one of the more difficult votes for me as I had several upvotes and several downvotes. In the end voted more up than down.
A popular author from Canada that I've not seen anyone mention - Silvia Moreno-Garcia. (Unless you're being super strict and saying the author has to have been born in Canada and is not just currently residing there.)
Mod
ETA: I love the cats on the poll header!"
I'm glad you like the cats lol. I have a lot of fun picking different headers each week.
I’m now afraid I ticked too many boxes. Emily is there anyway to check?
Robin P wrote: "Sense of place isn't necessarily tied to a particular country. As somebody mentioned, it could be a creepy house. A couple of Canadian novels that happen to have a strong sense of place are."
I agree with your list Robin,
I love the Sense of place category. I started paying attention when this was proposed a couple years ago, and I tagged the books that made me feel like I was there. Here are some I won’t easily forget:
Canada - The Day the World Came to Town: 9/11 in Gander, Newfoundland, Still Life, Station Eleven, Indian Horse, moon of the crusted Snow
Australia - The Lost Man,
New Zealand/Tasmania- The Rain Heron, When We Believed in Mermaids
People walking around NY City -
The Golem and the Jinni 1900, Lillian Boxfish Takes a Walk
India - Behind the Beautiful Forevers: Life, Death, and Hope in a Mumbai Undercity, The Hungry Tide
Appalachia- The Book Woman of Troublesome Creek
Malaysia - The Garden of Evening Mists, The Night Tiger
Amazon jungle-The River of Doubt: Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Journey
There are a lot more on my list
Mod
Robin P wrote: "I upvoted 7, the only one I downvoted was the spice. I don't dislike it but it seems a bit narrow."I liked the idea of spice, but I didn’t see anything I want to read. I had a hard time with the recipe words prompt this year.
Trish wrote: "Ellie wrote: "I don't think any of us are saying we never read Canadian authors when left to our own devices... but they are definitely underrepresented in UK publishing compared to US authors. Mos..."I like those too. I loved The Day the World Came to Town: 9/11 in Gander, Newfoundland. My favorite Canadian authors are Louise Penny, Margaret Atwood, Miriam Toews, Emily St. John Mandel, Michelle Good, and Richard Wagamese,
At first glance I thought I would upvote 8 but I went with 5 instead - Can/AU/NZ, Five Books, Masterpiece Theatre, strong sense of place, and Intelligence. With all of the talk about authors, I realized that I have 10 Australian authors on my bookshelves so I would probably read one of them.
Mod
You did not overvote.
For future reference, Jackie or I look at every single vote, and if you do cast too many votes, we delete your response and send you a private message letting you know that you can cast that vote again.
Mod
I hadn't realised she lived in Canada.
Emily wrote: "Thomas wrote: "I’m now afraid I ticked too many boxes. Emily is there anyway to check?"You did not overvote.
For future reference, Jackie or I look at every single vote, and if you do cast too m..."
Thank you Emily very helpful
So I’m now not sure what I voted I went 6-2 my downs being
Spice( sorry Popsugar 2019 not something I want again)
Strong sense of plays ( seemed hard to do without prep)
I know I voted for Canada etc, 500 pages, pronouns and multiple main characters. I think my others were five books and intelligence but it may have been pets
dalex wrote: "This is my favorite list of prompt choices so far this year! Upvoted 6, downvoted 2.ETA: I love the cats on the poll header!"
Also love the cats :)
For the fantasy and sci-fi readers, both Australia and Canada have speculative fiction book awards. Aurora (Canada)
https://worldswithoutend.com/books_au...
Aurealis (Australia)
SF - https://worldswithoutend.com/books_au...
Fantasy - https://worldswithoutend.com/books_au...
Horror - https://worldswithoutend.com/books_au...
Around the Year in 52 Books
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I think it's a weird grouping to begin with. I'll leave it to someone from Australia or New Zealand to complain about them being grouped together. (I knew a guy from NZ who got insulted anytime anyone mistook him for an Australian.) Canada is no where near those countries geographically. (Unless you grew up in Springfield. As Marge Simpson once complained that it took her grade 4 class 40 minutes to find Canada on a map of the world.)
Someone described Canada, Australia, and New Zealand as obscure countries whose books get overlooked. That in itself is patronizing. And not even true. A lot of the time we create a listopia someone adds The Book Thief, The Dry, a Phryne Fisher mystery, or a Liane Moriarty to it - and that's just the Australian authors I' can think of off the top of my head. There are Canadian books on almost every listopia (minus the geography ones, of course.)
A book by a New Zealand author might be a challenge. I'll admit that I don't think I've ever read one. But by grouping Australia and Canada in there, it's very much a "read a book" prompt.