Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow (includes spoilers)

[Ann D]

Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow is Gabrielle Zevin's 10th book. Although some of her previous books have been successful, she really hit the jackpot with this one. It received excellent reviews, debuted on the New York Times Best Seller List at number 3 and has sold over a million copies globally.

For an interesting interview with Zevin about her book, check out this July 2022 interview on the New York Times Book Review podcast. It is at the beginning of the show, and you can listen to it at this link. Scroll to the red rectangle and hit play.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/01/bo...

Zevin has a good sense of humor and I enjoyed her banter with Jimmy Fallon after he chose her book as the first selection for his new book club.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAL-o...

The book has two interesting protagonists. Sadie and Sam meet as kids in a hospital where Sadie visits her sister who is fighting cancer and where Sam is hospitalized for months due to a terrible car accident in which he broke the bones in his foot in 27 places. They bond over playing video games at the hospital. Both Sadie and Sam are preternaturally intelligent and creative. It’s not often that intellectual nerds are main characters in fiction, is it? Like the author, Sam is half Jewish and half Korean. Sadie comes from a wealthy Jewish family. They grow up to be game show designers, collaborators, and best friends, but their relationship never becomes romantic and it is interrupted by some very rough patches.

To get the discussion started, I would like to ask a few questions.

The whole book revolves around the world of video game design. My only experience with video games was briefly playing my sons' The Overland Trail computer game. I became very invested in not dying before I reached the end of the trail. Soon I realized I had to give it up because it was way too time consuming.

At any rate, although the world of video games was pretty much foreign to me, Zevin kept me very interested in the setting of her story. How about you? Could you relate?

As per usual, I was mostly interested in the characters – Sadie, Sam, Marx, and Dov.

Sadie’s and Sam’s relationship was the heart of the story and unusual in that they loved each other but it never progressed to a traditional romance.

Why not?

The pair experienced some deep estrangements. Did you sympathize more with Sadie or with Sam?

[Justin]

Ann D., thanks so much for nominating this book. I really enjoyed it. Like you, I found the video-game context very interesting. I liked that so many of the games I played as a child appeared, but I also thought the games invented in the story (e.g., Solution, EmilyBlaster) were brilliant.

I thought it was important that Sadie and Sam's relationship didn't progress to a traditional romance. It stayed true to the idea of friendship (or "frenemy") and collaboration: "Because true collaborators in this life are rare."

I sympathized with both Sadie and Sam, and probably to an equal degree, but for different reasons (e.g., Sadie's loss and insecurity, Sam's aloneness and physical suffering).

Dov was the one character who I did not like. Not at all.

[Donna]

This book started out slowly for me but in a very short while I became pulled into Sadie and Sam's story. One of the things I'm enjoying about the book is the way it moves back and forth in time. I think this is a much more interesting and effective structure than a simple linear chronology would be.

I have been known to become addicted to a few of my children's games back in the day! I played Burger Time like a demon after they went to bed. And I was a total Tetris freak for a while - lol. Many of the games and game systems in the book I know a little about vicariously through my kids and grands.

I will probably wait to read and join in the discussion when I finish. I'm really enjoying the book!

[Ethan]

I appreciate your recommendation for this book! It held the position of my favorite read last year, so I was eagerly looking forward to revisiting it. Gaming isn't typically my forte, so I initially had reservations about it being the central theme of the book. However, I discovered that what truly captivated me were the characters. In literature, we often encounter romantic relationships. Still, in this case, the emphasis on friendship allowed the author, Zevin, to shed light on the significance of those individuals who become a sort of chosen family in our lives. Both Sadie and Sam bore responsibility for the strains in their relationships, making it challenging to place blame on one more than the other. They were both grappling with their own personal issues and couldn't recognize each other as a source of comfort during those trying times.

[Lyn]

I'm at 84% through this on my Kindle; will likely finish later today, and may come back to comment more.

I have enough distracting time sucks in my life already to not add video games. But I didn't mind it at all in this story.

I am sad to learn that Sadie and Sam don't get together (was kind of hoping for that in the end). At this point, it seems like Sadie has misjudged Sam wrongly and negatively rather repeatedly, so I am sympathizing more with Sam at this point and wish Sadie would wake up to what a good and loving friend she has, and that she has not understood his struggles.

The writing is engaging, and I like the bits of sarcastic humor in conversations occasionally.

[Ann D]

I’m glad to hear from those of you who are also enjoying this book. This is not the kind of book that my in-person book club would like - too different. It’s originality, with both the video game framework and the development of the characters, is why I liked it so much.

I agree with you who pointed out that the author set out to write a story about love in the form of a deep friendship rather than a romance. Sadie was wrapped up in her on and off again destructive relationship with Dov. Sam was very lonely, but he was not much interested in sex at all. On page 194, the reader learns “he had had four different sexual partners in his life, and he had never enjoyed sex with any of them.” He had endured so much physical pain in his life that he preferred to ignore his body altogether. So, romance was clearly off the table.

There were some very serious breaks in their friendship. My sympathy wavered between Sam and Sadie, but I lost patience with Sadie after Sam wrote the video game for her and she still wouldn’t see him. Sam needed her and she was too broken (I guess) to help him. I was anxious for them to get back together again as close friends. Do you see that as happening?

Justin mentioned how much he disliked Dov. Why do you think that Sadie hooked up with him and then kept the relationship going so long? Was Sam responsible for her reconnecting with Dov because he wanted the software engine? Or was that blame misplaced?

[Lyn]

I think Sadie hooked up with Dov because she looked up to his game development abilities and wanted his approval as a mentor. That's also why she continued the friendship with him after they broke up. Sadie tends to not take responsibility for her own decisions and blame Sam for them; neither Sam nor anyone else can be responsible for one's relationship decisions. For Sadie's petulance and immaturity in this way (blaming and wrongly thinking Sam's choices were made for negative reasons), I often wondered what Sam saw in her.

I finished the book, and was glad to see their friendship reconnect, and for Sadie to explain to Sam that she felt that an intimate working collaboration was rarer and worth more than a romantic relationship. I do kind of feel similarly, and looked mainly for partnership, friendship, and mutual respect in a man (but ultimately learned that for my main guy, nurturing mothering combined with a woman being a little helpless and intellectually looking up to him (in another, more childish woman) was a more intoxicating brew for him).

The games component of this novel was done very creatively, especially Pioneer, so that I was intrigued rather than my usual boredom with video games. The content of the games contributed to the relationship stories.

Thanks for nominating this book!

[Erika]

I really enjoyed this book; thank you for choosing it.

I (female) have a lifelong male friend who is indeed my closest friend, a friendship much like Sam and Sadie's, I think, and one that was never (and because we are both married will presumably never be) romantic, though friends and parents often thought it would become so. I read their story through this lens, and it rang true to me. In another world, sure, a romance might have happened, as indeed happened with Emily Marks and Dr. Daedelus, but not in this world. I don't see her as petulant and immature, any more than I see Sam that way, though. She was pregnant and lost the love of her life and father of her baby, to a kid who came in to shoot Sam, for heaven's sake; how do you just move on after that and not revisit that tragedy every single time you see Sam? (And it's not like he was always a paragon of maturity, either.) The pain was real, I think. He made a grand gesture, in the end, and it worked. Writing these stories (games) was their love language, I think.

As for Dov. He did not bother me, really. He did see Sadie for who she was, I think; he did recognize her genius and genuinely wanted her to succeed. He matured, too, over the course of the story, his life, and so forth. I love the fact that they could eat together a decade or two later and laugh about it all, affectionately. "There comes a time," she writes, and I loved this line, "when life largely consists of having meals with old friends who are passing through town."

[Lynn]

Erika wrote: "I really enjoyed this book; thank you for choosing it.

.... Writing these stories (games) was their love language, I think...."

That's an excellent observation, Erika. I wish I'd thought of it.

[Lyn]

I never said or thought that Sadie should "just move on," Erika, just that she didn't need to blame and punish Sam for Marx's death. Her immaturity was often failing to look past herself. Sam's failing, IMO, was not to stand up for himself a little more.

In what way did you Sam as petulant or immature, Erika? My thought was that he was wrong to hide so much of his excruciating phantom limb pain from Sadie, and to not defend himself with the truth when she wrongly accused him several times of being selfish and greedy.

[Erika]

Oh, gosh, Lyn, I am so sorry that it sounded like the "for heaven's sake; how do you just move on ..." was directed to you!!! No, no, I was thinking more about Sam's reaction, not yours. Or to people in general who (in story) might think she should move on. As people often do, when a partner/lover dies. They expect you to move on, and I felt so deeply for her, as this must have been utterly devastating. Her reaction struck me as entirely real and normal and explicable. Of course it hurt him, and of course he was right, the company had to continue, and she did need to buck up, but at the same time, oh my goodness, I have seen this before, where all the reminders are Just. Too. Much., and you have to shut down.

For my own part, I am not sure either was petulant. (I meant only that I don't think Sadie was any more petulant and immature than Sam. And that amount was modest, in my view. I suppose he was a bit petulant at the start when he shut down communication in reaction to the sense that he'd just been a community service project for her. But he was also a kid, and I'm not sure that's a fair criticism. He certainly became the adult in the room after Marx was killed.)

His stubbornness about his foot, and his secrecy about the trauma in his past, . . . contributed to their moments of not really seeing each other truly. But I wouldn't say that he owed her this information, or that she owed him engagement after Marx died (for him, effectively). I wouldn't blame either of them, and in the end, I think they are both pretty heroic. (I think he could have done a bit more to correct the broader emerging narrative that Sam, and not equally Sadie, was the creative force behind their games. She wasn't exactly champing at the bit to trumpet her own horn, to be sure, and it's always hard to know where to land the blame, especially in fields dominated by men.)

Marx is worth digging into a bit, I think. He's less well developed than the other characters and plays an odd role in the story. He provides, he facilitates, he organizes, he manages, in a bafflingly benevolent way . . . he's weirdly pure . . . and then he basically dies for Sam, in what might have been his only misjudgment (?) though he very nearly succeeded.

[Barbara]

I've been thinking a lot about Sadie's position in what was essentially the male world of gaming. I believe that is one reason why she let Dov have so much control over her initially. He seemed like the God of the field and she was outnumbered. His approval was extremely important to her and made others see her as capable as well. After Dov, she was determined to not let anyone else put her in that position. So, that made another barrier to her relationship with Sam. While thriving in the limelight, he also took some of it away from her. With her position in the gaming world, that was close to unforgivable. I've been surprised that, in the interviews, Zevin hasn't talked more about that aspect of the novel. Or, at least, I haven't found it yet.

Ann, thanks so much for posting the links to the NYTimes Book Review podcast with Gabriel Zevin. I almost always listen to those and I missed that one. I also loved the Tonight show excerpt.

[Ethan]

I think it is interesting, too, to dive into the role memory has within the story. Sam, especially, is haunted by the memory of his mother and the horrific accident that forever changed his life. As the decades moved on, Sadie became entwined with this same sense of remembrance, and I think that may have something to do with her continued relationship with Dov. She seemed unable to let go but was also unwilling to repeat herself. Sam, on the other hand, was consistently either running from or trying to recapture moments in his past. It makes for an interesting dichotomy.

[Ann D]

Ethan, interesting comments on the nature of memory for these characters.

Did you notice that characters named "Anna Lee" appear 3 times in the story, The first one was Sam's mother; it was also the name of the woman who committed suicide by jumping from the 6th story and landing in front of Sam and his Mom, and finally it was the name of Marx's mother. I wonder what it all meant.

I have read that 50% of Koreans have the surname Kim, "Lee (sometimes transliterated as "Yi"), or Park. I was intrigued that Zevin chose multiple "Anna"s.

[Gina]

I'm still reading but am unable to get these nuggets of wisdom from this book. I see everyone as immature and feel I'm in a college class with too much drama. I will continue to read this and I'm glad everyone is enjoying the book. I wish I could.

[Ruth]

I agree with you, Gina. I stuck it out to the end , but long before that I wanted to just grab everyone up and bang their heads together. They worked hard and had every chance for happiness in their lives but repeatedly made the same mistakes, and didn’t learn from them or even attempt to seek help.

[Ethan]

Ann, I missed that, but it certainly speaks to the interconnectivity of everyone!

[Mary Anne]

I gave the book 4 stars, so I wasn't as enamored with it as many other readers. Here are my issues:
The initial fight between Sadie and Sam: this is very serious business to Sam, but neither Sadie nor thereby the reader "gets" the significance. In today's parlance, she has appropriated Sam's disability for her own benefit. True, Sadie is only 13, but it shouldn't be up to Sam, in this case the victim, to spell out the problem. At some point, she really needs to spend the time with Sam so she can fully understand why he's so angry. Instead, she drifts away. I had a hard time trusting her as a character after that.
Perhaps that is why, when she gets together with Dov, I was not surprised. In fact, I was reminded of the book Fates and Furies at that point.
Finally, rather than seeing a love duo, I saw love triangles: Sadie, Sam and Dov or Sadie, Marx and Sam.
If you agree with everything on the book flap and in the blurbs, I have it all wrong. I did feel the writing was strong. But I just couldn't buy all of the marketing.

[Ann D]

Mary Ann. Lynn alerted me to a William Kent Krueger book signing at our local independent book store last night. We don't get that many book signings in Omaha and I was very glad I went.

You mentioned the blurbs on the cover of this book. Krueger made a point of telling the standing room only audience to never, ever trust blurbs. Many times, the blurber (?) hasn't even read the book.

I had some problems with Sadie too, but I cut them both a lot of slack when they are so young. The families of these two kids sure tried to bring them together after the break. Sam was invited to Sadie's Bat Mitzvah, and Sam's grandparents really wanted him to go.

You are so right about the love triangles in this book. Sam wasn't jealous of her other lovers, but Marx was his second best friend and that really hurt. I wondered why Sam and Marx didn't openly confront Sadie about those bondage injuries. Maybe in a sense they did when they agreed to all go to LA.

[Ann D]

Ruth and Gina, thanks for being honest. It would be a boring group if we all liked the same books.

These characters were certainly very young. By the end of the book, I think that Sadie, in particular, had matured. Being somewhat obsessive compulsive, I could relate to the two of them getting so wrapped up in their game designs. As they both recognized in the final encounters of the book, game design is a young person's forte.
They were lucky to be involved with it in its early days and no longer had that kind of drive.

[Ann D]

Barb,
Good point about Sadie's concerns about being treated fairly in an almost exclusively male field. I thought her defensiveness about getting credit was overdone at times, but then I remind myself how really difficult it was for a female to be treated seriously back then - and too often today.

[Justin]

So many interesting thoughts have been raised in the comments!

Ann D., the point about Sam and sex is interesting and complex. It seems he had sexual desire but, because of discomfort with his body, he preferred masturbation (per p. 194). I wonder if his feelings about his body and sex explain why he never actually made a “move” on Sadie. Per your question about Sam and Sadie getting back together as friends, I think they do; that is my interpretation of the ending.

Lyn and Barbara, I agree on Dov. Sadie wanted his approval as a mentor, and to learn from him, and Dov leveraged his position of authority to engage in what was, at least initially, a morally problematic relationship (student-teacher). Barbara made an awesome point about Sadie also likely feeling that Dov’s knowledge/influence was particularly important in the male-dominated world of video-game development.

All that said, later it became clear that, as Erika mentioned, Dov did care about Sadie and believed her to be a genius. The complexity of the characters and of their relationships is part of what made this book so much fun to read. Dov certainly isn’t a good guy (cheating on his wife, sleeping with students), but he isn’t totally bad either.

Ethan’s comments about the haunting memories in the book (e.g., of Sam’s mother’s death in the car accident, and the dead lady they saw earlier that caused their move) bring up another point, which dovetails with Mary Ann’s comment on the initial fight between Sadie and Sam: How come more attention wasn’t given later in the book to that initial fight, or to Alice? I was especially surprised that Alice didn’t play a larger role in the book.

One thing I did note and thought was important was that whereas Sadie was there for Sam in the hospital, at the start, partly because of the “community service” credit she got, Sam was there for Sadie many times (e.g., when she was dealing with depression) simply because he cared about her.

[Donna]

I’ve been wondering why it was Sam rather than Sadie who was able to go out and be the gregarious, entertaining spokesperson for Ishigo (something that Sadie harbors a grudge about). It seems like such an unlikely role for Sam, who was relationally uncommunicative, socially awkward, and somewhat hidden. Did I miss something?