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Weekly TLS > What are we reading? 11/09/2023

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message 51: by AB76 (last edited Sep 16, 2023 01:39AM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments scarletnoir wrote: "MK wrote: "It's not mosquitoes that concern me, but flies. I really don't like them."

Well, we don't get plagues of those either in the two areas I'm familiar with - west Wales (small town) and Br..."


flies are not a problem in my house but can be quite bad at my parents, only a few miles west. its a converted 1820s oast house and the flies seem to thrive in every room, all year round, along with a summer hornet visitation and last summer, in the intense heat, one oast was covered in swarms of bees for the whole of August, it was an amazing sight.

on the subject of bees, on my stroll to the shop just now, i was glad to see masses of solitary bees on a lawn nearby, the lawn was alive with these ground nesting lovelies, not one came near me or bothered me, all busy with their duties. from their late emergence, they could be ivy bees, the last solitary bee to emerge in the UK


message 52: by Robert (last edited Sep 16, 2023 10:09PM) (new)

Robert | 1036 comments One of the books I'm poking into is Fading Victory : The Diary Of Admiral Matome Ugaki, a senior Japanese naval officer during World War II. I am already struck by Ugaki's reflections at the beginning, when war seems imminent and the Japanese Cabinet seems rudderless. Ugaki criticizes the decision to enter into the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy, which placed Japan on a collision course with the US and Britain. Surprisingly, this Japanese admiral would have preferred an alliance with the Russians. I'm intrigued by his independent stance. More later.

After looking at the reigns of Pope Pius XI and Pope Pius XII, I needed some relief. Witness To Hope: The Biography of Pope John Paul II provided it. The Polish philosopher who became Pope had lived through war and occupation, and was focused on fundamentals. The life of the individual had been reduced to nothing by Hitler and Stalin. Now civil society needed to rebuild, What should be the base?What were the essential things, and what value does the life of a man have? After decades of lies, he was concerned with the value of life. He had a Ghandian idea of political protest-- to stand firm, but without violence or demagogy. More worthy of a Nobel Prize than several who have won it.

The Pope and Mussolini : the secret history of Pius XI and the rise of Fascism in Europe was well written and had good character sketches of the principals. The history wasn't as secret as our author claimed; after the treaty that ended the years of tension between the Church and the Italian state, Vatican City was established as a small principality, and the Church publicly supported Mussolini's policies in war and peace. The secret material concerns internal documents, including the observations of Mussolini's spies. (There were quite a number of them.)
When the author described the 1930s Church's obsession with women's bare backs at the beach, it amused me to recall Peggy Noonan's comments on her visits to the Vatican in Rome's summer heat. Underdressed women were urged to--and did-- buy temporary paper "clothes," so that they were at least draped when they entered St. Peter's....

Soldiers Don't Go Mad by Charles Glass is a good, humane book on treatment of post-traumatic stress during World War I. This book deserves more study. But I have a stack of good ones...

Vargas Llosa has been a source of rich reading for years. His Harsh Times has promise; he has reintroduced two of his best villains, the cynical Trujillo and his creepy chief spy.


message 53: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments Robert wrote: "One of the books I'm poking into is Fading Victory : The Diary Of Admiral Matome Ugaki, a senior Japanese naval officer during World War II. I am already struck by Ugaki's reflections at the beginn..."

glad to see you are enjoying Ugaki Robert and the vargas llosa novel which i read in the winter. i was interested to see Trujillo and his henchman back in town, so to speak, providing a sinister, murderous presence


message 54: by AB76 (last edited Sep 16, 2023 10:35AM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments The Nord and Pas De Calais are regions of France i have a fondness for, more so than the obviously more beautiful Normandy or Brittany, all four of which regions share the climate of southern britain and ethnically are linked too with Norman-Celtic origins.

Cobb in his French & Germans Germans & French spends the first 67 pages of his book focusing on the Nord region and its two occupations (1914-18 and 1940-44). The Nord borders the mining areas of Belgium up to Dunkirk at the sea and is a working class, catholic area with flemish architecture in many towns.

De Gaulle, Petain and Thorez(French communist leader)were sons of the North, though only De Gaulle was from Nord, born in Lille. I hadnt realised that Petain did not visit Nord or Pas De Calais once during the Vichy Years, that suprised me a lot.

Its interesting that some of the occupiers of Nord in 1940 came as relatives of the occupiers in 1914, one german officer had all the notes and maps his uncle had compiled in 1914!


message 55: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments scarletnoir wrote: "MK wrote: "It's not mosquitoes that concern me, but flies. I really don't like them."

Well, we don't get plagues of those either in the two areas I'm familiar with - west Wales (small town) and Br..."


I have fond memories of loon calls in the evenings while at summer camp (Girl Scout) in Maine.

Perhaps development itself is an issue. I wonder if more people and more building along lake edges means that loons get displaced.


message 56: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments After the disappointment of Broadway Butterfly, I have returned to the 'tried and true' and am re-reading an early Mamur Zapt mystery, The Mamur Zapt and the Donkey-vous. It's been long enough that it is almost a fresh start.

One of the reasons I keep the copies of this series on my shelves is that they are a 'two-fer', which means I get a good mystery with the added attraction of learning about a different culture. The Mamur Zapt series takes place during the English rule of Egypt and brings together some of the idiosyncrasies of both societies - there's Shepheard's Hotel and words like Capitulations and corvée, plus the oddity of Egypt's police and investigations that were a legacy of France's (Napoleon) occupation.

What's not to like.


message 57: by Robert (new)

Robert | 1036 comments AB76 wrote: "The Nord and Pas De Calais are regions of France i have a fondness for, more so than the obviously more beautiful Normandy or Brittany, all four of which regions share the climate of southern brita..."

Sometimes De Gaulle's critics went after him for calling himself a "boy from Lille growing up in Paris"-- but since his mother and both of his grandmothers were from Lille (his parents were cousins), and the close-knit De Gaulle family had holidays in the north, there must have been much Nord influence.


message 58: by AB76 (last edited Sep 17, 2023 01:24AM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "The Nord and Pas De Calais are regions of France i have a fondness for, more so than the obviously more beautiful Normandy or Brittany, all four of which regions share the climate of s..."

yes i visited his childhood home in lille about a decade ago and one got the feeling he was deeply tied to the catholic traditions of the region. His wife was from the north as well, Calais i think.

Petain was from a very different background, peasent origins but both men seem to have encountered each other a lot before WW2 and then after as well of course.

i found the Nord region on my visits to be very similar to England in many ways, except for the Catholicism. The people resembed the english much more, blue eyes and fair hair very common, my ancestors on my fathers side were from Picardy, Hugenots(french protestants) who left France in 1720, the surname was De Bay


message 59: by FrancesBurgundy (new)

FrancesBurgundy | 319 comments Robert wrote: "the close-knit De Gaulle family had holidays in the north"

De Gaulle's wife Yvonne came from Calais, and there's a more-than-lifesize statue of the couple in the Place d'Armes there.


message 60: by Robert (new)

Robert | 1036 comments AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "The Nord and Pas De Calais are regions of France i have a fondness for, more so than the obviously more beautiful Normandy or Brittany, all four of which regions share t..."

Petain was De Gaulle's commanding officer before the First World War; it was Petain who wrote to De Gaulle's family when it was believed that the younger man had died at Verdun.
Instead, De Gaulle had been captured, and spent the remainder of the war in German POW camps. (Three escape attempts, all unsuccessful.)
De Gaulle thought that his time in camps, while others were active, meant the end of his career. Instead Petain, who treated De Gaulle rather like a brilliant, rebellious son, revived his career after the war. De Gaulle was given interesting assignments-- to act as a teacher in France, to act as a military adviser in Poland, to serve in Syria. Then he served on Petain's staff for years (and ghostwrote a book for him).
The first volume of Le Couture's bio (the English translation, The Rebel) has much interesting material on the connections between the two.


message 61: by AB76 (last edited Sep 17, 2023 02:27AM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "The Nord and Pas De Calais are regions of France i have a fondness for, more so than the obviously more beautiful Normandy or Brittany, all four of which re..."

thanks robert, i didnt know a lot of that, the father-son dynamic is interesting. I must read some of De Gaulle's books, the Jackson biog mentioned them

I'm looking foward to Jacksons book on the Petain trial coming out in paperback

Petain's life after 1940 is a tragic tale really. this dour, womanising son of the north, a WW1 hero became a devil. Nowadays bandying dementia slurs around is not fair but i do wonder if he wasnt of sound mind by 1940 and lost in a kind of absurd nostalgia for the france of his childhood, a less secular nation etc


message 62: by AB76 (last edited Sep 17, 2023 02:31AM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments MK wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "MK wrote: "It's not mosquitoes that concern me, but flies. I really don't like them."

Well, we don't get plagues of those either in the two areas I'm familiar with - west Wales..."


not strictly literature related but during the house music boom of the 1980s(electronic dance music), the "loon call" sample on many snyths was used extensively and remains a sound of my youth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grisB...


message 63: by AB76 (last edited Sep 17, 2023 01:09PM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments Watched a BBC documentary on Andrew Tate, which seemed relevant with the Russell Brand revelations but found it was a kind of quest for answers involving doorstepping and some vague ideas thrown in, rather than an analysis of Tate and his impact on young teenage men in last three years.

It made me think that the art of documentary film making is losing its highbrow standards, chasing something which tells you nothing and leaves you feeling cheated.

Non-fiction books on the same subject have started to do the same thing, like the recent book about the investigation into the Olaf Palme murder in the mid 80s. I watched the documentary but i dont think i would want to read the book. There is a serious deficit in the art of reportage and investigation, there are many brilliant documentaries out there but many leave you wondering why you bothered


message 64: by Robert (new)

Robert | 1036 comments AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "The Nord and Pas De Calais are regions of France i have a fondness for, more so than the obviously more beautiful Normandy or Brittany, all f..."

The work on the trial sounds interesting. Thanks for the tip.


message 65: by Robert (new)

Robert | 1036 comments AB76 wrote: "Watched a BBC documentary on Andrew Tate, which seemed relevant with the Russell Brand revelations but found it was a kind of quest for answers involving doorstepping and some vague ideas thrown in..."

Is the Palme case still unsolved?


message 66: by Robert (new)

Robert | 1036 comments SWIFT JUSTICE: MURDER AND VENGEANCE IN A CALIFORNIA TOWN By Harry Farrell is first-rate journalism. Farrell was a small boy when his home town, San Jose California, was shaken by a murder, followed by a mob storming the county jail.

No trial on the first murder; no suspects on the murder by the mob. It was the story of a lifetime, literally. Decades later Farrell, then a San Jose journalist, did new research on the old case. Who led the mob? The old-timers had kept their mouths closed for years. Farrell tells the story with real narrative skill, but is objective. He raises questions and lays out evidence, but doesn't claim that he's found all the answers. Rather, answers or no, the evidence raises questions, that he does his best to clarify.


message 67: by AB76 (last edited Sep 17, 2023 02:39PM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Watched a BBC documentary on Andrew Tate, which seemed relevant with the Russell Brand revelations but found it was a kind of quest for answers involving doorstepping and some vague id..."

yes, the swedish police fingered somebody who was a clearly not the suspect, in a suspected deal with the south african govt(according to docu) recently. i suspect it was Craig Williamson, a south african secret police agent, who killed Palme with swedish fascist help but as yet, still unsolved

the deal with the modern SA govt is depressing if true, considering the situation now and the crime was committed in the apartheid days

the docu was on sky, called The Man Who Played With Fire

https://www.nowtv.com/watch/the-man-w...


message 68: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "The Nord and Pas De Calais are regions of France i have a fondness for, more so than the obviously more beautiful Normandy or Br..."

its going to be a very interesting read i'm sure, just not till 2025 probably. i never buy hardback


message 69: by AB76 (last edited Sep 18, 2023 03:30AM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments i see penguin have revived their classic green cover "crime and espionage" series, which is welcome and as usual they are out quickly and very affordable

https://www.creativereview.co.uk/peng...

when i finish the Szabo novel i have already selected one of these crime and espionage novels, Ross Macdonalds The Drowning Pool


message 70: by giveusaclue (last edited Sep 18, 2023 06:09AM) (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments Two years ago I read and enjoyed

The Fine Art of Invisible Detection by Robert Goddard

It starts in Japan where the heroine worked as a secretary for a private detective. He is killed off and she takes of the business My memory being what it is I can't remember all the plot except that it is complicated and moved around the world with a great ending.

I have just started the follow up:

The Fine Art of Uncanny Prediction From the author of the BBC 2 Between the Covers hit, The Fine Art of Invisible Detection by Robert Goddard

It starts with a flashback to 1945 where in the ruins of WWII in Japan a young lad who has been brought up in a rather dubious orphanage is taken by the owner back to the ruins of the building. There he is instructed to get a steel box from the safe. During that time the owner is accidently knocked down into the flooded basement and drowns. The boy disappears with the box. The story flashes forward to 1995 and 2022 and the modern situation regarding the orphan and others who benefitted from the rebuilding after the war. One wants our heroine to find his son who has disappeared, and another (head of a large corporation) wants her to very discreetly found to whom and why his recently deceased father had been paying the equivalent of £13k per month since the end of the war. She has to do all this while coping with her rather snidey mother!

So far I am enjoying this one as much as the last, although concentration is required to remember which year we are in!

Not the best of reviews, but I would recommend these books to anyone who likes their mysteries a little quirky.


message 71: by MK (last edited Sep 18, 2023 07:17AM) (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "The Nord and Pas De Calais are regions of France i have a fondness for, more so than the obviously more beautiful..."

Me either. My reason, though, is that weight matters as hardbacks seem to get heavier as the years pass. I'm sure it's a personal problem.


message 72: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments When it comes to library books, I often read either by due date or, if it's new and popular, before I have to return in thanks to outstanding holds.

Then there are older books that no one but me seems to be interested in. These I tend to put off (plenty of books ahead in the TBR pile) until I get close to the end of being able to renew it. One of those is No Leading Lady: An Autobiography by R.C. Sherriff. Last night I thought I'd read a chapter before bed. Silly me. I had no idea R.C. Sherriff was a playwright so I was unprepared for the drama around getting a play on the London stage, and keeping it there, was such a page turner. This morning, when I Googled 'Journey's End, I found a link to the Imperial War Museum. Who knew, not I.

I still have several days before I have to return it, so I will be continuing to see what's next. Note that although the cover says 'autobiography', it's more of a memoir.


message 73: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments AB76 wrote: "i see penguin have revived their classic green cover "crime and espionage" series, which is welcome and as usual they are out quickly and very affordable

https://www.creativereview.co.uk/peng......"


I went scrolling through Penguin's list, just because, and found Chester Himes there. I now plan to visit the Queen Anne library (next hill east of me) tomorrow to pick up a copy of A Rage in Harlem for a look-see.


message 74: by Bill (new)

Bill FromPA (bill_from_pa) | 1791 comments MK wrote: "I went scrolling through Penguin's list, just because, "

Despite this not being a genre I'm generally interested in, I too took a look, and was reminded that my shelves contain, unread, The Night of the Hunter and The Deadly Percheron.

https://www.penguin.co.uk/series/PNGC...


message 75: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments Bill wrote: "MK wrote: "I went scrolling through Penguin's list, just because, "

Despite this not being a genre I'm generally interested in, I too took a look, and was reminded that my shelves contain, unread,..."


The Night of the Hunter would be my choice for 'whyever did I buy this book?', but I see that Powells has a copy of the The Deadly Percheron, so if I get to Portland as planned, I may have check it out.

In the meantime for Slow Horses fans, I have downloaded The Secret Hours and will report back once I've listened to it. Until then, here's a blurb on it - https://www.seattletimes.com/entertai... which I hope can be read.


message 76: by Bill (new)

Bill FromPA (bill_from_pa) | 1791 comments MK wrote: "The Night of the Hunter would be my choice for 'whyever did I buy this book?'"

Oh, I know exactly why I bought it ...
description


message 77: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments Bill wrote: "MK wrote: "The Night of the Hunter would be my choice for 'whyever did I buy this book?'"

Oh, I know exactly why I bought it ...
"


I am a wuss. I seem to remember that someone here - you? - likes books that give me the shivers. While I am from Maine, the only Stephen King book I've ever read was his memoir.


message 78: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments On an oxfam browse about six months ago, i picked up a novel by James Barlow, an english writer who died fairly young. The novel, a penguin paperback in good condition was The Patriots and it could be my next read

Happenstance is a great thing with book browsing, i had never heard of Barlow or the novel but there it was in the 99p paperback section of my local Oxfam(in town we have two, one for knick knacks and one for books)


message 79: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6653 comments Mod
giveusaclue wrote: "Two years ago I read and enjoyed The Fine Art of Invisible Detection
I have just started the follow up: The Fine Art of Uncanny Prediction ..."


Thanks — I'd read the first but hadn't seen there was a follow-up. However I'll be waiting a while as it's much too expensive for the moment here.


message 80: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments The Fawn by Magda Szabo(1959) is remarkable for its unflinching and quite dark depictions of feminine interactions and emotions within troubled environments

I likened her to Ferrante, who knows she may have influenced Ferrante, certainly i have rarely read such an honest book about female motivations and thoughts, the style is interesting in the way it approaches the society of 1930s,40s and 50s Hungary as well. One doesnt feel the narrator is a second class citizen, though


message 81: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments MK wrote: "I went scrolling through Penguin's list, just because, and found Chester Himes there. I now plan to visit the Queen Anne library (next hill east of me) tomorrow to pick up a copy of A Rage in Harlem for a look-see."

I quite like Himes's Coffin Ed and Grave Digger cop books... not the most subtle, but good to get a black version of that type of novel... they react as one would expect to the unsurprising racism of fellow cops and suspects alike. This one (I think) has a very funny car chase, too...

His best book, though - a real cry of rage against the racism of the times is If He Hollers Let Him Go about a shipyard worker in LA in the 1940s - IMO, of course.


message 82: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments MK wrote: ".
The Night of the Hunter would be my choice for 'whyever did I buy this book?'"


Do you mean that the book is no good? The (Robert Mitchum/ Charles Laughton) film is brilliant, but that can happen.


message 83: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments A book I might possibly treat myself to as a birthday or Christmas present (more expensive than my usual buys):

The Dictionary People: The Unsung Heroes Who Created the Oxford English Dictionary, about the contributors to the first OED... it might be a lot of fun (or maybe not) and if anyone has read it I'd like an opinion! From the Guardian review:

Several of the volunteers that Ogilvie chose to feature in the book suffered from severe mental illness... “Was it their madness that drove them to do so much dictionary work, or was it the dictionary work that drove them mad?” asks Ogilvie in the “L for Lunatics” chapter.

Haha!
https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...


message 84: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments scarletnoir wrote: "MK wrote: ".
The Night of the Hunter would be my choice for 'whyever did I buy this book?'"

Do you mean that the book is no good? The (Robert Mitchum/ Charles Laughton) film is brilliant, but that..."


Not my cup of tea. I stay far away from anything that might scare me, even when it comes to mysteries as I lean more to Miss Marple's kind of corpses.


message 85: by Bill (new)

Bill FromPA (bill_from_pa) | 1791 comments MK wrote: "I stay far away from anything that might scare me, even when it comes to mysteries as I lean more to Miss Marple's kind of corpses."

I don’t think I’ve ever been scared when reading a book since I was very young – even then the things that scared me needed to be, nominally at least, non-fiction, such as the creepy Forteana that appeared in various collections by Frank Edwards.

If I’ve found any of my reading as an adult (and frequent pedestrian) scary, it would be Stephen King’s account of being struck by a pickup truck and subsequent hospitalization in On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft, a book you’ve also read.


message 86: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments Bill wrote: "MK wrote: "I stay far away from anything that might scare me, even when it comes to mysteries as I lean more to Miss Marple's kind of corpses."

I don’t think I’ve ever been scared when reading a b..."


Reading seems to be a 'different strokes for different folks' thing. I remember that stupid person who had (I think) meat stored in a box on the back seat along with a dog. What could go wrong?

Also I wonder why it is that some like to delve deeply into a subject while I (at least in my mind) tend to flit from one subject to another - the only exception is a really good mystery series like Cynthia Harrod-Eagles Bill Slider books where I wait for the next one to drop.

The real problem is there are way too many authors writing too many books! That said, I've just put Mr. Texas by Lawrence Wright on hold at the library in hopes that I will find something a little bit funny coming out of the Lone Star State for a change. (This past weekend, the Seattle Times had a feature about a family that moved from Austin, Texas to the East Side (a local thing where a big lake separates Seattle from what were once suburbs but are now substantial cities themselves) so they could nuture their trans child without fear.)


message 87: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments Vichy France is a topic that just never fails to fascinate and horrify, that Germany managed to regress so badly between 1933-45 is ingrained in the narrative now and the blame for so much sadism, violence and murder lays firmly at Germanys door but in that period, of all the nations that collaborated with the Nazi';s, Vichy France is the most complex and the most sinister

There was no grand reckoning for collabs akin to the vindictive soviet justice meted out to the various central and eastern european allies of Hitler, only Finland possibly left the Nazi fold in a more sedate manner(though the Finnish "alliance" is complex too and was not idealogical in the slightest)

However Vichy France did see violence meted out to its collabs, to its "horizontal collabs" and to a good number of the top brass, however many of its fonctainnares prospered in the post war french state that emerged from 1945, unlike collabs in the DDR or the soviet satellites where dirty deeds were still in vogue.

I'm not sure it is possible either to find a definitive reason for the collabs, despite the great work by Nord and other historians in the excellent histories of the period, its more shades of grey and necessity. As Cobb mentions in his book i am reading, was the bus driver transporting civil servants to work a "collab", how far does that term apply, when millions continued to live under a Fascist state, without speaking out.

There will be many, many more studies of this era and they will fascinate for decades


message 88: by giveusaclue (last edited Sep 19, 2023 04:38PM) (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments AB76 wrote: "Vichy France is a topic that just never fails to fascinate and horrify, that Germany managed to regress so badly between 1933-45 is ingrained in the narrative now and the blame for so much sadism, ..."

AB, I read this series a while ago, yes it is another crime series but is set in the time of the German Occupation. I found it very interesting learning something of what it was like to live during that time:
https://www.fantasticfiction.com/m/al...


message 89: by scarletnoir (new)

scarletnoir | 4411 comments AB76 wrote: "I'm not sure it is possible... to find a definitive reason for the collabs, despite the great work by Nord and other historians in the excellent histories of the period, its more shades of grey and necessity."

Indeed. I'm no expert on this topic, but have formed a few ideas over my years of involvement with France. Reasons for collaboration included:

1. Conviction - there were French fascists who as far as I understand it collaborated quite freely and cheerfully with the Nazis - besides which doing so afforded them positions of power.
2. Pragmatism (as seen by those concerned): France had 'lost the war', so it was better to make the best of a bad job.
3. Fear - my mother-in-law saw a number of young resistants shot dead in the square of her village. (Father-in-law already a prisoner of war at that point, so lucky in a way.)
4. Opportunism - there were those who saw the war as a chance to make a profit.
5. Settling old scores - some were 'denounced' to the Nazis not because they were actually resistants, but because the grass held a grudge.
6. Anti-semitism - it was a thing in France, too, as well as (I guess) all other countries to some extent.
7. Minority groups who opposed the French state - for example, a small number of Bretons saw the Nazi invasion as a chance to gain autonomy if they helped. (My wife's uncle-by-marriage was one. At the end of the war, his gang of collabos were shot dead - he survived by hiding under the corpses of some of his 'comrades'. These tensions made for some interesting family meals post-war, or so I'm told.)

So - no one reason; lots of possible reasons mixed together in different proportions for different individuals.


message 90: by Gpfr (new)

Gpfr | 6653 comments Mod
AB76 wrote: "Vichy France is a topic that just never fails to fascinate and horrify..."

I always feel de Gaulle manoeuvred skilfully to get France on the side of the winners of the war ...
I remember when it was the 50 year anniversary of the end of WWII, the results of a survey were published in Le Monde. It was asking people which nation contributed most to winning the war. I was rather taken aback to see how far down Britain came. Though maybe it's fair enough ...


message 91: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I'm not sure it is possible... to find a definitive reason for the collabs, despite the great work by Nord and other historians in the excellent histories of the period, its more shade..."

The Breton example mirrors the Baltic state and Ukrainian collabs, where they saw a chance for more representation and a chance for independence, which never came, just opportunities for murder and doing the nazi bidding


message 92: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Vichy France is a topic that just never fails to fascinate and horrify, that Germany managed to regress so badly between 1933-45 is ingrained in the narrative now and the blame for so ..."

this is on my radar, thanks for reminding me, did you find it realistic, am sceptical of a scotsman writing about french history in fiction


message 93: by giveusaclue (new)

giveusaclue | 2581 comments AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: ".this is on my radar, thanks for reminding me, did you find it realistic, am sceptical of a scotsman writing about french history in fiction"


All I can say is that I enjoyed the series, and it made me think about how difficult it must have been for people to navigate and survive through a period of occupation while trying to keep true to themselves. After all, it is very difficult to judge from the safety of one's settee 80 years later!

If you get round to reading them, do let me know what you think.


message 94: by AB76 (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: ".this is on my radar, thanks for reminding me, did you find it realistic, am sceptical of a scotsman writing about french history in fiction"


All I c..."


i agree, the dangers were so huge that many would have just kept their heads down, terror states work on that priniciple, stay out of trouble and you will probably be ok, trangress and serious implications await

Cobb mentions denounciations were a real feature of vichy and in that respect keeping your head down may only work as long as you are not the subject of a malicious rumour or greivance


message 95: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments For those of you here who like the British Library Crime Classics, the US Library of Congress has recently gotten into the act. Here's a link - https://www.novelsuspects.com/book-li...

You might want to scroll down to the end as there is additional crime stuff (links).

I vaguely remember reading Dell Shannon's Luis Mendoza books long ago - looks like a search (for some used copies) for a re-read.


message 96: by AB76 (last edited Sep 20, 2023 09:07AM) (new)

AB76 | 6939 comments MK wrote: "For those of you here who like the British Library Crime Classics, the US Library of Congress has recently gotten into the act. Here's a link - https://www.novelsuspects.com/book-li......"


I have ordered Room to Swing by Ed Lacy, looks like an interesting plot and ideas. Thanks MK, love it when this forum and previously the Guardian sends me into a browse for books i never heard of


message 97: by Robert (new)

Robert | 1036 comments scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I'm not sure it is possible... to find a definitive reason for the collabs, despite the great work by Nord and other historians in the excellent histories of the period, its more shade..."

Good list. The German influence was so pervasive that contact with the Germans alone doesn't establish collaboration... but if the person went out of his way to contact the Germans and work with them, I'd call him a collaborator. Robert Braissilac, a fascist who wanted cooperation with Germany before the war, and who published a pro-fascist paper during the occupation, would be a good example. (A good book on Braissilac, The Collaborator, came out a few years ago.)


message 98: by MK (new)

MK (emmakaye) | 1795 comments AB76 wrote: "MK wrote: "For those of you here who like the British Library Crime Classics, the US Library of Congress has recently gotten into the act. Here's a link - https://www.novelsuspects.com/book-li......"

I'm always wandering around the net and finding stuff (a proper word in this case). Today I found Michael Wolff's The Fall: The End of Fox News and the Murdoch Dynasty and Cassidy Hutchinson's Enough. Both will, no doubt end up being a flash in the pan. But my excuse for putting them on hold at the library is they are placeholders for when the audio becomes available - which I can then download and read/listen to at my leisure.

Of course I will also cheer for the day when Fox News shutters after drowning in red ink.


message 99: by Bill (new)

Bill FromPA (bill_from_pa) | 1791 comments MK wrote: " Cassidy Hutchinson's Enough"

Jeez, didn't she realize that Stephen Hough just published a memoir titled Enough?


message 100: by [deleted user] (new)

Voyage au bout de la nuit – Louis-Ferdinand Céline (1932)

So far, this is proving to be an excellent read.

It is the story of a young soldier with front-line courier duties and his bottomless rage at those responsible for the conduct of the War – the officers who send him out on missions, the doctors who work to send him back to the trenches, the ministers and businessmen who live comfortably in the rear, even the short-lived mistresses who want their heroes to have money and pass on to better prospects.

For the most part there is no cursing or outright crudity. On the surface there is a light tone of ever-evolving sarcasm, deftly expressed. Underneath, a river of molten anger at these poltroons who want to strip him of his life. He is not a coward or a conscientious objector, just a young man of 20 whose one desire is to stay alive.

Now, a quarter of the way in, he takes ship for the colonies, reprieved by his wounds from further duty at the front. He lands in a tropical port, sweltering by day, a billion mosquitoes by night. If anything his contempt for those in charge is even more extreme. You can’t help laughing. They are all brutes and imbeciles, from the Governor down. He goes for an interview for a position upcountry running a company station. The Director keeps him standing. You don’t drink? You don’t smoke? Are you a pederast? No? Pity. Those people steal less than the others.

The prose of this long book is close and engrossing. Will anyone escape evisceration?


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