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Question for self-publishing authors
Preach it. I debated querying again now that I am writing the second book but have decided not to bother. What can they do for me that I am not doing myself? Get it into bookstores? What bookstores?
Probably not.I like the control I have as a self-published author, and would need to be offered a really great contract before I'd give that up.
I mean, why would I want to hand over the rights to my own work, only to then have to continue to do almost everything myself anyway?
@J.D.I know three authors, who had to buy back their books, anywhere from $250-$850.
That's like having to buy back your baby.
For me it would depend on the publisher and what they offered. At present I am happy self publishing - it allows me a lot of freedom - the deadlines are my own. I'd agree with Victoria on this one.
@Gisela yeah, I know at least two that are having to go through a horrible process that seems to be heading toward litigation just to get back the rights on books the publisher isn't even publishing anymore. I get scared of someone else owning my books...
I agree with Victoria and A.L. It would depend what they're offering and what publisher. If they did all the work for one of my series, then that might be nice but if I'm still marketing and doing everything myself, what's the point?
J.D. - What are your agent horror stories?
I'd have to say no to the question. An advance might be nice, but unless I gain some notoriety an advance won't happen. Yeah, having my work in a brick-n-mortar might be nice, but then again unless I gain some notoriety that likely won't happen.Then again, as an indie I don't have an editor telling me: "You can't write that story, because it doesn't fall under the contract." The subjects I embrace or avoid like plague are my decision, not someone's decision made for me.
If my typography shines or bites-butt in print, as an indie it's on me -- someone else doing an extremely crappy job won't reflect on me.
Will I get rich? Probably not, but I will be able to say my success or lack thereof was due to my efforts, not people whose efforts may or may not be their best efforts.
well, not counting the complete lack of responses, I got one from an agent basically telling me to pursue another career :P Now, I love my own work but I'm willing to admit I'm not exactly unbiased. Perhaps it isn't good. But I've seen TONS of books that were worse than mine and somehow those people got to print.The worst story is that I had an agent contact me after getting my query letter and ask me to send the manuscript on paper. So I went out, all happy and excited, and fedexed it to her. After 6 months I emailed her asking how it was going (I had no idea how long I was supposed to wait) and she said she'd never heard of me before and hadn't asked for any manuscript. So I forwarded back her email and she answered that she never received the manuscript. So I forwarded her the fedex tracking information that showed she'd accepted it.
I realized at this point I was burning a bridge but I was so ticked off because she'd asked me not to shop it while she looked. She finally got back to me saying to send it as a word document so I did that. A few hours later I got back a two word email "no thanks."
When I was younger, I wrote poetry and short fiction and got lots of rejection notices from publishers and magazines and while they were often form letters they were signed and gave me the impression that someone put even the slightest energy into what I was asking.
In my recent attempts to find an agent I can paper my wall with the empty SASEs I got back, the post it notes with 'no thanks' or something else scrawled on them. I understand how and why the system got to be what it is, but now with the advances in technology and the opening of the markets why would I put myself out there for that abuse?
Even if I were to go down the traditional publishing route, someone would have to approach me--I'm done with that rat race.
No from me too. Years ago I got a very nice advance from one of the big 5. by the time they had taken their money back for cover, illustrations etc I got little or nothing and there was never any question of giving me much say in anything at all!
I'm willing to explore the option. I wouldn't convert my whole backlist (I've written six total novels so far) to traditional publishing...but if a publishing house could get my name out there, so that people were looking for me, then that might be worth letting go of one book for a while.
hell yes. but if they wanted me to market, the advance should cover me hiring someone (marketing & advertising isnt in my skillset). i'd grit my teeth and accept whatever bs they wanted to make my work more mainstream... i wouldn't like it but they're paying me so don't bite any hands right? :3
An offer would be both flattery and validation for sure. Still, I don't think - well, it'd have to be a hell of an offer...Like others here, what could they do for me that I'm not doing now on my own dime.
Steven wrote: "An offer would be both flattery and validation for sure. Still, I don't think - well, it'd have to be a hell of an offer...Like others here, what could they do for me that I'm not doing now on my..."
I think the biggest thing for me is that time = money = time. So, I agree with the "what could they do that I'm not doing now" thing, but with a caveat: If they could do it at least as effectively and NOT COST ME TIME, then it might be worth the decrease in royalties/control. It would be something to consider.
I wouldn't accept a contract purely for the validation - I refused three contracts (that were non-negotiable), so I know my work is commercially viable enough to be interesting to a publisher.My main problem were the inhibiting clauses is the boilerplate contracts I was offered, that would restrict me in writing my series.
Since then, I wrote a standalone novel that I would put out through a publisher, as it's meant to stay a standalone. So if it bombs, I'm not risking a whole series.
I think it could be beneficial to be a hybrid author - to have some work published so readers can see you're a bonafide author, and self-publish to show that self-publishing does not equate amateurism.
@J.D.To me the question is, what do I gain when publishing with a publisher?
Personally I do not know a single author, who suggested a cover and his/her publisher accepted it. That was a question which was of personal interest do me. I thought that maybe we indie authors are so biased to our own ideas that an outsider would know better (and after all, it's only the cover not the content). Indeed, I changed my book cover last year and I was very successful with that move. However, none of the authors that I talked to felt that the cover the publisher elected did any good.
Plus, as long as you own your rights you can always sell, in the future.
J.D. wrote: "My question for the other self publishing authors is would you go traditional if you were given that option?"You actually summed up a good portion of my answer when you said, "The larger part, however, is that I love the control I have. Everything is on me. I'll be as successful as I want to be."
I love being in control of my writing. Everything about everything I do is unorthodox and I'm sure very few publishing houses would give me the time of day. And by very few I mean zero unless there are one or two out there that are lunatic desperate to take a huge risk.
To be traditionally published, I would have to begin to write stuff that is more mainstream and more likely to sell. I don't see myself going that route right now.
Or.
I would have to become successful enough as a self-published author for them to know they could actually make a profit off my material. And by that time, what's the point?
I honestly cannot come up with a scenario in which I would be willing to be traditionally published at this point. I'm happy doing things my way. I'm happy having total control over the whole thing.
I'm another control freak. That's not to say I wouldn't be flattered if I was approached by a publisher but with my last book I didn't even approach one. Previously I was asked to send the full manuscript three months after I had submitted a query letter and then it took another four months for them to reject it. More power to the author I say!
J.D. wrote: "well, not counting the complete lack of responses, I got one from an agent basically telling me to pursue another career :P Now, I love my own work but I'm willing to admit I'm not exactly unbiased..."The loveliest rejection letter I ever got was from Crayola Kids magazine. I had written a query letter in the voice of a cheetah I'd met, offering to do a piece on cheetahs and to send them pix taken from my best side. The kind editor wrote back to tell me that they'd recently done a piece on cheetahs ("Perhaps they were relatives of yours," she suggested), and asked the cheetah to tell that nice Margaret Welwood that she'd keep my query on file. Then she signed it--in green crayon!
Margaret wrote: "J.D. wrote: "well, not counting the complete lack of responses, I got one from an agent basically telling me to pursue another career :P Now, I love my own work but I'm willing to admit I'm not exa..."That's awesome! What a cool story to be able to share :)
Jason wrote: "Steven wrote: "An offer would be both flattery and validation for sure. Still, I don't think - well, it'd have to be a hell of an offer...Like others here, what could they do for me that I'm not ..."
That's the fundamental question, isn't it? What do they do for you? They certainly don't do the marketing for new authors, and I don't think they give out advances like they used to. Editing has always been on the author, as far as I know. It used to get taken out of your advance. I don't know enough about traditional publishing to say what they do for a new author at this point.
Not unless I was offered a large enough advance to cover all of my student debt in a single swoop. That would be the only carrot big enough to make me want to give up the control I have over my work. And that would be a one time shot, and I would try to negotiate to retain as many rights as I could. But, as I'm not even submitting to trad publishing houses I suppose it's a moot point unless one of my books does so well that someone decides to try to scoop me (ha! unlikely!). :-)
Here's a really interesting read that relates to this topic rather well, I think:http://janefriedman.com/2015/02/05/wa...
Like most of what is said, I would not. I love being the boss and writing whatever I want. And self-publishing doesn't carry the stigma it used to thanks to avenues like Kindle. Because of the opportunities Kindle has opened up for unpublished authors, people treat self-published books like traditional ones.I could have papered my entire house with all the rejection letters I received from agents. I'm just so glad that they can't bar my way from being published anymore, and I don't have to read, "Thanks but no". I'm doing just fine all by myself. People like my work and I can pay bills now. So, I'm doing all the work myself just so they can take a big percentage?
I was going to say if they could get me on the top morning shows, I'd probably take their offer for one book, but if you get enough Youtube attention, they'll get in touch with you.
You really don't need agents anymore! Thank Goodness!
I would only consider it if i got a few guarantees. I'd want to retain all rights to my work and they'd have to do all the marketing. If i have to do my own, then it's pointless to go with mainstream publishing.
Jason wrote: "Steven wrote: "An offer would be both flattery and validation for sure. Still, I don't think - well, it'd have to be a hell of an offer...Like others here, what could they do for me that I'm not ..."
Excellent thoughts. I wonder if that is so or will they require even more of my time marketing than I allow myself now.
J.D. wrote: "Jason wrote: "Steven wrote: "An offer would be both flattery and validation for sure. Still, I don't think - well, it'd have to be a hell of an offer...Like others here, what could they do for me..."
Nor do I. Those are good questions.
J.D. wrote: "Jason wrote: "Steven wrote: "An offer would be both flattery and validation for sure. Still, I don't think - well, it'd have to be a hell of an offer...Like others here, what could they do for me..."
At the very least they pay the cost of printing, which can be considerable.
Margaret wrote: "J.D. wrote: "well, not counting the complete lack of responses, I got one from an agent basically telling me to pursue another career :P Now, I love my own work but I'm willing to admit I'm not exa..."@J.D.
Your Crayola Kids magazine story is AWESOME!!!
Here's another thing I've noticed. My wife (EM Kaplan--writes mysteries and fantasy novels) and I have gone to a few conferences and at those conferences traditionally published authors seem to be aloof in many cases (and often flat out look down their noses at us), but self published authors reach out and are always ready to share ideas and experiences. It's like there's this embracing community for self published authors but the traditionally published ones are in competition. Since I've started self publishing I've met a lot of other authors in my same situation. We share honest reviews, do interviews, blog and tweet about each other, and share marketing ideas AND efforts—and that's wonderful.I guess I'm talking myself out of jumping to traditional publishing. Not that it's an issue, of course. It's just a mental exercise :)
What is your most challenging aspect of being a self published author ?
Marketing definitely. I'm a writer. I'd rather be writing than self promoting. But it's part of the work that has to be done and I get out what I put in so it's more than worth it.One caveat: my wife and I both have marketed insanely in the past but currently we've decided to ease up a bit on that and concentrate on writing. We both feel that having more books on our 'shelves' will make a bigger difference than marketing a single book to excess.
If I had a dozen books finished, and a traditional publisher was interested in one of them which was not part of a series, then I would try traditional publishing for the experience of it.
Hmmm. But wouldn't you feel uber special just before you said, "Nah."
@MelissaOh yes, definitely :)
If you'd asked me 20 years ago if I'd ever turn down a publishing offer from one of the big publishers I would have laughed until I cracked a rib, fainted and hit my head. My how the times have changed...
I certainly like the control one has as a self-publisher J.D. I also like the better sense of reality. Meaning, an agent's intern (grrr) told me after 20 chapters she just wasn't that interested in the characters of my first mystery.But almost all of the reviews from readers on Amazon specifically point out just how interesting and fully painted the characters are. So there you go.
Of course, when all is said and done, the acceptance of a publishing relationship would depend on the deal. But I am dealing with mass-market fiction not a more niche topic which I think is easier to publish and sell on one's own.
I'm with Martin V. I think it would be interesting to be a hybrid author. I would never hand over all my works, but there are some, maybe a whole series, I'd be willing to write for a publisher while still working on other things and publishing myself. It really depends on what they could do for me, i.e. getting my work into places I can't, promoting it a little more. It would be an interesting experience to say the least and then maybe my husband would take it seriously lol.
When I finished my first book I went with PublishAmerica to have it published. While they aren't traditional and more of a Vanity Press, the horror's I went through with them were enough to make me skeptical for any traditional and non self-publishing companies.Don't get me wrong, I've since wiped my hands clean of PA and have also since re-published my first book with Createspace but would I go down the traditional route if offered a chance? I would say I would consider it but I would need to really evaluate them as a whole and really ponder my future. At best I would at least have one book traditional and keep being a self-published author if that would be possible.
J.D. wrote: "Here's another thing I've noticed. My wife (EM Kaplan--writes mysteries and fantasy novels) and I have gone to a few conferences and at those conferences traditionally published authors seem to be ..."J.D., how do they look down on self-publishers? Would they talk to you until they find out you're self-published, then the conversation is over? Do they feel we're not as good as they are?
Yeah, more or less. Sometimes condescension, sometimes dismissal. No hostility or anything and it was usually subtle.
Renee... I'm with you!It's the "being taken seriously" that most bugs me!
From what I have seen a lot of books published traditional fall short off the mark! Just because 'they' say they are good does not make it the case! :)
I have to say though (to answer the question) that yes I am going to approach traditional agents for my next one. The reason being it is a different genre, with mass appeal, which I intend to publish under a different name.You never know...
Renee wrote: "I'm with Martin V. I think it would be interesting to be a hybrid author. I would never hand over all my works, but there are some, maybe a whole series, I'd be willing to write for a publisher whi..."I think it's also that you can cross-over by being a hybrid author. People who generally steer clear of SPA would want to read all your titles, not just the Traditionally Published titles, so you'd get more exposure than being either one or the other.
Vanessa wrote: "I have to say though (to answer the question) that yes I am going to approach traditional agents for my next one. The reason being it is a different genre, with mass appeal, which I intend to publi..."Best of luck with it, though a lot of writers who wrote well, whose work was in a genre with mass appeal, got plenty of declines.
It all depends on if an agent likes it, and should the first happen the acquisition editor it gets forwarded to likes it.
R.F.G. wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "I have to say though (to answer the question) that yes I am going to approach traditional agents for my next one. The reason being it is a different genre, with mass appeal, which I..."I agree - my chances are slim! But, luckily I know how to get it out there anyway. I would just love to see it in hardback :)
I want to be hybrid!I'm very new to it all - my book has only been out three weeks. So far I've had a brilliant time and there's a lot about doing it this way that I think I would much prefer. I like having cover approval (I write historical and it matters to me quite a bit that no-one goes and puts my early Tudor heroine in an 18th century gown, etc). I like making strategic decisions about pricing, categories and blurbs, because I write for a very specific audience and I've made it my business to try to understand the audience as well as I possibly can. The marketing and promotions takes ages but I suspect it would be just the same if I was trade published.
The main negative for me, though, is that while my book has been selling well so far I've had trouble reaching certain audiences that would have been much easier to access if I was with a publisher. I write historical for teenagers and because my book relates closely to part of the National Curriculum at UK schools for that age group, I think I would have made a fair few sales to school libraries, but they normally order their books by going through publishers' catalogues and school library review journals (and public libraries are big buyers of YA historical as well). And of course a lot of books are sold in bricks-and-mortar shops.
However, I don't much fancy the idea of being JUST trade published - imagine the stress of not knowing if your latest book was going to be acquired or not, and the frustration when it wasn't, especially if you knew you had readers out there who would buy it. Hybrid seems to make total sense to me as an ideal. The visibility in bookshops and libraries would increase sales of one's self-published titles while the flexibility and speed of self-publishing would help maintain the relationship with one's readers.
Even if I manage to get a deal for the next book (touch wood) I will be self-publishing the sequel to my first one (no publisher is going to touch a sequel to a book they didn't publish, anyway) and would be quite happy to have the two strands running in parallel. With things the way they are in the publishing industry, it's good to be flexible.
Funny, my debut novel is called HYBRID! Works for me...Yes, I agree with Katharine. Especially since Waterstone's slams the door in the face of anyone published with createspace. They'll do day events, but they claim they can not order the books! Who knows.
They sold my book in a Literary festival and I'm still waiting for payment 6 months later. It was a waste of time.
Without a publisher they do not take you seriously if you are SP :(
Katharine wrote: "I want to be hybrid!I'm very new to it all - my book has only been out three weeks. So far I've had a brilliant time and there's a lot about doing it this way that I think I would much prefer. I l..."
@Katherine,
I don’t know if this helps since you live in the UK, but you could try. In 1988, I self published a children’s book (early childhood education). I hung out in teacher’s chat rooms and partnered with a bookstore that did book fairs in schools, and the book sold almost by itself. Then, unfortunately, George Bush put his not too much beloved NCLB into action and my heydays were over; from then on school districts purchased and not individual teachers. As a single mom I could not travel and visit school districts. [Side note: Scholastic did very well then.]
In my despair I discovered the homeschool market. If you are familiar with the US school system, you know what it is. Parents, who are dissatisfied with the traditional system, for whatever reasons (mostly religious). From my own experience I can tell you that home schooling parents will spend a fortune on books because they don’t buy video games etc… It is a market to explore. Since I was born in Vienna, of course I know that you Brits have a fabulous school system, well-known for its quality but still, I’d try to find out if you have a home school market, maybe you can use it to enter the school book market through the backdoor. Many teachers read homeschool magazines and such.
@Vanessa: I think the book issue is that even though Createspace gets the titles into Ingrams, the stores have to buy it up front. With the traditionally published titles they get the books and pay on the sales end, returning (or destroying) what they don't sell. Barnes & Noble will allow customers to special order our books but they have to pay in advance for the same reason. As much as I don't like it, the explanation matched up with my own experiences working in bookstores when I was younger.
Now, I usually say that it's impossible to really know. Part of me says yes--I grew up during a time when the big pub houses were more than just a vehicle to getting books out, they also provided marketing, editorial services, signing bonuses and other author support. I was in the UofIllinois creative writing program in the 80s and at the time the only alternative to the big pub houses was small vanity presses and honestly, everyone I knew considered that "giving up"
But another part of me says 'no'. A bit of that is sour grapes I'm sure. I, like any other aspiring author, can tell hours of horror stories of bad experiences with agents. I resent that they are the gatekeeper to my dream. I understand how it came to be, but I don't like it.
The larger part, however, is that I love the control I have. Everything is on me. I'll be as successful as I want to be. I've met a number of traditionally published authors that have had their books unlisted and can't get their rights back. I've talked to others that say that nowadays they're expected to do all their own marketing, editing and that there is little to no support for authors unless you're one of the big name authors like Stephen King or whoever.
Given the changes in technology it's possible to publish completely--ebook and physical book--at low or no cost. So what's the gain? That my book can be purchased in a brick n mortar store like Barnes & Noble? (because it's publish on demand through Createspace, they won't stock the book and require special orders to be paid up front)
My question for the other self publishing authors is would you go traditional if you were given that option?