Buddy Read: The Age of Innocence

[Rosemarie, Northern Roaming Scholar]

Just click on this link, Nora: Ouida. It will give you info about the author.

[Nora]

Thanks so much for sharing this link with me, Rosemarie! :))

[Rosemarie, Northern Roaming Scholar]

Any time!

[Nora]

I just started Chapter 6 and the author has made some more problematic commentary about "Primitive Man" and "Savage Bride" which I'm finding unsettling.

[Cleo]

Nora wrote: "I just started Chapter 6 and the author has made some more problematic commentary about "Primitive Man" and "Savage Bride" which I'm finding unsettling."

I'm wondering if it might help if, instead of reading these descriptions literally, you read them as comparisons or metaphors, etc. Wharton (as you are so clearly pointing out with some of your comments) is brilliant at these descriptions which point to something else in the story but evoke strong feelings and reactions. It definitely makes the story more powerful!

[Nora]

Cleo wrote: "Nora wrote: "I just started Chapter 6 and the author has made some more problematic commentary about "Primitive Man" and "Savage Bride" which I'm finding unsettling."

I'm wondering if it might hel..."

I’m sorry but I’m afraid I can’t do that since it’s upsetting and disturbing. I can’t accept them as comparison and metaphors because they are a part of history. Also, I will kindly ask you to keep your comments about my comments to yourself. I will not suppress my thoughts on what I feel is wrong about my country’s history.

[Bella (Kiki)]

Nora wrote: "I have read the first two chapters as well and I was very surprised that Edith Wharton is racist towards Native Americans. I also love The Buccaneers and The House of Mirth that were also written b..."

I used to sing in the opera in Italy, having trained for six years to do so, but I'm way too introverted to do that long-term, and while I love singing, I didn't like the costumes.

I don't like books with any kind of intolerance or cruelty in them, but intolerance and cruelty were part of society in New York, and other places, at the time (unfortunately, it still is, but I don't want to debate that), so I think Wharton wanted to be reflective of reality. I find the title ironic because the only person who is really innocent is Newland Archer. At the beginning of the book, he doesn't realize what hypocrites the people who make up New York Society are. May is quite innocent, too, I guess. Sheltered is the word I would use for her, though. She's so extremely sheltered that she's ignorant of much of the hypocrisy that goes on in society and in her own family. I like May, despite her naivete. I wouldn't have fallen in love with Ellen over May if I were being logical, but love isn't logical. We fall in love with people not because they are nice or kind or courteous, etc., but because we see something in them we connect to. I don't think logic has much to do with love. Maybe with love's end, but not with its beginning.

[Nora]

I’m so sorry but I’m going to stop doing this buddy read because I’m too bothered with the book and the fact that I am being criticized by a member and a moderator.

[Cleo]

It's unfortunate that you feel that way, Nora. I was trying to have a discussion, to offer some alternative perspectives and help you feel less unsettled by what you were reading. The intent was never to criticize and I didn't feel anything the moderator said criticized you either. One has to respect that others may feel differently than you do and I was completely open to hearing your thoughts.

As for racism, I think that it's readily apparent that no one is going to condone it, if it's there. But it's very unfair to judge people with so little evidence, evidence using descriptions that were used for literary effect and NOT as a statement of the authors views. Not to mention, the author is dead and is not here to defend herself. I would hope we would have a little more respect and grace for a person than to pass such harsh judgements with so little to go on.

In any case, perhaps the book is not for you and you're wise to shelve it. We all have books that we don't connect with and when it's time to move on, it's good to recognize it. Good luck with your future reading!

[Cleo]

Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Nora wrote: "I have read the first two chapters as well and I was very surprised that Edith Wharton is racist towards Native Americans. I also love The Buccaneers and The House of Mirth that were a..."

Wow, you sound like you've had an interesting life. I remember being in Venice and seeing a man singing opera in a square. I was mesmerized! You must have an amazing voice.

Unfortunately, intolerance and cruelty do not go away. At best, they can only be managed either for better or worse. It's interesting that you find Newland innocent. Wharton mentions that he travelled to Europe and I believe she hinted that it was something out of the ordinary for New Yorkers (men) of his time. I thought that the even small exposure to European values was percolating within him and Countess Olenska was the match that lit the fire to them. I wonder how he would have reacted if he had never had that exposure to European values? I like May also and don't understand Newland's attraction. But your thoughts on love and attraction are perceptive and I would agree. Hopefully the physical attraction ripens into a deeper kind of love but I find often when it mellows the attraction can mellow as well ...... generally.

[Bella (Kiki)]

Nora wrote: "I’m so sorry but I’m going to stop doing this buddy read because I’m too bothered with the book and the fact that I am being criticized by a member and a moderator."

I'm sorry to see you leave the discussion, Nora. I think the overarching theme of this book is whether to follow our societal group or go our own way. To showcase that theme, I think Wharton had to expose the cruelty and bias that was a part of New York high society. I think she had to be true to the facts. But, if the book and the discussion upset you, then I agree, it's probably better not to read it. I'm not trying to tell you what to do or even hint at it. You have to do what's best for you.

[Bella (Kiki)]

Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Nora wrote: "I have read the first two chapters as well and I was very surprised that Edith Wharton is racist towards Native Americans. I also love T..."

Thank you, Cleo. I did enjoy my time in the opera but in general, I'm so introverted that it was really difficult for me to sing in front of so many people, especially when I had to sing a solo. Mind numbingly scary for me. I've never liked being the center of attention. I like to fade into the background. LOL

After thinking about it last night, I don't think Newland is innocent. I think he grew up maybe innocent of the cruelty that was a part of New York society, but certainly, he's aware of it now. But, as you pointed out, he traveled, so he would have been more aware than the others of what's going on.

[Nora]

Cleo wrote: "It's unfortunate that you feel that way, Nora. I was trying to have a discussion, to offer some alternative perspectives and help you feel less unsettled by what you were reading. The intent was ne..."

I asked you kindly to keep your comments about my comments to yourself . I love Edith Wharton! How dare you say that I have been disrespectful to her! Just because I had a hard time with this book doesn’t mean that I don’t love her other writing!

[Rosemarie, Northern Roaming Scholar]

Nora, it's too bad when a book is difficult for the reader. I've had that experience and know how you feel. Nora, I think you know yourself best-and you deserve respect for standing up for yourself and being honest about how you feel.

[Nora]

Rosemarie wrote: "Nora, it's too bad when a book is difficult for the reader. I've had that experience and know how you feel. Nora, I think you know yourself best-and you deserve respect for standing up for yourself..."

Thank you so much for saying this, Rosemarie. It means a lot to me. I’m sorry for what I said. I just feel very passionate about books and authors.

[Rosemarie, Northern Roaming Scholar]

So do I! I love books and respect authors, even if I don't always agree with the contents of the books, I admire their talent.
One of the most powerful books I've read is Ethan Frome by Edith Wharton.

[Nora]

Rosemarie wrote: "So do I! I love books and respect authors, even if I don't always agree with the contents of the books, I admire their talent.
One of the most powerful books I've read is Ethan Frome by..."

I have always wanted to read that book as well! I love books and I respect authors so much too even if I don’t always agree with what they have written.

[Lesle, Appalachain Bibliophile]

Nora wrote: "I love books and I respect authors so much too even if I don’t always agree with what they have written...."

I totally agree Nora! Most Authors amaze me. I could never produce the feelings they do when I read a really great book that lingers with me for days.

[Nora]

Lesle wrote: "Nora wrote: "I love books and I respect authors so much too even if I don’t always agree with what they have written...."

I totally agree Nora! Most Authors amaze me. I could never produce the fee..."

They amaze me too, Lesle! I love how books create such powerful emotions like that.

[Cleo]

Nora wrote: "Cleo wrote: "It's unfortunate that you feel that way, Nora. I was trying to have a discussion, to offer some alternative perspectives and help you feel less unsettled by what you were reading. The ..."

Well, you did call her a racist, lol! But I'm glad to know you've had better experience with her other books. She is indeed a fine writer..

[Cleo]

Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Nora wrote: "I have read the first two chapters as well and I was very surprised that Edith Wharton is racist towards Native Americans. ..."

You express yourself well, so I wouldn't have guessed that you're an introvert. I know the feeling of terror of standing before a group of people who are expecting something of you. I was SO shy and very introverted until I was about 24 and then something changed and I made up for lost time, lol! But I would say now that I'm both an introvert and an extrovert. I love people and find them so interesting, but I also like time to myself. I do hope you still sing, even if it's only for yourself. A talent is something to be used and enjoyed!

I'm interested in what you find cruel about the New York society (am I right, that you've read this book in its entirety already?) I find that in The House of Mirth there is definitely cruelty and alienation but for me, it's not so apparent in this book.

I find Newland very self-absorbed. He tends to only think of himself. I wonder if this has something to do with growing up (it appears) with only a mother and a sister so he must have been considered the "man of the house" quite early. I believe Nora mentioned that he had a bigger space in the house than both his mother and sister. I suspect that he was catered to often, but I wouldn't want to speculate too much as I don't believe Wharton emphasizes this in her writing. It's something to consider though .....

[Nora]

Just when I think it’s safe to return to the buddy read, I get laughed at for having guts to stand up for myself.

I think I am going to cry myself to sleep and listen to “What Was I Made For “ by Billie Eilish on repeat.

[Bella (Kiki)]

Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Nora wrote: "I have read the first two chapters as well and I was very surprised that Ed..."

Thank you, Cleo. I still sing, but in a choir now, and I don't mind being the soloist in that. But standing on an empty stage, with 2,000 pairs of eyes on me, no thanks! LOL

I find some of the characters in the book emotionally cruel to those who don't conform to their standards. They think they are "high society" and the ones beneath them socially, they can't be bothered with. But that was New York society at the time. It's a reflection of the times and the social strata, so it doesn't bother me at all in the book. I think Newland is confronted with a choice: Does he go along with what society dictates, or does he go his own way?

[Cleo]

Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Nora wrote: "I have read the first two chapters as well and I was very surp..."

I'm glad to hear it. I have a friend who is an amazing artist (she illustrated a book and was contracted by the Smithsonian to draw some type of mouse for their book) but she rarely draws and paints because of her work. I always feel sad that she has so little time to use her talent.

I think you've hit upon something important here: what is good for an individual person vs. what is good for a group/community/society. I'm not sure where Chad and Nidhi and Nora are in the book so I won't say anything more but it's worth thinking about.

[Nora]

Nora wrote: "Just when I think it’s safe to return to the buddy read, I get laughed at for having guts to stand up for myself.

I think I am going to cry myself to sleep and listen to “What Was I Made For “ by ..."

Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Nora wrote: "I have read th..."

I have stopped reading the book because you have created such an unwelcoming environment which is really too bad. I would rather have an open and welcoming discussion where other people are respectful of others instead of laughing at them and making them cry themselves to sleep. I guess that was too much to ask of you.

[Bella (Kiki)]

Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Kiki (Formerly TheGirlByTheSeaOfCortez) wrote: "Nora wrote: "I have read th..."

I think I'm a little farther along in the book than you are, but I don't know, of course, so I'm hesitant to explain further what I feel about Newland and Ellen and Newland and May. I don't want to spoil anything.